Unconditional Love

[C.Stein]

One other thought I had about all this that I removed from my reply was the idea that "unconditional love" potentially was in conflict with our survival instincts.

I would agree with this more or less.  Our natural biological/animal imperative is to procreate.  It doesn't have anything to do with love or even monogamous relationships.  I would go so far to say love and monogamy is in direct conflict with that imperative.  We as thinking animals (human beings) however like to define our reality so we need to define the emotions and feelings associated with connecting with another human ... .so we call it love.  I think a big part of the purpose it serves is to give a foundation for monogamous relationships which is contrary to our instinct to procreate.   The whole concept of love being unconditional takes it much further in that it now includes many other factors beyond the feeling of love.

Lastly, as it relates to UL with our exes wBPD; I simply could never see this as being a possible scenario because the reasons we are involved to begin with our likely deeply entwined in some part of our psyche trying to resolve other issues.

This is the primary reason why I brought the subject up.  I think sometimes people can get stuck on the idea of unconditional love, stuck in a very unhealthy way.  In my mind it is the fantastical ideal we all want but it can never really be achieved in reality, especially with a borderline partner.  This is why, as I mentioned before, that I refuse to make life changing decisions during the honeymoon/idealization period.  This is the period in a relationship where everything is a bit fantastical and that idea of "unconditional" love seems sustainably possible.  Then reality sets in (or crashes in) and we find ourselves disappointed and disillusioned ... .perhaps even empty.  This I feel is a big reason for high divorce rates because people get married expecting this fantastical period to last forever.  Then one day they find out it doesn't and they are married to to someone who is essentially a stranger.

For a borderline I think he/she takes this to the next level, not only wanting it, but needing "love" to be that fantastical ideal.  More importantly I don't think they can truly differentiate between the fantastical and reality.  They need their partner to see them as that ideal fantasy, that perfect partner who is not only deserving of unconditional love but can also reciprocate.  Once that illusion starts to dissipate the need to get that ideal fantasy back is overwhelming.  They need to be that perfect fantastical partner once again and to be with someone who is that perfect fantastical partner for them.

For the person involved with a borderline, we get so caught up in the fantasy we lose sight of or entirely forget reality.  We think we have found the perfect partner whom we can express unconditional love for ... .and feel the same from them.  Perhaps for a time this is true and we did experience that perfect fantastical ideal of unconditional love shared, then reality got in the way.  The fantasy is lost, but not in a normal healthy way, in a major crashing from addiction type way.  Illusions start to dissipate, masks start to crack, mirrors start to cloud.

The only way we can continue on and survive emotionally in a relationship with a borderline at this point is to put up barriers/walls otherwise we risk losing ourselves in their emotional chaos.  When we do this we also lose the ability to love unconditionally on a consistent and sustainable basis and the fantasy is broken.

[Grey Kitty]

Unconditional Love ... .what does it really mean in an adult relationship? [... .]

To love "unconditionally" means that there is nothing your partner can do/say that will not be excused and forgiven immediately without holding on to any negative emotions. 

That wouldn't match my definition. I would include forgiving, but not excused or the expectation of no negative emotions, or that they don't last. Look at other examples where unconditional love is easier and more common.

Parents (should) have unconditional love for their children. A parent would forgive a child for anything, but wouldn't excuse everything, and certainly will have negative emotions in addition to the love at times. This unconditional love is NOT doing what the child wants or asks for. Further, parenting often requires actions which may not match the immediate feelings in the situation.

At one low (abusive) point in my marriage, I said that I would always love my wife, but wasn't sure if I could stay with her--at the time it had real potential to destroy who I was and who I wanted to be. That felt to me like unconditional love.

[C.Stein]

Parents (should) have unconditional love for their children. A parent would forgive a child for anything, but wouldn't excuse everything, and certainly will have negative emotions in addition to the love at times. This unconditional love is NOT doing what the child wants or asks for. Further, parenting often requires actions which may not match the immediate feelings in the situation.

I agree with this.  The problem I see is how other factors get in the way of expressing our love unconditionally.  For the parent child relationship stresses from a strained relations between parents, family, work, etc... can impact our ability to express love for our children.  In an ideal world love for our children would be unconditional, a steady state which is always dependably the same.  I however have witnessed all too often where that is sadly not the case.

