Does my ex deserve to be forgiven?

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

That is not really an appropriate question. Maybe we think we are qualified to be the judge of that. But never having lived in the body or mind of a Borderline, perhaps we are not objective enough.

The old Proverb goes: "Never criticize a man until you've walked a mile in his moccasins"

Maybe forgiveness is not about them at all. Maybe it's a gift we give ourselves.

What do you think?

[Moselle]

That is not really an appropriate question. Maybe we think we are qualified to be the judge of that. But never having lived in the body or mind of a Borderline, perhaps we are not objective enough.

The old Proverb goes: "Never criticize a man until you've walked a mile in his moccasins"

Maybe forgiveness is not about them at all. Maybe it's a gift we give ourselves.

What do you think?

[valet]

I think that this is a very personal decision and should not be approached lightly.

We can forgive if we are able to. But it is not a requirement.

Why do you ask?

[Moselle]

I ask because someone I really respect asked me yesterday "Have you forgiven her?"

I said " No"

He acknowledged the difficulty  but also said: for your own health I suggest you try.

Instinctively I think I need to detach from the resentment but how do I forgive such a vicious, dangerous human being who continues to damage my children?

[Sadly]

This is such a difficult one, I think there are as many shades of grey as that damn book. Forgiveness is hard.
I forgive my BPD man because he is mentally ill.
I don't forgive my grandfather for raping me as a young child yet apparently he had shell shock from being blown up in the trenches and was mentally ill.
I struggle with forgiving my father for drinking himself to death and being mentally ill when my mum was dying of cancer. I don't forgive God for taking the sweetest lady in the world from us with a horrid lingering death. Is God mentally ill. I don't know the answers to forgiveness but it's interesting.

[heartandwhole]

Maybe forgiveness is not about them at all. Maybe it's a gift we give ourselves.

I think this ^ is right on. If forgiveness means to "give as before," as I've heard it said, then it's about unshackling our hearts and letting them love again and to give of ourselves in a non-defended way. In my opinion, while forgiveness seems to be directed toward the person who hurt us, it's more about relieving us of the attachment—the one that is maintained through resentment and hurt.

In your situation, Moselle, I would allow yourself lots of time to process your feelings. I don't think you can rush forgiveness, and sometimes with time and detachment, it sneaks up on us without any real effort. I'd encourage you not to put pressure on yourself about it. Keep working through your feelings and boundaries and focusing on your and your kids' wellbeing.

Maybe just allow space for the idea of forgiveness—for yourself, for pwBPD—to come sit on your shoulder for awhile, and see what happens.

heartandwhole

[lightworker68]

I forgave my BPD ex again and again, it lead me into the cycle of continuing the distructive and painful relationship for four years.  I guess the difference is knowing when you can forgive and walk away, forgive and work through the illness if you felt that was possible... But  its also about not condemming yourself if you cant forgive and work through it.
I agree totally that ultimately forgiveness is about freeing yourself and not holding bitterness, resentment and grudges, they add to the wounds, they stop you recovering, growing.

Which is extremely difficult when you have been traumatised by the relationshipt.  I have had no contact for 2mths, I have seen him on 3 occasions, passed by him whilst driving in the car.  I am filled with a mixed emotion of panic, sickness and grief all the same time. All i know is that if I dont forgive him for what hes put me through, I will hold onto those emotions and they will continue to make me ill as the relationship did.

[OutOfEgypt]

Forgiveness doesn't necessarily imply restoration of relationship.  Those are two different things.  The question is really, "Can I and will I stop holding this offense against them?"  As Moselle pointed out, it isn't necessarily for them.  It certainly helps us, but it is a good thing overall.  Forgiveness is also not a one-time thing.  It is both a process and a disposition.  It takes time, and it is a committed attitude to let go of offense whenever it rises back up.

One of the hardest (but required) ingredients in forgiveness is identifying with the offender.  When anybody does serious wrong to us, it is easy to think of all the ways they are different from us.  "I can't believe they did that.  I would never be like that!"  They cease being three-dimensional people and become one-dimensional caricatures, essentially only a living-breathing embodiment of their flaws and what they did to us.  But they are people.  My ex is a person -granted, she's a person that causes a lot of pain and destruction for a lot of people, and one I'll never allow back into my personal life, but she's a person.  She was once a little kid who had hopes and dreams.  She has fears and longings.  She has sin like any of us.  In fact, who am I to demand that she change so drastically and so quickly, as to stop being a destructive person, when (if I am honest with myself) it is so hard for me to even change myself about anything?

