An update... thoughts?

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

Hi all

It was 7 weeks ago today that my uBPDh left. Since that time we have met up twice, with the last time (9 days ago) resulting in him having a break down crying for about 25 minutes. Over the past week I did NC and then yesterday morning he texted me to say 'I would like to arrange another meeting for us'.

He then sent me a long text last night after we figured out a day to meet stating that he believes he might have NPD and that he plans to continue to explore this himself as well as professionally. I don't think he would meet the criteria for NPD personally, but certainly can identify traits. BPD is definitely a better fit though which he is also considering.

I don't know what this meeting is about and he leaves the country in 3 weeks (for a few months and then will return). We were married for almost 10 years and although he has shown a lot of poor behaviour at times he did improve it over the years (less aggression). Unfortunately, it turned into him really shutting down - probably to try to avoid exploding.

Anyway, I have a few days to figure out what I might want to say at this meeting, and am wondering about whether I still want to try to save our marriage.

Any thoughts?

[Firebird]

Hi all

It was 7 weeks ago today that my uBPDh left. Since that time we have met up twice, with the last time (9 days ago) resulting in him having a break down crying for about 25 minutes. Over the past week I did NC and then yesterday morning he texted me to say 'I would like to arrange another meeting for us'.

He then sent me a long text last night after we figured out a day to meet stating that he believes he might have NPD and that he plans to continue to explore this himself as well as professionally. I don't think he would meet the criteria for NPD personally, but certainly can identify traits. BPD is definitely a better fit though which he is also considering.

I don't know what this meeting is about and he leaves the country in 3 weeks (for a few months and then will return). We were married for almost 10 years and although he has shown a lot of poor behaviour at times he did improve it over the years (less aggression). Unfortunately, it turned into him really shutting down - probably to try to avoid exploding.

Anyway, I have a few days to figure out what I might want to say at this meeting, and am wondering about whether I still want to try to save our marriage.

Any thoughts?

[eprogeny]

I think if he is willing to seek therapy for his limitations - that there is a reason to hope.  It will be a long road, though, and you have to ask yourself if you have any faith in a positive result.

From what you've described it doesn't sound like NPD to me, either, but if it is I would only say I don't think that is something that can yet be successfully treated.  BPD is another matter, and maybe he has some level of comorbidity that would allow therapy to help him to control his symptoms enough for any of the NPD traits to diminish.

It's hard to say, really.  I can only ask if you feel he knows there's something wrong on his end or if he thinks the problem is just yours to deal with.  That answer will go a long way toward knowing whether or not there is any hope for a successful resolution.

[Mutt]

Hi firebird,



I think that you're probably right that he'll want to talk about reconciliation. Nobody can predict what's going to happen in the future but you had long history together, 7 weeks seperated is not a long time, he was emotional at your last meeting, there's a good chance the agenda will be similar in this meeting.

[VitaminC]

Hi Firebird,

A few questions for you (to consider) (and/or tell us about, if you can):

* how are you feeling now?
* how was the week of NC for you?
* how is he "exploring" himself? In therapy? By reading? By thinking?
* what was your last meetings like and how did you feel after it?
* what would need to change for you to be happy in that relationship ?
* what would you want to do differently yourself?
* what does the thought of being together fill you with? Anxiety? Hope? Relief ?
* how much work are you prepared to do to keep the relationship going ? I ask because if you've been reading the resources here, you'll know that even with a BPD Diagnosis and treatment, and a commitment from the pwBPD to treatment, it is never smooth sailing or the kind of mutually supportive relationship many of us imagine is possible between two people. The nonBPD will always do more of the work.

What do you think?

[Firebird]

Been away from my laptop for a few days so am a bit late in replying, but very appreciative of all of your responses

I think if he is willing to seek therapy for his limitations - that there is a reason to hope.  It will be a long road, though, and you have to ask yourself if you have any faith in a positive result.
It's hard to say, really.  I can only ask if you feel he knows there's something wrong on his end or if he thinks the problem is just yours to deal with. 

I think he definitely can see there is something wrong on his end. He wrote about memories coming up that are painful and that he is able to look back over actions he is ashamed of without so much emotion and reaction. However, I don't know how long he is able to be in that mind frame as he tends to flip to avoidance mode. When I think of this, I wonder if he will just continue to be that false self because it's easier than working through everything. But I know that's just my thoughts and not necessarily what will happen.

