Wants my friendship

[Oncebitten]

All

Again thanks for the support.

I have said it several times before, I love her and want to be with her.  But I feel like if I cant be in a romantic relationship with her I dont belong with her.  At least not right now. It sounds so good in theory that too people so close should be friends, we have meant everything to one another for so long.

But despite what I did, am I to revist that pain every time we speak because she is no longer mine?

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[FallBack!Monster]

OB ... .You sound very certain of your feelings? I can't help but to wonder, are you sure she only wants to be your friend? Maybe your ex is using self preservation techniques she's had developed in her life.
 You said you caused her pain. How do you plan to win her back?  What or whicht techniques are you planning to employ to accomplish that task? Or you just just want to strong arm you way in with no other effort?  It is a hard job to force someone to trust you again. You can't try to Flintstones your way back in.

if I were you I would go about it differently. You claim to have screwed up. Have you apologize or ever pretended to be sorry?

I can tell you genuinely care but unless you have acknowledged your wrong to both yourself and her, I don't see how you plan to make her put it aside. Iif you were as happy as you say, how comes you don't know what to do or say to easy back into her head/heart?  Use your imagination. What does she like to hear? What does she like to do?  What's important to her? What did you both do together that kept you both in this tumultuous r/s? Have you spoken to her about your true feelings or are you only venting here? Bc she has to know in order for you to have a chance. Otherwise she can accuse you of being pretentious. .

 Are you afraid she'll reject you if you tell her your true feelings and intentions?

It is a difficult task indeed, however if I shared your passion for my ex, believe me you, I would find a way.and I'd go all out. But that's just me.
Nope! You shouldn't Alway be reminded. But you're fooling yourself if you believe you can rekindle anything without any effort. .
Here's an example, I want a million dollars but I don't want to do anything to get it. I just want it and that's that. Then the universe  says, oh really?  HA!  Put in some work!

Does any of this help?

[Oncebitten]

FBM

I am certain of my feelings.  Only thing that I am sure of in this world.  I have apologized, and I am sorry, truly am.  This isnt new, I have been trying to right my wrongs for 2 months.

She knows my true feelings... .I tell her every day.  Everytime she brings up what I did, I allow her to feel it, to bring the hurt and the pain to me.  And we have days where everything is wonderful and something triggers her and she goes back.  I know that this will continue for a long while, and thats fine I am willing to fight for her for as long as it takes.  Just don't know what to do at this point. 
Do I dare let her go and hope that she comes back to me?  Or do I stay and fight everyday just like I have been, proving my love and dedication to her?

Personally I am a fighter, but thats hasnt worked.

[gresmunkie]

OB

I was/am like you in regard to the feelings for my ex. I too am a 'fighter' and when we split I went to great lengths beyond anything ive ever been willing to for anyone nor would I probably ever do for anyone again, to prove that to her. did it work? no. However about a month after I stopped pursuing/chasing/trying to prove my love etc and stopped communicating, she showed up at my door saying she was still in love with me. IMO if you feel honestly that you have wronged her in some way and sincerely apologized and clearly let her know how you feel about her theres really not much else you can do. the problem for me with staying in contact would be that I would never know that she made the decision to come back on her own, without my influence. if she wants to reconnect I believe she will, although it may take time, but it will be on her terms. from my experience I don't think staying friends will help if you want more than that.  and I also strongly believe in taking care of yourself and making sure you are as strong as you can possibly be for if she does come back to you. it will also help you if she doesn't. good luck to you

[Splitblack4good]

Splitblack

You didn't hijack anything...
Thats the point of these posts to share experiences, in the hope that we all come out better on the other side. Idk the same thing from time to time.  Does she really want me as a friend or am I just supply until she finds someone new.

