why I stayed

[Visitor]

So I was sitting with a female friend one day and the subject of my crazy ex came up. I asked her the question why I stayed with such an individual despite the obvious signs of craziness and she pretty much summed it up in one sentence...

"Visitor, I think the answer to that is in your pants"

As much as we delve into the dark depths of psyche and read through pages and pages of text looking for answers, can we sometimes just say we were thinking with our penis?

[fromheeltoheal]

As much as we delve into the dark depths of psyche and read through pages and pages of text looking for answers, can we sometimes just say we were thinking with our penis?

Well, maybe the men could, and that's an opportunity yes?  Is there a higher level of intimacy and healthy relationship than one that is based solely on sex?  And also realizing that relationships based on sex between consenting adults are completely acceptable, although someone wanting more or thinking it is more is on their way to a great learning opportunity yes?

[gotbushels]

I think there's some truth to what you said Visitor. I've found a handful of cited reasons being "sex" to the "why did you stay" question. If you look deeper though there's usually something there like deep non-sexual needs that we aren't always conscious about. They sometimes don't come out until you start looking deeper. I do think it's hard making that journey with fresh emotional wounds though.

[Visitor]

Oh yes don't get me wrong I've done my fair share of delving into the dark depths of my soul. I consider introspection the silver lining of a BPD relationship. Without it my new relationship would be heading down the same toilet.

Forgive the crudeness and over simplicity of my post. My relationship was testimony to the old adage "crazies are good in bed". If I had of invited a film crew along I could have turned our sex sessions into a 6 DVD porn set and made millions.

I was just wondering how much sex plays a part in our willingness to endure such psychological torture and how much it's over looked.

[VitaminC]

I was just wondering how much sex plays a part in our willingness to endure such psychological torture and how much it's over looked.

I don't know that it's overlooked. And if it does play a huge part, it's because sex is more than the physical gratification for most of us. What happens between two people who are physically intimate is very complex.

I had a strange moment yesterday, where I was listening to some music I particularly like in my car. And I was grooving to it so much, I started to laugh to myself, because I realised it was giving me a buzz, a deep feeling of satisfaction and connection that reminded me of how I felt when I'd had sex with my ex. I made a mental note to think about it later, when I wasn't in traffic. Your post reminded me of it, so thanks!

[pjstock42]

I was definitely guilty of "thinking with my smaller head rather than my larger head" with my BPD exgf  .

I don't think this has much to do with BPD in itself as it is just male nature to sometimes make sacrifices / let things slide in pursuit of the opposite sex. My ex was beautiful and knew how to use her alluring physical attractiveness to get whatever she wants in life and it absolutely worked on me. Of course near the end, she started withholding sex as a passive-aggressive form of punishment/control and that was definitely devastating to my ego.

Speaking of ego/pride, that is a big part of this as well. We as men are conditioned for our entire lives to hold women up on a pedestal and receiving female validation is not only innately important to us but also shoved down our throat by society / media etc. Rap music is a good example and you can see that the ability to conquer women is a type of social currency in today's society. I bought into this more than I should have and I can say that walking around with a gorgeous woman on my arm definitely made me feel pretty great about myself and I now know that this was just me using others to mask my own insecurities.

Beyond the BPD traits of my ex leaving me with the lesson to be more cognizant of red flags and have more strictly enforced boundaries in relationships, I also gained the introspective thinking to look at myself and understand how overly dependent I was on the female validation that I was receiving from my ex. This isn't an easy pattern to break out of, my ego / self-confidence is still at an all time low for the simple fact that this pretty woman whom I loved tossed me in the trash to move onto other guys and that's definitely an injury to my sense of pride. The positive of this is that I now have to face up to my own insecurities as a person and work on them on my own which will lead me to being a healthier person and a better partner for someone else in the future if I decide to pursue romantic relationships again.

[rfriesen]

I don't know that it's overlooked. And if it does play a huge part, it's because sex is more than the physical gratification for most of us. What happens between two people who are physically intimate is very complex.

I agree that it's not necessarily overlooked. I was plenty aware even during the relationship with my ex that we put way too much emphasis on sex. I even told her that several times. It was always our salvation and the place we would bring all our pent-up emotion, tension, frustration, tenderness, longing. And we also had no shame about revealing our deepest, wildest fantasies to each other. That had a powerful hold on me -- I've had what I considered intense sexual connections before, but this was my first girlfriend who seemed to be every bit as kinky as my wildest fantasy.

