What about us?

[hollow]

Thanks to this site, I was able to understand what happened in my "relationship". It helped me understand her much better, and reading my story over and over again written by various people over many years it helped me let go.

I started reading the forums after the breakup. I broke up with her in the worst way possible. Made sure I was painted black, simply because I didn't want to get myself in this emotional pain again.

A few months passed. I was finally better. She came back. I read about this so many times, I was prepared. I was certain she came with a manual now, so it was easy to work with, as long as I kept my emotional distance. But you can't be a robot all the time.

Everything happened as before, and the same way I read on the forums.

My questions is this: We understand them, and they all have similar behavioral patterns and even vocabularies. But what about us? I tried their techniques on other people and even on her, we all respond the same way. So, I want to understand us. I don't want to discard and ignore. I want to know why this behavior has this effect on me. Why am I acting crazy? How, after all the walls I built, she managed to break through? Why am I driving by her house? Why am I suffering? Why can't I just walk away? I know this burns, so why can't I take my hand away? I don't want this person in my life anymore. I don't want to be a slave to this story. I can break free from crazy stories very easily. Why not from this one? What about me? I want to understand me.

[C.Stein]

Hello hollow,

I can understand the confusion and pain for certain.  I will ask you one simple question here.

What did she give you that you can't find with someone else?

[hollow]

Hello hollow,

I can understand the confusion and pain for certain.  I will ask you one simple question here.

What did she give you that you can't find with someone else?

I understand your question, and to answer that, I'll be blunt by saying nothing, or even much less than what I can find in other people. However this is a rational response to a rational question. My question above concerns our irrational behavior. I know that I'm not the person I've become through her behavior. I understand their behavior is labelled "crazy making" but that doesn't help with anything. I don't want to run away by labelling it that and avoiding BPDs. I want to understand why I'm having these reactions.

[eprogeny]

I started reading the forums after the breakup. I broke up with her in the worst way possible. Made sure I was painted black, simply because I didn't want to get myself in this emotional pain again.

I'm betting there's more to this than you have been able to understand at the time you did this.  When you think back to that moment when you chose this course of action, can you recall why you were not able to end it differently?

I was certain she came with a manual now

Oh how I wish that were true.

My questions is this: We understand them, and they all have similar behavioral patterns and even vocabularies. But what about us? I tried their techniques on other people and even on her, we all respond the same way. So, I want to understand us. I don't want to discard and ignore. I want to know why this behavior has this effect on me. Why am I acting crazy? How, after all the walls I built, she managed to break through? Why am I driving by her house? Why am I suffering? Why can't I just walk away? I know this burns, so why can't I take my hand away? I don't want this person in my life anymore. I don't want to be a slave to this story. I can break free from crazy stories very easily. Why not from this one? What about me? I want to understand me.

You're asking the right questions.  And that's a good thing. 

I'm not sure what you mean regarding "tried their techniques" on other people... .do you mean you tried to emulate the behaviors of BPD? 

As for why the behavior effects you as it does... .I can only say what helped me to see why I was so effected.

I started with the same question - why is this relationship effecting me so severely? 

The burning answer was - I deserved better.  I. Deserved. Better.

And as I studied that emotional response inside of me I realized I was angry.  Like... .really angry - and I was angry at her for treating me as if I did not deserve better.  And that was when the lightbulb started to go off.

I thought about all of our arguments - the ones which really made me the most upset - and I realized every single one of them surrounded this very familiar feeling.  It was a feeling I felt in my childhood.  My mother has BPD and all of her behaviors left me feeling like I did not deserve better - like my life, my needs, my wants, my hopes, my dreams - none of them were valid.  My only value was to fulfill the needs of others.  That feeling of having no value - of deserving the abuse - is a very specific feeling.

And I felt that way every time my BPDexgf would do or say something that showed me I no longer mattered to her.  That was when I knew I had fallen for my ex because when she was "Splitting" into ideation of me that I felt valued.  I felt the exact opposite of how I had felt in my childhood.  And when my ex devalued me I was left feeling exactly like I did so many years ago.

And it sent me into a PTSD tailspin every time.

I suspect that you have been triggered by her behavior into an emotion or physical response that closely approximates something you felt when you were very young - and some very old wound you may not even know exists is being relived within the dysfunction of your adult relationship.

Keep asking yourself these questions - drill into your own thoughts and feelings - and don't stop until you find that one raw exposed emotional nerve with your ex's name written all over it.  Chances are that's where you need to start.

[C.Stein]

I want to understand why I'm having these reactions.

I can't answer this question for you, only you can.  I can however say I stayed for several reasons ... .love, obligation, commitment being big ones.  That said, the biggest reason I stayed, why I kept allowing myself to be burned was because I refused to accept her behavior, actions, words for what they were.  I wanted to believe in her, trust in her and her ability to be more than the sum of her past actions.  Time after time she showed me she couldn't be that person, the person she so desperately wants to be.  Yet I continued to believe in her even though on some levels I could see the illusion for what it was.  So I repeatedly gave her second chances, chances to show me she could learn from the mistakes and grow towards that person I believed in and loved so deeply.  This resulted in me making irrational decisions, not listening to my "gut" and even worse, convincing myself that my instincts were wrong.  I didn't want to believe I was wrong about her!