From my experience and from what you said I would say she wants you to be around at times when there is no one else . They tend to label it as "freinds " .
My ex done this to me before she just used me to babysit while she went out or she would ask me to listern to her problems with my replacement  they don't do it on purpose when they are having a meltdown they just feel comfort when someone they know is there . When they knowingly do it is different and you feel used and invalidated .
When me and the ex split up back in November 2014 and she got with someone else and discarded me she done that to hurt me and admitted it the whole time I wanted to be her freind as a way of getting back together but it pushed her further away . So when I withdrew and stopped any contact the new relaitionship she was in fell apart within weeks . So what I'm trying to say is in your situation is give her space but every now and then just send a nuatral text like Hi hope your ok ? This will let her know your thinking about her but not pressuring her into anything then she may come back to you . If you go NC it may run the risk of her thinking you don't care and moved on .

[Meili]

FBM, I can see that there is a lot of passion in your posts on this thread and your desire to protect OB from what you have experienced. There is a glaring difference between your experience and his however: His ex is looking back and has not walked completely away from him. She still tells him that she loves him and still keeps the lines of communication open.

As we all know, we are a very diverse group of people with very different life experiences. As such, we all have very different perspectives. As I stated earlier in this thread, my experience with "just being friends" is quite different from what most of the posters here are describing. From what I am reading, it appears that the difference is that I accepted that my relationship with my x was over. My desire to have her re-enter my life required me to accept the fact that might never happen. I accomplished this through a period of about six weeks of NC while I started to work on myself. During this time, I watched her date another man. I radically accepted the situation to get through it.

I read here people talking about having hope and the pain that it would cause if their ex started dating another. It isn't the hope that causes the pain, it's the expectation that reconciliation will happen that causes the pain however. By letting go of all expectations, I was able to understand that she is free to do as she wishes in that she had no commitment to me and it is not a reflection on me in any way shape or form. She had relationships before me after all, why should the one that she had with him be any different?

When I pushed and pressured her to make a choice, a relationship with me or nothing, she pushed back even harder. When I stopped, again, as I said in my earlier post, she started to come back. We developed a friendship and started to rebuild trust. We've now gone camping alone together, she took me out with her friends for the first time last night and present the image that we are a couple, and she brought me muffins and initiated a kiss with me for the first time in a about a year this morning.

But, it was only releasing all emotions about the relationship and expectations, and not being attached to any outcome, and completely owning the problems that I created in the relationship and working diligently to change my thoughts and behaviors, that allowed me to get here. Yes, there was a great deal of pain involved in the process. Yes, we have not reached the end of our journey. No, we are not a couple again. No, the situation is not ideal. But, she and I are working on it together. If I had adopted the position that many on this thread have taken, that wouldn't be possible.

I had to, and I can tell you this was the most difficult part, do away with all desires for a quick resolution and reconciliation. I have to give her all the time and space that she needs to feel safe with me again. It has taken my commitment and consistency to see this through and not just give up and walk away that started to rekindle what we once had.

[FallBack!Monster]

I didn't want to say it but Splitblack & Gmonkey said it best. Move on. She's going to use you. She's a pro at it. Doesn't matter if it is intentional or not. There's no benefit in it for you. NC or have someone else do your replies if you don't want her to react to it. My ex is poison to me and to herself. You will soon come to realize the situation your in. I thank my old friend Abee for doing what he does.

[patientandclear]

For a while, I had an experience like Meili's. I was completely non-possessive and my exwBPD and I developed quite a lovely r/ship without expectations or definition. It was emotionally intimate. He defined it as not a couple. So far as I knew he was not seeing anyone else and I did not ask. It just ... .Unfolded, with no pressure. It was all voluntary and all very nice.

Eventually the lack of commitment and lack of overt acknowledgement really worked against me, however. He suddenly moved. He resisted any explanation. He started seeing someone else despite (or because?) he and I had been at a high water mark of closeness. He was breaking unstated bonds of reciprocal feeling that I'm sure were there ... .But there was nothing I could say about it because we were only friends. It was sort of a check mate.

I will not return to a friends scenario because I learned that to him, it means extracting all the benefits of a committed r/ship but without the commitment, which is ultimately a recipe for me to be badly hurt. The first time through, I didn't know that, and trusted in the organic evolution of our feelings. Now I do know how that works in his head, and to return is to basically sign up for that.

