Shop lifting issue

[waverider]

My wife has gone through a phase of obsessing over gift giving. Birthdays, talking about it planning them, gift flooding, and immediately pestering receivers for gratitude. Generally driving everyone nuts. This goes for even those who really are too remote to be given gifts.

This is obviously about buying validation rather than any real regard for the person. Always buying gifts for me I specifically dont want or need. Who needs 50 pairs of shorts?

She has little money to afford these things. This need has now quite obviously morphed into shop lifting to fend this, to a point I now believe the need for shoplifting has taken over in itself.

Of course she denies all this and goes into victim mode when confronted. I manage all her online banking so I can see her full transactions, and it is obvious these items have no financial footprint, and there are no cash withdrawals. I have red flags going off everywhere and she has been confronted by two pharmacies, which she is now banned from.

So my question now is what to do about it, before she ends up on a charge? Maybe she needs to be charged to bring about the crisis. This is obviously a runaway train obsession, and I am not inclined to throw myself onto its path in a vain attempt to halt it.

Apparently she got into trouble with this in her twenties when she started stealing for her son when he was born. Eventually caught and charged

Anyone else had to deal with this as part of BPD?

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[enlighten me]

My exgf shoplifted on about three occassions when I was physically with her. She passed it off as not seeing the item in tge trolley or she forgot she had it in her hand. At the time it seemed odd especially as I was paying for the shopping. It was always something for her kids aswell. I think she did it knowlingly and as it was her kids stuff it was more about "her" providing for the kids than anything else.

[livednlearned]

Do you think it's about needing validation, or do you think it's primarily about impulsivity?

[flourdust]

The important question you're asking is if you DO need to do anything about this.

What happens if the consequences for her actions just happen?

[enlighten me]

Do you think it's about needing validation, or do you think it's primarily about impulsivity?

With my exgf I think it was about self esteem. Because she couldnt afford much she probably felt bad about herself as a mother. By providing a few items she was showing herself that she was capable of providing for her kids. If that makes sense.

[waverider]

Do you think it's about needing validation, or do you think it's primarily about impulsivity?

The gift giving is definitely validation. However the shoplifting is deliberate, not just a temptation while she is there. More of a compulsion than an impulse.

The gift giving then becomes a justification, as the items are rarely for her. Eventually it becomes a chicken and egg issue.

She went through a stage of taking money out of my wallet to buy me gifts that I didn't want. Obviously similarly chasing the Grand gesture reward without the responsibility of funding it. Justifying the theft by not spending it on herself

One particular toxic aspect is that she has on occasions asked others to contribute towards the costs making it a combined gift, ie making a profit. I think there is a buzz factor in that.

I have a small sales business, and am perfectly aware that it is not a victimless crime, and I hate theft of any kind. Jumping up and down is not going to fix it, but I am not going to turn a blind eye, nor drive myself nuts chasing receipts to prove individual issues.

The important question you're asking is if you DO need to do anything about this.

What happens if the consequences for her actions just happen?

Correct, I cant stop it, but how best to state my reality without getting drawn into drama that is not my doing, and will only deflect from the problem, yet present her with a heads up of where it can go and what her options are. No doubt she feels trapped in this, just like any other obsession.

Then the consequences will be whatever they will be, and ultimately hers to deal with.

[livednlearned]

Buzz factor might be in play, then? If she gets a rush from it, I wonder if there is something else that could provide that flood of adrenaline, that wouldn't put her in harm's way.

It's inevitable that she will get caught. Maybe talk in advance about what you are/are not willing to do in the event she is caught on camera and charged?

[waverider]

I think the approach here is to acknowledge the behavior rather than accuse. This will avoid going down the distraction of "did/didn't not", in a delusional attempt to convince me of innocence and playing the victim.

[QBert]

My SO with BPD was once caught shoplifting at a department store. This was a few months after we met. She got the crap scared out of her, courtesy of the store. Ultimately she spent $300 to consult a lawyer, but charges were never filed.

She had some consequences that impacted her way of life for several months (none of them brought on by the legal system)... .