The idea of forgiveness also comes a bit easier when we realize that we actually don't have the moral right to hold onto the offense.  Anger is very self-justifying, but that doesn't mean holding onto offense is ever right just because it feels right.  But there is a time for it, too.  It doesn't come overnight to let all of that go.

[valet]

I ask because someone I really respect asked me yesterday "Have you forgiven her?"

I said " No"

He acknowledged the difficulty  but also said: for your own health I suggest you try.

Instinctively I think I need to detach from the resentment but how do I forgive such a vicious, dangerous human being who continues to damage my children?

I don't blame you for saying no, but I agree with your friend.

It's tricky though. In a certain sense when need a lot of time before we can even hope to approach a concept like forgiveness in an honest way.

This post might help re-frame you're thinking: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=135831.msg1332747#msg1332747

I know it's helped me quite a bit at various moments, and it still does today.

[SWLSR]

No she does not but give it to her any way it will help you with your life.

[Panda39]

Do you still have interactions with her? Do you have children together?  Does she continue to hurt you?  Because I think if the injuries continue it's really hard to forgive.  In my experience forgiveness takes some time away from the situation/person... .some distance. 

I agree with some of the others here.  Forgiveness isn't for her it's really for you.  It isn't about if she deserves it but if you are able to give it.  It's when you can let go of the pain that person has caused and recognize they are an imperfect being that you can forgive.  Forgiveness is a way to let go and move forward.

Forgiveness does not have to be given in person verbally to the person who hurt you/wronged you, it can just be a shift in your heart and forgiveness does not mean you condone bad behavior.

Panda39

[Nyla]

I think it depends on circumstance. I'm newly out of a relationship that took everything out of me. I can only speak for me but hurt and remembering the bad times is all that keeps me from going back right now. Maybe I'll feel differently in a year but that's where I am now. So I think it's about were you at emotionally and how long apart. Still a newbie but this is only how I feel.

[Infern0]

Does depend on case to case

In a lot of cases the nons do have trouble depersonalizing and realizing that a lot of their own anger is less to do with the BPD than they think.

In my case for instance it was two damaged people BPD and codependent and a lot of my anger was because she wasn't giving me what I wanted.

Once I stepped back and realized I was almost as messed up as she was and was running my own manipulation attempts and poor moral choices, I forgave her and myself.

It wasn't personal we just couldn't have been any other way

[FallBack!Monster]

Yup! Forgiveness is for you not for him or her. I forgave my ex after I realized what it is that I was really angry at. You all make and interesting point. We are all needing something when we get into a r/s BPD or not.n another good point mentioned, it depends on the situation. I never forgive someone from my past. Bc I dont think that person deserve it and bc I saw how much of a nothing she was. But my ex, can she help being messed up even with drugs and therapy? No. Well, truth is, that's what I'm working on (100%)

On your own time but I would try to get pass the resentment. Bc I knew anger was going keep us passionately attached and I didn't want that.

[Sadly]

I am still getting pounded by emotion sorrow loss love, all that stuff. I know My existence triggers him and have come round to thinking it would be as good for him if I let go as it would me. One of the saddest moments in our r/s that was a turning point for me as far as forgiveness goes happened a few weeks ago. I for once had turned on him when I was pushed to the end of my tether. I shouted, stop micromanaging my life, stop bullying me, my heart is broken, my head is all over the place, I don't like being in my head right now. For one heart stopping moment all the anger drained from his face. I was looking into the eyes of pure misery and he replied " try being in mine"
Forgiveness flooded me and has remained. No matter how upset he still makes me that one moment of pure unadulterated honesty gave me the gift of forgiveness. Briefly I felt an illness and unhappiness far greater than my own even though I sit here now crying because I am so lost and miserable.

[bus boy]

OutOfEgypt summed it up pretty good. I only heald my self back when I was filled with anger and resentment. I could not let go until I forgave. It's an on going process for me, letting go, forgiving, in order to have peace of mind. I did it for me, not her. I can see how she is still angry. Looks like she moved on with her bf, pushing him into my son's life like he's the father, that stuff hurts but I have learned through forgiving and letting go to keep moving on in life. Yesterday evening was rough but I made it. Forgiving has changed my life. I felt pure freedom and a huge weight lifted off of me when I gave up all hope of us ever being a family, it felt great to let go of something that would only ever bring heart ache and pain, I still felt anger so than I had to forgive, that wasn't easy but I did and that really started the ball rolling for me. As long as I hung on to the slightest thread of hope for us, I was stuck in a quagmire of despair. I love the words I read on here " it's a process not an event" and for me forgiving is part of the process.

[amunt]

Act like you forgived her and open the road for her to come back,
then take your revenge.

