Gettign so depressed it hard to stand for anythign anymore.

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

So here is an update about what has been happening. Where do I begin. 

Well I am moving again. 18 plus times in the last 16 years or better. I kind of wanted this one but for myself. I am going to be closer to work. My wife could be closer to work if she could decide if she wants to take this new job (yes another new job) or not. She has been so back and forth that my head is spinning. Then expects me to "help" her. I have given my opinion every time but she won't decide. A job that is boring or the new job that will add stress. I said stay away form the stress of you know it will be that way.

I've been under the weather the last several weeks. So I have been out on the couch. (I was in the spare bedroom but she seems to think I will cheat on her some how if I am that far away or something) She won't be affectionate but wants me to be that way. Complains if I am not and pushes me away when I am.

She had a small biopsy on her arm done that started to get a little infected and was told to call the DR office in the morning and schedule an appointment. So she took the day off. Normally I iron her clothes in the evening and make her a lunch and a breakfast before I go to work. I asked if since she was going to be home if I needed to do that. Should have known that it was required. Started to be a bit angry with me for even asking. I in such a rut and depression that I will do all of these needless tasks for her just to get by. I am her slave and I almost think I have a form of Stockholm syndrome where I empathize with my captor.  Many time I think that it will com e to a head and it will be the time I say no. But it never seems to happen. I have a tendency to make passive aggressive remarks then get called out for them. I end up feeling bad for stooping to that level and overly apologize and I am then set even lower on my rung of life.

[Cipher13]

So here is an update about what has been happening. Where do I begin. 

Well I am moving again. 18 plus times in the last 16 years or better. I kind of wanted this one but for myself. I am going to be closer to work. My wife could be closer to work if she could decide if she wants to take this new job (yes another new job) or not. She has been so back and forth that my head is spinning. Then expects me to "help" her. I have given my opinion every time but she won't decide. A job that is boring or the new job that will add stress. I said stay away form the stress of you know it will be that way.

I've been under the weather the last several weeks. So I have been out on the couch. (I was in the spare bedroom but she seems to think I will cheat on her some how if I am that far away or something) She won't be affectionate but wants me to be that way. Complains if I am not and pushes me away when I am.

She had a small biopsy on her arm done that started to get a little infected and was told to call the DR office in the morning and schedule an appointment. So she took the day off. Normally I iron her clothes in the evening and make her a lunch and a breakfast before I go to work. I asked if since she was going to be home if I needed to do that. Should have known that it was required. Started to be a bit angry with me for even asking. I in such a rut and depression that I will do all of these needless tasks for her just to get by. I am her slave and I almost think I have a form of Stockholm syndrome where I empathize with my captor.  Many time I think that it will com e to a head and it will be the time I say no. But it never seems to happen. I have a tendency to make passive aggressive remarks then get called out for them. I end up feeling bad for stooping to that level and overly apologize and I am then set even lower on my rung of life.

[Cat Familiar]

It sounds like you're just existing from day to day without joy or pleasure. I understand. I did that in my first marriage. I even called it "waiting to die."

I'm wondering what keeps you in this endless loop of unpleasantness. I know that it's an easy question to ask and much harder to make a life change, but something, some belief, some attitude is keeping you stuck. It's easy to say that you don't want to upset the apple cart and you know how it is with these volatile pwBPDs--it could be worse--and you've experienced worse.

But truly, is this how you want to spend the rest of your life? What tiny step can you take to find some small enjoyment in your life?

 

[Cipher13]

Cat
I am barely just existing. Few things in my life are for me. I to ask myself that very question as what keeps me in the endless loop. I guess I feel like I am letter her down or something. Or that she can't function without me. 

But truly, is this how you want to spend the rest of your life? ?

This quest though I have been asked a lot by several people. The answer is very simply no. But the work and action to make that a reality is where I am stuck. I must get a weird freaky enjoyment out of being miserable. Last night was a perfect example.

While I was out running a few errands and picking up dinner I get a very harsh text "Sure would be nice if I had a man in my life that surprised me with things and did stuff to make me feel better when I've been having such a hard time in my life the past months. Sure would be nice if he knew what I wanted as a surprise too."
In my shopping cart I already had a couple items I was planning on surprising her with. Flowers & a word search book to relax with.

