My young friend is using me against his girlfriend

[Depression = 72% of members]

I get the feeling that my young friend is using me against his girlfriend. A couple of times he has been the victim and stated his desire to finish the relationship... I listened and supported him, only for him to go back immediately at the next phone call. A third time I listened while a male friend of his played the same role, only to be mystified when the woman called and he went straight to her again. A couple of days ago he phoned me and spoke to me in English: we chatted for a while till I discovered she was there too ... .and she doesn't speak English. So I ended the conversation. I find it is bad manners and unsettling for the 3 person when a language is used they don't understand.
 Today he called again, we talked for a long time, and I told him I didn't want him to speak to me in English if she was there. I explained why. He said nothing, we continued the conversation. He told me he wanted to finish the relationship; showed me pictures of another possible girlfriend ... .and then I found out she was still there. So I tried to switch languages, but he wouldn't, and said that she was just getting her things and leaving. Apparently she did, because after a while he told me she was calling him, and he had to talk to her. He asked me to give him hints on how to talk to her. I refused, and told him that he knew well my opinion, and that it was his relationship, not mine.
So here I am again, not knowing if he was using me again as before, not knowing how to react if it happens again. I just seem to play into his/ their hands. She is at least as bad, if not worse. But I don't talk to her.
Any ideas?

[foggydew]

I get the feeling that my young friend is using me against his girlfriend. A couple of times he has been the victim and stated his desire to finish the relationship... I listened and supported him, only for him to go back immediately at the next phone call. A third time I listened while a male friend of his played the same role, only to be mystified when the woman called and he went straight to her again. A couple of days ago he phoned me and spoke to me in English: we chatted for a while till I discovered she was there too ... .and she doesn't speak English. So I ended the conversation. I find it is bad manners and unsettling for the 3 person when a language is used they don't understand.
 Today he called again, we talked for a long time, and I told him I didn't want him to speak to me in English if she was there. I explained why. He said nothing, we continued the conversation. He told me he wanted to finish the relationship; showed me pictures of another possible girlfriend ... .and then I found out she was still there. So I tried to switch languages, but he wouldn't, and said that she was just getting her things and leaving. Apparently she did, because after a while he told me she was calling him, and he had to talk to her. He asked me to give him hints on how to talk to her. I refused, and told him that he knew well my opinion, and that it was his relationship, not mine.
So here I am again, not knowing if he was using me again as before, not knowing how to react if it happens again. I just seem to play into his/ their hands. She is at least as bad, if not worse. But I don't talk to her.
Any ideas?

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[patientandclear]

Yes--triangulation. You are the rescuer, he is the victim, she is the persecutor.

More important: do you want to play this role?

[foggydew]

I definitely do not. But I don't know how not to - I was trying not to by refusing to speak in English, by not wanting to talk if she was there, by saying it was his relationship not mine, by saying I want nothing to do with her, that it is his business.  He just talks about other things too, sometimes. But if she is there, it has the same effect.

[Meili]

  FD!

Have I posted this link to the Karpman Drama Triangle to you before?

[foggydew]

I have read it several times, but find it difficult to implement in this situation. For me the middle position would be to listen sympathetically to what he says, and ask him what he thinks he should do about it. I've told him I don't want him to use me to cut her out, but if she is there and he doesn't tell me, I don't know how to manage it. He is coming here this weekend and says he is coming alone... .we will see. Honestly, this woman is poison. But that is going to be his problem. I've told him that if he wants her as his girlfriend he is going to have to stand up for her to other people. Including me.
I'm really getting nervous about all this stuff. Like going to the dentist for tooth removal without anasthetic.

[Meili]

For me the middle position would be to listen sympathetically to what he says, and ask him what he thinks he should do about it.

Why would you ask him any questions at all? Isn't that playing the rescuer role? I ask because it seems that you would be attempting to help him solve his "problem" by doing so.

I've told him I don't want him to use me to cut her out

I guess that I'm not understanding how he could use you to cut her out; can you please explain?

[foggydew]

Meili, you may be right. It is what I understood from reading the triangle literature... .not taking sides but putting the responsibility back in his field after he has unloaded his feelings a bit.
To cut her out means in this context for me to keep her out of the conversation, make her feel isolated, at a disadvantage because she is sitting there listening to us talking and understands nothing. He feels stronger then. If I am physically there I can prevent it, but if we are on the phone... .
He is coming here today, alone. Hope we can really talk about some things. At the moment everyone is giving him advice and ultimatums, and I just wonder where he is in all this. He has lost his driving licence and then his job... .alcohol. A lot of his actions seem to be either an attempt to fit in or the opposite, rebellion.