There is also the inability to accept failure, something we all try to avoid.  Sometimes in our attempts to avoid failing we use unhealthy and potentially self-destructive methods.  I did not want to fail, both myself and her, so I allowed my own emotional and personal well being to be marginalized, ignored and eventually severely compromised and damaged.

Then there is a core want/need/desire that she fulfilled.  She is not the only person who can fulfill this want/need/desire, she was just the person who fulfilled it in ways it had never been before.  Thing is there was almost nothing healthy about it and I was a willing participant in that dynamic.  It was not all her, or all me.  My choices are mine alone to own and I cannot blame her for the choices I made.  I chose to stay and because of this choice I alone am responsible for the damage done to me.  That said, it does not nor will it ever excuse her behavior or treatment of me.  I trusted her to love and care for me the same as I loved and cared for her.  She betrayed the love and trust I gave her in every conceivable way and it has fundamentally damaged me.  Yet at the end of the day I know I allowed this to happen so who is really to blame here?

To this day, 13+ months after being replaced then introduced to the trashcan and ghosted I still struggle with this.  I spent so much time and energy convincing myself that she was something she is not that I am still having a hard time seeing through the illusion I built.  What makes it even more difficult for me is in many ways she was "the one" and a good portion of our relationship was "good".  However for all those beautiful and desirable qualities she possesses that caused me to fall so deeply in love with her, for all the good in our relationship, her "dark side" was the side of her in control and will always be in control.  This is reality and no illusion will ever be sufficient to hide it.

[Conundrum]

Hi, without additional context your question remains difficult to answer. However, I wonder whether the walls you erected were to keep her from hurting you--or to protect yourself from acting out? Perhaps a combination of both.

Sometimes, we stuff our emotions down and erect barriers because given a certain set of operational circumstances our own imbalances, impulsivity, hyper-emotionalism and emptiness becomes triggered. That begs the question, that when operating in such a manner--are we acting "out of character" or are they long standing recognizable traits/patterns.

If you are asking why--your pwBPD, or the relationship, is able to make you operate "out of character"--more than likely the answer is because on some level you remain disproportionally invested in a feeling (that you became hooked on while with her)--and life without that feeling appears (on a some amorphous level) to suck. People will do crazy (out of character) things when they believe that another holds the key to the feelings that hooked them.

Becoming hooked on a feeling (how a love interest made you feel) is common. Pop songs are replete with those expressions. Though gaining perspective concerning why those feelings hold such hierarchal importance--to the extent that they subsume ordered mechanics while driving you to act "out of character," means delving into (as eprogeny mentions) core childhood wounds. A meaningful life is a compendium comprised of multiple subordinate keystones. Though the primary keystone always rests within. People with co-dependent traits often neglect maintaining their own keystones. They disproportionately invest in others thereby abdicating central authorship over their own narratives. I wish you well on this journey towards healing.

[hollow]

Thanks to everyone for your replies. You all make valid points, but I realize now that I haven't phrased my question properly, and for that I apologize.

An attempt at rephrasing my question: I understand why their behavior is "crazy making", as dubbed by many professionals. What I seek to understand now is why this behavior of theirs creates a specific response in us, i.e. why is their behavior inducing a type X response instead of a random one? When they do one specific thing, we end up with a specific response, which is unlike our personality, and yet most of us on these boards share the same response, similarly to how most BPDs described here share similar behavioral patterns.

I have gone through many articles online and skimmed through around 500 pages on the board here. Read books, saw movies, followed psychiatric chats online & talked to a psychiatrist concerning this disorder. I even ended up sharing stories with people who've come across BPDs in the past. Over-analyzing helped in understanding BPDs' behavior and relieved the anger and frustration. All of this helped in accepting the existence of such a thing as BPD. It seems that specific actions of theirs create specific reactions in most of the people posting on these forums. These are common/similar reactions.

As for looking into my past, I did. I even got misguided by the many things I read. It turns out I don't share the family surroundings many describe in the forums. Without getting into details (I doubt there's a need for that), I will only dub this as a "curve-ball".

There is no pain anymore, and forgive me but I disagree with the word "healing". In my mind, "healing" suggests reverting back to the original state. I like to think of this as "recovering", as I'm never going to be the same. And I did recover fairly quickly. We all have different coping mechanisms.

In the hope that someone might find this helpful: what helped me recover from this fast was over-educating myself concerning this disorder; expressing myself through some form of art; writing down a month-by-month journal of all the things that happened between us; and lastly, emulating their behavior (based on a friend's advice, which was something along the lines of "in order to fill the gap created by the other person, you may want to try becoming them for a while". The latter helped me understand even deeper, and eventually break free. I no longer have feelings for her. I don't hold on to the memories. I understand my feelings were towards an imaginary person, one I helped create; and that was my fault and my responsibility. I don't feel anger towards her or mercy. She was brought up this way. I don't take it personally anymore. I have accepted it as fact. The same way I accept her contradictory behavior as fact. Accepting was a form of letting go.

---

To eprogeny: Breaking up with her in the worst way possible seemed like the only way out of what seemed to be going on and on without end. It turns out it wasn't the right way, but constant pain can have strange effects on people, of course. She did come back at some point. Also, I started reading the forums a month or two after this happened.

