She did say she was BPD at the beginning

[hollow]

From experience, the so-called "high functioning" borderline seems to be slightly more dangerous (although the end result is the same). They appear to be functioning properly, are really difficult to diagnose unless you live with them for months/years, they're most often in denial, they will keep from exhibiting their feelings (acting out) in social surroundings, and what makes it the cherry on top is doubting your own perception over and over again as to whether they really have a disorder or not. It's like you're being constantly gaslighted by your self-doubt. Of course, all it takes is to take a step back and look at the facts. That alone can make it easier to doubt less.

In my uBPDx's case, she shares 7 out of the 9 DSM-IV traits (in varying degrees), shares many of the symptoms listed on the forums here, her behavior is pretty predictable once you read what the patterns are, her reactions, vocabulary, and knowing her history of past relationships through 3rd parties and her (cross-referenced when possible), she exhibits BPD symptoms when in intimate relationships. Also, although she likes to appear to others as if she's leading a proper, normal life, after getting to know her well, I can safely say that everything in her life is in disorder in some way or another except her job and circle of friends. As for friends, she avoids getting to close and personal with any of them from her side, at least.

She did say she was BPD at the beginning of our relationship. I asked if she had been diagnosed, she said no, so I thought she was just exaggerating. I didn't know what it was, and read some things superficially. It was after the first huge bump that I started educating myself concerning this.

Anyone else here have experience with HF-BPD?

[Lucky Jim]

they will keep from exhibiting their feelings (acting out) in social surroundings, and what makes it the cherry on top is doubting your own perception over and over again as to whether they really have a disorder or not.

Hey hollow, Sure, those w/BPD are experts at hiding their disorder from the outside world because they've been doing it all their lives.  Only those closest to them get to see the dark side.  Agree, their ability to present a facade can cause one to pause with self-doubt, but it's hard to deny the reality once you've experienced it first-hand.  You and I know the sky is blue, regardless what the person w/BPD says.

You refer to your SO as an Ex.  Perhaps you could fill us in on your current status?

LuckyJim

[hollow]

  Lucky Jim

Current status is probably me receiving the silent treatment after telling her again that I don't want what she's offering. I got through the withdrawal symptoms (again) and I'm currently in Indifference Mode. However, when she does pop in my mind, I start entertaining the idea of another "test" recycle (the emotionless, dead-end, only-sex type). Then I log on here and feel that there's nothing left to test and go back to indifference. However, I do want to support and help on the boards, so I'm not completely indifferent, in that sense.

[Lucky Jim]

Hey hollow, What's the point of a "test" recycle, unless you are hoping to rekindle things w/her?  The idea that you can have sex w/her without more seems unrealistic.  LuckyJim

[hollow]

Not really trying to rekindle anything. There's nothing left; nothing there. That's why I said the idea of a test goes away when I log on here. By test, I'm referring to reaffirming the things I learned here (e.g. the last recycle was really beneficial in seeing everything that I learned from the boards more clearly, and also being able to "handle" her). What draws me to her is just the sex, now (and in last recycle), but that's gradually going away too, albeit extremely slowly. Unrealistic for long-term, yes, but short spells seemed to do the trick in the past (not anymore).

[eprogeny]

I told my therapist these boards made it so clear to me how pervasive the disorder really is - and the OP here proved it once again.  Based on everything said we either dated the same girl, or we both dated BPD.

[Confused108]

My ex is a High Functioning BPD as well. When she found me in Facebook in 2013 I thought she had grown up to be a successful buisness owner etc.   we were childhood friends  that became more at 14yo. Well boy was I wrong.  Mind you she did the most hellish mindgames on me as teens after I tried getting her back aftwr my mom broke us up. She had a break down and was sent to a mental hospital for 2months. So when we re connected I thought she had gotten her life on track! BOY was I Wrong. Friends in FB for 2 1/2 years took her bait to get back and in a matter of days she was pushing / pulling / raging! So it took me getting back into a relationship with her for her to become Mrs. Hyde! So it's true they wear masks so the outside can't see what's behind it. Only the people they are closest with.