You must be bad boy with them, and pay them back in the same coin

[GaGrl]

 Forgiveness is about you and your spiritual/emotional/mental even physical health.

There is a terrific approach toward this , called Radical Forgiveness. I recommend it.

[fromheeltoheal]

That is not really an appropriate question.

Does my ex deserve to be forgiven? may not be an appropriate question, but it's definitely not empowering.

How about:

How will it help me to forgive my ex?

What will it cost me if I don't forgive my ex?

Maybe forgiveness is not about them at all. Maybe it's a gift we give ourselves.

Yep.  I heard a quote that has worked well for me: "Forgiveness is a letting go of what we think someone owes us."

Try settling into that letting go towards someone you haven't forgiven.  There's a lightness to it.

[Turkish]

Recovered pwBPD have said that pwBPD should be held accountable or responsible for their actions.  I feel great sympathy for my ex and what she went through with her FOO, even more so for my mother. Their actions were and are what they are. 100% of the responsibility for their actions lie over there (as do our actions with us).  The ball of Forgiveness,  however,  lies 100% in our courts.  

I recently read a memoir by a child of a mother with BPD. She was relating something incident about her mother to a friend because she was struggling about who was right: her or her mother.  I think she knew the answer,  but was struggling to understand her part in the conflict.  The friend,  a pastor,  said,  "oh,  I'm sure you were right!" and left it at that.  The author concluded this: Being right or wrong has nothing to do with forgiveness.

My ex went out on me while I stayed home to take care of our children.  My mother had us live in such a way that if she were caught,  she'd be in jail (for sure these days) not to mention almost sending me into a coma and causing permanent brain damage when I was 13, not to mention her being violent.  I was "right" in the sense that those things shouldn't have happened,  but then forgiveness has nothing to do with that.  

[enlighten me]

Some people need to forgive as a way of moving on.

I personally dont. Im not holding onto a grudge I just dont see it as neccessary for me to move on. In a way I see it as a pointless task. Like forgiving the rain for getting you wet. I chose to go into the rain. I chose to stay as long as I did and get soaked. The rain just did what it does. There are so many people out there that do what they do. Its our choice if we get involved and its our choice how long we stay.

[enlighten me]

Just a question with regards to forgiveness.

If you do something wrong is it better to be forgiven or to know you have done wrong and are remorsefull of the fact?

This to me says a lot about a persons deeper character.

[Moselle]

If you do something wrong is it better to be forgiven or to know you have done wrong and are remorsefull of the fact?

You have a point. Making mistakes gracefully is a crucial part of this experience and an essential part of learning.

The first ( to be forgiven) is out of our control and if we have wronged someone it is entirely their prerogative to forgive us or not.

The second ( to admit wrong doing and feel remorse) is entirely within our scope of  control. It is independent of whether the other person forgives us or not.

So the second is more important in my mind

How about:

How will it help me to forgive my ex?

What will it cost me if I don't forgive my ex?

Help me
1. I can move on
2. I let go of toxic resentment
3. I feel that if i forgive her, I can be forgiven for the ( one or two  ) things I did wrong

Cost me:
1. Peace of mind.
2. Time lost ruminating about perceived wrongs

Thanks FHTH. Great questions to challenge my cognitive distortions on this!

[enlighten me]

I have been toying with the forgiveness question recently. Not to do with my exgf but with my three year old.

My 15 yo son said 3 yo son only says sorry because he wants something. He isnt remorseful. I had to think about this for a while. How do you answer a jealous teen? My answer was when we are young we havent got a true sense of empathy. This can only come from experiencing things that upset us. The more in common these things are to our experiences then the more we can empathise. If you havent had anyone die then you cant fully empathise but you can partially empathise as you have known loss of something important. As we get older we have more experiences so we are able to empathise more.

Even though son 3 is only going through the motions one day he will join the dots and be able to empathise so his appologese will have meaning.

[valet]

Here's an interesting inversion of the question.

What is it that makes you think that you haven't already forgiven your ex?

[Moselle]

What is it that makes you think that you haven't already forgiven your ex?

Nice re-frame.

1. I am bitter that I am facing the financial consequences of her actions. Lawyers fees, debt she ran up etc.

2. She has and continues to try to destroy the relationship between my daughters and I. Preferring to replace me with an ex-friend of mine as their father.

3. She abused, shamed and controlled me for years. ( I am only conscious of this now)

4. She has affected my career by phoning my employer, swearing at HR  serving me with fake DV's at work etc.

5. She has abused and continues to abuse my children emotionally.

6. She and her BPD mother has spread her lies about me amongst my friends and community. And many seem dumb enough to believe her lies.