I strongly believe in the "manual" concept. Based on the information on this site and in various other websites, their behavioral pattern is quite specific to a fault. An X action creates a Y reaction from them. In that sense, they are easy to control, work with or even manipulate. The problem with this is that the person pushing the buttons has to remain unaffected and quite robotic. Keeping emotional distance and having a purpose to the button-pushing is a huge task on its own.

Also, yes, I mean I tried emulating their behavior. It had similar results. That is what made me want to understand our behavioral patterns as well.

[eprogeny]

When they do one specific thing, we end up with a specific response, which is unlike our personality, and yet most of us on these boards share the same response, similarly to how most BPDs described here share similar behavioral patterns.

I've wondered this, as well.  I've truly begun to suspect is that their chaotic emotions take their toll on us to the point that we end up behaving in accordance to the emotional turmoil we feel - and what we're feeling is what they're feeling.

We go through their hell with them until we just can't take it anymore.  We "opt out" through an option our partners don't have.  The sheer amount, depth, and breadth of their psychological anguish is truly breath-taking.  It's really no wonder they destroy everyone in their lives.

How can that kind of chaos ever do anything else?

Breaking up with her in the worst way possible seemed like the only way out of what seemed to be going on and on without end. It turns out it wasn't the right way, but constant pain can have strange effects on people, of course. She did come back at some point.

That bolded part - that's what I mean about how we transform into BPD-like reactions.  We become destabilized by their dysregulation just as much as they do.

As for the way you facilitated your out... .

I went the opposite route.  What I saw, so clearly years ago was that she was trying to "wean" herself from me despite begging me to not give up on her and to keep our options open.  

It was not until she was secure in knowing she had a replacement for the attachment she needed from me (someone she very carefully groomed for the job) that things went from that excruciatingly slow weaning into an instant overnight "oh, you're still here" sort of behavior.  I still have trouble wrapping my head around how that sort of thinking works.

And that's the thing that really opened my eyes to the seriousness of the disorder.  

I read all about BPD without quite "getting it".  It wasn't until I was unraveling at the end and came here to this site and read so many stories just like mine that it began to really sink in just how ill its sufferers really are.  It was never that my ex's reality was mostly normal with a little bit of wonky... .it's that the entirety of her reality is wonky.  

She has no idea that her life - her experiential understanding - is so skewed by her symptoms.  She literally has no way to see it or comprehend it because she cannot experience or comprehend anything else - she has no "normal" frame of reference like we do.

She lives for one thing only - behaves for one thing only - stop the emotional pain.  Everything she does is to that end.  

And I?  In her mind, I am the problem.  And over time I only added to it. I am the source of her worst emotional pain and hurting me only caused her more pain.  She hated how it felt to love me - hated how I reacted to the hurt from her behaviors - it caused a debilitating level of emotional dysregulation that was nearly equal to the fear she had of losing me.

Her BPD coupled with my co-dependeency made us a no-win scenario.

Her solution? Replace me and get me out of her life. I told her she deserves to be able to handle her emotion for someone she loves, and that's why we need to not have anything meaningful until she's had some time in therapy.  She just stares blankly at me when I try that and hears "you're a bad person".

There's no insight, no awareness, no ability to consider that she's making impulsive choices based on unstable emotions stemming from split thinking.  None.  

And yet you know - I know - all of us here know - this story?  Freaking textbook BPD example.

She cannot, however, see it.

I strongly believe in the "manual" concept. Based on the information on this site and in various other websites, their behavioral pattern is quite specific to a fault. An X action creates a Y reaction from them. In that sense, they are easy to control, work with or even manipulate. The problem with this is that the person pushing the buttons has to remain unaffected and quite robotic. Keeping emotional distance and having a purpose to the button-pushing is a huge task on its own.

Yep. It's why I am glad it's over.  I don't want to be that person in her life - the person who is managing her like a parental or therapeutic figure.  And in my opinion, I don't think any romantic partner should ever have that role - it's the definition of power imbalance, you know?

They've got to be the ones to make the choice to get help and manage their symptoms.  If my ex does so, I will welcome her into my life again.  If she doesn't, then I need to stay as far away as possible - for both our sakes.

Also, yes, I mean I tried emulating their behavior. It had similar results. That is what made me want to understand our behavioral patterns as well.

So you emulated BPD behavior on others as an experiment?  Why do I find that funny and scary at the same time? LOL

[C.Stein]

An attempt at rephrasing my question: I understand why their behavior is "crazy making", as dubbed by many professionals. What I seek to understand now is why this behavior of theirs creates a specific response in us, i.e. why is their behavior inducing a type X response instead of a random one? When they do one specific thing, we end up with a specific response, which is unlike our personality, and yet most of us on these boards share the same response, similarly to how most BPDs described here share similar behavioral patterns.

When you become emotionally invested in another person their actions/words/behavior will impact you differently.  The more invested you are, the more trusting you are, the worse the reaction is when that is betrayed. 

Let's take "button pushing" as an example.  When someone "pushes your buttons" you react.  If a stranger or an acquaintance does it your reaction is probably not that great and tempered with logic because there is no emotional investment in that person.  You react with your logical mind not an emotional one. 