Meili's situation and mine are both possibilities, probably influenced by all sorts of microscopic differences in our stories and approaches and partners. It's just not really possible to know how it might go from where you're standing.

[Oncebitten]

Meili

I understand what you are saying and have always agreed with you.  And perhaps I need to back away and go nc for a while.  Honestly since this all happened we have never gone more than a few days without talking.   We haven't given each other any amount of time to heal.

[Notwendy]

Hi OB, I tend to look at behaviors from a reinforcement standpoint. So, you have apologized, yet, she brings this up over and over- and you keep proving your love to her.

And it is continuing- because, well if she has any fears of abandonment, all she has to do is bring up that incident and you jump in to soothe her feelings. Does this make sense as to why she keeps bringing it up? One of the most reinforcing things to people is attention. Bringing this incident up gets your undivided attention, profession of love.

And you keep doing it. I would also be willing to bet that the reason you do this is out of your fear of losing her- so you keep trying and trying. Also, if she approaches you, upset, she is focused on you- you know you haven't lost her yet and so there is still a chance. It works some time, maybe for a little while. Like putting quarters into a slot machine knowing it is possible to hit the jackpot.

Repetitive behaviors can have an additive quality to them.

But there is also some caretaking here. We all have fears and vulnerabilities in relationships. Yes the other person might decide to leave. But we have to manage our fears. People with BPD have trouble with that- and so being a fear soother is great reinforcement.

When will she stop bringing this up? I don't know. But I do know that behaviors tend to continue when they don't work to get the benefits they used to. ( after and extinction burst).

When do you stop reinforcing? When you've had enough of this. You made a mistake, you apologized. There is nothing you can do to erase the past. All you can do is move forward from it. You can take care of your part in this. She can choose to get past this or not. You can't control her choices no matter how hard you work at this.

You, on the other hand, can say enough is enough. I don't want to go through this day after day forever over one regrettable act that is over and done.

[Oncebitten]

Notwendy

So what is my solution then?  I love her and want to be with her.  But we are stuck in this loop, I am willing to apologize and even realize that this could come up months or years from now.  But we are stuck in this place. How do we move forward?
I realize that it is me that has to change my behaviour but what do I do?

[FallBack!Monster]

NotWe, you are just to intelligent for my level of understanding. I only understood the last 2 paragraph but I believe the main point was in the other paragraphs. Do you mind saying it back in English for simple folks like myself?

[Splitblack4good]

Just give her space and time . PwBPD stuggle and are in pain with there emoitional fears that flip flop and change all the time all day and all night sometimes and causes confusion for them hence I hate you don't leave me !  If your constantly trying to contact her she will prob see that as another set of feelings and emotions to deal with on top of the unmanageable feelings she feels already and makes them worse then she will A - not respect you B- start to resent you -C will prob force her to find someone new so there's no threat involved and will ease her pain .
I know it's hard you just want it so bad but trust me back off let her breath send a text every 10 days or something but keep it simple but straight " how are you hope your ok " she prob would see that less pressuring but also keep it consistent but not persistent .
It's your best play right now . She's a person just like us BPD disordered or not you can't force someone into anything they don't want to do .

[FallBack!Monster]

Just give her space and time . PwBPD stuggle and are in pain with there emoitional fears that flip flop and change all the time all day and all night sometimes and causes confusion for them hence I hate you don't leave me !  If your constantly trying to contact her she will prob see that as another set of feelings and emotions to deal with on top of the unmanageable feelings she feels already and makes them worse then she will A - not respect you B- start to resent you -C will prob force her to find someone new so there's no threat involved and will ease her pain .
I know it's hard you just want it so bad but trust me back off let her breath send a text every 10 days or something but keep it simple but straight " how are you hope your ok " she prob would see that less pressuring but also keep it consistent but not persistent .
It's your best play right now . She's a person just like us BPD disordered or not you can't force someone into anything they don't want to do .

