Power of attorney in fact?

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

Hi legal board, I need some advice.

My father passed away several years ago and left everything to my elderly BPD mother. When he was ill, I pushed to have some legal work done in case she was left on her own and needed help. This was met with resistance. BPD mother would trust a total stranger more than she would trust me.

I pretty much backed off and left her to do whatever she chose to do with her affairs, as trying to advise or intervene was futile. She consults her hairdresser and cab drivers for financial management advice. She trusts them more than her family or people certified to manage finances). One of her friends is  a paralegal and so is assisting her with a new will and power of attorney.

My mother is very secretive and has ordered family and friends not to speak to me without her permission. She maintains privacy and control over many things. However, although I am her black child, I am also the one most geographically near her, and have proved my stability- I have a job, raised a family. I would handle any thing of hers carefully and ethically ( don't want that Karma) and she knows that. But she wouldn't hesitate to  pull something over on me.

I recently got an e mail from the friend asking me for my signature as power of attorney in fact. This makes sense as she should designate someone reliable to do this. However, all I received was the signature page, not the document. I called the friend at work to ask about this. I had no idea this was coming my way.

Friend never called back but mom did. Saying, oh the friend asked me to call you. ( my take is that she doesn't have permission to speak to me). Mom said they need the signature first, then when mom sees the documents, she decides to release them. She says " oh just go ahead and sign them".

Ok so my hair is standing on end here. I do not mind being mother's power of attorney, but no way will I sign something legal- just the signature page for a document I don't get to see and a paralegal I don't get to talk to. I don't put anything past my mother and I have this creepy feeling she is pulling something because she isn't transparent. My "manipulation" radar is on!

I know the legal people here can't tell me what this is all about, as they can not see the document, but what hot water can someone get into by being power of attorney in fact, and what kind of legal process asks people to sign a document they can't see the entirety of?

Any information would be helpful.

Thanks in advance for your help.

[Notwendy]

Hi legal board, I need some advice.

My father passed away several years ago and left everything to my elderly BPD mother. When he was ill, I pushed to have some legal work done in case she was left on her own and needed help. This was met with resistance. BPD mother would trust a total stranger more than she would trust me.

I pretty much backed off and left her to do whatever she chose to do with her affairs, as trying to advise or intervene was futile. She consults her hairdresser and cab drivers for financial management advice. She trusts them more than her family or people certified to manage finances). One of her friends is  a paralegal and so is assisting her with a new will and power of attorney.

My mother is very secretive and has ordered family and friends not to speak to me without her permission. She maintains privacy and control over many things. However, although I am her black child, I am also the one most geographically near her, and have proved my stability- I have a job, raised a family. I would handle any thing of hers carefully and ethically ( don't want that Karma) and she knows that. But she wouldn't hesitate to  pull something over on me.

I recently got an e mail from the friend asking me for my signature as power of attorney in fact. This makes sense as she should designate someone reliable to do this. However, all I received was the signature page, not the document. I called the friend at work to ask about this. I had no idea this was coming my way.

Friend never called back but mom did. Saying, oh the friend asked me to call you. ( my take is that she doesn't have permission to speak to me). Mom said they need the signature first, then when mom sees the documents, she decides to release them. She says " oh just go ahead and sign them".

Ok so my hair is standing on end here. I do not mind being mother's power of attorney, but no way will I sign something legal- just the signature page for a document I don't get to see and a paralegal I don't get to talk to. I don't put anything past my mother and I have this creepy feeling she is pulling something because she isn't transparent. My "manipulation" radar is on!

I know the legal people here can't tell me what this is all about, as they can not see the document, but what hot water can someone get into by being power of attorney in fact, and what kind of legal process asks people to sign a document they can't see the entirety of?

Any information would be helpful.

Thanks in advance for your help.

[Notwendy]

The form asked for my specimen signature. My mother says they need the signature before they can complete the papers for her review?

This makes no sense to me. Why can they not just draw the papers she wants and then have us read them and sign them. I did this several years ago, in the presence of her lawyer, and the papers in front of me. I see where they are saving me the trip to go do this, but what is bothering me is that I can't even talk to them to ask what I am signing and mom is pushing me to do this.

She is elderly but in good health. There isn't any urgency. Presumably she still has the papers I signed a while back with her other lawyer in the meantime.

[GaGrl]

Just tell her you need the full document so you can sign and then I ritual each page. If she protests, repeat ad nauseum.