When someone you have emotionally invested in and placed your trust in pushes that same button your reaction is far more intense because you feel violated/betrayed.  Your reaction is emotionally based.  Once removed from the circumstances that generated the reaction your logical mind attempts to make sense of your reaction but it can't because there was nothing logical about it.  The more emotionally invested you are the more intense/illogical/irrational your reaction will be. 

When you take that to the next level and become emotionally enmeshed with another person, which typically happens when involved with a pwBPD, that reaction is intensified even more and is even more illogical.

This is why it is so very important when you feel your emotional mind taking "control" that you step away, step back, step outside of yourself ... .especially when dealing with a pwBPD.  It is also why having strong boundaries is critical.

[hollow]

C. Stein:
Totally agree with everything you said. However, I would like to find out why most of us here are reacting almost the same to their actions. For example, you push a ball in a certain direction, the ball will move in that direction (it's the direction that concerns me, not the actual movement). It's a specific reaction to a specific action. Our reactions are specific as well. What feels odd about our specific reactions is that they are shared. They are labelled "crazy making" reactions yet they are not random. They are predictable. They are specific reactions shared by many people across the globe with different backgrounds and different personalities. It's this I'm interested in looking into.

eprogeny:
Sorry, I just need t ask something totally off-topic -- why would you welcome her into your life again if she got help? I am well aware that the person I got to know at first never actually existed. It was artificial and aided by my "need to see such a person existed". I am also aware that there is no cherry-picking. Her good side comes along with her bad side. If she gets help, that "good" side will go away as well, and a different person will gradually form. And this is after ignoring the past. I know her too well and I really don't like her. I personally don't see a reason to welcome her back other than experimentation and learning. So, why would you welcome her back if she got help? Other than the strong physical attraction (I'm guessing), what is there for you?

[C.Stein]

It's a specific reaction to a specific action. Our reactions are specific as well. What feels odd about our specific reactions is that they are shared. They are labelled "crazy making" reactions yet they are not random. They are predictable.

Do you have some examples?  I see a lot of variability in reactions here on this site.  Certainly there are some similar reactions because we are all in similar circumstances.  That said there is as much variability as there is similarity.

[hollow]

It's a specific reaction to a specific action. Our reactions are specific as well. What feels odd about our specific reactions is that they are shared. They are labelled "crazy making" reactions yet they are not random. They are predictable.

Do you have some examples?  I see a lot of variability in reactions here on this site.  Certainly there are some similar reactions because we are all in similar circumstances.  That said there is as much variability as there is similarity.

I'll try and find some on the site so I can share. Off the top of my head, what I can share now concerns shared stories with people I've met: driving by their place countless of times, "needing" to talk to them about something that's wrong whilst knowing it won't get us anywhere and trying to push too hard to communicate, various types of stalking. I'm ashamed to admit I've been there, and so have people I've talked to who've been in similar circumstances. I have also encountered the above on the board here in old topics.

I share more traits with counter-dependency than co-dependency, and so is another person I've talked to concerning this. I am aware that counter-dependency can be tipped over to the co-dependency side for short spells, but what I'm trying to get at with this is that it doesn't take a specific type of person to have these traits, just a person who's come into contact with a BPD.

[rfriesen]

what I'm trying to get at with this is that it doesn't take a specific type of person to have these traits, just a person who's come into contact with a BPD.

Well, it takes more than "contact" with a person who has BPD. It takes joining that person in becoming emotionally invested in a dysfunctional relationship. Many people are not drawn to those kinds of relationships and will draw boundaries that prevent them from becoming attached the way many of us here became attached to a partner exhibiting BPD traits.

And, to take your specific examples:

driving by their place countless of times, "needing" to talk to them about something that's wrong whilst knowing it won't get us anywhere and trying to push too hard to communicate, various types of stalking.

I have never driven by my ex's place. I have very often "needed" to talk to her while knowing (or strongly sensing) it likely wouldn't get me anywhere. I have pushed too hard to communicate. I've never stalked her, either online or in person. I don't have FB or Instagram or any other social media, and I never have. So I suppose that helps me with the online stalking.

The behaviours you describe are hardly unique to people who have been in relationships with BPD partners, and many people - like me - who have been in relationships with someone who exhibits BPD behaviour do not engage in all those behaviours.

Are you asking these questions because you don't recognise yourself in descriptions of co-dependent personalities and want to confirm that "anyone" would have responded to your BPD ex as you did? I'm sorry if I'm putting words in your mouth. That was simply the sense I got from your posts. If so, what have you gained from learning you're not co-dependent and that anyone would have reacted as you did?

[rfriesen]

I am well aware that the person I got to know at first never actually existed. It was artificial and aided by my "need to see such a person existed". I am also aware that there is no cherry-picking. Her good side comes along with her bad side. If she gets help, that "good" side will go away as well, and a different person will gradually form.

hollow, I think I understand what you're saying and, up to a point, I agree. In my case too, the person I fell in love with wasn't the whole story and many of the highs we shared came as a package with the lows. That said, do you think there's a chance you're overstating these points? Do you think that personal change is necessarily a zero-sum game, and that anytime a person changes, the good and the bad changes completely balance out? Or are you applying that only to pwBPD?