And that definitely was a part of why I wasn't making great choices towards the end of the relationship and couldn't stick with my repeated decisions to detach. And I've read a lot of members here say similar things. So I think many of us are aware of it ... .just that being aware of something and acting on that knowledge are two different things.

I also agree with VitaminC that physical intimacy can be very complex. Yes, I loved living out my wildest sex fantasies with my ex. But what made it so powerful and produced such a hold on me was that it was all shot through with this incredible feeling of longing and sensuality we had for each other and that we just seemed to find ourselves on the exact same wavelength for the time that it lasted. To be living out your kinkiest sexual fantasies while still kissing each other tenderly, to feel free of all sense of shame and self-consciousness as you let it all hang out with a person you feel completely in love with ... .I mean, sure, in a sense you're being driven by sex and sexual desire. But there's a whole combination of things that come together to make you hold on for so long.

Afterwards, our minds can tempt us to say it was "just sex", because that helps us let go. And thinking that way to some extent did help me to accept I don't want to recreate that relationship with my ex, and I don't want sex to take up so much of my focus each day. I could hardly get anything else done at times during our relationship, especially because I worked at the same place as my ex. We spent all day looking for time and excuses to sneak off together. The truth for me is that I had real trouble letting go of the sex because it brought so much, both physical and emotional, to the surface in such a powerful way.

Admittedly, all that may just be a fancier way of saying I did accept (and contribute to) a lot of crazy because the sex was so good. I just tend to think of it more as that sex was the focal point for all that we were trying to work out together, and the more disordered our relationship became, the more intensely we tried to work things out sexually.

[rfriesen]

Speaking of ego/pride, that is a big part of this as well. We as men are conditioned for our entire lives to hold women up on a pedestal and receiving female validation is not only innately important to us but also shoved down our throat by society / media etc.
... .
I also gained the introspective thinking to look at myself and understand how overly dependent I was on the female validation that I was receiving from my ex.

I think this is a great point. And as you suggest, it's not just the female validation that can be a deep hook, but the cultural validation as well. We are constantly fed images (advertising, social media, music videos, movies, etc etc) of beautiful couples as the epitome of happiness or excitement or drama or coolness or whatever that everyone is striving for. It can be very hard to swim against the tide here and hold to different values and desires, in large part because we're often not consciously aware of the way our environment conditions our desires.

None of this is unique to BPD relationships. If anything, what's unique about the BPD relationship is that the aftermath can give us some real insight and motivation to delve into all the ways our culture and our upbringing have wound us up to chase fulfillment in a way that might not be working for us.

[fromheeltoheal]

I think this is a great point. And as you suggest, it's not just the female validation that can be a deep hook, but the cultural validation as well. We are constantly fed images (advertising, social media, music videos, movies, etc etc) of beautiful couples as the epitome of happiness or excitement or drama or coolness or whatever that everyone is striving for. It can be very hard to swim against the tide here and hold to different values and desires, in large part because we're often not consciously aware of the way our environment conditions our desires.

None of this is unique to BPD relationships. If anything, what's unique about the BPD relationship is that the aftermath can give us some real insight and motivation to delve into all the ways our culture and our upbringing have wound us up to chase fulfillment in a way that might not be working for us.

Yes, great point rf, and interesting that once we do get that motivation to delve, what comes out of that.  I credit what was left of my sanity for actually turning the whole dynamic on its head when I was still in the relationship, asking questions like where's mine?  What kind of work is she doing to maintain this relationship?  Is she being as validating of me as I am of her?  The answers to those questions inspired me to leave her, but we get to take the lessons with us, and is there really any room in a 50/50 relationship for pedestals?  Not unless we're both on one.

[pjstock42]

is there really any room in a 50/50 relationship for pedestals?  Not unless we're both on one.

This is a good point and although I was not the one who decided to end the relationship, a big part of me maintaining NC and never wanting to go back was realizing that the relationship was never equal and I was too blind to see it. She was providing things that I wanted such as the aforementioned validation along with sex/companionship etc. but I was always on a constant "performance review" it seemed, always being measured up by how many "romantic" things I did for her, how much money I spent on her etc. When I look back, the entire r/s was really her testing me to see why I "deserved the pleasure" of her company and that is definitely not healthy. It was as if she felt entitled to being wooed 24/7, being constantly treated as a princess etc. as soon as the relationship moved past the honeymoon phase where those things naturally slow down a bit, I was deemed to be no longer worthy of her presence.