[foggydew]

Waiting for him to come... .I don't feel happy, pleased, just full of fear. I would so like to get back to being detached and on top of things again. I just don't know why I can't.

[Meili]

Being stuck is hard. I struggle with it as well. The 10 Beliefs that can you get stuck might have some useful information for you. I suspect that number 9 is relevant to you.

Several of them apply to me. 

[foggydew]

Meili, you are right. Stuck I am, probably exactly where you say. However, not completely without reason. He lost his driving licence, lost his job through partying with his 'girlfriend'. His 'friends' have attacked her viciously (she hardly realised because she was so drunk) and try to get him to leave her. No- one likes her, and he should not go places with her where his friends are. Today I took him to a hospital so he can begin therapy for alcohol addiction. They told him to keep busy during his wait for a place in the hospital ... .we were going to take a language course together , but it was cancelled. If he talks to normal people (ie non addicted half way intelligent people) you can see him orientating himself to that way of thinking. Most people don't bother with him. He says he wants contact to me. He is really important to me, although I am trying to step back emotionally. This therapy is a chance... if he blows it, and he may, with this really stupid woman (alcoholic, been in jail, recently sentenced again), he is lost. I can't leave completely right now.

[Meili]

HI!

I'm not suggesting that you leave completely, just get unstuck and become non-attached. You can still protect yourself and help him as much as you are comfortable.

It's good to hear that he's at least trying to make positive changes in his life!

[foggydew]

He is really trying - he spent some time here with me when he had to go to the police about losing his licence. Maybe half of what he said was him just saying what he thinks I want to hear. I have to get myself under control concerning his girlfriend. If she is what he wants, then it has to play out. He says it's better than nothing. I can't save him from anything, I can only try and be here and protect myself. This is proving pretty difficult, being constantly alone is tough.

[foggydew]

And he has now put up a social media account for her with a photo of them both ... .and asked me to be a friend. Now what can I do?

[Skip]

And he has now put up a social media account for her with a photo of them both ... .and asked me to be a friend. Now what can I do?

This is a minor unrelated event - I wouldn't get hung up on it one way or the other.

You are in the role of anti-girlfriend resource - and you don't think shr is goof for him so it's easy to cast you in that role. The reason this social media request is bothering you is because it is pro-girfriend on some small level.

My advise is to become girlfriend neutral. Not easy, I know, because you are trying to help your friend get sober, but if you don't you will forever be caught up in his impulsive and fickle emotions toward her. I assume you didn't read the Karpman triangle link above, but I really recommend it. It will paint this for you in clear terms.

What is happening is that when they fight, rather than him facing her to resolve the conflict, he calls you to tell him that he is right and she is bad. By doing this, you escalate the confict between them.

You are likely misreading all this to think he really wants out of the relationship. He doesn't. He has made that clear to everyone. But he does want you to side with him when they fight so that he feels better about himself.

Next time he calls you and says he wants out ask him what happened (listen to him), don't take sides, tell him to sit down and talk to her. He will likely tell you he can't because she is awful - don't take the bait. You can say, I don't know what more to tell you.

Make sense?

[foggydew]

Yes, it makes sense. Of course. It would be easier if he didn't have a malignant streak where he is out to shock and hurt, where people (me included) walk into his carefully set up traps. That is why I get so confused, because, yes, I have read the triangle literature, and I do try to take the middle line. Don't always succeed. Even this social media set up is a warped game... .half her friends are just random arabic speaking people, the rest persons who don't actually like the lady in question. She is also a victim. Anyway, I will ignore it and carry on as usual. Thanks, Skip. In these confusing mind games support helps me greatly.

[foggydew]

The dance goes on. He has told everyone he wants out, posted her attempts at contact in social media, locked the door, turned off the phone... .called me and told me she can jump up and down, he doesn't care. I just listened. At first I was relieved though not happy at his methods... .but now I seem to be expecting the happy photo again. Wish I could get it off my mind.

[foggydew]

I don't know how much of this I want to see. He assures me she means nothing, tells everyone how stupid she is, posts and tells friends intimate details, assures us all it is over, then befriends her relatives and seems to be back with her. He invited me down, and I told him I don't want to meet her or be in their way, as it is their relationship. He says he has his priorities right and she won't be there. That I shouldn't worry. That he has time for me.
In the meantime other friends have seen his awful postings and he has lost so much sympathy and respect. I wanted to try and help him through the rehab time, but I don't know if I can. Others are withdrawing too.