The constant need for validation is wearing me down

[Freeatlast_1]

So I have been with this girl for about eight months now, it has been rocky for sure. We both have established that she has classic symptoms of BPD, and that she needs a lot of therapy. Luckily, she's in the psych field, and she was more than happy to start DBT as well as neurofeedback. She's quite motivated about getting better, which has kept me hanging. We have been in very ferocious fights, where there was a lot of verbal abuse, And I cannot seem to get over that, I really can't. I have been very hurt with the language used, that it has started to give me symptoms of anxiety and PTSD. My symptoms include, Weight gain, Sleeplessness, random tearing, Extreme fatigue, and moods swings. I also avoid hanging out with her, which has been hurting her a lot lately. And when she complains about me being distant, avoidant, And told me how sad she feels about it, I tend to answer things along the lines of "this isn't all about you, I need some space to think things over". And most of the time the fight starts with me and not validating her emotions. The problem is that she needs validation many times a day, Every day, But I'm finding myself without an opinion and constantly validating her feelings, it is worsening my anxiety. I might not be a validator by nature, I do tend to dismiss her feelings sometimes. I was brought up an environment where constant expression of feelings is considered nagging and not productive. I was brought up to suck it up and focus on the task at hand, and I've become a successful physician being guided by rationalizing things FIRST, not much by my emotions. But in this relationship, it has been biting me in the butt, because I have to validate and acknowledge her feelings even when I'm in fight or flight myself. It has become so draining for me that I asked her to take a break. That of course triggered her abandonment, she felt rejected, and back to the verbal abuse again. I'm in a vicious cycle, I cannot seem to escape because I like her, she's very smart, And has a very bright future, and I want us to be a power couple. When she is good she is fantastic. I don't know how to get out. A part of me wants it to work out and another part believes that there is no way she will change. I've tried to establishing boundaries of respect, she crossed them every time. I tried punishing her by ignoring her and avoiding her, she starts complaining of how abusive I am and uses that against me. She doesn't get that disrespect will trigger me to do that! Which leads to the usual few days break, etc etc. So I'm in this push pull dynamic, discussing dynamics of the relationship constantly, because that's her 'expertise', and I'm finding myself more disengaged. Please advice.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[thisagain]

Hi Freeatlast,

I also come from a background that discouraged expressing emotions. At first people's constant expressions of intense emotions were just baffling to me, and even once I learned about validation on here, I also found it exhausting sometimes. Taking a break or time-out was really the only way I found to deal with it.

Do you think you could discuss with her ways for you to take a break without triggering her abandonment fear? Reassure her a little before you leave, give a definite time you'll come back, things like that. There are some more ideas here: How to take a time out.

Taking a break or time-out can also be important to enforce boundaries in a kind, low-conflict way. Making rules that you tell her to follow, and then "punishing her by ignoring her and avoiding her," is making the level of conflict worse and causing anxiety, probably for both of you. Boundaries are about YOU and your values. You can't control how she talks to you, but you can control whether you will continue to engage in the conversation. A good resource is: Getting Our Values and Boundaries in Order.

On a larger scale, I'm curious about a few things here. It looks like you were in a long BPD relationship before, that ended (hence "free at last". Did you have this same feeling in your previous relationship?

[Freeatlast_1]

Hi Thisagain

It is funny that you asked, I've been waiting for somebody to ask this question. Yes I was previously similar 3 year relationship that ended last year, this time. She had BPD too, which brings us to the reason that I happened to attract people with BPD. I have since seeked therapy to identify issues with my childhood, that resulted with me being attracted to that type of personality. This one, is in the psych field. She's very high level, and when I figured out that she had BPD 3-4 months in, I was on my way out of that relationship immediately. However she started consistently in DBT and therapy around her borderline traits. That kind of gave me hope, in keeping this relationship. But I have come to realize that, Despite the therapy, I don't think she will be hundred percent normal. I just have this gut feeling that I'm going to run into these issues in the future again. I have a very rigid boundary with disrespect. I don't think I can ever get over that. And I will not justify that because she has BPD. I really tried the validation, and I just cannot do it as often as she needs it. She happens to need it in a conflict situation, when I need it too. I just happened to be able to validate myself. I take space to myself, I work out, I meditate, I get with my friends, and I find a way to validate myself. I have discussed that with her, and because she's a psychologist, she refuses to validate herself and feels entitled to have a validating partner. She blames me for not being validating, and accuses me of being dismissive. She fires back by telling me that she disrespected me because I was being dismissive. There is always a reason that justifies her disrespect. I feel there is no win with this woman. I just need to get out of this dynamic, but I care too much, and I need to get over how much I care for her.

