Next joint session with Psychologist is to plan future to "stabilize marriage"

[formflier]

There is no possible way to adequately capture the bizareness of of some of the things my wife has said or twisted in joint and single sessions with the Psychologist.

Also no possible way to adequately describe the skill and delicate touch at the P applied pressure... .soothed... wondered aloud about things... .spoke directly. 

Several times she said to my wife "I am your biggest advocate... ."

I have my individual session tomorrow where I should get more feedback.

Zero chance that my wife will agree to any sort of long term individual sessions with her.  She has "quit" a couple times and said she will not go back.  I didn't react... .but also didn't let her off the hook for her commitments.

The funniest one was her trying to claim that when she agreed to come with me "a few times" that she was agreeing to go to the sessions she had already attended... .and not any future sessions.

Somehow I avoided busting out laughing, and evenly told her that she was making a preposterous statement, that I would take her backing out as a statement about her value of me and our relationship.  She tried to engage is debate and I declined... .and went for a walk. 

Couple hours later she said she would follow through on her commitments and go.

At one point the P said "Honey... .I'm not trying to get in your head.  I need your help to understand how my treatment of FF is going."  Imagine a grandma saying that as she had cookies and milk available, sort of a "it's going to be alright tone"  My wife visibly relaxed after that.

As we left that P said  "FF wife... .let's at least have one more joint get together to wrap all this up and make sure we are all on the same page"  My wife didn't agree or disagree... .but again seemed to relax.

We had a joint phone call with P in room with my wife and I and our team of attorney's (for the legal matter I have ongoing).  Attorney's clarified my wife would not be involved... .that P would not be involved and that there was no way to imagine how they would have anything to add to legal matter. 

L said that we could focus on the process of therapy without wondering/worrying about that getting drug into court.


I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that P will want to bring my wife in once a month or so to "touch base" and when anxiety level goes down a bit, that she will dip her toe in the waters of individual therapy then.

Right now anxiety is too high and too much distrust of motives of everyone. 

FF

[KateCat]

The skill of a good psychologist--what a marvel! And to think of doing what they do in real time too.

I imagine your wife is afraid both to go to session and not to go to session. And that that struggle will be an ongoing one. But it seems you're doing just fine in response to the uncertainty and the necessarily delicate pacing of the counseling.

Thank you for posting this description of the joint meeting. The statement, "I am your biggest advocate" is particularly striking to me. It's very, very hard to know what to say to a person voicing paranoid sentiments.

[formflier]

 
So the P walked a fine line of saying that her goal was to stabilize marriage... .without pointing any fingers at who was destabilizing it... .also without giving anyone a clean bill of health.

Time and time again she tried to shift focus away from us as a couple or individuals to "family stability".  Sort of a "it's not because you need this... .but because your family needs this approach"  Wife was and is very suspicious.

Yes when asked directly what she wanted to do... .or an outcome... .she shrugged her shoulders and said she didn't know.  Honestly sounded defeated when she said that... .

FF

[empath]

"Family stability" probably puts responsibility on her and feels like she is at fault.

I've gone through the "help me understand how therapy with husband is going", too - because my husband couldn't think of anything that he needed to work on with the P. He thought I would be seeing her regularly; she didn't need to talk with me more after the one session, at least for now.

Honestly, from what I've heard my husband say, it sounds like he has a 'feeling' that something is 'wrong' with him emotionally, but he isn't sure what it is, except it is bad. He has been resistant to being really open even with his P, from what I can tell. He doesn't want to be the one who 'needs fixing' or who 'is the problem'. It's easier if I'm the one with the problem. It reminds me of the people who have dementia or Alzheimer's when they get really anxious about the fact that they don't remember things and know that they should be able to.

Planning seems hard for my husband, too - or maybe just the follow through part of that. Seems to be easier for him to be told what to do so he can avoid responsibility for the instability.

[Harri]

Hi FF.  I'm so glad you have such a supportive and skilled P to work with. 

I know you have worked with your P on techniques to help the kids and have been doing well.  I am curious though if she has any plans to address the clear parental alienation that is occurring in your home.  The way your wife belittles you and talks to you is unacceptable and is abusive not just to you but your kids as well (IMO more so for the kids).  I just wonder if there is any way to slip something in there while you wife is actually attending seesions.  or do you think that would push things too much?

Wishing you the very best FF.

[KateCat]

If your psychologist has mentioned "wrapping things up" in one more joint session, is that a clue that this phase of the counseling may be coming to an end?

If that's the case, do you suspect that the next phase will be some nitty-gritty practical guidance for you specifically?

[empath]

Another thought: my husband has expressed the feeling that stable is boring... . his life is 'interesting' at least in his opinion. Maybe FFw thinks this way, too - or any stable that requires her not to 'express' her emotions is boring and not 'real'.