I wouldn't sign anything without seeing the full document.

[Naughty Nibbler]

HEY NotWendy: 

I agree with Gagr. I wouldn't sign anything without seeing the document it pertains to.

My parents recently passed in California.  They had gone to a lawyer and had a living trust drawn up, along with a financial POA and a medical POA.  My sister and I didn't know the specifics, until the time we had to use both power of attorneys.  We didn't have to sign anything.  Our parent's had notarized signatures on the documents. We first viewed everything, when we had to exercise the medical POA's for both parents at the same time, then the financial POA's

When we brought the financial POA to the bank, we had to sign signature cards for them to verify our signatures.

Laws or practices can differ from state to state. I did find the following quote from a Google search that appears to apply to some other states

"In many states, including New York, the agent is now required to sign the power of attorney document so it’s typical for the person named as the agent to be present"
https://www.nationalnotary.org/notary-bulletin/blog/2012/07/powers-of-attorney-how-to-handle-them

There can be multiple people named on the POA.  Just because you are named, doesn't mean you have to accept the responsibility when the time comes to use it.

[GaGrl]

I have POA for my mother, had it for my Dad before he passed. In their state, my signature was not required.  I just received a copies of the executed documents from their attorney, for my own records.

[Notwendy]

Thanks, the whole thing seemed unusually strange to me on a couple of parts. I heard nothing about this until the e mail appeared in my mail. So, of course, my first instinct is to call the paralegal friend at the office number listed to see what it was about.

That checked out and the secretary at the office took a message from me.

The second thing that was strange was that the paralegal didn't call me back. Later my mother did and it dawned on me that the paralegal didn't call me back- but called my mother first. Then my mother took over and told me some story about how the paralegal didn't want to confuse me and it was best to speak to my mother.

Secrecy is typical of her and she often lies to me. She's lied to me so many times, that even if she was telling me the truth, I could not believe her completely.

She gravitates towards disordered people and has an odd friendship with this woman who seems a bit shady to me. My mother should not be on her own. On the spectrum of BPD she is quite severe. My mother appears to be an adult but emotionally she is about four years old and was completely dependent on my father.


I tried to intervene when my father was sick and no longer able to keep an eye on her, but to do so exposed her disorder and both my parents got angry at me. I also tried to help them move to a retirement/assisted living center- and they had the money to do so at the time because I didn't think it was wise to leave them both alone, and my mother alone, but they refused that as well.

IMHO, it was not the best decision to leave my mother alone and after what I went through with them, I know that I could not help care for her and keep my peace of mind. The only reason she has been able to live on her own is that my father left her a lot of money and she has been able to hire caretakers. However, she has poor judgment and many of them have taken advantage of her. She also mismanages money. She has hinted that her savings account has diminished.

Trying to help when my father was sick resulted in them both raging and emotionally abusing me. It was the drama triangle- I would step in to help manage the chaos, they would see me as persecutor. Mom would play victim, dad would rescue her. For my own sanity, I had to walk away from this. By the time my father died, they had disowned me. It was later that my mother had their lawyer put me back in their papers and I went to his office to sign whatever I needed to sign. I think he has retired, and now my mother is doing something with this friend, but if the friend can not speak to me on a professional basis, something seems odd here. It is possible that someone is pulling something over on my mother, but I have no control of that. She made her choices.

Thanks for both of your advice. The first time I signed any papers about POA, I did so in a lawyers office with the lawyer explaining everything to me. I agree to not sign anything. In fact, if they were to send me something complete to sign, I am considering paying a lawyer on my own to read them first. I don't trust her, or her friend.

[ForeverDad]

I don't know the procedures and rules for which signatures are required for such legal documents but asking for a signature without reviewing the rest of the document smells bad and I would suspect a scam or other nefarious purpose that will come back to bite you.

In addition, knowing the risks with her from past interactions, you'd need the pages numbered and need to place your initials on each page as well to make it harder for pages to be swapped out.

[Notwendy]

I agree and I thank you all for support.

There are several pages to this document and I was only sent the signature page at the back.

Since this came to me in an e mail ( with no previous discussion) and my mother was CC'd on it, I replied only to her telling her that I don't sign anything legal without seeing an entire document and being able to speak to the lawyer about any questions I may have.