[once removed]

i think its less important to convince yourself she has a disorder, and more important to accept that the behaviors you experienced are who she is and unlikely to change. that goes for whether you recycle the relationship or not.

what are/were those actions and behaviors that are unacceptable to you?

[bus boy]

Good topic. My NPD/BPD Xw, as I call her bc she exhibits both disorders is not diagnosed. We did a parental evulation and the forensic psychologist stated stated in her report it was very likely Xw had a personality disorder. Xw is high functioning, 18 years on the same job, nice house, nice car, s10 wants for nothing. Xw is a very dangerous, deceitful, manuplateing, emotionally abusive lier. She denies any abusive behaviour, you would swear she is the nicest person you ever met and many people think just that. I just spent the last week writing my journal into affidavit form for a custody hearing, so xw's high functioning manuplation is fresh in my brain. They are the ones to watch for bc they hide the crazy so well. Street angel kitchen devil. My T and I dissected my journal from cover to cover, she was as mentally exhausted as I was by the end of it. Xw will treat you like gold, split you black than white but not really split white, just being nice to manuplate you, still loathing you but building you up for another discard but the final discard you will be split black for good, looked at, talked to and treated like dirt. Once you get your brains sorted out and back on track, the best thing in the world to ever happen is the final discard.

[hollow]

I've been reading about the Mr. Jeckyll/Dr. Hyde personality many times on these boards and it's scary just reading about it, let alone living it. In my case, my ex is convinced she is a nice person and tries her hardest to be a kind, generous, friendly, "loyal", upstanding member of society. I would rather not go into details, but I will say that she still ends up being emotionally abusive, used to go into unreasonable rages when I'd say something that would trigger her (this would be something that to other people would seem reasonable or a normal/everyday thing. I often wondered how we went from 0-60 in a split second), loving me one second and wanting to go home the next, is controlled by her feelings, and a lot of other things found on these forums. Now, as I mentioned, she tries to be a really good person, so her anger and all the bad stuff she does is "mild" in comparison with some of the more extreme stuff described on these boards. However, it was quite hurtful either way, and because she is "high functioning" and in a special situation, I cut her a lot of slack for a long time (before I found out about the intricacies of BPD). To be honest, I don't usually stay in these kind of situations, but there were a lot of factors that kept me in this one.

i think its less important to convince yourself she has a disorder, and more important to accept that the behaviors you experienced are who she is and unlikely to change. that goes for whether you recycle the relationship or not.

what are/were those actions and behaviors that are unacceptable to you?

I think every piece of information/detail is important when assessing a situation, and as for the behaviors whoever experienced on these boards did not come out of the blue (although it may seem like it most of the time). People are still trying to make some of these relationships work, and professionals are still trying to find ways of helping these people. Therefore, whatever is unacceptable to me or the next person is just as important as understanding how to help these people out as well.

Also, what one may find unacceptable in one person, one may find it acceptable in another. People are not the only factor in this, either. Time is also another factor some perceptions of ours change.

[FannyB]

High functioning types are the worst IMO as they can often hold things together for a sustained period of time during which you can totally fall for them. When my ex started acting out I thought it was early onset menopause - such was the sudden change in behaviour she exhibited. 

I totally get that for a low functioning (i.e. obvious BPD) there is almost certainly a FOO blueprint for your attraction to them. I don't think we should talk in such absolutes for those who fell for a HF borderline - especially if you were blissfully unaware of the concept of BPD at the time.

Fanny

[Larmoyant]

My ex is HF and it was this that was part of my attraction to him. I’ve now discovered this is related to my FOO issues. He came across as intelligent, mature, capable, authoritative, focused and stable. Didn’t take long for the fasçade to come tumbling down, at least where I was concerned. Despite holding a responsible job he took massive risks, drink driving, stealing (he’d say he forgot to pay), punching a man for talking to me, and threatening others. He’s a university lecturer and (during our relationship) was encouraging one of his mature aged students who was clearly attracted to him. At one point she was massaging his feet, and writing emails to him declaring love. He coldheartedly reported her, but I know he’d been encouraging her. He told me a different version of the story, but I read his emails (have come to terms with the rights and wrongs of this).