Beyond her arrogance and sense of entitlement the created this dynamic, it was only made possible by my own lack of self-esteem which led me to buy-in to the game of always needing to be one-upping myself/other men just to deserve having her around and that's something that I can now look at and hope to not repeat in the future.

[fromheeltoheal]

is there really any room in a 50/50 relationship for pedestals?  Not unless we're both on one.

This is a good point and although I was not the one who decided to end the relationship, a big part of me maintaining NC and never wanting to go back was realizing that the relationship was never equal and I was too blind to see it. She was providing things that I wanted such as the aforementioned validation along with sex/companionship etc. but I was always on a constant "performance review" it seemed, always being measured up by how many "romantic" things I did for her, how much money I spent on her etc. When I look back, the entire r/s was really her testing me to see why I "deserved the pleasure" of her company and that is definitely not healthy. It was as if she felt entitled to being wooed 24/7, being constantly treated as a princess etc. as soon as the relationship moved past the honeymoon phase where those things naturally slow down a bit, I was deemed to be no longer worthy of her presence.

Beyond her arrogance and sense of entitlement the created this dynamic, it was only made possible by my own lack of self-esteem which led me to buy-in to the game of always needing to be one-upping myself/other men just to deserve having her around and that's something that I can now look at and hope to not repeat in the future.

Good awareness pj.  And it's helpful to realize that a borderline has to have that dynamic in a relationship, as a way of managing the opposing fears of abandonment and engulfment, and why folks with low self esteem make good potential attachments.  And the gift of all of that is once we experience the dysfunction on steroids that is a relationship with a borderline, the slap in the face wake-up call can have us decide we will NEVER be willing to settle for such treatment again, and any such one sided silliness will never be tolerated.

[drained1996]

Interesting topic as I too was in a r/s that centered around sex.  That was the one area... .we had no problems with.  Like rfriesen my sexual escapades with the ex were erotic, nasty, and intimate all rolled into one.  It was a definite emotionally connecting thing for me when we engaged.  To her, according to our T, sex was love.  Without the emotional ability to have a healthy adult understanding of intimacy, that was the "best" way she could express any form of closeness.  It was difficult to comprehend at the time, but upon reflection it is clear to see.  I imagine her brain said: "Here I am, I give myself to you and will do what I can to pleasure and be pleasured.  This is my best way of expressing my love for you." 
And that expression of love would end as soon as the sex was done... .because she couldn't carry or express adult intimacy any other way.  It's very dangerous to have that as the "best" expression of love in any r/s, and magnified tremendously with a BPD involved.  Many times their extreme sexuality is linked back to some sort of sexual abuse they suffered as a child (hence the onset of the illness)... .that's kryptonite to have one's most intimate expressions be the type of act that caused the most shameful feelings in their life. 
Was I thinking with my penis at times... .yes... .but it meant much more to me overall than just sex, that was just part of my ability to express my love.  To her, and many others, it's their only way. 

[VitaminC]

I have to come back in here, just briefly, and say that although I do not have a penis, I relate to most of what you people with penises are saying. Ok?

I just don't get that the difference between how women and men think about this and the emphasis they put on sexual chemistry is that different. Perhaps it doesn't matter really, but I do find it more useful to think less along gender lines and more along people lines.

[fromheeltoheal]

I just don't get that the difference between how women and men think about this and the emphasis they put on sexual chemistry is that different. Perhaps it doesn't matter really, but I do find it more useful to think less along gender lines and more along people lines.

I agree VC, and more specifically here, along disordered vs ordered lines.  A healthy relationship is a healthy relationship, and although this thread is populated mostly with penis owners so far, the emotional dynamic is what's at the core of it, regardless of gender. 

Interesting, unlike many folks here, sex with my ex wasn't all that great, mostly because she used it as a soothing tool to bliss out and wasn't present for the proceedings, very unfulfilling for me, and add the "dole it out as a reward if I was good" vibe and it certainly wasn't something that was addicting or even especially attractive.  Probably made her easier to leave.

[drained1996]

"I just don't get that the difference between how women and men think about this and the emphasis they put on sexual chemistry is that different."