For what it's worth, there are many sides of ex's personality that I still love deeply and that, to my mind, are not at all driven by BPD, but rather become twisted and deformed through BPD. I don't ever want to be in a romantic relationship with her again, because it became too painful and there was such a fundamental lack of trust that it was ultimately not a fulfilling relationship. But she's certainly more than just her BPD behaviours. True, she was those too and in the end I couldn't look past that. But I can honestly say I still love her and that if she showed a genuine effort to tackle her "dark side", I would welcome her back into my life on some kind of friendship level (if she were interested) because I care for her and we shared many great moments and I find it sad that the ending was brutal and we can never reminisce as friends about the good times.

Obviously, that's not necessarily a reason for anyone else to want to have their exes in their lives. I'm speaking just for myself here. But maybe you also see your ex as more than simply a set of BPD behaviours?

[eprogeny]

Sorry, I just need t ask something totally off-topic -- why would you welcome her into your life again if she got help?

That's an easy answer for me.  I have known her for four years.  For the first year I knew her, most of that time was not with me as the victim of her ideation phase.  In that time we established a really good friendship.  And it strengthened during the ideation phase - the time in the the BPD relationship where I think we can all attest to the sheer breath-taking capacity of the love they give us.  

Then she fell in love, and the chaos began.  And in all the time I had known her before that moment - I had never known her to ever feel or behave that way with anyone, nor has she done so since.  It's always only been with me over the last 4 years and it's been simply because I exist in her life.  She cannot deal with how chaotic her emotions become when she recycles. Which is why, with this new Replacement, I am just pre-empting myself out of all future cycles.  

So, no, I don't think I'd ever be open to the idea of being her partner again - but that doesn't mean I want us to be on unfriendly terms.  I'm good to be in very light contact while she remains untreated so long as there's zero emotional investment on either side - I don't want to be party to any further harm.  I want her to be happy, but I also want her to be healthy and until she gets successful treatment it just isn't possible for either of to have a healthy emotional investment.  

But if she seeks therapy and gives it the necessary time so that she can regulate her emotions and manage her symptoms?  Yes, I'd definitely welcome a starting point for a meaningful friendship again assuming we keep in touch that long - which may or may not happen.    

I am well aware that the person I got to know at first never actually existed. It was artificial and aided by my "need to see such a person existed".

I understand what you mean by this.  I do.  I walked into my therapist's office last October shaking from head to toe unable to speak through the tears and I remember wailing my pain as "I can't even know how much of it was real and how much was a lie."  Because that more than anything was my worst pain.

My therapist talked to me for a very long time, and folks here have reinforced her assertion, that based on the behaviors described - the how of them, when they occurred, why, etc... .it was her belief that it was all real at the time it was happening.  And when it stopped happening it didn't change what had already been real in any capacity.  Almost like an arrow of time, the "realness" didn't go in two different directions so that a future state of "what is" could undo a past state of "what was".

For me, that understanding was a monumental shift in perspective.  And taught me the danger of trying to
wrap my brain around her enough to understand the "whole" person.  :)oing that is the common error I think we all naturally make and I think it leads to what may be misplaced anger and resentment.  Personally, I've found the only way to see our BPDexes as a single whole entity is to forget that nothing about them is whole - meaning, we've improperly "pieced them together" in our memories.

Our BPDexes are fragmented.  They live, love, and experience in a fragmented way.  Imagine a broken vase that's been glued back together.  We know the vase is likely to leak water simply because it doesn't all quite fit back together the way a true whole vase would be.  That is the same for our past BPD loves - they are fragmented and not seeing it that way leads to emotional spillage.  

Therefore, I submit to you, that a shift in your perspective may create a path for the more hostile emotions to be soothed.  If you're like me, that is when you may end up being able to mourn - and heal - more effectively - because you can rest in the comfort of knowing that all the love you had together - every experience you shared - it was real for both of you.  

Once I was able to see it as having been real, then I just had to figure out, from that point, how to get to that next place where I could be "okay".  It's been a year since then and I'm not as okay as I'd like to be - but I am so much better than I was.  I'm still working on me and on my understandings - learning and growing - so I can become even more okay along my arrow of time.  So far, I have found the process getting there has grown my forgiveness and compassion along with my healing.

I am also aware that there is no cherry-picking. Her good side comes along with her bad side.

With these statements do you mean the ideation is her "good" and the devaluing as her "bad"?  

If she gets help, that "good" side will go away as well, and a different person will gradually form.

No one is their mental illness.  Who these sufferers are may be hard to discover, but there is a core person.  The "good" and the "bad" are not who they are or they would not have a problem trying to figure out a stable sense of self.  Rather, those elements are treatable symptoms of their disorder.  

And this is after ignoring the past.

Well I would never recommend that as a good idea.  Ignoring the past allows us to forget it, and forgetting the past allows us to repeat it.  If we're not going to get proper resolutions that are acceptable to all involved, there's no point in even trying another cycle anyway - with or without treatment.  

So, why would you welcome her back if she got help? Other than the strong physical attraction (I'm guessing), what is there for you?

To reiterate.  What is there for me is a history with someone for whom I shared a deep and abiding love - a real bond that existed before her BPD presented for us.  We still share it, just not the same way we used to.  

It was never about the physical attraction.  In truth she wasn't even my "type".  :)id I think her gorgeous?  Yes, but probably not in a typical way.  She was very "girl next door" and I loved that look on her.  Of course, since then she's altered that along with most everything else about who I knew her to be.  