* how are you feeling now?
* how was the week of NC for you?
* how is he "exploring" himself? In therapy? By reading? By thinking?
* what was your last meetings like and how did you feel after it?
* what would need to change for you to be happy in that relationship ?
* what would you want to do differently yourself?
* what does the thought of being together fill you with? Anxiety? Hope? Relief ?
* how much work are you prepared to do to keep the relationship going ?

Right now I'm quite anxious and have been a lot for the past few days. I have mixed feelings and after doing a reasonable hike up a mountain on Thursday a lot of anger and a lot of other emotions have come up.
 
The week of NC was okay. At first I was a bit up and down after the meeting we had, but by the end I felt strong in my decision not to contact.

I think he is just reading at this stage and self diagnosing by the sound of it, but he is clearly doing a lot of thinking too. I don't know if he is having conversations with anyone else about what he is discovering about himself.

The last meeting was very emotional for him (me too but more for him) as it seemed like our physical connection (he initiated holding hands) broke down his wall and I felt like I could see in his eyes the man I married. Probably sounds cheesy but it seemed like the real self was emerging during that time.

What would need to change would really be about having therapy, both him and us together also. I would want to have more open communication and we would have to work on him being able to speak up about how he feels and what he is thinking. I have always been flexible in this, in terms of saying I would be okay with him writing things down if he can't say it to me.

I would want to continue having my own therapy (which I am doing atm) and be better at walking away from conflict when things get heated. I always wanted him to be able to say he wanted a break or ask 'Can we do this in an hour because I'm getting mad' and that never happened.

At the moment the thought of being together again can tick all those boxes (anxiety, hope and relief) but I can say that when we held hands and hugged last time we saw each other I felt warmth, comfort and love and a strong connection between us.

I would be prepared to put in the work for sure and always put in more than he did, but I would definitely need more commitment from him to put more work in from his end.

[Ceruleanblue]

It sounds like you are putting thought into all this, which is good. Also, with him having left, it has given you some perspective? Do you think he's likely to actually work on being better? I had to come to terms with the fact that my BPDh didn't want to take any real responsibility, or actually work on behaving better, or being happier. If it only effected him, great, but it effected ME too, as he'd take his moods out on me. I got tired of the abuse, and threats, and finally filed for divorce. It's not what I wanted, but how long can you live with abuse and threats? I felt like I was finally able to say "fine, I'll give you what you want, I'll divorce you". Of course, then he sort of changed his mind. He waffles though. I want stable, and I want someone who wouldn't even think of threatening me with divorce.

It sounds like your husband is at least owning some of his behaviors, and seeking help. This is so much more than some of us get, but only you know if it's enough. You could even wait and see how his treatment goes before you decide to jump back in. What is your gut telling you to do?

[Firebird]

Well, things have changed dramatically since I last posted. (long post but felt necessary)

One thing I know for sure is that my uBPDh is more unwell than I thought. The other thing that I've decided is that I'm done. I no longer have hope and I no longer want to try to work anything out. He clearly has no intention of getting any help and I think I just got painted black in a passive aggressive way (on Instagram).

So, I mentioned that he wanted to meet up (he is leaving the country in 2 weeks). We had organized for it to be on Monday but hadn't set a place or time (he said 'We can have a think and decide where to meet later' and he had texted me the previous Tuesday. On the Sunday evening late he texted stating he wasn't feeling well and that his car was broken, basically unsure if he could make it. Talked about the possibility of public transport or meeting at another time.

This annoyed me because he left it so late, had many days to arrange it and waited until the night before, so the next day I asked 'What is the purpose of the meeting?' because he is the one who wanted to meet but seemed to be messing me around.
He very quickly said 'No purpose'. This went on with me trying to make sense of it and him putting it back on me and then ignoring me. I tried to call him but he rejected it. Hours later he wrote that he was in a bad mood 'dickhead mode', that he was sorry and that he would let me know that night about when he could meet.
Fast forward to getting late in the evening and nothing so I texted 'Are you still in dickhead mode because it feels like I'm being dicked around'
He said 'Yep. You are. Sorry. How about tomorrow night?'
I agreed (stupidly I think now) and we organized to meet this evening.