[Sadly]

Hi
Yes mine is very HF too. That's what makes it so heartbreaking. Funny, clever, inspiring, that's what others continue to see. That's what totally confused me when the turning began. That's what made me eventually believe I was at fault for a long time. Not so clever not so attractive not anything worth having. I blamed his alcohol addiction for a long time but then learnt about BPD. What an awful heartbreaking waste. X

[bus boy]

hollow, reading your post is like reading my own story. The first time I went to see a T, I was an emotional wreck, my than wife told me to go to councelling, a T will tell you how fisfunctional your family is and she topped it off by forbidding me ( she loved that word) to talk about her. The T told me I was being mentally abused, I didn't have a famous clue what the T was talking about. The T asked how long I was with my than wife, I told her and she said people don't just go from 0-60. That was my first eye opener to the world of abuse and the long road to recovery.

[Dutched]

Well this topic resonates and brought memories back of my first ‘aha moment’ yrs. before that r/s ended.
It was spot on. 

Randi Kreger, co-author of Stop Walking on Eggshells and professional member of this board,, says the situation with high functioning will look more like this:

Denial is their primary characteristic. They disavow having any problems and see no need to change. Relationship difficulties, they say, are everyone else’s fault. In couples therapy, their goal is often to convince the therapist that they are being victimized

They cope with their pain by raging outward, blaming and accusing family members for real or imagined problems (“acting out”) or abusive to significant others

Family members’ greatest challenges include coping with verbal abuse, trying to get their family member to seek treatment, and maintaining their self-esteem and sense of reality.

They refuse to seek help from the mental health system. If they do go, they usually don’t intend to work on their own issues.

They may hide their low self-esteem behind a brash, confident pose that hides their inner turmoil. They usually function quite well at work and only display aggressive behaviour toward those closed to them (high functioning). But the black hole in the gut and their intense self-loathing are still there. It’s just buried deeper

Situational Competence in most places other than the home

Are often perfectionists in some areas of their lives and sometimes do achieve near perfection in these areas

Well Thought of in the Community

Highly Successful Professionally

Lack of Physical Self Mutilation

See also:
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?PHPSESSID=6f2aabdd4f6eb21b7a071ce32d4f6ccf&topic=281995.0;all

[Rickybee]

Exactly the same experience here hollow, mine was high functionally, to the letter you just decsribed my exBPD

[once removed]

what makes it the cherry on top is doubting your own perception over and over again as to whether they really have a disorder or not.

In my uBPDx's case, she shares 7 out of the 9 DSM-IV traits (in varying degrees), shares many of the symptoms listed on the forums here, her behavior is pretty predictable once you read what the patterns are, her reactions, vocabulary, and knowing her history of past relationships through 3rd parties and her (cross-referenced when possible), she exhibits BPD symptoms when in intimate relationships. Also, although she likes to appear to others as if she's leading a proper, normal life, after getting to know her well, I can safely say that everything in her life is in disorder in some way or another except her job and circle of friends.

short of a professional diagnosis, one cant know. though you seem pretty convinced, you are struggling with self doubt. this is about that struggle.

if you had confirmation either way, what would it change, if anything? is her having 7 out of 9 dsm traits, having predictable behavior, and everything in her life being disordered in some way a deal breaker? how does it effect you? where do you want to go from here, based on that? thats what im encouraging you to dive into.

[Skip]

High functioning borderline = not borderline.

When we say high functioning borderline we are really saying someone who does not have borderline personality disorder bur rather has some traits or styles of a person with borderline personality disorder.

There is a spectrum and it includes people that are not clinically ill - but very difficult non-the-less. The same tools and approaches apply.