I'll take a shot at explaining this from my experience.  If you were to take the average non male and the average non female and judge their sexual fantasies, I'm fairly certain the non females would conform more towards "acceptable" boundaries as viewed by society than would the males.  Non males sexual fantasies would probably be shunned by most women.  Given that our BPD partners tend to mirror us, it would be practical to say that a male BPD partner might tone down his fantasies to match that of his non female partner which is completely understandable.  It's also understandable that the female BPD may very well ratchet up her fantasies in order to mirror her non male partners.  This may include dropping most if not all boundaries and for lack of a better term, becoming their non male partner's own little porn star. (huge idealization feeling for many men)
That would be the dynamic that would separate the reaction a male would feel about sex with their BPD partner, and what a female would feel about it with theirs.
With us non males, having this dynamic sexual connection basically allowed sex to take us back to the idealization phase.  We would get a shot of the drug we much needed which really wasn't the sex, but the idealization.  Having this feeling makes us slower to be able to see what we really needed to see, which was the overall toxicity of the r/s. 
With non females, I'm going out on a limb here and saying that sex with their BPD partners would not be like getting a little of the idealization phase.  Thus no hit of the drug to make you "feel" better about things. 
I hope that makes sense, and know there is no offense intended. 
Keep in mind, for me, and I would think for most males in here, it wasn't just about the sex.  We loved our partners and our feelings went much deeper.  It was our partners whose emotional intimacy was stunted and sex was love for them... .which is not healthy. 

[gotbushels]

Oh yes don't get me wrong I've done my fair share of delving into the dark depths of my soul. I consider introspection the silver lining of a BPD relationship. Without it my new relationship would be heading down the same toilet.

This all makes sense. I'm glad for you Visitor.

Forgive the crudeness and over simplicity of my post. My relationship was testimony to the old adage "crazies are good in bed". If I had of invited a film crew along I could have turned our sex sessions into a 6 DVD porn set and made millions.

I think the question in your first post was fair. I think it was straightforward. Sex plays a significant role in many of these relationships. I think pwBPDs are not "normal" in some of their thinking, and if sex is sometimes a way to express some of our thoughts about the world and the people around it, then I think it's fair to sometimes expect not "normal" sexual acts from pwBPDs.

I was just wondering how much sex plays a part in our willingness to endure such psychological torture and how much it's over looked.

I understand this curiosity. I think to discuss it is good. It's not always easy to think about and discuss how sex related to the great pain endured.

[steelwork]

Data point of one here, but I I'm a chick, and I believe sex was one of the main things that kept me in the relationship and made it so hard to let go of afterwards. Not crazy or boundary-busting sex--just incredible mutual attraction. We called it "the ague." Sex is never just sex, and there's really no such thing as pure chemistry. So many little things contribute to attraction. There was a high level of vulnerability, for one thing--much discussion of really personal things. A lot of TALK about sex. Also, it is incredibly, addictively, erotically intoxicating to be worshipped sexually. That's part of the famous idealization. Sure, it's not just pwBPD who idealize a new lover, but that is after all a major part of the story for most of us: the degree and persistence of it, unlike anything I'd ever experienced.

[gresmunkie]

was the sex good? most of the time yes. but honestly ive had better sex before and after my ex. and ive also never been in a relationship with anyone else who tried to use it as a form of control over me. is it why I stayed? absolutely not. unfortunately for me I was in it for the 'fairy tale' just as much as she was

[FallBack!Monster]

 
Every time I change the page there's a topic that pulls me back. My ex accused me on several occasions of trying to manipulate her with good loving. I told her if so, then she tried to pull me back in with her sexy a$$. She found those words laughable. I didn't.

I didn't bc i realized I was in a tough spot. Sharing my feelings with her was milking me. I knew it but it's as I didn't care.

I've been love so I knew what she was willing to give me and offering wasn't true love. Also, I have loved and have been in love but this person w/o effort was controlling my better judgement. All I wanted to do was feel her skin s. and lips against mine. She didn't seem to mind it but her friends convinced her it was an attempt at controlling her and she believed them so she blamed me for being a good partner. 

[Curiously1]

So I was sitting with a female friend one day and the subject of my crazy ex came up. I asked her the question why I stayed with such an individual despite the obvious signs of craziness and she pretty much summed it up in one sentence...