Then at 2pm today while at work I receive a text saying that the car is (insert swear word), that he felt (insert swear word), that he was calling it off because there 'is no point for it right now'
I didn't respond.
Almost 2 hours later he says 'I shouldn't let it affect me so much. Have calmed down now. Can still meet if u want'
I wrote back that I didn't think it was a good idea, it wasn't okay to treat me like that and that if he wants to meet up before he leaves he needs to handle it better and not to stuff me around.
He said he wasn't doing it on purpose and that he's really conflicted. Went on to say this means "inner turmoil, unstable moods, anger for no reason... .you know, the same ___"
I said I knew of it and that it sucks but that he isn't helping himself, that he had the opportunity here to get help with a wife by his side but he chose otherwise. I also gave him the number for a helpline to call (I'm actually a counsellor myself - which is a bit embarrassing given this stuff)
He said 'will do. thanks'

Anyway, I went home and I had thought that even before the meeting was called off that I knew in my gut that this was done. So, my friend texts me tonight to show me an instagram screenshot of uBPDh. Drinking, smiling, with text saying 'sometimes all a man needs is music, a shave and a tumbler of bourbon' with 25 hashtags. (some were 'mental health' 'not good enough' 'why worry' 'baldisbeautiful' 'down day' 'cheer me up' 'torn' etc)

He has never been a fan of hashtags so now I feel like the narcissistic traits are out and that this was a reaction to my rejecting meeting with him.

I felt sickened by seeing this and don't recognize this person at all. I feel foolish but I'm so glad I'm out of it.

[Firebird]

Don't know if anyone read my last post, but the day after he did his Instagram thing I got another text asking to meet again, with 'I promise I won't cancel' at the end of it. 

I can't make any sense of this.

[patientandclear]

Actually it seems to me to make all kinds of sense: he has BPD. Exactly as he reports, his emotions are all over the place, conflicted etc. I'm actually somewhat impressed he has the awareness/presence of mind to identify that HE is the problem ("I shouldn't let it affect me/I'm in dickhead mode/you're being dicked around" rather than resting on a cover story that somehow makes it your fault, or something you caused.

That said--awareness or no, it's still how he's behaving! As you say, it's not how a loving and supportive partner should be treated.

His Instagram post just seems to be him feeling sorry for himself and conflicted.

If you're not 100% resolved on being done, what would you need from him to keep going? Perhaps it would be useful to get very clear on that in your own mind and perhaps share it with him. Your focus in the last few posts seems to be on him getting help. But "help" for this condition is slow and partial at best. Can you live with this behavior?  Are there specific concrete boundaries you need for him not to cross for this to continue? Does he know those? These questions seem within your immediate reach. The wait for him to get help and thereby significantly change his core impulses and reactions is a low percentage chance.

[Firebird]

Actually it seems to me to make all kinds of sense: he has BPD. Exactly as he reports, his emotions are all over the place, conflicted etc. I'm actually somewhat impressed he has the awareness/presence of mind to identify that HE is the problem ("I shouldn't let it affect me/I'm in dickhead mode/you're being dicked around" rather than resting on a cover story that somehow makes it your fault, or something you caused.

If you're not 100% resolved on being done, what would you need from him to keep going? Perhaps it would be useful to get very clear on that in your own mind and perhaps share it with him. Your focus in the last few posts seems to be on him getting help. But "help" for this condition is slow and partial at best. Can you live with this behavior?  Are there specific concrete boundaries you need for him not to cross for this to continue? Does he know those?

I know, and I do give him credit for having some awareness. It took him many, many years to even be able to recognize that. But still, this awareness comes hours after the incident and probably only because I didn't react at all (it was all over text msgs).

The reality is, I was living with his behaviour and I still loved him and was prepared to continue (I was nearly 10 years into our marriage). He was the one who left me. In an email he wrote to me in third person after he left he said he cannot live alongside someone any longer with this going on (his behaviour as it was all about him saying he is hurting me and he wanted to stop the hurt). Please keep in mind that this was not coming from me at all though.