In Randi Kreger's new book, she is terming all this as High Conflict Persons. She got more criticism than traction of "High functioning". PDAN refers to it as emotionally intense families. We refer to it in one video as "hidden borderlines". These terms are all pointing to sub-clinical levels of BPD.

Very difficult people non-the-less.

[hollow]

What happens when they have most of the traits and symptoms, and the only things they lack is not being able to keep a job, cutting themselves and/or acting out in public?

Is there a better definition of the HFBPD? I'm starting to think that I've been using the term wrongly, and not that she might not be BPD, since she shares a vast majority of the traits and symptoms.

@once removed: the better I understand something, the easier it is to accept it. I don't want to be repeating the same mistakes in the future. The more I learn about this, the better. That's how it affects me. My point of reference may be my ex, but my reasons for understanding this are not limited to her.

[fromheeltoheal]

the better I understand something, the easier it is to accept it.

I understand hollow.  When I got here I was hurting badly emotionally, but also very confused, thought I was going insane even.  And by learning a little bit of the clinical side of the disorder and reading story after story here that I could have written, it did two things: one, I learned that BPD really is a "thing", with a cluster of traits and behaviors that folks have cataloged, and two, I wasn't alone.  That made the confusion go away immediately, and although her behaviors were still 100% unacceptable, and yet I missed her, I wasn't confused anymore, I understood why she does what she does, which helped a great deal.

And like   once removed mentioned, in the end we're not mental health professionals and it may not be too important to burrow down too deeply into the clinical stuff, in the end it's the behaviors and how they affected us that matter, and most importantly moving forward, how we responded to those behaviors and why.  That's a process though, and we go through it how we go through it, just something to think about.

[Dutched]

Skip,

Thanks for updating us about this classification.

Must say I don’t know the latest book of Randi yet, nor about the criticism on that classification
The quotes I made in my reply are from Randi and once (partially) gathered on the blog of bpdfamily.org.

What was known, and Randi made that somewhere clear too, that there is indeed no official qualification on low or high functioning.
It is indeed merely a description to point out differences in behaviour (the spectrum) in order to explain in a lay mans way behaviour for those involved (partners, family, etc). 

I understand that in professional settings the definition ‘sub clinical’ is used as there is no diagnose due to the fact that the ones functioning in the higher levels of the spectrum (as I may express it that way) are never diagnosed by these professionals.
Nor the persons involved are willing or capable of seeing the need for treatment.
From the scientific point of view very correct even maybe a very social correctness, therefore I respect the classification as High Conflict Person. 

On this side of the ocean last year a 60.000 persons were picked up by the Police as they were referred to as ‘confused person’.
A momentary situational view of thinking and classification made by totally non competent persons (a Police officer).
Think of persons that had a black out when involved in an accident and sat in silence on the side of the road. People that got the sad news of a beloved one being death and just went out for a walk to clarify their thoughts; family very concerned and calling the Police.
Picked up as ‘confused person’, facing more trauma of being held until a ‘professional’ sees them to whom they had to convince heir sanity.

Why am I using this comparison?
As ‘confused person’ is a correct but non defined classification,
A ‘high conflict person’ is a classification without having the need to, nor being able by professionals, to define.

If Randi is still involved in this board, I would appreciate her view how to make it still understandable for us as lay man’s, as ‘experience experts’.

Thanks again for updating and clarifying Skip.

[Skip]

From experience, the so-called "high functioning" borderline seems to be slightly more dangerous (although the end result is the same). They appear to be functioning properly, are really difficult to diagnose unless you live with them for months/years, they're most often in denial, they will keep from exhibiting their feelings (acting out) in social surroundings, and what makes it the cherry on top is doubting your own perception over and over again as to whether they really have a disorder or not. It's like you're being constantly gaslighted by your self-doubt. Of course, all it takes is to take a step back and look at the facts. That alone can make it easier to doubt less.

  Dutched,

Good question.