... .I think she was scared "just enough" to leave that habit behind.

I wish you the best. I would think the course suggested above may be reasonable:


I know your buying gifts for people and I'm not sure where the money for the gift buying is coming from. I'm concerned you may be engaging in some behavior that won't be prudent. Should something bad happen and you face consequences, here's what I will do/here is what I won't do.

[teapay]

I think your approach to warning her, particularly of the consequences, and letting those consequences happen naturally is a good approach for you and her.  However, as a spouse, how do you not get dragged in financially for any legal bills the consequences may entail, especially if she has not much money of her own.

[livednlearned]

I think the approach here is to acknowledge the behavior rather than accuse. This will avoid going down the distraction of "did/didn't not", in a delusional attempt to convince me of innocence and playing the victim.

Can you say more about this? Acknowledging the behavior, meaning you notice that she is seeking validation through gifting? Or that you notice an increase in gifting overall?

What would the SET conversation be like for this?

[waverider]

I think the approach here is to acknowledge the behavior rather than accuse. This will avoid going down the distraction of "did/didn't not", in a delusional attempt to convince me of innocence and playing the victim.

Can you say more about this? Acknowledging the behavior, meaning you notice that she is seeking validation through gifting? Or that you notice an increase in gifting overall?

What would the SET conversation be like for this?

The gifting issue has already been raised and accepted. In fact she has pinned an affirmation on the fridge. Comply with that will be another thing. The real issue is the shop lifting one. Hopefully reducing one of the original triggers for it will help.

How to avoid being dragged into the consequences? That is difficult, not trying to hide it or cover it up is a start. Confrontation simply sends her in to deny and cover up mode rather than actually addressing the issue.

The approach is not getting irate, not putting it off and allowing frustration to build will help that.  Acknowledging that it is a common issue that is associated with the compulsive behavior she suffers from. She is quite open and accepting of having BPD, and of having this problem when she was younger.

I will talk about how i know she gets upset that she doesn't have the money to spare that the rest of her family have and use as a status symbol. I think it is a way of trying to display that she is not as poor as she is, this is the underluying driver behind looking generous.

From there I will talk about the consequences of what happened when she was caught when she was younger and how that would be a set back to end up back there again given how far she has come.

Finish off with a clear statement that I have little respect for thieves and that I will not be playing rescuer if she ends in trouble with the law.

Make it clear that what happens from here is all her responsibility along with any consequences.

I refuse to make myself sick with stress and worry.

[HopefulDad]

Finish off with a clear statement that I have little respect for thieves and that I will not be playing rescuer when she ends in trouble with the law.

Make it clear that what happens from here is all her responsibility along with any consequences.

See my edit, then throw in a "And make no mistake: Shoplifters get caught.  It's just a matter of when, not if."

[waverider]

Finish off with a clear statement that I have little respect for thieves and that I will not be playing rescuer when she ends in trouble with the law.

Make it clear that what happens from here is all her responsibility along with any consequences.

See my edit, then throw in a "And make no mistake: Shoplifters get caught.  It's just a matter of when, not if."

Especially in these days of electronic surveillance

Believe it or not the two pharmacies who have caught her out so far are ones that she gets prescriptions made up at, so they have all her details on file. That indicates compulsive behavior rather than big picture thinking. making the "when" inevitable

[Notwendy]

WW, wow this is tough.

I agree with the natural consequences idea though- she is an adult. You break the law, and there are consequences.

If you get in between that, it becomes a form of the Karpman triangle- you, the law, and your wife.

You try to help prevent her getting in trouble ( rescuer). She sees you as criticizing ( you are persecutor) she feels like a victim.

Or, she gets in trouble with the law ( persecutor) - she sees herself as victim - then you could come in as rescuer- hire a lawyer, pay the store back -whatever to prevent her from getting in trouble.

Hard on you to let things happen, but I don't know if trying to intervene would actually be of help with this or just be ineffective drama.  I do agree with your speaking to her to set your boundaries- this is wrong and I don't agree with/condone it. You could get in trouble,but can't think of anything else to do.