Translation, she's not yet done with the current partner. She's not sure if the other one she's working, is going to pan out.

Just be patient. If she finds herself one day lonely and alone maybe you'll be the one she contacts unless someone else does before you do. She prefers new but will settle for the old for a bit until the newest object/fish bites the bate. Just sit tight and wait and see this time around where and how hard you fall. END OF TRANSLATION.

[Splitblack4good]

Translation, she's not yet done with the current partner. She's not sure if the other one she's working, is going to pan out.

Just be patient. If she finds herself one day lonely and alone maybe you'll be the one she contacts unless someone else does before you do. She prefers new but will settle for the old for a bit until the newest object/fish bites the bate. Just sit tight and wait and see this time around where and how hard you fall. END OF TRANSLATION.
   
 harsh way of wording it but true .

[Notwendy]

Hi Fallback- I think the main message is that, if we do something, and get a reward, we will do it again. That's true for all living creatures, not just humans.

So lets say, you have a girlfriend who does something that upset you. She apologizes, swears up and down it won't happen again, professes her love for you. Well, that is sort of OK but you are insecure and wonder if she loves you. Each time you bring it up, well she pays a lot of attention to you, professes her love for you. Well you do it again, and she does the same thing.

Now why would you stop doing this? It works. You are feeling rewarded for your behavior.


OB, the two of you are in a loop. But she has no reason to stop as her part in this is being rewarded.

Let's put this one on the drama triangle. She is a perpetual victim, and if someone is a victim, they are not the one responsible for the breakdown of the relationship. Yet, she has a role in this by not wanting to let go of her position as victim.

If there is to be any change in the loop, I think the one who wants the change has to be the one to change. I don't know any other way.

[Splitblack4good]

I completely agree with SO71. I went through the EXACT same things after my "devaluation." In human terms, after she determined she saw no further reason to treat me with respect. 

In my normal state of mind, I knew she was playing games. She always did live in a fantastic (to her and her friends) fantasy world. Only now (after the fact) she's displaying the turbo version of her gaming. However I would fool myself that there could be "some type" friendship between the two of but no. Once your dumped you're no link the game. Not even to be played. My ex was literally having her friends who are like her and family contacting me, pretending to be her. A whole room full of idiots.  My number was linked to a group of her acquaintances. That's why I decided to no longer feel bad for her. Keep in mind this all the while begging for us to at least remain friends.
ONCEB, here's a good way to know. This worked for me. My ex brain is a messy mixture of a few PDs. None of which live in the now. But all take people lives for granted. Instead of moving on with the other replacements, she'd from time to time hit me up. Listen! I said from time to time. But one thing I'll say, never picked up the phone and called once she left never.
Write down all the pros and cons from past and present interactions with her. Once you add it all up you'll see the offer she's making its just a joke. Who messed up or who broke it off is the least of your problems.

I care about my exs well being, but sooner than later I had to come to terms with the facts. pwBPD only use you after they have discarded you. I  want you to be my friend means, I want to know you on board so that I can stop this exhausting  mind F game with you. That way I can narrow it down to just a few people left to convince. Once I got all my eggs in a row (all exs back on board) I will have free time to seekout  a new attachment. Bc I'm getting tired of faking for the one I'm currently with. So yes, proceed with caution.

Whor ! 

[Oncebitten]

There is no one else.  Its still just me in the picture.  I think I will do a mixture of both options.  I am going to back off and give space, but I will make it known that a friendship alone is not enough

[FallBack!Monster]

FBM, I can see that there is a lot of passion in your posts on this thread and your desire to protect OB from what you have experienced. There is a glaring difference between your experience and his however: His ex is looking back and has not walked completely away from him. She still tells him that she loves him and still keeps the lines of communication open.

As we all know, we are a very diverse group of people with very different life experiences. As such, we all have very different perspectives. As I stated earlier in this thread, my experience with "just being friends" is quite different from what most of the posters here are describing. From what I am reading, it appears that the difference is that I accepted that my relationship with my x was over. My desire to have her re-enter my life required me to accept the fact that might never happen. I accomplished this through a period of about six weeks of NC while I started to work on myself. During this time, I watched her date another man. I radically accepted the situation to get through it.