There were many other text exchanges as I tried to validate her feelings about and towards me. I always remain calm and tactful. At some point her texting was on the verge of "ending the relationship" level. I'm a sorry excuse for a man and a worthless husband that makes her feel so horrible and I never do anything for her and all that.

I am at the freaking store taking back items she purchased and getting items for her at her request. Nothing I do is for any one else but her yet its not enough. Let me rephrase that. I don't do the right things to make her feel loved and important. Just this morning on her way to work she called me to ask if I was actually at work because she saw what looked like my car driving down our road.  I took a picture of my desk and said nope I'm in the office. She wasn't angry or upset but I could definitely tell it bothered her and she was trying to get her brain to believe what I sent her over what her feelings were telling her. This sort of thing takes even more effort out of my life force. what's left barely keeps me moving most days.

[Notwendy]

Cipher- how you are feeling can be in part- because we are doing too much for others, and not enough for ourselves.

I know that cutting back on doing things for your wife can cause conflict that you are not up to facing, but constantly trying to do what she needs to do to feel loved might not be something you can do if she is looking at you to fill an emotional void in herself.

This doesn't mean not doing nice things. It means to do them without trying to do what is not possible.

I dealt with this, and it did lead me to emotional burn out. My H would find something to focus on that I "didn't do and therefore don't love him" but the bar kept getting higher and higher. If I went to the store- I didn't get his favorite drink- so I went back to get it thinking "this will show him I love him". Even with sex. He'd complain I didn't do X, so I did lots of X. Well then it went to "you didn't do Y" or "you didn't do X the right way" and on and on with whatever.

I emotionally burned out. I was also afraid to stop doing things for him. If I didn't cook dinner, he'd have a fit.

So one of the first things my MC said to me was "stop cooking dinner". I was- absolutely terrified. But I knew that I was only doing these things out of fear of his rages, not because I loved him, and he could feel the difference. I feared him, and fear and resentment took over any feelings of love.

I could feel no love for anyone really, until I gave some of that love to me. Iron her clothes and fix her lunch? She's a grown woman. Adults can clothe and feed themselves. Yes, it is nice to do as a favor for someone, but not as an obligation.

Self care is a way to step out of the pattern- a hard step to take, but you are feeling badly- what can you do for you to feel better?

[Cipher13]

Notwendy
I'm curious to learn what happened and how the whole "don't cook dinner" thing turned out. Yeah I can see how that is scary. If that was me hearing that from the MC or someone else I would feel like say back to them "Easy for you to say, you don't have to deal with the outcome and backlash."

[Cat Familiar]

Here's the piece of emotional freedom that you are lacking--and I say this from having been in your shoes and feeling that no matter how hard I tried, it was never enough:

"You're right. I'm a tremendous disappointment. I'm not the perfect spouse you wanted. I lack in so many ways it's impossible to count them. I'll never be the person you imagined I was. You must be unbelievably let down."

Once you can say that to them, and follow it up by only doing the things that consensual reality would deem appropriate for a spouse to do (certainly not iron her clothes or make her lunches--unless as a one-off favor)--then you can regain your freedom.

It's liberating to be able to play the role of "the bad guy" in their psychodrama when in your heart of hearts, you know you're a loving spouse.

And yes, they will throw a fit. But the most important thing is not to give in to unreasonable demands. Otherwise you set up intermittent reinforcement (think of a slot machine) and they will try harder and be more manipulative to get you to do what they want.

[flourdust]

Cipher, you've been posting this same song-and-dance for more than three years.

Why do you post? What are you getting out of it?

[Cipher13]

flourdust
You got me. You called me out. I do not have anyone to talk to about this and vent frustrations to. The few that do don't grasp this kind of situation as well as those that are here.

[KateCat]

One member name for you: "Waddams"

Can you reread his contributions to your threads? He's been hanging with you for these three years, and you won't find better input. Read, and reread, as often as needed.

[Notwendy]

How did not being co-dependent ( starting with not cooking dinner) work? Well as you can imagine, there was an extinction burst.

First, the MC made sure I was not in any danger of physical harm. Yes, the rages were scary, but on the level of a large temper tantrum. Anger, saying mean things, silent treatment. However, if there had been a history or potential for physical abuse, there would have been additional steps to take about that.

Then, I also had to see my part in this. The rages worked quite well for my H. Because of my fear of his anger, he got basically got a servant with benefits- someone to take care of things in the home, the kids, cook his meals, and yes, sex on demand.

