Back to square one

[Oncebitten]

Well that perfect feeling of being back in a relationship has been taken away once more.  Still wants me in her life still wants me to be her friend. But a r/s no... .not right now anyways.   A few days of pure joy taken away in an instant... .and dashed upon the ground.  Friends... .is that really enough? Is it a path back to a loving relationship or simply a path to heartache when she moves on?

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Cat Familiar]

I'm sorry you've felt so much anguish about this relationship. I can't speak for her, but I'll let you in on a secret that women keep closely guarded:

"Friends" can mean any number of things. 1. it can be a guy who is a placeholder that will due in an emergency when the guy we really want isn't interested  2. it can be a guy we use to make the guy from #1 more interested or jealous  3. it can be a guy that we do things with (including sex) while we wait for someone better to come along  4. it can be a guy who amuses us and is "almost good enough" with some modifications  5. it can be a "buddy fu@k"  6. it can be someone with whom we share genuine feelings, but that we're skittish about getting involved with for some reason

I ended up getting married to a "friend" after he was so persistent. I did "love him" but I was never "in love" with him.

You can take your chances with this woman, hold out hope that you fall into the #6 category, but to be brutally honest, it's a crap shoot. She may never think of you in the terms you want. So perhaps this is why you've received so much advice to not settle for "friends."

[Meili]

Can you tell us what happened? How did you two go from committing to work on the relationship back to just being friends? What events happened?

[Lucky Jim]

Hey OB, I admire your fortitude.  You hang in there when others would probably throw in the towel, which is an admirable quality in some contexts, but maybe is misplaced in this r/s?  One time I asked you to consider whether you might be barking up the wrong tree.  Well, are you?  Only you know for sure.

LuckyJim

[Oncebitten]

Cat

Its number 6... .sure of that so it will just require more patience on my part.

And Meili cant really say I think she just got scared of being hurt again... .we have talked and are still working on it... .no label at the moment but both committed to doing the work

[Oncebitten]

LJ

Hey long time, always appreciate the way you put things... .forces me to think.  But I am certain its the right tree... .just might be barking a little to hard.

[Notwendy]

Some thing to think about when barking... .( Pavlov's dog model)

Intermittent reinforcement is the most powerful reinforcement. If you are barking too loud, it may be because sometimes, the barking works.

Well that perfect feeling of being back in a relationship has been taken away once more.

Also, the ups and downs of this push-pull pattern and drama in relationships can have an addictive quality. Amazing highs, and then, the low of withdrawal. For some people, there is nothing like the intensity of these relationships. But- they can be a package deal- the highs and the lows.

[Oncebitten]

Notwendy

No doubt the barking works.  I just need to see that while I can bring her back to me by barking, that once she is there I can't continue to bark.  We have since talked and she simply is scared to get hurt again and wants to proceed slowly.  Sometimes emotions get better of the both of us and we misunderstand one another.

[Lucky Jim]

No doubt the barking works.  I just need to see that while I can bring her back to me by barking, that once she is there I can't continue to bark.  We have since talked and she simply is scared to get hurt again and wants to proceed slowly.

Hey OB, Sounds like progress.  Glad to hear that it's the right tree.     Seems like you are learning and growing through this experience, which is a positive thing, in my view.

LJ

[Oncebitten]

LJ


Growing and learning no doubt.  Despite the struggle and the pain, I have no doubt that we can come through this and both be better for one another in the end.  Thanks for the support, I feel like its very positive too.

[Meili]

All of your push and pull seems to be following a pattern. Have you examined the pattern to see how you can change it?

[Oncebitten]

Meili

There is a pattern no doubt but I am not sure as to how to change it.  It is leveling out, much more good than bad lately.

[Oncebitten]

What do you do when something innocent sends them off the edge, essentially that very sensitive nature reads more into a simple text than is there. 

[Notwendy]

This kind of thing used to really upset me and I would jump to show my H that his feelings about me were not true. But this in effect was trying to manage his feelings. Co-dependency work taught me that, I really can't manage and control someone else's feelings.

It is really upsetting when this happens, but I have to look at the reaction in comparison to reality.

I know your GF is concerned about your incident with the other woman, but it can happen even in absence of anything. Most of my texts are between my female friends and my kids- usually over school related things. But as more fathers are being involved, joining PTA's and so on, I will sometimes get a text from a father asking about a school related thing. A male buddy from my childhood sent me a political joke- just to irk me. If my H sees these texts, the default mode is to think I am cheating. He knows, intellectually, that I have not, but in the moment, feelings take over.

I can feel a wave of fear when a text comes up on my phone and he looks at it. I just dread the possible reaction over nothing. However, I have learned that- if there is nothing to defend, then defending it just seems to give the accusation validity. JADEing made it worse. So, I have to stand firm in my own truth. I have nothing to defend and his upset doesn't change that.