I was commenting on the confusion that these terms are causing (exhibited above).

There simply is not a category of people that are stealth and more dangerous than a person with clinical level BPD. This is a misunderstanding. I've had this conversation with our University consultants and some of our 200+ professional members.

There is a spectrum of BPD that ranges from "almost" to "some" to "alot" (lay terms). In the DSM, the architects proposed a scale to start quantifying this to some level.

It's best to think of BPD on a spectrum... .

<----- Traits only level / subclinical  ----->|     |<----  Clinical level ---- >|
<---- None ---- a few ---- some  ---- several  ---- Mild  ----  Severe  ---- >

Danger The primary danger in BPD is suicide, self injury, risk behavior, not able to support ones self.  We don't see this more in subclinical population than clinical, its the other way around.

Difficult to Diagnose Subclinical really means that they wouldn't get a diagnosis.

As for Randi's definition above, here first bullet points apply to clinical BPD and to some extent to subclinical.

She then adds the following which are basically all signs of subclinical BPD (the danger factors aren't present)

• Situational Competence in most places other than the home
• Are often perfectionists in some areas of their lives and sometimes do achieve near perfection in these areas
• Well Thought of in the Community
• Highly Successful Professionally
• Lack of Physical Self Mutilation

So what is the right term? What is more accurate the Low and High Functioning BPD?

• Clinical and subclinical
• BPD and BPD traits

The reason High Functioning BPD is confusing is that, technically these people aren't BPD.

Nina Brown PhD says this in her books on NPD. Most of the NPD we encounter are not operating at clinical levels. None-the-less, this personality style can be devastating to loved ones.

[hollow]

Thanks for that!

Although the information you share is always extremely helpful, I'm still not clear about my ex, for example.

Suicidal thoughts (complete with ways of doing it and discussions about it) and risky behavior (driving recklessly, drug abuse, sex-related, etc) are considered dangerous. This describes her.

However, there was no physical self-injury, and she can support herself financially. She is not highly successful professionally, but is able to keep a steady job.

She has most of the traits and symptoms described on these boards (a vast majority of them).

Any more literature to read?

[fromheeltoheal]

Any more literature to read?

There are many articles on this site along with many book reviews hollow; have you dug deeply into those?

My first thought was the stereotypical counselor's question: how did her behavior make you feel?

[hollow]

I meant literature concerning the HF/LF difference.

My first thought was the stereotypical counselor's question: how did her behavior make you feel?

Haha, emotional pain and confusion, of course.

[Icanteven]

She did say she was BPD at the beginning of our relationship. I asked if she had been diagnosed, she said no, so I thought she was just exaggerating... .
Anyone else here have experience with HF-BPD?

My wife told me she was anorexic maybe a year into our relationship.  I - and I'm ashamed of this in retrospect - invalidated her because she was modeling and I figured show me a model that doesn't have issues with food, right?  Because she was medicated and seeing a psychiatrist regularly, I asked her if her doctor had ever offered this diagnosis, and the answer was no.  

Her psychiatrist misdiagnosed her a number of times.  One of the diagnoses he missed was anorexia.  It receded for years but it came back with a vengeance.  Her family doctor missed it.  Her psychiatrist missed it.  I missed it.  Her family missed it.  Plenty of blame to go around.

I know this isn't BPD, but eating disorders are comorbid with BPD in many situations, so it's not exactly apples to oranges.

It's best to think of BPD on a spectrum... .

<----- Traits only level / subclinical  ----->|     |<----  Clinical level ---- >|
<---- None ---- a few ---- some  ---- several  ---- Mild  ----  Severe  ---- >

Danger The primary danger in BPD is suicide, self injury, risk behavior, not able to support ones self.  We don't see this more in subclinical population than clinical, its the other way around.