I don't know what this woman ( friend)  is up to, but it seems fishy and my mother is so disordered I have no idea about what she thinks or tells me. Ironically, of any of the people in my mother's circle, I would have handled my parents' affairs ethically and in her best interest. I would have done that just because that is who I am, and that I think it would have been what my father wanted- to not have her be left to deal with these things alone. But I think we all have been down that road where the closest family member is treated with suspicion, and a total stranger painted white. Her will prevailed. As a result, she is in charge of the decisions she makes.

For my own sanity, I had to let go of what I wanted for them and let them make their own decision. I don't want to be involved with whatever this is.

Thanks for the advice and support and I appreciate any words of wisdom.

[Waddams]

I'm glad you didn't sign.  It sounds bad.  I know she's your mother, but she's making her own bed and you can't fix tings for her.  Might be better just to tell her that she committed to her course a long time ago and cut you out of things, now she has to live with the consequences and continnue to leave you out of things.

I know it's hard, but I'd advise you to look after yourself first and let her deal with the fallout of the decisions she has made.

[Notwendy]

let her deal with the fallout of the decisions she has made.

I agree. That is exactly what I decided after my father died and they had in essence, disowned me. The hardest part for me emotionally was not knowing if this was her idea, or my father's idea. Functionally, it made no difference, the two of them functioned as a single person. Whatever she wanted, is how things went in the family. But I couldn't believe that my father really felt that way about me, and I would not know for certain. She is my mother in the biological and theological sense but not emotional. She was not my mother in that sense to me when I was a child. By my early teens I was parentified. However, she is elderly and alone, and not a threat to me like she was when I was a child. I can't rescue her from her own decisions, however, should she not be able to manage things, I would agree to be POW for that. I know she would not give up any control otherwise.

At first she was quite pleased with herself to have separated me from herself and her FOO, but over time, I think she has realized that cutting me off was not in her own best interest. She did write me back into the will and arrange for POW papers, which I signed in the presence of her lawyer. I have no interest in her assets or possessions but wanted to do the right thing if she was not able to manage herself.

I would think it was great to tell her she committed to this course a long time ago, but I know that this doesn't work with her. The only thing that has worked with her is that over the years is that she has faced the consequences of her decisions that my father protected her from in the past. I've read a lot about the various pwBPD on this board and to me, she is one of the most affected of them. When she is faced with something she did that she may be ashamed or angry about, she doesn't just rage. She dissociates to the point where her brain wipes it out of her consciousness and literally becomes a different person. It's the strangest thing I have ever seen. Then she flies into a huge rage, and when it is over, it is like her brain has erased itself. She has no memory of the event. So not bringing things up isn't a form of WOE, it is futile. For decades, she was allowed to get her way in order to keep the peace. She has few other ways to relate to people beyond either manipulation or raging. However, neither of them work with me. She is slowly learning that.

So she received my boundary: I don't sign anything without the full document and access to a real lawyer, not this friend of hers. So far, I have not heard from the law office yet but if I do, and I receive something, before I consider signing anything, I will have a lawyer of my own involved as well.

Thanks for everyone's advice and support with this. I am not a lawyer and so not experienced with these kinds of things, but it seems unprofessional to get a document to sign and not have the document.

[Notwendy]

I received the whole document and it appears to be a standard POE form.

There are pros and cons to agreeing to this. The pros are that someone without bad intent would be managing her finances in the event that she isn't able to. I would be invested in doing this as I do not want harm to come to her if she is not capable and that what she owns is due to my father's work and that means something to me. Because of her mental instability and tendency to trust total strangers, giving POA to one of them would not be wise. She is sharp enough to know that. She has figured out that her children are her safest option, even though she has behaved otherwise.

I have looked into this and a POA isn't liable for her debts. Her bank has my signature on file for a checking/savings account and her safe deposit box, but I am not listed as a joint owner of her accounts, so there has not been any tax reportings for me. I have not been a cosigner for any loans, lines of credit, or credit cards. So I believe I am not in a position for anyone to come after me for any debts she may have.

One risk is that siblings could accuse me of not using her money in her best interest. I don't think they would do that, but I know to be a careful book keeper.

A concern of mine is that she often doesn't tell the truth. At this point, I don't trust a thing she tells me. Does the POE also include consents to speak to the people involved? The form includes financial and medical POE which I assume means I can speak to them if I have questions. Or do I need to ask her to sign consents to her lawyer, doctor and social worker before I agree to sign? I wouldn't abuse this, but I can't make decisions without knowing what is going on with her.