In an adult relationship I feel forgiveness is a critical component of maintaining the health of the relationship.  I agree forgiveness doesn't mean excusing but it also requires effort on both peoples part to make it meaningful.  Take for example my ex and her deception that essentially destroyed the relationship.  I forgave her for deceiving and lying to me, but there was no effort on her part at all to hold herself accountable for anything let alone take even the first step required to repair the damage.  Her behavior and things she said following this deception severely impacted my ability to express my love for her even though I still loved her.  If my love were truly unconditional it wouldn't have impacted my ability to express it. 

I think this is a big problem when in abusive and/or one sided relationships.  A reasonable expectation in a relationship is reciprocity and when that is missing ugly emotions grow (bitterness, resentment, apathy, etc... .) and those walls and barriers go up, all of which impact our ability to express love unconditionally.

A reasonable goal in my mind is to strive for something in between.  Recognize there are times when you can express love unconditionally and there are times when your ability to express love will be conditional.  It doesn't need to be an all or nothing proposition.

[Lucky Jim]

Hey C. Stein, I would suggest that the unconditional love that one has for a child is distinct from love between two adults in a marriage or r/s.  I don't want a parent-child dynamic in a r/s anymore.  I was a care taker for 16 years in my marriage to a pwBPD, which I think was unhealthy for me and my BPDxW.  I'm still capable of love for another adult, I've found, but I wouldn't characterize it as unconditional.

LuckyJim

[C.Stein]

I would suggest that the unconditional love that one has for a child is distinct from love between two adults in a marriage or r/s.

I agree, the dynamic is entirely different.

I don't want a parent-child dynamic in a r/s anymore.  I was a care taker for 16 years in my marriage to a pwBPD, which I think was unhealthy for me and my BPDxW.

And this is the problem when in a relationship with a pwBPD.  Emotionally speaking you are essentially in a relationship with a child.  It does not lend to a healthy relationship and certainly does not foster an environment where someone might be able to express their love unconditionally.

[Lucky Jim]

And this is the problem when in a relationship with a pwBPD.  Emotionally speaking you are essentially in a relationship with a child.  It does not lend to a healthy relationship and certainly does not foster an environment where someone might be able to express their love unconditionally.

Yup, you nailed it, C. Stein.  LuckyJim

[bestintentions]

I think a big part of the purpose it serves is to give a foundation for monogamous relationships which is contrary to our instinct to procreate.

C.Stein,

But are these ideas necessarily mutually exclusive?  A study has been done on two closely related species of voles in relation to vasopressin and oxytocin receptors.  Vasopressin in the prairie vole causes pair bonding based on the area of the receptor in its brain.  That species is monogamous and raises/protects their families, the Montane vole is not monogamous.  I haven't read anything in-depth on correlation with humans and vasopressin, but there is apparently evidence to suggest it applies to us as well. Assuming this is true, I'd find it fascinating to know if there's any correlation between vasopressin and caregiver/codependent behaving humans.

bi

[C.Stein]

I think a big part of the purpose it serves is to give a foundation for monogamous relationships which is contrary to our instinct to procreate.

But are these ideas necessarily mutually exclusive?  A study has been done on two closely related species of voles in relation to vasopressin and oxytocin receptors.  Vasopressin in the prairie vole causes pair bonding based on the area of the receptor in its brain.  That species is monogamous and raises/protects their families, the Montane vole is not monogamous.  I haven't read anything in-depth on correlation with humans and vasopressin, but there is apparently evidence to suggest it applies to us as well. Assuming this is true, I'd find it fascinating to know if there's any correlation between vasopressin and caregiver/codependent behaving humans.

bi

I would say they are mutually exclusive as one does not need to participate in a monogamous relationship in order to be instinctively driven to procreate, human or mole.  Generally speaking, monogamy in the animal kingdom is the exception to the rule.  Certainly there may be some chemical correlation between humans and moles, we are after all just another animal, however this is where I think it stops.  

It is difficult when talking about something abstract and largely subjective like love.  :)o we simply call it a chemical reaction or is there something more "spiritual" (for lack of a better term) about the feeling?  :)o moles express or even experience love at all?  

Perhaps love is just a neurochemical reaction ... .or is it more?   How does one quantify love?

[bestintentions]

It is difficult when talking about something abstract and largely subjective like love.  :)o we simply call it a chemical reaction or is there something more "spiritual" (for lack of a better term) about the feeling?  :)o moles express or even experience love at all?  

Perhaps love is just a neurochemical reaction ... .or is it more?   How does one quantify love?

All good questions.  "Spirtuality" to me is nothing supernatural, so it's all a manifestation of physiology/chemistry at a base level.  So, crudely, I believe it's just so layered in its complexity that it's impossible to quantify.  Especially when we're all unique.  Good thread - thanks for the response.