[Notwendy]

Kate Cat made an interesting point about the P possibly wrapping things up and working with you. If she does that, it may be that she feels it is more effective to work on your marriage through working with you, if your wife is paranoid and resistant.

Stable may feel "boring" to some. In our 12 step groups we talk about being addicted to drama. No drugs or alcohol required for that. For some people, the drama is stimulating. One topic is emotional sobriety- where we don't pick up the drama the way someone might choose to not pick up a drink.

I think depending on the person, the process of looking inward through T is just too much for them, or denial is strongly at play, especially if someone has a poor sense of self.

It could be that the P decides that FF is the person in the marriage that is more amenable to work with. That doesn't mean his wife doesn't need the T, but that she may be so resistant to it that the effort to help the marriage would be more effective with FF.

[formflier]

Totally guessing here... .but I think I know the P pretty well.  My guess is that she wants to "end" on a good note and leave her in a good place to come back, perhaps in a month... .perhaps as needed. 

The choice of keeping her going weekly or on a schedule would, IMO... .keep a bunch of pressure on her.  She doesn't deal well with pressure.

I certainly have some practical questions to ask today and at a minimum it is good for my P to see how she twists things.  She has done that to a couple things the P said.  For instance, my wife took a statement from me about being ok with doing something for her around the house to be... ."I will do this if you will do "Y"  "... . 

The P took about 5 minutes to clarify (calm down) my wife that there was NO LINKAGE.  Honestly wife didn't acknowledge it... but calmed.  P has said similar things and had wife "link" them.

Privately the P has explained that's what paranoid people do.  Create linkages where none exist.  They tend not to be ok with "blank space" and they fill it with links and confusion.

FF

[KateCat]

Privately the P has explained [ . . . ] what paranoid people do.  Create linkages where none exist.  They tend not to be ok with "blank space" and they fill it with links and confusion.

Often specifically paranoid links that lead back to them. I believe one term is "ideas of reference."

I'm going to guess that your psychologist has most of the data on your wife that she needs now. By fortuitous circumstance, she even got to listen in on some dialogue involving lawsuit activity! (Lawsuits and paranoia go hand in glove, in my world.)

Now it is likely that her task turns to you, to help you deal.

A question for you: You've mentioned frequently that it is hard for you not to laugh at some of your wife's statements. Do you think laughter is in any way a form of not quite facing the facts yet? Of your mind's attempt to minimize? I really, really understand that this stuff could seem laughable. For me, at least, the sense of tragedy overwhelms other feelings.

[formflier]

  For me, at least, the sense of tragedy overwhelms other feelings.

Tragedy... .that is a very accurate word for what I feel.  Off to my session. 

Talk to you guys later.

FF

[Verbena]

Tragedy... .that is a very accurate word for what I feel

I feel the same about my situation.  I watched my ex-husband for years make choices about his behavior that slowly but surely moved us toward divorce.  He couldn't see it, or he wouldn't see it.  He wouldn't acknowledge it and he wouldn't change it. 

And now here we are.  At this point, he is doing the same thing with his daughter--refusing to be accountable for his behavior toward her,  staying away from his grandson, and apparently making plans to run away to another state where he can re-write history and pretend that none of the destruction he caused ever even happened.

It's a tragedy.  That's exactly what it is.   

[formflier]

The session went pretty much at KateCat indicated.  P has seen more than enough.

Likely we'll do an extra session this week and due to schedule there will not be a "couples" session this Friday.  That's good.  Will give us some breathing and planning room.

Takeaways:  No doubt.  I am THE object of her paranoia.  I am THE bad one.  ALL others are good, HE is bad.  No good left in FF (from her point of view).

My wife is trying to compensate by asking God to "help her love me" in spite of my badness.  She will not let anything in her mind that challenges the bedrock truth... .HE IS BAD.

Time and time again she has "focused on doing the right thing" with disastrous results.

It's not all bad news (just mostly... .sigh).  She does see value in family stability and doing things "for the children".

Anything that is "for her husband"... .no chance.

As the temperature comes down (hopefully as legal things get resolved over next few months)... .history can be rewritten and we can revisit some issues.

Basically... .right now she is powder keg in room full of burning candles.

More later,

FF

[empath]

Time and time again she has "focused on doing the right thing" with disastrous results.

My h said something similar -- he keeps trying to do the right thing but it keeps getting worse. (and I'm not rescuing him now)

The linkage thing and twisting is tricky to work with. Grey areas are uncomfortable, too, so that can be filled in with the twists as well.

FF, do you know if she has any plans or ideas to separate/ divorce?

[HopefulDad]

FF, I know you have a lot going through your mind right now.  Take all the time you need to sort everything out in your head.