[Naughty Nibbler]

Freeatlast_1:

So sorry about your situation.  I think everyone wants mutual validation in a relationship.  The life of a physician has to be very demanding.  I can see that it would be important to you to come home to support and not feel like you are walking on eggshells.

Have you considered some therapy to help you sort things out?  Odds are that you will have to accept the fact that your current partner won't change for the long run, and that the current problems will likely continue to some degree throughout your relationship (if only intermittently). Joint counseling might be needed to deal with joint validation.

It has become so draining for me that I asked her to take a break. That of course triggered her abandonment, she felt rejected, and back to the verbal abuse again. I'm in a vicious cycle, I cannot seem to escape because I like her, she's very smart, And has a very bright future, and I want us to be a power couple.

What other positive attributes does she have, other than being smart and having the capacity of being part of a "power couple"?  Would being a power couple make you happier than having a nurturing and supportive partner?

Since many people with BPD can be intense and perhaps hypersexualized, it might seem that the euphoria of infatuation can become everlasting (at least during the good times). Are those good times so good that they substantiate enduring the bad times?  

Is this the person you would want to grow old with?  If she is of child-bearing age, would you want children with her (perhaps children with BPD)?  When you have one of the worst days of your life, and need support, will she be there for you or would you have to come home and validate her?  Unfortunately, pwBPD can seem normal to people in their work life, but they bring their emotional dysregulation home to those closest to them.

Some of these questions might be hard to answer, and a therapist could help you through a decision- making process.  What is most important for some people, might not be a priority for you.  Some people decide to stay with a pwBPD and accept the situation, others find that life becames better for them after they detached from their partner with BPD.  A less intense and volatile relationship might seem boring to some, but a source of comfort to others.

[ArleighBurke]

BPDs require validation. That is true. But it doesn't mean you don't have an opinion.

There is a technique called SET. Basically whenever you talk, you structure your paragraph as SUPPORT, EMPATHY then TRUTH. Support and Empathy form part of validation. You are essentially saying "I hear you", "What you feel is understandable", "I feel your emotion". But you then get to say "your truth".

So if she says "I feel like you never have time for me", the SET response can be: "I'm sorry i make you feel that way. It would be horrible to feel ignored or unimportant by your partner. We have just spent all weekend together - was that enjoyable?" (of course this needs to be in your words and can be longer if required)

All 3 elements of SET need to be there to be effecitive. Most men just say the T part - which makes a BPD not feel heard. Just saying S and E without T doesn't allow her to challange her emotion.

[Freeatlast_1]

ArleighBurke

 I have not read about the SET  method, but it does make a lot of sense. We are at the point now where we are having a lot of distructive  Conversations, both very activated. We are talking very different languages, she is coming from  A place that needs constant validation, reassurance, no dismissals or any type of double standards. She was heavily emotionally abused as a child. She was abandoned big time. She very easily projects her mother on to me, says  that I am identical to her mom, which is a very triggering for her. I come from a place where I was brought up in a healthy environment, was validated and  reassured, I have my issues, but I don't think I am that dependent on someone else to make me feel important and alive.  I asked her today to go  no contact, she was extremely rude and annoying.  I truly could not take it. I tried my very best, to handle myself, but I still went off at her. It is a major talent that I see people on here have, where they take the abuse and just not take it personally, watch someone  blame them  falsely, and continue to validate that person and their emotions and feelings. That is way beyond me. I can validate someone all the way when that person continues to respect me, but I find it extremely hard to maintain myself with that boundary is crossed.  I am not sure what's gonna happen now. We might start talking again, or maybe this is it. I will take it a day  at a time, I really care about this girl, but I'm finding myself more concerned about how I feel nowadays, because the stress level that I've been under from my  personal life as well as my career life is huge. I also I'm starting my own business, and I really need someone to just be soothing and comforting  when I come home. It is really tough because my emotions take control of me and I truly miss her. I'm trying to get over that. if we get back together again, I'll try SET method.