Now, what person in his right mind is going to stop this behavior if it gets them attention, service and sex on demand?  Well one that knows better than to do this in the first place, but apparently he didn't. I was rewarding all his behavior.

There is a payoff to this for us too. You know that, or you wouldn't be participating in it. The payoff is a temporary appeasement of the bad behavior, but it is temporary.

The problem on our part is our fear, and there are consequences. We make a change when the emotional cost of our behavior is higher than the payoff. And it is possible that until this happens, we will continue the pattern that works for us too.

Basically Cipher, I hit bottom. I was done. Not necessarily done with the marriage but with this pattern and drama triangle. And I didn't have to really say much, but just act on it.

The rages, the anger, the ST, all kept on going until- well they didn't get the results anymore. Then, my H had a choice. He could have found someone else to engage in this drama with, or he could try to engage me in a different way. It was trial and error. But I had to be able to not be so fearful of the rages which were temper tantrums.

I also saw the alternative- what decades of co-dependency created with my BPD mother. My father in many ways was like you- doing whatever was needed to keep/make mom happy in exchange for a moment of peace. He would enlist us to do the same as if we didn't, no peace. But the result of this is that my mother behaves like a spoiled toddler. Why should she change? She got whatever she wanted by terrorizing us. It worked.

But no more. She tries this with me ( why not, it worked for decades) and it doesn't work. IMHO our relationship is better than it has ever been since I have boundaries, but it took a lot of time and still a work in progress. In all fairness, my H is not like my mother (only traits) but I could see how my co-dependency made those behaviors worse.

So some examples. Once, after a rage over doing something in the evening, I simply made plans for myself and did it on my own. He was outraged because before, I would not have gone to appease him, but the tantrums didn't work.

Mom is much more difficult. She destroys personal property, makes threats. There have been consequences for me for my setting boundaries. Some have been tough, but I can't allow her to treat me like she did.

One hitch to this is that, I had to wait until the kids were older and more independent to actually have some independence myself. My H refused to help with them when they were little. This was very reinforcing, because it made it hard for me to do things and it kept me home. He is more secure when I am home, even if he wants to ignore me. The times I have gone off to do things, I am often questioned if I had an affair. I know this is a fear of his, and if I am home, then I am not having one. (FWIW- I have not ever had one and not given him reason to worry- this is his fear, but when I appease him, it soothes the fear for him)

Now, if he brings it up, I just shrug it off and he then says "just kidding" cause he knows I am annoyed at the accusation. This accusation doesn't "work" like it used to either.

[flourdust]

I do not have anyone to talk to about this and vent frustrations to.

Is the venting helping you?

[Waddams]

Cipher:

At this point, you need to step out of the abuse cycle with her.  Whatever that looks like, if it's just not responding to her, if it's leaving, if it takes divorcing her, you just need to decide to do it.

I think the lack of strength to do it comes from not having any form of selfcare.  You've allowed her to manipulate you into not taking care of yourself.  When you start taking care of yourself, you'll get stronger.  It won't happen until then.  

Loving someone doesn't mean you have to let them hurt you.  Loving someone doesn't mean their well being comes at the expense of your well being.  The concerns over if she can take care of herself, feeling that you have to basically martyr yourself for her, that's bupkis.  If she makes the choice to not take care of herself, let her.  :)on't save her from the consequences of her own bad choices.  You're only enabling her dysfunction right now.  

To step out of the abuse cycle, it's simpler than it feels.  You simply don't respond to her when she treats you abusively.  Those texts you mentioned before are repugnant.  When she does that, don't respond, and don't bring her jacksh*t home from the store.  Be as emotionally bland as possible.  When she yells, name calls, tells you how awful you are, simply say "okay" and separate yourself from her.  Go to the gym.  Go for a walk.  Go read a book.  Go grab a coffee.  Something, just get away from her and go do something for yourself.  Let her react as ugly as she wants, don't JADE, don't try to make her feel better.  Just take care of you.

I know in the heat of the moment, you get a deer in headlights feeling, and just shut down.  The emotions in the moment overwhelm you and you just can't keep it straight in your head how to handle this.  For now, keep it simple.  Just leave and don't respond.  Turn the phone off.  Go exercise some form of selfcare.

As we've all said, nothing changes until you change it.

[Notwendy]

Cipher, what is it about you that drives your part in this?