If your GF is going off the edge- it is actually her issue, not yours. The hard part for you is dealing with your own feelings while letting her deal with hers.

[Oncebitten]

Oh no its not that.  Its a text I sent her, a short reply to her comment and she took it as me being insensitive and not caring about what she was talking about.  I knew it would upset her after I sent it and tried to apologize but it was too late.

[Notwendy]

I've dealt with this too, and the same thing applies. My H would get angry at me over something I didn't say right, didn't do right, or didn't do. And then, he would give me the ST for days.

Trying to explain, once this started, was futile. Once he made up his mind- that was it. Trying to explain led to circular arguments, -" you should have said it this way" "or that way".

One aspect about your situation that I can relate to, ( and which really irks me- I know that is a personal thing for me) is the idea of unforgiven, whether it is a big thing or a little thing. We have a system for redemption, both materially and spiritually ( if someone chooses that) , within relationships. Few people don't ever make a mistake. Most of us have offended someone, done something insensitive. The way to repair this is to apologize to someone, and that person can accept it or not. If they accept it the relationship is repaired. Or they don't and the relationship is broken- ends. For big things- robbery, - a person goes to jail, or pays a fine, and then has to be on good behavior. But few things lead to a life sentence.

What irks me is being in the unforgivable zone with no path to repair/redemption, whether it is for a text, a comment, or a larger error. My parents would impose severe penalties on us kids for the smallest offense. For major ones ( the biggest being discussing mom to anyone) we would be literally cut off. Mom has written me in and out of her will so many times, I don't even know, or care at this point, but being disowned by parents for the slightest error was hurtful.

This pattern really hooked me into a loop with my H. He would decide that I did something wrong because I forgot his favorite soda when I went grocery shopping, or didn't say something just quite right. Then, for that, he'd get angry or not speak to me for days.

But people do this because it works for them. I got so upset, begging, pleading , wanting to fix this so badly while they were in complete control of the situation. The only thing I know that stopped this was for me to let go of it.

The risk of this is that the other person won't like that and end the relationship. I know I took that risk. My H being married and committed then made his own choice. This is a tough place to be in, but we accept that everyone has a choice. I was not done with my relationship,but I didn't want the dysfunction, and all I knew to do was to be done with it on my end.

In our legal system, we are innocent until proven guilty, but in my relationships it felt as if I was guilty until they decided to stop being angry. That is unacceptable to me- its a boundary. They can accuse me, think what they want, but I have to hold on to my truth. Once the people in my life realized that I don't respond to this kind of thing, it diminished.

[Oncebitten]

NW

So how do I handle this?  This by the standards as of late is very minor.  And honestly I have know that something like this was coming. Everything has been pretty peaceful for several days.  Even the problem that caused me to start this post was a misunderstanding on my end.  She handled it very well.  Its these little things that get to me.  when that person you love gets so upset over something that was never meant to be the least bit upsetting. 

I know I cant JADE, but how do you set a wrong (in someones mind) right without talking about it and offering some kind of apology?

[Notwendy]

OB, this seems to be a pattern. Sometimes the wrong is real, but then if an imaginary wrong feels real to them, then this is a part of them. How to change someone's thinking? I don't know.

I don't have this superpower. I also can't read minds.

I think it is fair to offer a validation and an apology, but not a long circular JADE. I might say " I am sorry that what I said hurt your feelings as I didn't intend it to. " Doing more explaining just leads to circular arguments for me.

Sometimes my H will push it, and I will just go silent. And he will go on and on until he sees I am not reacting. I am not giving him the ST, just listening ( as long as it isn't abusive) to him tell me why what I did was so terrible. Then, I just repeat " I can see how this upset you, and I apologize" and then end the conversation.

The rest is up to him. I've also done this with my mother. JADEind and trying to explain feels invalidating to them. Their feelings are real- in the moment. They need to be heard, and so I do hear them, but I don't react.

I don't think we can fix it, but sometimes just being present, listening, without explaining or reacting, or trying to prove they are wrong ( but you don't have to agree they are right either, just that you understand that they feel hurt)  lets them be heard, and it can diffuse the situation.

[Oncebitten]

I know how it read and I understand why she is upset.  And thats why I sent the quick apology.  I really am sorry but its tough when they just refuse to hear it.  Even when you validate their feelings.   What do I do?  Wait for her to calm down?

[Notwendy]

Not much else I can think of to do.

What makes this so hard is your own feelings about this and fears- fear of losing her.

This is real. We all have it. Even in a marriage- a spouse still has the choice to leave. We can't keep people in a cage to sooth our fears.

However, if we are in so much fear that we can't tolerate them being angry or upset, it keeps us walking on eggshells.