Just a side note: asking God to "help her love you"... .this holier-than-thou attitude was grating when I had to put up with it.  If you decide to stick it out with her and learn to let this attitude slide, I'll be in awe.

[formflier]

Just a side note: asking God to "help her love you"... .this holier-than-thou attitude was grating when I had to put up with it.  If you decide to stick it out with her and learn to let this attitude slide, I'll be in awe.

Yeah... .I am generally a conservative Baptist.  I take the Bible very seriously (generally this means I take it literally).  Basically... .if it plainly says something don't look for extra meaning.  By the same token, don't add stuff.  If something is said once or twice... .that kind of lets you know how important it is, otherwise God would have emphasized it much more.  Note:  That doesn't mean blow it off... .just have proper perspective.

Time and time again Jesus emphasized showing grace and love (perhaps he was making a point!   )

So to focus on a one liner and claim I am a sinner because I don't do "x"... .and not show grace in the process of telling me that.  Kinda leads me to believe you missed the "point" of the entire book.

The "brand" of Baptist that my wife gravitates towards... .and I don't like... .really likes to put God in charge of doing good things and "sinners" in charge of doing bad things.

How this plays out in a relationship is that I get credit for bad things, but any "good" decision I make is only because God intervened and changed my heart.  I get no credit for making a good decision.

Maddening to deal with... .

FF

[formflier]

 
FF, do you know if she has any plans or ideas to separate/ divorce?

Doubtful.  She has ideations that I do from time to time.  Generally divorce threats are gone from our r/s.  Once I stopped engaging on that issue... .it pretty much dried up.

The "brand" of Baptist she is focused on does NOT condone divorce... .pretty much for any reason.  

In other words... .if I went and had an affair... .and then asked for forgiveness... .she would "have to" take me back.



FF

[empath]

How this plays out in a relationship is that I get credit for bad things, but any "good" decision I make is only because God intervened and changed my heart.  I get no credit for making a good decision.

Right, you can't make a good decision because you are a sinner and apart from God, you can't do anything good on your own. IMHO, this creates a weird 'spiritual' victim mentality; my husband was raised in that kind of environment (that type of Baptist). He blames God for a lot of his problems because God isn't helping him... .  Or at least he did until someone said that he needed to forgive God, and I explained that didn't necessarily mean that God sinned.

I can't tell him this because he needs to be 'holier' than I am. He also thinks my having boundaries is sinful.

The "brand" of Baptist she is focused on does NOT condone divorce... .pretty much for any reason.

I thought that was probably the case, and she can't do that without 'sinning' which would make her less holy. Forgiveness is her 'get out of jail card.'


It's frustrating to deal with as a spouse... . 

[formflier]

It's frustrating to deal with as a spouse... . 

Frustrating is a very polite way to put it... .   

Funny story:  Several years ago the church we were going to at the time (more of my "brand" of Baptist) was doing several couples Bible study classes.

One of them was a video and reading series on "Boundaries" the book by Townsend and Cloud.  I had never heard of these guys.  My wife pushed hard for us to go... .honestly... I was a bit reluctant.  A couple sessions in my wife was wanting to quit (zero enthusiasm) and I thought it was pretty cool.  I devoured the book and wanted to put it all into practice.

She did complete the study... .but is reluctant to talk about it. 

Sigh... .

FF

[empath]

A few years ago, my husband bought Boundaries in Marriage as a Valentine's Day gift; he thought it would help our marriage. As we read it, he was just confused about the whole concept and thinks of boundaries as punishments. I, on the other hand, found it very helpful.

And here we are... .  oh well... .

[formflier]

 
Do you think he was confused... .or "got it" but didn't like it?

My wife understood that she would have less access... .less say because I would be taking on responsibility for things that were mine.

FF

[empath]

He both didn't like it, and he couldn't understand the concept behind it.

He didn't like the boundaries because it restricted him in some way, and he couldn't understand how he wasn't being punished. In a way, it was difficult for him to understand the idea of a person having a sense of themselves.

Currently, he thinks that they are attempts to control his behavior. (because there is blank space... .)

[formflier]

Interesting next step has been identified by P and me.

My P is a Christian and we do spend a good deal of time discussing Christian principles.

The next step is that I will write a letter to the Biblical counselor asking for a meeting with him and his superiors to discuss judgments that he made during counseling and that my wife seems to be clinging to

Biblical principle is that once you have talked to someone individually about an issue, you bring in others.  Biblical problem solving.

Matthew 18:16 " But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses"

Will take a week or so to create and review letter.

My wife is asserting several things and using BC's words as her "proof" or "truth".