This has been an interest of mine as this kind of co-dependent behavior has spanned two generations in my family.

I wondered why my father behaved in a similar way with my mother that you do. I questioned his remaining family and nobody could find a reason. They were as puzzled as I was as there didn't seem to be much dysfunction that they knew of.

However, after he died, a relative saw some of his papers from the army and mentioned PTSD. That was the first I had heard this. To me, of course, my father was superman. I knew he was injured in the war and that he recovered. Thinking of him as a younger man, barely a man, almost a boy going through what he did made sense - something like that would cause PTSD.

Just a hint that my mother was getting agitated made him jump to fix this in any way possible. Looking back I see that her being upset caused him to be upset too. He would go into a panic at any distress on her part.  If any of us kids were the cause of this, because they were kids, he would come after us, angry at well. So we had both of them angry. Mom didn't scare me but Dad did. ( even though he didn't hurt me). He was mostly loving, but easily angered and could get very agitated easily- over seemingly small things we did. PTSD would explain that.

A while back a stranger yelled at me in a parking lot. Probably most people would think that person was just being a jerk, but I was unglued- shaking - in a fog, for about 20 minutes. Then I realized that- although I don't have full symptoms of PTSD, someone yelling at me was enough to cause this much of a response in me. This is why, I too, became sensitive to my H's angry moods and jumped to try to fix them, as I responded this way to any anger.

But I was not in danger- not from the stranger or my H. It was my response to their moods that caused me to react like I did. The payoff for appeasing was to rescue myself from this feeling. I only was motivated when I realized that I didn't want to be part of this dysfunctional behavior anymore.

I do say "no" to Mom, and she expresses her displeasure. She still reacts like she does, but it doesn't work with me. Still, after I say no to her, I realize I am still shaking like a little girl thinking I have done a most  terrible thing that my father would not like.

This isn't my H's problem- and this one, I can work on changing. What are you getting out of your behavior? It must be something or you would't do it. Is there something in your past that leads you to this?

[Cat Familiar]

I think many of us nons share similar wounds that we received from previous relationships or our FOOs. In my case, I was made to feel guilty as a child just asking for things that children want, and feel they need. I remember all the girls in my sixth grade class were wearing a particular type of shoe except me. When I asked to get some, I was scolded, ":)o you think money grows on trees?", shamed --my father came into my room and threw the money on the floor and watched me pick it up. This sort of thing happened countless times to the point where I learned to feel guilty just having wants and needs.

People with BPD have a peculiar sixth sense where they know how to poke at our psychic wounds. So all it took were comments like: "You're selfish," "You never think of others," "You're always asking for stuff," "You don't appreciate what you have," etc.

Hearing these sorts of accusations, I would feel guilty and think these statements were true and an indictment of what a terrible person I must be. It wasn't until I started to get stronger that I'd think, "Hey, wait a minute--this comment really seems like projection. He's telling me I'm selfish, but look how he's been behaving."

I got to the point where, instead of merely searching for the grain of truth within those comments, and definitely there were some grains there, I just admitted it. "Yep, I'm selfish." I didn't add the "so what? you are too" part, but I certainly thought it.

My admission disarmed those criticisms and I could objectively think, "Yeah, I'm somewhat selfish in wanting, doing that. But he's labeling me and trying to manipulate me through guilt. I'm not going there."

When he discovered that these criticisms no longer worked, that I'd just agree with him (and be remorseless), he quit trying to guilt me as a strategy.
 

[byfaith]

Hello Cipher,

I hope these posts are helping you. I know they have helped me. My mom and dad divorced when I was 5 1/2. That was back in the summer of 1969. I have "memories" of events that occurred while they were married. In those years I lived with both of them. I believe I created a way of coping with the violence I heard and witnessed. Whatever coping mechanism I created for myself, I am pretty sure carried on through my life.

I always had a fear of my father, though to my memory he never laid a hand on me. I don't even remember getting a whipping from him. The things he did to others though, my mom, his 2nd wife, had a profound effect on me.

But I think there was a foundation laid from birth to the time I was 5 1/2-6 years old. Many things carried over also, my mom has spent a lifetime trashing my father to me.  My dad passed away 18 years ago of cancer, and my mom to this day just won't let it go. I have spoken with my mother maybe 3 times in the past 3 years. I know she brings up my dad to my children... .it is sad.