Naughty Nibbler
 You bring up a great points.  As for joint therapy, we  attempted that. Sometimes she takes accountability other times she blames, so after a few sessions of those, we realized that she needs to go to DBT and therapy and neurofeedback  which she's doing. And because she's doing all that she always says that she's doing her best. About her positive attributes, when she is acting normal, she is very funny supersensitive super sweet,  very intelligent, loves to read, has energy that everybody loves, she talks to anybody she  encounters, super friendly, very gentle, very empathetic, just all-around amazing. Until she distorts, then she starts beinng passive aggressive abnoxious and Verbally abusive. Do I want to grow old and gray with her? At this point no. It was a point where I thought that since she is in the psych field, and she is very proactive at getting help, maybe there's a possibility of growth. So I did picture It at that point.  I don't think I would want to have kids with her either, because I don't want my child to ever witness  her rage  or her impulsivity, or her reactions.  I think I would take my child and run if there was even one of these encounters, so no  not a good idea.  Believe me I would rather come home to somebody that is very calm, supportive, that is never boring for me. That is what I need. But somehow I attracted this woman, and somehow I fell in love and got attached.  A part of me wants to leave and then another part wants to work on it. Major confusion. Thats why I took five days off. But since she did not let me take five days off, we kept going at it for the first three days, and as for now we Broke it off.

[thisagain]

I understand feeling unable to take it personally, especially in the heat of an argument. I think the key is that, instead of reacting in the moment, you need to remove yourself from the conversation and take some time to cool down. You need to take responsibility for controlling your emotional reactions to perceived "disrespect," just like you're asking her to control hers.

There is a great book called The High-Conflict Couple that I think you could benefit from, regardless of how things end up with her. It's based on DBT principles and if you end up resuming the relationship, maybe you could get her to read it with you. The authors do a great job of avoiding any judgmental language re: pwBPD, or even using the phrase BPD. The focus is teaching both partners to recognize their emotions and communicate them in a productive, low-conflict way.

You mentioned seeking therapy to identify childhood issues that could be contributing on your end. How did that go? Did you gain any useful insight?

[Naughty Nibbler]

Freeatlast_1:  
 

I don't think I would want to have kids with her either, because I don't want my child to ever witness  her rage  or her impulsivity, or her reactions.  I think I would take my child and run if there was even one of these encounters, so no  not a good idea.

If having children is important to you, then she might not be the right life partner for you.

 

Believe me I would rather come home to somebody that is very calm, supportive, that is never boring for me. That is what I need.

A relationship with someone who is never boring?  Perhaps that logic is something you need to explore.  To NOT have either person get periodically bored in a relationship, would take a joint effort by both individuals.

Below is a link to an interesting article, "What Causes Boredom in Intimate Relationships?

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/rediscovering-love/201107/what-causes-boredom-in-intimate-relationshipss
 

But somehow I attracted this woman, and somehow I fell in love and got attached.  A part of me wants to leave and then another part wants to work on it. Major confusion. Thats why I took five days off. But since she did not let me take five days off, we kept going at it for the first three days, and as for now we Broke it off.

Taking a break right now could be a good thing.  It will give her time to concentrate on her therapy and give both of you relief from bickering.  After some time, you can always opt to test the waters regarding resuming a relationship.

[Freeatlast_1]

Naughty I think you missunderstood what I was trying to say. I tend to dictate the response so it probably wasn't written well.

I don't mean that I want someone "not boring". I meant that in response to your comment having a peaceful relationship is never boring to me, that's what I need.

Yes taking a break is good but I feel I'm in a break up. We are loosing the connection. I don't know but I feel we might not work out and it hurts.

Funny we tried removing ourselves from the conflict situation, it works 50% of the time. Othertimes we go at it like cats and dogs!

[Naughty Nibbler]

Freeatlast_1:

Naughty I think you missunderstood what I was trying to say. I tend to dictate the response so it probably wasn't written well.

I'm sorry I misunderstood.  I'm glad that a peaceful relationship is never boring for you.  

Yes taking a break is good but I feel I'm in a break up. We are loosing the connection. I don't know but I feel we might not work out and it hurts.

If you decide to resume contact in the immediate future (during the early stages of therapy), one approach is to communicate with each other by email or US Mail (not texting).  It is harder to bicker that way and it would give each of you the chance to think through and use some good communication skills (using some of lessons on this website). Perhaps, you set some rules and ask that you each hold onto what your write for 24 hours, reread it and edit if necessary before sending.   

If her therapy is beneficial to her, and she makes positive changes, then it might be possible to try couples counseling again.  That could be a test down the road, if you still want to make it work with her.  If, after some intensive therapy, she still can't seriously participate in couple's therapy, then you might have to face the fact that she may never change.  