My "favorite" thing about Skip's illustration above is that I got to experience the entire spectrum.  Had she had suicidal ideation previously?  Yes, but she wasn't medicated properly and her partying certainly interfered with her medicines' effectiveness, so once she stopped partying and became medication compliant the SI went away.  The shopping sprees went away.  The risky sex stopped, she got tested for everything, and she sublimated her sex drive into our relationship.  She was and is a subject matter expert whose skills are in very high demand.  The outbursts - at least around me - completely stopped to the point that her friends and family constantly reiterated what a good influence I had been on the former wild child.

And then one day she completely dissociated.  And the cutting began.  And it became painfully apparent that she wasn't just trying to lose weight.  And the credit card bills started rolling in.  And she went out on disability, unable to perform her job any more.  And then she couldn't bathe herself any more.  And she'd spend days in the same pajamas.  And the 20 "do you love me I'm so worried you're going to leave me" texts a day began.  And former best friends were "dead" to her.  And the white hot outbursts at every day life kicked into gear, followed by inducing sleep and lying in bed the entire next day.  And she felt nothing, for herself, or me, or the children.  And for much of this time she was hospitalized.  And we made a suicide plan.  And I was heartbroken, even before she left, because she was spiraling away from us and the doctors and therapists and family and friends and we could do nothing to slow the speed of her descent.

And now she's gone for good.  And over a year after her entry into formal medical care began, the future is no clearer than it was the day she left.  

She was high functioning, not even subclinical for so, so, so long, and then, as if someone flipped a switch, she became low functioning to the point that it's an open question as to whether she'll ever recover.  

She told me much of this at the beginning, only her behavior didn't sync to her self-assessment, nor did it sync to her psychiatrist's - who I met early on both with her, and with her permission, one on one - diagnosis.  Yet she was and is every bit as disordered as she feared.  It may be cliche, but I believe it as one of the count on two hands things I believe about existence:  when someone tells you who they are, believe them.

[fromheeltoheal]

I meant literature concerning the HF/LF difference.

If you start with the basics of the disorder and keep going, the difference will become clear.

My first thought was the stereotypical counselor's question: how did her behavior make you feel?

Haha, emotional pain and confusion, of course.

Me too, and as mentioned, learning a little about the clinical side of the disorder made the confusion go away immediately, because I then understood why she does what she does.  The emotional pain took much longer to resolve, and took some turns I didn't see coming, but that went away too.

So can you expand on "emotional pain and confusion"?

[hollow]

I can't expand on it. That's why I use art to express myself. If you want, I can send you a PM to see what I'm talking about, but that would take away from the anonymity.

Thanks for proposing I read more. I've read quite a lot, but it seems it's never enough.

@Icanteven:
I'm really sorry. Your story was heart-rending, to say the least. I don't know what else I can say.

[fromheeltoheal]

I can't expand on it.

This being a text-based support forum, it's in your best interest to try.  Can you put words to your art?

[Dontknow88]

Yes. my ex is also a high functioning person. he has friends but no strong personal relationship with them. he told me he uses his friends as distraction when he's alone with his mind for two long. (We are in a custody battle and all his friends and new coworkers are supporting him and trying to get full custody, they side with him because they don't know him. all they see is a really nice guy so why shouldn't he have full custody right? Lol) funny thing is he's now in a relationship with one of his friends and as you know in a relationship you get close right? Her world will be crumbling down when she really gets to know him.


And about the custody battle his friends offered to support him and be there in court, of course he said no because he knows I save all the conversations of him wanting to attempt suicide and anything else that shows he's obviously unstable.

when he loses custody because he will. I just know he's going to run back and tell his friends and coworkers that the system is unfair. and they will agree with him, because you know they don't know him.

I agree with you it is a bit harder when they are high functioning. even with low functioning people they tend to show the unfortunate true colors with people they get close to. The stronger the bond the heart of the fall

please read the book" stop walking on eggshells". it is highly informative and will give you a better understanding on what happened.


my ex told me he had some mental issues Before you met me but he's doing OK one for about three years at a time he met me. he has a great job on his own home two cars, went to all of his psychiatric appointments his life is on track. Or he made it seem that way.