Advice or comments are appreciated.

[Naughty Nibbler]

NotWendy:

My parent's POA's were separate for financial and medical.  There could be some variation and certain things included or excluded (per an individual's wishes).  The best thing to do is to examine the entire POA and ask any questions, to make sure you understand the intent and specifics of her specific POA.

Make sure you have a copy of the document (s).  If you can get a PDF file that would be great.  If you get a hard copy, you might want to scan it and keep a PDF file handy (as well as a couple of printouts in your files).  One thing to be aware of is the the POA is supposed to cease to exist upon someone's death.  My mom was the last to pass.  When we knew she was days away from death, we had to make some fast moves to get her funeral paid for in advance.  My parents had prepaid burial plots, but not the funeral.  Just something to think of.  Insurance money takes some time to acquire.  My mom happened to die on the day we visited the cemetery to plan her funeral.  We were able to get a cashier's check from the bank on that day.    

You might want to check with the bank where you are on a joint account, to see what needs to be done at the time of your mom's dealth.  I'm thinking that "joint" capabilities will cease upon her death.  Some people might be successful with sneaking some transactions past the bank, until the bank becomes aware that she has passed, but we followed the rules.  

My parents had two different banks.  Each financial entity handles things differently.  Some can be difficult to deal with. You can take the same POA to two different banks and one can be easy to deal with and the other can have a lot of red tape and make you jump through a lot of hoops to get the POA recognized.  My parent's POA's were 20 years old.  I've heard that some banks want a POA form from them.  It might not hurt to check with your mom's main financial institutions, but if your mom likes to hold secrets, you may have to discover info. about all her financial holdings after her death.

In my situation, both my sister and I were "co" on the financial POA.  If more than one agent is listed on a POA, you need to pay close attention to the wording.  The use of "or" & "and" or mention of a certain order of possible agents listed, needs to be understood. There can be variables. My parent's financial POA had a list of categories, that they fully authorized.  Unless something is excluded from the financial POA, it could cover all possible financial actions (sell real estate, make a loan, etc.)  A financial entity would interact with you in the same manner they would with your mom.

On my parent's medical POA's, they listed some specific wishes.  (i.e. to not be kept alive if there was no hope for any degree of meaningful life).  The POA affords the medical staff to fully inform you of all medical info. (as it would with a minor child and a parent).

One risk is that siblings could accuse me of not using her money in her best interest. I don't think they would do that, but I know to be a careful book keeper.

Keep good records.  It could be beneficial if you have some sort of shared files that your siblings can view online.  You never know how relatives will react, which can be the opposite to what you might expect.

[Notwendy]

This is great advice. I have the POA document. I do not have her will. She did agree to let me speak to her lawyer and I will ask what arrangements are made for the POA if she is deceased. Thank you so much for this advice.

You are fortunate your parents allowed you to be proactive. I had actually tried to get all these things arranged when my father was ill. I knew that if he was not able to manage their finances, that all would be chaotic. But my mother had a fit and refused to let me be involved. As my father's condition deteriorated, all was chaos. At this point, Mom was in total control of all of it- his medical, their financial.

I didn't expect she would approach me to do what she once refused to let me do, so I am trying to learn as much as possible about what to do.

I agree with the open records with siblings. People get strange when it comes to money.

[martillo]

We have been dealing w these issues w in-laws - MIL, has strong BPD traits and is now in stage 6-7 of Alzheimer's... .FIL has strong NPD traits.  We are in TX and upon death the POA ceases and decision making/account access/access to important records goes to the next of kin and/or executor of the will.  UBPDh is on FIL bank account so will be able to continue to access funds.  MIL was removed when H was added because she really doesn't understand due to dementia.  Sounds like you are doing all the right research... .I would find out who is executor of her will though so if you are able you can be on the same page (if it is not already you).  FIL also named H as executor ... .it has been an interesting dynamic to watch playing out as there is much discord amongst the siblings.  H is the 3rd son to be named executor... .

[Notwendy]

This is the part that concerns me. I have already done this with her lawyer a few years ago, POW, executor of the will. I did this all in front of her lawyer and I have the papers.

The lawyer has retired, but as far as I know, the papers are still legitimate. Now, my mother feels a sudden need to do it all over again, with a lawyer, but through her "friend" the paralegal. When I told her I needed some time to get some information, she just freaked. Says she needs to get this done now so she has peace of mind. When I bring up concerns, she dismisses them, saying things like "anyone who isn't stupid would see that there is nothing wrong with these papers" and then urging me to sign them right away.