1.  BC said:  "FF, there is no physical or mental reason you can not hold a full time job"  I challenged him on this and he blamed me for his lack of knowledge.  I wrote him a letter after that asking him to focus counseling on Biblical matters which he was an expert in and stay away from topics where he had no professional credentials.  He flat out refused.  In hindsight, I should have quit counseling at this point.  The impact on my relationship is my wife's view that I tricked her and "the system" to be a "stay at home mom" and "make her" go to work.  Basically... .that I am not disabled.


2.  That BC "cleared her" and declared me dangerous.  My wife has been showing an email around from BC saying that I need counseling and medication so I don't "snap" and referencing that I said in counseling I was worried about "snapping".  I did say that, but BC twisted in and presented it totally out of context.  BC was saying I was sinful for walking away from my wife when she is abusive.  When he asked me why I did that I said I was responsible for my behavior and I worried that if my wife was in my facing yelling at me and poking at me that I "might snap", so better for me to be responsible and remove myself from that situation.  There is no context or mention of my wife's behavior in his email.  Only that I worry I may "snap".

More later

FF

[Fian]

So what do you expect to accomplish?  Do you expect there to be a decision that you can communicate to your wife?  Do you think that would help?  Are you trying to reprimand the BC so that he doesn't harm future couples like he did with you?

[formflier]

Yes... .yes... .and yes.   Will write more later. 

Big goal is to obtain clarity. 

FF

[KateCat]

My wife has been showing an email around from BC saying that I need counseling and medication so I don't "snap" . . . .

Oh dear. This is what I would expect your wife to do, based on what you have described as her past behaviors.

Is the goal to convince your wife of anything, or is the goal to protect you legally, and protect your standing in the community?

[formflier]

Is the goal to convince your wife of anything, or is the goal to protect you legally, and protect your standing in the community?

I'm going to stick with clarity... .I'm not going to convince my wife of anything... .but I am not going to "protect" her against the truth.

Part of  clarity is to get in writing if her use of the materials provided to her in BC are being used as intended.  In other words they can clarify if they intended the email to be used as "proof" that I am dangerous... .can't be trusted with kids... .etc etc.

There is another goal or "concern".  If the church demonstrates humility and restricts their opinion to Biblical matters (vice medical) then I can likely tolerate future involvement with them.  If they refuse to follow Biblical guidance and meet as a group (the Matthew model) or if they are brazen enough to put in writing that their judgments overrule medical determinations of disability, then I don't see how I can have future involvement with such a church... .or how I could give my blessing to my wife or kids being involved.

Back to convincing my wife.  Sure... .deep down there is a hope that she will see the light.   There is hope that others will see the light as well.  That is an unlikely byproduct of this process.

My wife is fully well capable of ignoring written guidance about intent of use of information.  After all, I have the power to turn people against her.

She does respect this church.  A more likely outcome is that she will respect their guidance on behavior (stop parading around the emails to  prove FF bad)... .in other words she will stop doing that, while deep down still praying for the church to "see the light" about how bad I am.

That won't fix anything, but life will be more tolerable for me.

Again... .that is not primary goal... .but it certainly is in the mix.

FF

[KateCat]

Oof! Paranoia can weave such a complicated web. I am sorry that you are in the midst of this but glad that you sound fully informed of the situation.

[empath]

I was a bit concerned about the combination of her insistence on Biblical counseling and the disability determination and her ongoing complaints about your not working... .  It seemed like she might have an ulterior motive.

Who is she showing the email to? Is she trying to begin the process of church discipline against you?

As you know, I'm all for speaking directly to the people involved, then moving on from there and involving the appropriate other people. Is your P going to review your letter? I think it is challenging to get just the right words to convey the message appropriately.

[formflier]

To breakdown the next steps.  The next step for me is to get the letter written and go to next session with it.  Want to make sure it is focused and non-accusatory.

Once P and I are ok with letter, then send the letter.  Certainly we will look at the situation before sending it, but I'm doubtful that there is anything out there that could change the need or decision to send a letter.  Certainly I'm open to timing

It is up in the air whether "paranoia" will be addressed in the letter.  A previous BC listed that as his "top observation" about my wife and her behaviors.  In his written list he put paranoia in quotes and put it in context like this:

"As hard as FF wife went after him about having affairs and being involved with other women I assumed that FF had an affair at some point.  However, despite repeated and thorough questioning no proof or evidence of any kind of an affair was ever produced."

"Very suspicious of FF's actions and motivations to the point of "paranoia"  "

The last BC addressed it by saying "So... .FF's wife is paranoid... . Now, let's study our Bible"  After that the few times I brought it up to figure out when it would be addressed I was admonished for being selfish with counseling time when I should be focused on loving and understanding my wife.

My guess is that we will leave any references to paranoia out of the letter.  In fact, I'm going to have to focus on a couple "worst things" for the letter, vice any sore of comprehensive list... .comprehensive would be way too long.

FF