If she were mentally incompetent- like a child, she would not be accountable and you would have to assume guardianship of her. But probably, like some people with BPD, she has impaired judgment but is not legally incompetent.

[waverider]

Had 'the talk" today, started off with I am aware she is having issues with compulsive behavior that is all part of Borderline and added that I am not angry at her, or hate her.

She did the expected denial and then wanted examples, but I refused to debate examples and said i just had to let her know i have been aware for a long time, and I was not going to argue about it. Also that I was only going to say it once.

If she needs to talk to her therapists about it she should, before she got into a whole heap of trouble and had to explain it to a magistrate

I dropped the subject quickly, and she didn't try to run with the argument. So I guess that indicates it was true and was grateful to have the subject dropped rather than getting into a fight over something she knew she could not defend.

Anyway, gone to the mall now, lets see what she comes home with.

[isilme]

H has never done this, but my BPD mother has shoplifted and committed theft by check all my life.  I've seen credit cards cut up in front of me and had the police show up about hot check as a child, and later, as a young adult, I bailed her out of jail a few times for it.  It was never her fault, the items were planted on her, she forgot she had them (once it was a washing machine!).  She would use my dad's SSN to apply for things (long after they divorced) and tell me about it, and sometimes would put MY phone number on things instead of her own. 

Then, I learned I couldn't help her with it as her child, and so it's one reason I have since gone NC.  Not really a solution for a spouse, sorry.  The last time it happened, we left her in jail and tried to save as much from her apartment (she was being evicted at the same time), and handed over what we could when she was released.  That was the last time we saw each other face to face.  I was about 26-28 years old . 

I think it's an instant gratification, compulsive, emotional fulfillment, not a pre-planned (usually) event, at least when it was things like jewelry.  The washing machine, cell phones, I know she had to enter into credit discussions, and I believe on some level she knew better.  In a similar vein, she would go to multiple doctors to allow her to get more prescriptions for controlled drugs than is supposed to be allowed.  So if she was only supposed to have 4 Seconal pills a month, she'd have like 16.  You could do this in the 80s, and in her case, the desire to have the drugs made everything else she did to acquire them okay to do.  The ends justified the means to her. 

[waverider]

Well so far only small red flags rather than big obvious ones, though I have a suspicion its just more careful cover up. Anyway she knows my reality so we will see if it sinks in.

[waverider]

Got busted by a third (her main) pharmacy.

Thats 3 times now she claims innocent victim.They have all got her on CCT and her full details from her prescriptions

How long before someone presses charges?

She has acknowledged what I said and has taken it on board, hopefully it sinks in eventually

[waverider]

Well a week on and all that has changed is she has made a little more effort to cover it up, but it is still blatantly obvious.

Even though she knows I know, she still lifts "gifts" for me as though upping the anti brazenly cancels it out.

[Notwendy]

I don't know how long.

I know in the case of my mother, when she was younger, she was so pretty and charming, people would let her off the hook. Now, she's elderly and just as endearing in a different way. Shoplifting isn't an issue as far as I know, but different situations where she was manipulative.

If I got involved, I became the "persecutor" in the drama triangle.

I don't wish being charged with something on your wife, but it is the natural consequences of shoplifting. I hope there is some way to protect yourself- your finances and have her be responsible for her actions.

As to "gifting" I wouldn't accept stolen goods- they are stolen. In addition- it justifies her actions in a way to her " I did it for him".

One boundary could be to not accept stolen goods and to return the item. This is a lesson that some parents do with little children the first time a small child ( who doesn't understand that it is wrong to take something from the store)- take the child back to the store and return the item. I think many store owners understand this "lesson" and so are kind to the child and thank the child for returning the item and then reinforce that one should not take things from a store. It's a good lesson in boundaries with a child and a safe option- nobody puts a 4 year old in jail.

I think it would be difficult to do this with an adult who isn't willing to return the item and fears getting charged.

But you can still uphold the boundary- to not accept a gift that wasn't paid for and if you know where it comes from- take the item back to the store. This could get sticky if they want to know who took it, but it sets the message to your wife that you will not be a party to this.