Ending a relationship can be similar to dealing with a death.  The article below might be helpful.
Grieving: The Five Stages of a Relationship Loss
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=138154.0

[Freeatlast_1]

Naughty
She lives and breathes psych, reads books, goes to seminars etc I know she's working on herself and is willing in fact begging us to go to counseling and I'm the one who doesn't want to because in the fast I've ran into a lot of psych enablers and I don't have faith in most therapists. I know there is an issue with that but I tend to learn through reading and I'm great at analyzing and integrating things I learn online and In books. But I will consider therapy with her again. She is actively going to therapy now. The issue is contact with her gives me anxiety that I've never had before. I think the therapy I need is PTSD from all I had to go through w her and my ex. I am unhappy with her and attached to her because of issues with me. I am going to start dealing with my own issues first. I also have to become more validating to her if this is going to work. Her mom was the most abusive invalidating person alive to her, major trigger for her. Also I have double standards which she hates,  like when I am upset I want immediate reassurance and when she's upset I sometimes dismiss her and tell her why she shouldn't take it that way. I tend To give her the cold shoulder when she insults me, and stand up for myself rather than try to understand why she lashes out. I have a lot of responsibilities and my career is priority and I'm starting a huge business project so I don't deal with her day to day nagging and drama well, I dismiss her then address it later when my day slows down. So her and I aren't a good fit I think. I need someone more emotionally independent and can self validate and has lots of empathy and can wait until it's a good time to discuss dynamics. My gut is telling me run! My heart is aching and I'm afraid if I let her go I'll be hurting for many years and won't be able to move on! I just wish she can be a little supportive because I love a lot of things about her. I think I need to work on my anxiety first and maybe do some one on one therapy (try again) and meditation and self reflect.

[Naughty Nibbler]

Freeatlast_1:
All the communication skills you learn from this website and by other means, can only help you in various aspects of your life.  What is suggested for use with pwBPD, is beneficial to use with healthy people in the work place and elsewhere.  People with a high emotional IQ, generally fair better in life.  

I am going to start dealing with my own issues first. I also have to become more validating to her if this is going to work.

Another aspect of validation is: VALIDATION - DON'T INVALIDATE.  Is it possible that sometimes, she felt invalidated? Check out the link.

I think I need to work on my anxiety first and maybe do some one on one therapy (try again) and meditation and self reflect.

We all have work to do on ourselves.  Sounds like a good plan.   I'll suggest some tools

You might find the following book helpful:
THE HAPPINESS TRAP (Based on ACT Therapy):
I bought the Kindle version for my Ipad. If you go to the website below, you can print out several handouts/workbook sheets:

https://www.thehappinesstrap.com/free_resources

You might want to supplement your meditation with some mindfulness practice.  The link below will take you to a practice exercise.  Sometimes, if you don't have time to meditate, you can work in some mindfulness exercises into some daily tasks.

https://www.thehappinesstrap.com/upimages/Informal_Mindfulness_Exercises.pdf

This last address will take you to a DBT Self-Help Website with ideas to "Improve the Moment".

www.dbtselfhelp.com/html/improve_the_moment_worksheet.html

[Meili]

VALIDATION - DON'T INVALIDATE[/b].  Is it possible that sometimes, she felt invalidated? Check out the link.

I have found myself doing this far too often. When I thought that I was validating my x, I was actually invalidating her. I would say something like:

I can see how you would feel that way.

That is actually quite invalidating. It does acknowledge that I see how she feels, but also tells her that I don't see it that way - which is the same thing to her as me telling her that she and her feelings are wrong.

Another thing that I used to do is:

I understand that, but... .

The inclusion of the "but" is the problem there. Again, it comes across as telling her that she's wrong.

I learned a lot from this article on Validation Skill - Stop Invalidating Others.

[Freeatlast_1]

Freeatlast_1:
All the communication skills you learn from this website and by other means, can only help you in various aspects of your life.  What is suggested for use with pwBPD, is beneficial to use with healthy people in the work place and elsewhere.  People with a high emotional IQ, generally fair better in life.  

I totally agree. I like the resources you listed very much. I will definitely start implementing some of them. I just feel that I wish she was person whom I don't have to constantly validate or avoid invalidating. I have been invalidated all my life, it's a cultural thing, but it didn't really bother me. I know my family cares about me and would do anything for me and have proven that over and over, but they are invalidating by nature. So I know where my invalidation came from, partly my family, and partly because it's cultural. People have proven love for me through support and acts of service, and I have been taught to do the same. I don't care how validated someone makes me feel, if they walk away when I need them, that's the biggest invalidation I can get. So people are different and my GF needs verbal invalidation more than anything... .it's exhausting to do... .but I will try. I hope I won't lose myself in the process.