What we had was a mutual friendship where we learned about each others lives, culture, experiences, and pain.  And we laughed.  My God did we laugh.  

When I think on it right now, I can recall right around the time I noticed the ideation begin - and that means we had nearly a full year of just common mutual friendship enjoying each other's time, stories, camaraderie, and we made it safe for each other to open up about very personal things.  So, yeah, she's an extraordinary person in my life - and I'll never not love her in some way or another.

So if she learns to manage her symptoms so that she and I can have a meaningful friendship - heck yeah I'd welcome that.  I'd love to get to know her in a whole new way.  I'd jump at that opportunity and I wouldn't even think twice about it.  

But would I welcome another romantic relationship with her ever again?  I cannot write the end of the whole story yet.  I can only write the end of the chapter I am in, and in this chapter - that answer is no.  

Ask me again in about 10 years.  I might have a different answer.  But I doubt it.

[hollow]

Too many things to quote, so I'll just type it up as a stream, and hope it's not all over the place.

I'll start off with saying that I personally was never drawn to these kind of relationships or dysfunctional people. I was always looking for peace of mind and something balanced (when I was looking for something). I always avoided such stories, and also avoided emotionally unavailable women. At some point, I seemed to be able to date only emotionally unavailable women (I'd find out later through other means that they were either in relationships or married, but had hidden that from me). It made me realize that I was doing something wrong that attracted these women. With the married BPD woman I got involved (and I'm ashamed to admit this), I seemed to throw everything out the window. The only way I made sense of this was after reading about biological compatibility. Supposedly, the biological factor tends to override rationale, and it so happens that the two biologically compatible people in question end up reverting to their primal instincts, which in this case concern reproduction, and by extend drives them to acting in ways that are not very characteristic of them. Now, how much of this could be valid, I don't know, but it does help me understand some of the things that happened between me and her.

As for the topic: on one hand, I'm glad that the reactions in people who've been in a relationship with a BPD are not shared, but on the other it takes me off the "lead" I thought I had in understanding me and my reactions more. On sharing stories with other people, they all mentioned similar responses, and finding various topics on these boards with similar reactions, had me semi-convinced that I was onto something. Obviously, I should be looking for different questions (and by extend, answers).

By "good" I'm referring to qualities you subjectively liked, and "bad" by the ones you didn't.  A person tries to be good by standards set by society, for example, but ends up being bad because that's how they know how to be, and don't know they're being bad. Example: instincts kick in and make them be emotionally abusive, and are completely unaware they're being "bad", even though they try to be good overall by doing community work.

I agree that some or most people are not their mental illness but most people are their "programming". We all share a common set of responses to similar stimuli (on a superficial level). Consider new couples at the park. Consider your reactions to new lovers. You may even consider dogs, as an example: they all have different "personalities" but most of them have a similar set of reactions to similar stimuli (treats, walkies, dog in heat, reward for good deed, guilt for "bad" one).

With the "programming" idea in mind, a mental illness can define a person or personality, and in that respect, hinder growth.

A side-note: I've read many times and also was told this by a psychiatrist that BPD is un-treatable, in a sense, as in that the person suffering from said disorder does not really recover completely, but learns to control certain reactions after constant effort and years of treatment by two or even three psychologists in addition to DBT treatment. The psychiatrist I talked to also added that "they are treated as in they don't end up committing suicide". I understand he was being humorous and light with this (after all we weren't in a professional setting and this was not a session), but it was close to the things I had been reading.

Having said this, I don't consider BPD people unapproachable. I am glad there is some way of dealing with them just as long as someone educates themselves enough. I haven't discarded my ex as a mere disorder and don't consider myself to be "normal" enough to pass judgement or discard anyone. There are crusaders online (different sites and even YouTube chats) about "avoiding the crazy", but I think we can cut some people some slack when we realize we're not on a high horse to begin with.

So, to conclude, yes in treating people like people and not like their mental illness, but always having in mind that a mental illness can define a set of personality parameters.

In any case, thank you for your answers, however it seems I started on an erroneous path concerning finding a pattern in ex-partners-of-BPD-people's reactions, and I should look inwards to find why I reacted in such a way, and why the people who shared this also reacted in said way. So, I'll go back to C. Stein's and Conundrum's first posts, re-read, and start from there. Thanks to everyone for their input.

[eprogeny]

It made me realize that I was doing something wrong that attracted these women.

It's a sobering moment when those thoughts first appear.  I, myself, began my healing journey with this very thought a year ago when I was trying to understand how it was that I had fallen in love and shared my deepest wounds with someone who left me, unintentionally or not, feeling so callously abused.  Now, nearly a year later, I know the answer was because I was reliving my childhood wounds.

I hadn't "sought out" this sort of thing in my life, either by the way. Yet, if the Imago Model of relationships is correct (and I think it applied here for sure), then with my BPDexgf I had unknowingly found someone with whom my subconscious wounds found an opportunity to be relived, re-experienced, and processed toward healing.  While I don't know if I could have healed with my BPDexgf, I did relive and re-experience those unhealed wounds because of her.  And I am so very grateful for it.  It took both the good moments and the bad ones for me to get to this place.  My much needed self-discovery just wasn't possible without all the cycles that got me here.