[HopefulDad]

Well a week on and all that has changed is she has made a little more effort to cover it up, but it is still blatantly obvious.

Even though she knows I know, she still lifts "gifts" for me as though upping the anti brazenly cancels it out.

Time for you to up the ante.  Tell her that her gifts suck and if she really wanted to get you something cool, she should shoplift a table saw for you.

[waverider]

As to "gifting" I wouldn't accept stolen goods- they are stolen. In addition- it justifies her actions in a way to her " I did it for him".

One boundary could be to not accept stolen goods and to return the item. This is a lesson that some parents do with little children the first time a small child ( who doesn't understand that it is wrong to take something from the store)- take the child back to the store and return the item. I think many store owners understand this "lesson" and so are kind to the child and thank the child for returning the item and then reinforce that one should not take things from a store. It's a good lesson in boundaries with a child and a safe option- nobody puts a 4 year old in jail.

The difficulty with this is that there is a mixture of paid for and not paid for, and I dont want to drive myself nuts trying work out which is which. That is just getting drawn into it. Currently any that ring obvious alarm bells go down to the thift shop as a donation. Believe it or not I think she is even lifting from the thift stores.

I have been through this accusation and denial seesaw with different issues before and I am not wiling to go there.

It is like building sandcastles to hold back the tide.

Any boundaries need to be about staying out of the tidal zone rather than trying to halt the stronger force of obsession.

Next step will be to bring it up with one of her therapists at some stage so that its out on the table.

Heading to Xmas is just adding fuel to it.

[waverider]

Well a week on and all that has changed is she has made a little more effort to cover it up, but it is still blatantly obvious.

Even though she knows I know, she still lifts "gifts" for me as though upping the anti brazenly cancels it out.

Time for you to up the ante.  Tell her that her gifts suck and if she really wanted to get you something cool, she should shoplift a table saw for you.

Tempting, but she might just take that literally

[Notwendy]

Currently any that ring obvious alarm bells go down to the thift shop as a donation. Believe it or not I think she is even lifting from the thift stores.

Maybe you'll see it back. I've heard of re-gifting, now there could be re-stealing.

Sorry the situation isn't funny, but -imagine her thinking " didn't I take this last week?"

This is tough WW, and I am sorry you are dealing with this. You have managed your situation extremely well, and this is a challenge.

[HopefulDad]

Next step will be to bring it up with one of her therapists at some stage so that its out on the table.

Heading to Xmas is just adding fuel to it.

Speaking of Christmas, buy her a personalized reflective neon vest as a gift.  When she asks what it's for, tell her she can wear it while picking up trash on the side of the highway with the other convicted shoplifters.

Seriously, you've been direct with her and now the rest is up to her.  I don't think there is any more advice to give at this point.

[HopefulDad]

Time for you to up the ante.  Tell her that her gifts suck and if she really wanted to get you something cool, she should shoplift a table saw for you.

Tempting, but she might just take that literally

YES!  Do it! opcorn:

[pallavirajsinghani]

Shoplifting is a stress buster, it's like a release metaphorically and in effect similar to other types of self-harm and self medication.  The issue is the degree of unresolved and unmitigated stress. It's a coping mechanism.   I don't think that she can control her behavior without the mitigation of the stress she is under.

I agree that gift giving is just a self-deception.  It is the actual act of lifting that is a release.

Stealing from a thrift store means, taking items right back there and then some more... .perhaps you can continually keep a box in the kitchen where you put "items to be donated" and include stuff you don't want or suspect has been stolen.  Every week, go together to donate the box... .repeat pattern... .this may help.

At least you won't be cited for "possession of stolen goods".

You have a good point, this has to be shared with her Therapist... .

[waverider]

Stealing from a thrift store means, taking items right back there and then some more... .perhaps you can continually keep a box in the kitchen where you put "items to be donated" and include stuff you don't want or suspect has been stolen.  Every week, go together to donate the box... .repeat pattern... .this may help.

We buy a lot from the thrift stores and also donate a huge amount ( my business is in secondhand goods), this probably helps her not feel bad about it, even an entitlement