[Naughty Nibbler]

Freeatlast_1:   

I have been invalidated all my life, it's a cultural thing, but it didn't really bother me. I know my family cares about me and would do anything for me and have proven that over and over, but they are invalidating by nature. So I know where my invalidation came from, partly my family, and partly because it's cultural.

You have an opportunity to reform your cultural mold.  Hold onto the positive aspects of your culture and get rid of the negative aspect (invalidation).  The same thing with the typical behavior you grew up with in your family.  Your above statements show you recognize the root cause of some of your challenges with validation/not invalidating.  That can be a big step towards improvement. 

  I don't care how validated someone makes me feel, if they walk away when I need them, that's the biggest invalidation I can get. So people are different and my GF needs verbal validation more than anything... .it's exhausting to do... .but I will try.

   
Both of you have demanding professions that can be stressful.  Perhaps, you both have to work out some degree of compromise.  I'm thinking that there are different levels of validation needs (i.e., someone in the family died, lost your job versus a bad day at work).  Perhaps, there needs to be some agreement that at times, you can agreeably give a brief validation, with a promise to have a more in-depth conversation later.  (i.e. I can hear that you are stressed and upset.  I'm sorry you had some problems at work.  Can we talk about it this evening after dinner?)

I hope I won't lose myself in the process.

   
You have to decide what is most important to you and what you can live with.  I'm thinking that you both won't get 100% validation from each other.  So, you have to decide what you can live with.  Is it okay that you validate her 80% of the time and she validates you 70% of the time?  We are all human and no one is perfect.  Even the best validators can have a bad day occasionally, or not always be available to instantly validate to the degree that someone would want.

[Freeatlast_1]

I applied some validation skills today when I saw her. It took us 7 minutes after not seeing each other for 5 days to lash out and verbally emotionally violate and abuse each other. I tried to hold it but wow the stuff she was saying, insulting my looks my character my culture. I kicked her out of my car and drove off. I felt like I unloaded a bomb . I think my relationship is over. I'm insanely stressed.

[Meili]

What caused you to go from validating to lashing out within 7 minutes?

[Freeatlast_1]

What caused you to go from validating to lashing out within 7 minutes?

I didn't want to go into details, and honestly I don't even remember the issue at hand, maybe it was a silly one... .I really don't remember. I just remember she was trying to prove a phone and starting yelling. I told her to stop yelling, she wouldn't, then I asked her to leave, she refused and started abusive language, and I reciprocated. But honestly... .what the issue was... .probably something dumb... .I forgot about it, survival amnesia LOL

[Meili]

I don't think that the issue is what is important here; how it escalated is.

What you described sounds like a complete communication breakdown.

I just remember she was trying to prove a phone and starting yelling. I told her to stop yelling

Based on what you wrote, she was clearly upset by something. Rather than telling her what to do, could you have found a way to validate what she was feeling?

she wouldn't, then I asked her to leave

I'm confused by this. Asked her to leave your car?

she refused and started abusive language, and I reciprocated.

Have you thought about why you chose to escalate the situation by engaging?

These are the things that I was talking about when I asked what caused things to go from validation to raging within 7 minutes.

While we cannot prevent all raging, we can minimize the rages and help to keep things on a more even keel. Have you checked out the 3 Minute Lesson on Ending Conflict?

[Skip]

I'm with you. Validation, or just not being invalidating is difficult life skill to master. Sounds easy enough, but its not. I'm a skiier and it reminds me of skiing in one way - learning is not a lot of fun. It's only when you master it, does it not feel tedious. And its not a silver bullet - but is one tool to keep our heads above the emotional turmoil of our partner.

I don't think that the issue is what is important here; how it escalated is.

This is another good one. As couples we fight over the same thing, over and over. Just knowing that is a great perspective to have.

How are you creating healthy space for yourself when you feel worn down?

[Aussie0zborn]

+1 for the S.E.T. technique. I learned it too late but it's incredibly effective -almost like a snake charmer pacifying a raging bull.

I'm curious as to why you allowed yourself to get involved further after recognising the BPD symptoms when you had prior experience with BPD.

I came across the same thing recently and reduced it to a friendship ... .coffee, occasional cheap dinners, etc. but found it took me three days to detox after seeing her each time. I opted to maintain my own happiness and peaceful life and let it go.