Don't get me wrong, my ex didn't recycle us on her own.  I accepted her attempts as much as she accepted mine and that's why it went on so relentlessly for so many years.  We were both trying to heal without knowing why we were so frantically enmeshed with each other.  It took something - I can't quite put my finger on it - to fundamentally break within me over our time together, and when I finally did break and then eventually began this process I stayed on the outer edge of understanding.  It wasn't until a couple weeks ago when hearing the stories of so many others helped me, that I finally crossed the event horizon.
 

On sharing stories with other people, they all mentioned similar responses, and finding various topics on these boards with similar reactions, had me semi-convinced that I was onto something. Obviously, I should be looking for different questions (and by extend, answers).

I think you are onto something.  Your self-discovery process sounds much like mine has been.  Your answers are coming.  Keep reading, keep sharing.  Something is going to "click" at some point and then you'll be on the right path toward your destination.

By "good" I'm referring to qualities you subjectively liked, and "bad" by the ones you didn't.  A person tries to be good by standards set by society, for example, but ends up being bad because that's how they know how to be, and don't know they're being bad. Example: instincts kick in and make them be emotionally abusive, and are completely unaware they're being "bad", even though they try to be good overall by doing community work.

You're referring to the behaviors as qualities, and their identity, I think?  I do my value judgments on who a person is a little differently, in that I tend to look beyond the behaviors to see the emotional or mental process behind why people do what they do.  For me, the how of their mental/emotional processing and the why behind their actions tell me who a person is and, by extension, what both their visible and hidden qualities are or will be.  I have no doubt I do this because of my abusive childhood, but I am glad for the capability as I tend toward the more philosophical things in life, anyway.

It may be that my tendency toward this way of viewing people is why my BPDexgf initially "let me in" and kept coming back to me.  I never judged her behaviors as the proof of who she was - I only cared about the "why" behind her actions.  And I was always able to sympathetically see the "why" was that she was so desperately afraid and in pain.  I felt nothing but compassionate understanding for it, and because of that she never felt judged for what she did.  It gave her hope.  Probably for the first time in her life.  Looking back on that, it's no small wonder she fell in love. 

The devaluation didn't happen until she began to feel judged for the "why" behind her actions.  The closer I got to the root of it, the further she tried to push me away, until the reason for her ideation finally broke apart and all she was left with was the hatred she felt toward me for the penetrating insight she no longer wanted me to have of her.  She retreated backwards and no longer found me to be a source of hope, comfort, or healing in the same way she once had.  I was flung into the outfield as her "last resort" not long after she stopped believing in my belief that she could overcome her chaos.

She's at a point where she knows she needs help.  She knows she can't get it even temporarily from me anymore and has split me so black I doubt she'll ever split me the other way again anyway.  So she's been desperately looking to find her comfort anywhere else except the only place it ever can be found.  I've come to see this as a godsend.  It has given me the space to gain perspective, to see the imbalance I've felt as a result of having borrowed her chaos for far too long.  It's been wonderful getting back to being me.

I agree that some or most people are not their mental illness but most people are their "programming"... .

With the "programming" idea in mind, a mental illness can define a person or personality, and in that respect, hinder growth.

We are all a product of our pasts.  That does not mean we have to be prisoners to it.

Programming often contains errors.  Maturation through life involves undoing that code.  For those with serious mental illness, a corruption in the code exists.  Sometimes we can do something about that and sometimes not.  We may not all have elegant base code, but we can all become extremely functional and able to lead far healthier and happier lives. 

A side-note: I've read many times and also was told this by a psychiatrist that BPD is un-treatable, in a sense, as in that the person suffering from said disorder does not really recover completely, but learns to control certain reactions after constant effort and years of treatment

Not all agree on this, but most do. And this takes me back to the idea of being able to be treated effectively being all the difference in the world. 

There are people without BPD who cannot function well or live healthy happy lives.  Many people with BPD, however, can.  The same is true for people with other serious mental illness, I should know - I have one.

I have chronic PTSD.  I will always have chronic PTSD.  I will always be able to be triggered, and when I am it is not pleasant for me or anyone around me. 

I cannot be cured.  I will never be able to be "undiagnosable".  There is no such thing as "recovery" for me. 

I can, however, be treated.  Through treatment I have learned to manage my PTSD in ways that have allowed me to be far healthier and happier than I ever was.  My therapist has told me that most people with PTSD would love to be as functional as I am - and that even many without it are not able to be. 

I am not "less than".  I am not less worthwhile, not less valuable, not less deserving of happiness or love than anyone else.  Yet, my illness is not stigmatized in the same way as BPD. 

The reason for that is not because BPD's are just inherently "not worth it" - it is because whoever feels that way about them is inherently incapable of the thinking, nature, and compassion they require.  Thankfully, someone did have those qualities in abundance and created DBT which has allowed so many to recover.  It is possible for someone with BPD to become undiagnosable.  That will never be possible for me.

While the treatment for BPD is not a cure - I do know that about 75% of the pain my BPDexgf suffered in our relationship was due to her inability to manage her symptoms with the one person she actually loved.  She has settled on a replacement relationship with someone she doesn't love in the slightest because she can "handle" it (i.e. it doesn't add extra pain). 