So, it doesn't even matter what I want because he doesn't want the relationship anyway. And even though he said last time that he wasn't sure, he is leaving the country in under two weeks.

But I guess I can prepare myself with this meeting that is supposed to be on for later this week for the unlikely chance that he might show some willingness to repair it. But I just don't think that will happen. I'm running out of fight here... .in fact, I think I may have already run out of fight. If there is absolutely nothing coming from his side, I can't do it. It's just too painful.

[patientandclear]

Well, there IS something coming from his side, which is ambivalence about ending it.  He likely isn't going to be content about leaving things here (broken apart) either.  One of the sad aspects of BPD seems to be that pwBPD continually change things in hopes that the change will feel better, and at first it does because of hope and the unknown, but then it doesn't, because that is no better, plus there is new loss.

So there will be emotion and regret and uncertainty coming from him about whether he really wants to lose you and your r/ship.  That, I keep getting over and over from my pwBPD too.  He doesn't like or want the loss.

What he lacks is any awareness of the nature of the crappy feelings that arise for him when he tries to repair our relationship, or any skills about how to deal with those feelings without doing tremendous damage he later comes to regret.  We just had a recent episode of trying to repair, and despite what I think was a lot of sincere intention on his part to try something different, he just does not know how.  He found himself doing the exact same things that have always result in endings for us.

I hear your point loud and clear that YOU were already showing up in acceptance.  It sounds like you have already absorbed the lessons and tools that are needed to try to make something like this work.  In the end, as you say, it is also about what he can tolerate and the choices he chooses to make.

Good luck with your meeting if it occurs.  Good luck trying to parse the line between "nothing coming from him" (which probably will not be the case; it would be clearer if it were), and "nothing coming from him the suggests he knows how to handle this differently and in a way that can work for you."

 

[Firebird]

Well, there IS something coming from his side, which is ambivalence about ending it.  He likely isn't going to be content about leaving things here (broken apart) either.  
So there will be emotion and regret and uncertainty coming from him about whether he really wants to lose you and your r/ship.  That, I keep getting over and over from my pwBPD too.  He doesn't like or want the loss.
We just had a recent episode of trying to repair, and despite what I think was a lot of sincere intention on his part to try something different, he just does not know how.  He found himself doing the exact same things that have always result in endings for us.

Good luck with your meeting if it occurs. Good luck trying to parse the line between "nothing coming from him" (which probably will not be the case; it would be clearer if it were), and "nothing coming from him the suggests he knows how to handle this differently and in a way that can work for you."

Thank you patientandclear. You're right. There is definitely some ambivalence coming from him. At our last meeting he was saying 'You want the truth and the truth is that I don't know for sure'. I know it's FB but he still has himself as married and with my picture (with him) in his feature profile pictures. I've even taken it off my own but he hasn't.

I know that he's still struggling with himself a lot, with him mentioning his inner turmoil and being conflicted. But he is also struggling with his identity (naturally), in particular his not having a career and being unsure about what to do in life - seeking a purpose. Our next plan was that we were meant to be trying for a baby and that freaked him out too. He wrote in the first email (note the 3rd person) 'Even if he could give you a family, he is terrified that he cannot provide you with the happiness you deserve, because the fear and doubt is always there in the back of his mind, ready to f*** it up'

We had been travelling together for 13 months until earlier this year. An amazing trip of a lifetime through 15 countries. 5 months later he walks out the door.

It sounds so hard hearing about your pwBPD having those sincere intentions yet still not being able to change. That's something else my pwBPD wrote about in that email too, being afraid nothing essential will change in terms of conflict, anger etc.

[patientandclear]

Those are very honest sounding thoughts he is sharing.  My person wBPD will only say "I cannot be trusted" and "if we continue down this road, it will all fall apart, and that will be awful."  (So let's break it apart now.  Involuntary loss apparently feels far worse than intentional surrender.)

The most difficult thing may be that he might be right.  It is possible that he just cannot hang in.  That it is too painful and he just cannot resolve his fears and doubts.  That's a useful reminder to us all.  Sometimes this stuff is just not surmountable.

I hope he finds a way through the thicket.  It sounds like it is almost entirely out of your hands, except the decision whether to continue to be open, and the effort (which you have been making all along) to let him say what he feels, without judgment.

Best of luck.