7. She continues to harass my family.

8. Any person I date or potentially marry has to realise that I have a mentally ill and abusive ex and will likely become her target as well. I have to educate anyone I marry about BP and I fear that they will just run when they realise all the baggage that I come with.

[valet]

I get your anger.

But it also looks like you've provided yourself a fine list of things to use your ex as a scapegoat for when the reality is that you're bringing this all on yourself.

It's ok to be pissed off. I don't think it's fair to perpetuate our anger just cause it gives us a reason to victimize ourselves. That is not a centered way of thinking.

Could you make a new list? One that searches for the middle ground rather than framing your current life as a biproduct of the drama cycle that your FOO and ex allowed you to find comfort in?

[StayStrongNow]

Moselle, wow she has certainly brought on some severe agony and pain in your life and daughters life, I am so sorry this has happened to you. Very serious stuff. I can relate to the intensity of many of these horrific actions of hers. Your anger is working its course with you and essential for your future healing. This may not be the right season for forgiveness now.

I would like to add to the post about my take on forgiveness and perhaps just another nons opinion to think about once you arrive at that season of forgiveness.

If she doesn't ask to be forgiven then she doesn't deserve to be forgiven.

But I agree with many here, it's not about them, it's about you, us. If she doesn't ask to be forgiven then whether she deserves it or not is moot. For me to really get over the hurt the more I learned about BPD and the emotional handicap they will bear in their lives in the future to me warrants sympathy. They're screwed, no sugar coating it, there is no cure only remission. That is sad no matter how bad they were to us.  

So forgiveness was essential for me to move on. I feel a sense of graduating from bpdfamily university since going through this in my mind. My last post is where I am at now:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=298560.0

I have my favorite quote I like about forgiveness, it's as follows:

 "To forgive is to set a prisoner free and to discover that the prisoner was you."
Lewis B. Smedes

[Moselle]

I get your anger.

But it also looks like you've provided yourself a fine list of things to use your ex as a scapegoat for when the reality is that you're bringing this all on yourself.

It's ok to be pissed off. I don't think it's fair to perpetuate our anger just cause it gives us a reason to victimize ourselves. That is not a centered way of thinking.

Could you make a new list? One that searches for the middle ground rather than framing your current life as a biproduct of the drama cycle that your FOO and ex allowed you to find comfort in?

Valet. Thanks for pointing this out. I woke up this morning quite aware of the victim role I'm taking on this... It was all sitting in my subconscious and your question actually brought it out. My pay off for thinking this way is being able to wallow in self pity and not have to take responsibility for these things.

OK. A more centred and assertive response.

1. I am taking control of my finances and even though it has been expensive to divorce her, I am implementing some plans to generate extra sources of income which, when they have paid off the debt, will continue to generate cash. I would not be setting these things up if it weren't for this divorce so in one way it is a blessing.

2. Although I feel betrayed at being devalued, discarded and replaced by an ex friend, it is not my action and I refuse to feel shamed by her poor choices. I am still my children's father and I teach them healthy skills by example, every time I see them. They will see the difference over time and can make choices about how they live. That is my job as a dad - teach by example and let them choose.

3. I am aware of my shame. I choose to externalised it eliminate it. It no longer controls me like it did before. Those days are over. I chose to leave that relationship because it was toxic.

4. I work hard and effectively. People who really know me, will not buy into her abusive behaviour.  Work colleagues were actually very supportive after both incidents.

5. Even though she treats the children poorly. I am teaching them about boundaries and healthy relationship behaviours. They will have healthier lives than I have had, because they are learning these things whist young.

6. People who believe their lies about sexual abuse do not know me. People who know me have come to let me know that she is saying these things. I know who my friends are. I am developing a thick skin through this.

7. I have an anti harassment clause in my divorce. If she continues,  I will send her lawyer a letter to explain that if it continues, I may take legal action. If she continues I have that option.

8. Any person I fall in love with will accept me for who I am. Love me for who I am, and hopefully be emotionally intelligent enough not feel threatened by my ex.

Is that better?

Thanks again Valet for pointing out this blind spot

[valet]

Haha! Posts like this bring a smile to my face.

Keep the train moving. 

[enlighten me]

Just like to add to your list.

Your friend that betrayed you will eventually suffer the same treatment as you. Karma.

It cost me a lot with divorce and other court cases but I see it as worth it financially to be rid of my ex wife. We can always pull ourselves together to earn that money back.

With everything going on I havent wanted to rush into another relationship. If it happens then they will be aware of my baggage and if they dont like it then theyre not the one for me. You should be able to be yourself in a relationship warts and all not be someone they want you to be.