My hope for her is that someday she will find someone else she truly loves, and that she will have learned to manage her symptoms so the "extra" pain she felt with me won't be there.  If she will always live with some level of painful flareups, then it is a far nicer to thought to hope she will have a replacement she loves than one she does not.

And for myself, my hope is that I will get to a point where my own illness becomes even less of a boundary for my own happy and healthy future.

[hollow]

Although the support and research on these boards are both remarkable, I have come to the realization that all efforts to help or stand by my ex seem to be futile. Feeling intensely another person's mental pain, confusion and rollercoaster feelings is not something someone with empathy would want to be near. I've also come to differentiate between empathy and sympathy/compassion, the latter of which is not one of my strong points when it comes to my mental health being at stake. Although I disagree with the "no contact" idea of dealing with one's emotional pain, I see that it is a way of avoiding reattachment, and thus avoiding sharing my BPDexgf's feelings that stems through empathy. All the good times we shared are overshadowed by the bad ones so much that they seem but a distant memory. All the recovering I had to do, I did before her/our last recycle attempt. There's no work left to do. I've decided to let the dark times also be a distant memory. I don't want any more darkness in my life. I am much more educated, much more aware and much stronger now concerning human interactions thanks to the support and research found on this site. This darkness has nothing else to give me.

Humorous disclaimer: Excuse the hint of drama. Sometimes it helps driving something home, even if I'm saying it mostly for my own ears.

[Larmoyant]

Although I disagree with the "no contact" idea of dealing with one's emotional pain,

hollow, can I please ask why you disagree with the "no contact" idea of dealing with pain?

[hollow]

Although I disagree with the "no contact" idea of dealing with one's emotional pain,

hollow, can I please ask why you disagree with the "no contact" idea of dealing with pain?

Although I understand the reasons behind it, I disagree with it because I don't like the idea of fleeing from this as if it is something one can't handle (assuming one takes care to educate oneself concerning this peculiarity, and assuming boundaries are set and the outcome is still no substantial relationship and no recycling), also because ignoring a person ("the silent treatment" is also abuse and hurts the person with BPD deeply, also because it feels like discarding completely something that was all too real, at least for the non, which in turn feels like avoiding facing what's been there.

I like to think that I haven't discarded what transpired between me and my BPDexgf, but instead tucked it away in a dusty wardrobe of memories. I don't see my BPDexgf as a malicious person, and consider her being driven by her impulses and coping mechanisms. In that respect, I accept her yet I am indifferent to her antics. You could say that in a way I've "discarded" her through acknowledgement and acceptance, if you're fond of oxymora.

I tried being as indifferent, distant and unaffected in our last recycle as possible, and keeping as much emotional distance as allowed, given the circumstances, yet I don't think I am cut out for this for the following reasons: our "connection" (the parasitic type between a person with strong empathy and a person with BPD) is so strong, that I can feel her feelings and thoughts as if they were my own, and this confuses me and affects me momentarily, but it sometimes lingers for more than I would like, and being involved with an emotionally unstable person is not something a person with bipolar type III would like to have on one's hands. I like feeling as emotionally stable as I can, and I have my own ways of achieving that, therefore having a person who is totally off balance around me throws me off completely. I doubt many people can remain strong and unaffected all the time. It's all a matter of time.

However, I am convinced that this stance towards them can work for some time with people who are more stable than I am and who don't have as strong an empathetic connection with their BPDso. In a way, I am proposing substituting No Contact with Emotional No Contact (i.e. Emotional Distance). Of course, this isn't the way to have a substantial relationship with anyone, and I really doubt it can happen with a person with BPD. What I am referring to here is a dead-end non-intimate relationship with another person whose whole existence is governed by running around their own axis (moving all the time yet being static).

Although I've heard and read many horror stories concerning people with BPD, my BPDexgf is charismatic and fun to hang out with. The disorder, however, hinders her from having any sort of intimate relationship with anyone. She's lovely, just as long as you don't get too close. I understand that even though they all have similar predictable behavioral patterns, they are not all cut with the same cookie cutter, so I am saying all this in regards to my experience with my BPDexgf.

[hollow]

I keep forgetting about the addiction and withdrawal aspects of these type of relationships.

Links: https://bpdfamily.org/2012/06/why-breaking-up-is-hard-to-do.html

www.alcoholrehab.com/alcohol-rehab/addiction-symptoms-behavior/

[hollow]

So, the first stage is to make sense of things and understand. The brain is trying to put everything in order and see what went wrong. However, it is sometimes followed (with some of us) by frantic efforts to reconcile, to meet or see them and maybe even to bargain even though you logically know that this is doomed and that this person is not for you. There is anxiety, depression, mood swings, manic behavior, irritability and other withdrawal symptoms. They seem to be more or less acute depending on the person. The intensity of the relationship seems to play little role in this case when it comes to the withdrawal symptoms. I remember realizing I was having withdrawal symptoms when I was describing to a friend how I was getting tremors when seeing her randomly somewhere, and them mentioning that my description of my reactions seems like a junkie trying to get their hit.

Yes, No Contact helps in gradually withdrawing from this "drug", but since it is not a physical drug, I'm curious as to whether there are other ways of getting the mind to accept, substitute or remove this addiction.