She isn't ill and I have her will and POE papers with me, from the lawyer. So I don't get the having to do this immediately.

She hesitated to let me call her social worker next week, but that is what I am going to do. It all seems too fishy to me. Either it is legit, and she's just not lucid, or something is up, but I don't intend to sign anything without speaking to her lawyer and social worker first.

If she has done a new will, I have not seen it and don't know who the executor is. Sibs also got the signature page to sign and nothing else and we knew nothing about this until getting those e mails.    And we are all wondering what this is about.

[Notwendy]

I received e mail from law firm saying they asked my mother to call me since they represent her. I guess they don't have consent to speak to me.

This isn't a lawsuit or divorce. If I am to be POA, then we are on the "same side". I told them I respected my mother's privacy but had some questions about the document and would appreciate speaking to a professional about them. If this requires she sign a consent, then she needs to do that.

In my FOO, I was expected to obey without question. But if they want my signature on a document, I want to be able to ask about what I am signing.

I haven't had many dealings with lawyers, thankfully, but have not been asked to sign something without being given the opportunity to ask questions about it. The last time we did these papers, it was out in the open with her lawyer. I had his card and could call him if I needed to- after all- the POA involved three of us: me, mom, him.

When I tell my mother I have questions, she dysregulates and makes no sense. Since she has a personal relationship with the paralegal, it is feeling more like the drama triangle than a legal transaction. When I asked for more information, to her I may have become the persecutor.

[Naughty Nibbler]

 Who would provide answers for you, the lawyer or the paralegal?

What I learned is that most lawyers won't talk to you for free.  A lawyer may give a potential client a brief initial interview for free, but after that, they are charging someone for their time.  The lawyer may have to get you mom's agreement to be billed for the time you might talk to the lawyer (or interact by email).  Some lawyers might agree to a very brief conversation, but the meter is running in most instances.

[Notwendy]

I did get to speak to the lawyer, with my mother present and presumably she will get charged for it. I think my mother realized that I wouldn't sign anything without speaking to the lawyer. The lawyer is overseeing this and this is just an additional charge to the time with my mother. I did find out why she wanted the papers redone and it was legit. It helped to speak to someone with clarity so that I understood the situation. I can't get a straight answer from my mother.

Mother is used to complete obedience from us no matter what. (she'd bring my father in to punish us if we didn't obey). So she is used to just giving me orders. Well, I think she is starting to figure out that we kids have boundaries and agreed to the lawyer doing this.  Also the lawyer may have realized it is not fair to ask us to sign something we don't understand. Got that part cleared up

Thanks for all the advice. This may have been a typical situation, but with mom and any friend of mom's in the mix, communications are dysfunctional. Me & lawyer was plain and clear and IMHO, worth paying for 30 minutes of time.

[ForeverDad]

One of my parents died a couple years ago.  My sibling was POA, DPA and executor.  Some accounts were closed when down to the final hours.  Why?  My sibling knew my state's POA worked only while parent was alive and waiting would have tied everything up with the will terms and whatever, meaning delays.  Fortunately all siblings were on the same page.

So in my state POA worked only until death, then the executor shoes kicked in.

If you haven't seen the will and you're named as executor, you should ensure (1) you know where it is, (2) the lawyer with a copy and (3) be informed if its location ever changes or (4) you are dropped from being executrix.

You should know at least some terms of the will if not clearly stated elsewhere.  Does she want burial or cremation?  Has she pre-selected a funeral home or casket or already purchased a grave site?  That is, things you need to know promptly in the event of her death, not days or weeks later.

[Notwendy]

ForeverDad,

These are really important considerations. I am the executor as far as I have been told. I have requested an original copy of the will from the lawyer, but ultimately, my mother is in control and will do as she chooses.

I tried to get this kind of info in order when my father was ill, but this triggered my mother and she insisted on having control over all of it and cut me out of everything- will, information, etc. She even had a fit when she found out I had given the clergy information about me and my family so we could be mentioned in the funeral service and had a fit when he did.

If she has the only original copy of her will, and loses it, I can't do much about it. At this point, my concern would be for me to do the best, and most ethical job as POA as I can with the circumstances as they are at the time. I know how to locate her lawyer, but that is all I can do as long as she is in control of this.