I don't think these behaviors start at the relationship ( they may evolve in one) but we bring them to the relationship. I think that when we are hooked, it helps to examine why.

I bring up my childhood patterns because I believe they set the stage for my reaction to m H's behavior. I also think he adopted his behaviors because these were acceptable in his FOO. Everyone WOE around his explosive father, and we did over my mother. I loved my father and had a huge fear of disappointing him and making him angry. What a great setting to make me tow the line and appease my mother- although I don't believe it was intentional. He couldn't stand it if she was upset and wanted her to be happy, so he wanted us to do this too.
It was automatic for me to to this with my H.

But your GF is human, and like all people, can get mad, upset and manage it. The issue is how do you deal with your feelings when she is. Perhaps looking at some of your FOO patterns is a clue to that.

[Oncebitten]

This anxiety on my end definitely comes from that feeling that I am losing her.  She reinforces it by saying she is done.   Logically I know this not to be true.  She says it all the time.  But it still hurts, still triggers that feeling that I am/have lost her.

[Oncebitten]

When it rains it pours.  Things can be the best ever and go to he*l the next because on one text message that was interpreted as a sign I don't care.  Find myself on the outside looking in once again.  Cut off and given the silent treatment, told that its over and shes not going back.  Refusing to speak to me even.

[Cat Familiar]

This is a tough situation, OB and in order to change it, you'll have to go waaaay beyond your comfort zone.

I really get how you feel because I've been there too. What changed it for me was "healthy narcissism." Like Notwendy says, this behavior originated in my childhood. I had to do lots of twisting myself into a pretzel for my mother's forgiveness and I carried this behavior into my first marriage with a BPD husband.

He didn't have the same standards of forgiveness for himself.    I was just supposed to deal with his behavior, whatever it was.

Anyway, here's the deal. Say "sorry" once and that's it. Otherwise you're groveling. They don't respect a groveler. And when they don't respect you, you get BPD behavior on steroids!

I know you're afraid of losing her, but you've already lost her if she doesn't respect you.

[Oncebitten]

Cat

I agree with you, I think thats why the ultimatum the other day snapped her back into reality.  I have stood my ground this go round and so far it has worked, we are talking once again.  And her raging continues to diminish with time.

[Cat Familiar]

Good on you OB!    Don't feed the BPD monster and it goes away.

[Oncebitten]

feed it don't feed it... .doesn't matter... .still can't fix anything

[Cat Familiar]

Nope. Can't fix it. Didn't cause it. Can't control it. Can't cure it.

But you can get out of its way and not be a target! If you can make it unfulfilling or boring for them to attack you, they'll seek targets that give them more juice.

It took a long time for me to get this message. I tend to be reactive to "unfair" situations and try to show the "injustice" of it all. Totally the wrong approach with a pwBPD.

Now when I realize that I'm in the line of fire, I just exit the situation. Or if I can't do it, like if I'm in the car with him, I get strategic and completely "unreactive" and soon there's no more fusillades heading my way. I've become too uninteresting a target.

[Lucky Jim]

It took a long time for me to get this message. I tend to be reactive to "unfair" situations and try to show the "injustice" of it all. Totally the wrong approach with a pwBPD.
Now when I realize that I'm in the line of fire, I just exit the situation.

Nicely said, Cat Familiar.  Right, disengagement is the only approach that worked for me.  Trouble is, when one gets "uninteresting" and detached from one's BPD SO, it leads to emotional withdrawal, or at least it did in my case.  Towards the end of my marriage, in order to protect myself from her emotional and verbal abuse, I refused to share anything personal with my BPDxW, which didn't make for much of a relationship.  At that point, our marriage was essentially over and we were like strangers living under the same roof.

LuckyJim

[Cat Familiar]

Yes, you're right Lucky Jim. Detachment creates both safety and distance. Rather than a marriage, I'm living in a roommate situation. The nice thing is that the conflict is now down to almost zero. I'm working on rebuilding the intimacy, but truth be told, knowing what I know now, I'm not all that motivated. He's truly a nice guy, but the BPD really gets in the way and I've lost a tremendous amount of respect for him. So much for seeing things clearly and not continuing to live in a fantasy, although I really enjoyed the fantasy while it lasted.

[Oncebitten]

CAT/LJ

Thanks for the input... .I understand what you are saying and I realize how I can disengage from the fighting... .I know how to do that... .the question becomes if I give up the fight does she walk?  I guess for me seeing as I still want to be with her my feeling is to continue the fight.  Its tough but we are having those fights less and less as she works through the hurt.  And things continue to improve, but do I risk losing a part of what we have by refusing to have those talks, which do lead to fights some times.  They aren't hurtful or abusive just exhausting.  IDK i just feel like we are on this path which has a light at the end of the tunnel and while it may seem dim right now I can see it.