"Visitor, I think the answer to that is in your pants"

As much as we delve into the dark depths of psyche and read through pages and pages of text looking for answers, can we sometimes just say we were thinking with our penis?

Don't have a penis but yes one of my exBPD lovers was charming and very beautiful and the best sex I had. That is hard to let go of, especially when I saw her as the full package and we had a lot in common too and that makes me miss her and want to like someone again as much as I did with her. I know that I irrationally want her over people who may be better for me just because she exudes this kind of sexiness. I know it's more than just physical attraction but the physical attraction and sexual chemistry is strong thatsometimes it feels that I am mostly just lusting for the physical again with her too and that I let certain things slide because of it 

[Larmoyant]

No penis here either, but sex was important to me. Not because he was sensational, but I liked the excitement and closeness. I miss that a lot, and sometimes wonder if I’ll ever have sex again. I hope so.

[earlgrey]

We loved our partners and our feelings went much deeper.  It was our partners whose emotional intimacy was stunted and sex was love for them... .which is not healthy.  

I agree with stunted emotional intimacy, but in my experience sex, while freely available in very plain vanilla only (and no i won't move), was too a very inhibited version of love.

The reason I stayed so long was probably more to do with the pile of beatifully ironed shirts. This was THE signal for I care for you... .

[FallBack!Monster]

 
I don't know  yus much here being a more active member of another community but I hope I'm welcome to chime in on this topic.

I know why I stayed. so many reasons so little time.
After all that life's brought to me in offerings. After all the good and bad experiences in my life. After all the people i've  met and swapped life experiences with; good and bad stories.  After all past or current funny, outrageous, fun, delightful, boring, sneaky, crazy or risque sexual experiences i've participated in or have heard of.  After all i've been through; wondered about; cried for, long for, wish for with out being able to pin point what really is it that was missing. What is it that while Im surrounded by simplicity and every day life, which most seem okay with. They are happy & joyful in the moment. People are living, smiling, attending family outings; drinking, drugging and laughing as if the internal damage they're doing to their bodies is funny. I've  participated in all of the above, with the exception of drugging.  It felt as though everybody was enjoying life and I was forcing myself to be okay with "this simple life.".

Please be patient while I say this to myself and share with yus.
Somewhere around the mid 90s a light bulb went out in me. idk. People just started to look simple as heck to me. Their topics of Convo bored me. Again, idk.
Sexually is a big deal to me. It makes me feel free to express it and enjoy it. But I find it to be boring when the other person is just enjoying the physical aspect of it. Then I get bored.

Drinking or getting drunk, I view as something to be done socially. I limit myself to a level where I can still enjoy a buzz. in short, even though I've done it in my younger years, I don't see the point of getting $4it face if after that the fun is over. I want to remember the fun I had.

But here's "the most" important factors about me. Above all there's  Loyalty & Respect.

How does all this coincide with the topic?
I found her and all my dreams had come to life. I was scared but I wasn't bored.  As the days went on, we form a convalescent bond.  She came to feed my thoughts; my empty: my hunger; my need for wanting to know what else is there. Or so I thought.
The kisses where exactly like in my fantasy. Sexually we were a match. Not how good or bad or the best but in other ways. She lacked but I was willing to teach and she was gratefultful to learn. I also was gratefultful to learn from her but she was to ashamed to share that side of her.  She was fun like me and at the same token, boring like me.  We could stay in or go out, we didn't care. It was still fun.
 
I know yus want me to make my point... .  After all the good and bad in my life. I had found the one thing (person) that didn't bore me to death. Pls don't judge. I am a fun person to be around. On a daily basis I find entertainment but at the end of it all, most people are just too simple for me and unable to keep a conversation going. life can be fun but today fun for most consist of getting high in some way. Not criticizing he who chooses to do it. It just never turned me on.
 Then she happened  but she is broken  and unable or unwilling to recognize the difference between something and something else. Someone and some one else; Good & bad. Healthy/unhealthy; The truth & a lie. An area in which I couldn't be of help and she couldn't convince me.

Why I stayed? She turned my light on for a bit.  but unfortunately (fortunately) I am able to tell the difference in all. There was no LOYALTY and definitely, no respect. So I push away until she doesn't want to come back. 
The sex was exceptional bc to me it was more than the physical. It freed me from ... .

Sorry it was long.