I read here people talking about having hope and the pain that it would cause if their ex started dating another. It isn't the hope that causes the pain, it's the expectation that reconciliation will happen that causes the pain however. By letting go of all expectations, I was able to understand that she is free to do as she wishes in that she had no commitment to me and it is not a reflection on me in any way shape or form. She had relationships before me after all, why should the one that she had with him be any different?

When I pushed and pressured her to make a choice, a relationship with me or nothing, she pushed back even harder. When I stopped, again, as I said in my earlier post, she started to come back. We developed a friendship and started to rebuild trust. We've now gone camping alone together, she took me out with her friends for the first time last night and present the image that we are a couple, and she brought me muffins and initiated a kiss with me for the first time in a about a year this morning.

But, it was only releasing all emotions about the relationship and expectations, and not being attached to any outcome, and completely owning the problems that I created in the relationship and working diligently to change my thoughts and behaviors, that allowed me to get here. Yes, there was a great deal of pain involved in the process. Yes, we have not reached the end of our journey. No, we are not a couple again. No, the situation is not ideal. But, she and I are working on it together. If I had adopted the position that many on this thread have taken, that wouldn't be possible.

I had to, and I can tell you this was the most difficult part, do away with all desires for a quick resolution and reconciliation. I have to give her all the time and space that she needs to feel safe with me again. It has taken my commitment and consistency to see this through and not just give up and walk away that started to rekindle what we once had.

There's Alway s passion in everything that I do. and yes, our situations is by far very different.

[Infern0]

Just my experience but being friends doesn't work.

Ig they know you have feelings for them they will treat you with disrespect and disregard unless they need something.

If you don't have feelings they will try and get you too.

When they do line a new relationship up you'll be promoted to triangulation guy who she complains too all the time and maybe cheats with.

This is all. A real friendship just isn't possible.

[Notwendy]

Middle- a less reactive stance- is one choice. I think if we go NC, that decision is for our own well being. Sometimes it is necessary to heal. If we go NC as part of the push pull game, then we are playing that game too.

There can be a middle ground to the issue of the one indiscretion that the end of the relationship is blamed on- and that is to be less reactive. But to do so, I think OB has to come to a place of acceptance- that there is nothing left to do and let go of the guilt (part of FOG). The other part of this acceptance is realizing that she may or may not get over this incident- that she has this choice too- no matter what OB does. We don't control how people think or feel.

Then, assuming she doesn't let it go- what is a reasonable "penance" for this transgression? How much of having to apologize for it is enough. I don't know the answer to this.

If you are able to forgive yourself, and know that you have done all you can do, and let the emotion go, you can be less reactive- and less responsive to her bringing this up, without being cruel by not giving it as much of your energy. When she says " I just can't get over this" instead of jumping into action to help her to get over it, acknowledge it while keeping in mind this is her feelings to manage. " Honey, I understand that this was hurtful, and I am sorry you are having this difficulty" Then, the conversation ends. She will push it. Then say "Honey, I love you, and I wish I could change this, but I can't change the past and talking about this more doesn't do that" and the conversation ends. She pushes, repeat it but eventually disengage from this.

You may eventually see this as drama bait. I don't see this as malicious, but sometimes we are baited with emotional statements, because the drama is a form of engagement. It may feel like normal to them. But if we can hold on to our own feelings when we feel baited and be stable and not reactive, it may possibly stabilize the situation. Sometimes, when I feel baited, I am just quiet and don't respond right away. That isn't the ST, I am still engaged, but less instantly reactive.

IMHO- I don't see what you did as infidelity as you were technically broken up. I have known a couple of friends -married couples - who were able to overcome infidelity in their marriage. I know a lot more couples where this broke the relationship up. These are personal friends- so I don't know all the details, but I do know that the couples who worked through it went through counseling and a lot of work on the part of both spouses. If this woman ever does want to reconcile, you might consider counseling together to help with this issue.