Anyway the point I was trying to get to... .Any bad or uncomfortable situations that arise I try to avoid them because they feel bad and I believe it goes back to how I handled them as a 5 year old, the stuff going on with my parents.

I remember growing up I always said I would be a better husband and father than my dad ever was. I think that is why I appease the bad behavior at times to try to salvage something and give that small window of satisfaction that the "bad" feelings were sent away because I gave into someones mentally abusive behavior.

Hope that all made sense

[Notwendy]

ByFaith,

I do get what you are talking about. These experiences from our FOO's have an influence on us, sometimes positive and sometimes not. Children also have black and white thinking and we filter them through that.

One thing our MC brought up that was interesting is that two opposite ends of the poles may be similar in dysfunction. Lacking a more balanced maternal role model, I had to imagine what being a good wife/mother would be. I too wanted to be a better wife/mother than my mother was. I knew I didn't want to be like mom, but my idea of "not mom" was the other extreme. She was prone to anger and rages, and I made a point of being compliant and agreeable to a fault. She didn't put up with anything, so I tolerated even hurtful behavior. My idea of a good wife was probably from the movies. I tried to live up to an impossible ideal. Fortunately I did do well in the mom area- as I have a strong and protective maternal instinct. However, my wish to not put my kids through the fighting I witnessed between my parents resulted in me appeasing my H to keep him quiet.

Somewhere in the middle of being like my mother and not being anything like her is probably the closer model of "normal"- but not knowing what that is, we have to learn it. Fortunately through personal T we can.

My H also wants to not act like his prone to anger, critical father and he has achieved that. Unfortunately for him, he has internalized his father's criticism, which is easily triggered any time I say something that he can possibly interpret at criticism. When triggered, he has his fathers hot headed nature, fortunately only with me and not the kids. Not that it is good to do with me either. However, my reaction to his anger- of utter fear ( because it triggered by fears of abandonment by my father- something that was terrifying because I recognized him as the only supportive parent I had. - he didn't have to lay a hand on me, just threaten to withdraw his approval to scare me) would lead me to jump into action to soothe my H.

The key was working on my own fear. The first time I could hear my H, or my mother, rage at me and not be triggered, felt like a miracle. It was then that I knew I could stand up for myself and let them be angry ( this of course includes the absence of physical abuse) and not be afraid of them. This doesn't mean I don't ever get triggered. I do, but I try to keep in mind that the childhood fear is not the present situation.

[Cat Familiar]

One thing our MC brought up that was interesting is that two opposite ends of the poles may be similar in dysfunction. Lacking a more balanced maternal role model, I had to imagine what being a good wife/mother would be. I too wanted to be a better wife/mother than my mother was. I knew I didn't want to be like mom, but my idea of "not mom" was the other extreme. She was prone to anger and rages, and I made a point of being compliant and agreeable to a fault. She didn't put up with anything, so I tolerated even hurtful behavior. My idea of a good wife was probably from the movies. I tried to live up to an impossible ideal. Fortunately I did do well in the mom area- as I have a strong and protective maternal instinct. However, my wish to not put my kids through the fighting I witnessed between my parents resulted in me appeasing my H to keep him quiet.

Somewhere in the middle of being like my mother and not being anything like her is probably the closer model of "normal"- but not knowing what that is, we have to learn it. Fortunately through personal T we can.


You make a good point, Notwendy. I went through a similar thought process. I knew there was something really weird about my parents, and it's taken me decades to really get an overview. I think I've finally figured out what was going on: my mother was BPD and my dad was very high functioning Aspergers. I think that was what allowed him to stay with her for so many decades: he could retreat into his own private world while she raged.

Anyway, I remember watching TV shows of families when I was a very young child and trying to learn how "normal" people related to each other. I watched a lot of old sitcom reruns because it was so comforting to me to see people being nice to each other.

When I was a young adult, I decided that I didn't want children. I knew I'd either parent like my mom or I'd do a 180 degree turn and try to do the opposite; either strategy would be disastrous and I didn't want to subject children to that.

I'm very grateful I made that decision, especially because of who I married--a violent, sociopathic, financially irresponsible, adulterous man. It's taken me decades to mature enough to even think I could be a good parent and now I fulfill my parenting needs by taking care of a menagerie of animals. Thankfully they're all emotionally healthy, other than one scaredy cat who came from a hoarder's house.