[Oncebitten]

Notwendy

Like you said earlier in the post we are caught in this loop and its up to me to find a way out of it.  I have been trying to be less reactive as you suggest and it has helped... .we fight less... .but she stil brings it up regularly.  I understand that this is something that I may have to deal with for a long time and I accept that.   Just want to move forward and not have it be the central issue of the relationship.

[patientandclear]

Seems to me there are three different issues in play: one, reacting to her sense of hurt and betrayal (agree with NW that that is a distorted interpretation); two, being "friends;" and three, whatever issues gave rise to the break in which you got involved with the other woman. On the first, NW has given great guidance. On two, the question is whether you can tolerate the ambiguity. Meili is having a good experience; I tried, but my ex saw other people. That's him, not your person. This is a situational and individual decision that you are in the best place to assess.

The third has not been discussed in this thread. How is it that you two became estranged such that you got involved with the other woman--and are you addressing those issues in some fashion?

[Oncebitten]

I have addressed those issues and have completely removed the other woman from my life.  What I did was a mistake and I admit that, I have apologized for it and it will never happen again.

[patientandclear]

Sorry--that's not what I was asking. I understand that you only got involved with her because you and your pwBPD were broken up. I was asking how that breakup came about. What where the dynamics underlying that, and what are your thoughts about addressing those?

[Oncebitten]

We broke up because she felt that I didn't defend the relationship when someone said something about it.  She the told me that she was going back to her ex and refused to speak to me.  This was the first time she had ever done this.  I see now that she simply sought to provoke and hurt me.  A couple weeks later she contacted me and we have been trying to get back together since.  I see now that in the heat of the moment she says things, things she doesnt mean.  I know now not to over react and to wait. 

[Notwendy]

There is a lesson in this for her too. This is to be accountable for what you say. We may sometimes say things we don't mean in the heat of the moment, but if so, we can apologize- quickly.

By blaming you, she is in victim mode. Yes, you reacted, but she said what she said. In the non BPD world it works like this: people are accountable for their words.

Sorry if this sounds harsh, but it is a reality. People have been fired from their jobs over a rant on social media. We are taken at our word.

Words are important to me and they contributed to the issues in my marriage, and my family. My H would say anything it took to win an argument. Not knowing what was going on, I took these words to heart and they were very hurtful. He, on the other hand, wanted to just forget them, but he didn't apologize, just acted as if he didn't say them. Through counseling, he did apologize, then it was up to me to let them go and eventually I did.

Some things my BPD mother has said has severed family ties between people. It's a whole other topic, but for years she denied saying them, and now, the results of them are apparent now that family relationships are broken and she can't fix this by pretending she didn't mean it.

I know you want your relationship back, and it sounds like you are willing to be the bad guy here for her sake, but in this context, she is taking victim position, and that isn't entirely accurate.

[Oncebitten]

NW

It isn't entirely accurate, she ended it the first time not me.  Yes i should have waited before seeking comfort elsewhere.  But I dont know how to break us from this cycle we are in.

[Notwendy]

Reactivity though is an important lesson I work on. It is one of the ideas in the ACA group I participate in that resonated with me. As a result of personal work, we become "actors rather than reactors."

It made me think about how much control we give others when we react to them, rather than according to our own feelings, boundaries, and values.

She reacted to you by saying she was breaking up and going back to her ex. You reacted to her by meeting up with someone else. In this sense, the initiative is the other person.

However, if we are responsible for our behaviors- then, she broke up with you, and being broken up, you met up with someone else. Neither is really a "wrong" thing to do. You both made decisions.

I learned too, not to be so emotionally triggered by what someone says to me. And it has helped to not be so reactive. I know that BPD is a mental illness that makes this harder to do, but we can work on our end of it  

[Oncebitten]

How do I work through her feelings that I am in love with this other woman?  I'm not, never was, if I was id go be with her but Im not.