Boundaries for Tweens

[westexy]

First I want to to thank everyone that contributes their time to share guidance with others on this site. I showed up here a month or two ago in crisis. I quickly received advice that would help me change my life – no exaggeration there. I have begun focusing on myself and my child, establishing boundaries, not invalidating, etc.
A question that has come up is boundaries related to my child who is almost 13. The other night was a bad night. My husband was stressed about something unrelated to me or our child but as it goes, he started to insult and criticize me, which I was able to shut down somewhat successfully. Then he took it to our son at the dinner table. What my husband wanted to communicate to my son about son’s behavior was valid, but the way he did it was inappropriate, mean, humiliating, etc and he would not stop. Then once my son started crying, you could see my husband relax. He started asking if we were enjoying the food that he prepared for us, making small talk, etc. I had lost my appetite. Son was distraught. Neither of us wanted to eat. Husband got angry and left.
If it had been just me, I would have left the table and gone to another room, but I don’t know what to do if it’s all three of us together. My husband says that I am going against him if I don’t “take his side”. This is further complicated when his point is valid but his delivery is unacceptable.
What is the right boundary here, or the most productive way to communicate a boundary? I want my son to be able to exit a situation like the other night, but at his age and maturity level, I can’t make it his responsibility to maintain that boundary with his dad, whom he loves and respects. I also don’t want to ramp things up if not necessary by suggesting that son leave the table and eat in the tv room or something like that, even though that seems very reasonable to me. Suggestions? Have you already established a boundary like this in your family?

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[waverider]

What my husband wanted to communicate to my son about son’s behavior was valid, but the way he did it was inappropriate, mean, humiliating, etc and he would not stop.

This the key point, unfortunately when we get involved in trying to resolve these things we end up getting dragged into debating the first aspect, and hence invalidating them, rather than sticking to the delivery aspect.

Unfortunately pwBPD struggle to separate the issues, disagreement with part=disagreement with everything

Your son being visibly upset signals to your H that he was heard and hence validated. Your H is driven by the immediate need to be heard rather than the bigger issue of effectively resolving the problem.ie reacting to the emotion, which is most likely anger/frustration

The best way around this is to reinforce that while his opinion is valid, and that you agree with it (if you do) you do not appreciate the aggressive way it is being expressed.(This is the SET format).

It is the difference between him talking to your son rather than just lecturing him. Talking creates more understanding and cooperation then lecturing where the delivery overwhelms the message.

Also as part of what you have learned here you are more likely to be talking about issues with your H rather than just lecturing him. Ask him if that works for him, and ask him if that approach were used by him with your son whether he thinks it might work better for the same reasons. Asking his opinion of a suggestion is part validating his view

Bottom line is attempting to dictate to people breeds rebellion leading to further loss of compliance and openness. Unfortunately dictating is the instinctive go to response unless you are taught otherwise.

Using the above SET approach to raise this issue with your H is an example of talking rather than dictating

[BowlOfPetunias]

If it had been just me, I would have left the table and gone to another room, but I don’t know what to do if it’s all three of us together. My husband says that I am going against him if I don’t “take his side”. This is further complicated when his point is valid but his delivery is unacceptable.

Unfortunately, sometimes I don't know which wife I am supposed to be backing up.  The one who punished our son by telling him he can't have his phone or the one that gave him the phone back a short while later?  The one who wants me to yell at the kids or the one that thinks that every time I say boo (much more quietly than her) I am committing child abuse?  Because either one will be wrong.

When rages against the kids happen, I begin with validation ("Yes, it is very frustrating that he/she is... ."

I then move into the boundary setting.   "OK.  What do you want him to do now?"  "I want him to apologize!"  "He already apologized."  "He did?"  "Yes, he did.  Unless there is something else he can do right now, I don't think that there is any reason to continue going over what he did wrong."

[BowlOfPetunias]

Also, my wife's rages against the kids appear to be motivated by anger at herself projected on to them.  She has always wanted to be a "supermom" and thought that parenting would be easy.  (She even told me that it would be easier if we had a second kid because they entertain each other and stay out of trouble!  In reality, their fighting drives her crazy.)  For example, cloth diapers are better than disposable diapers.  Good mothers use cloth diapers.  Bad mothers use disposable diapers.  But the cloth diapers were giving our daughter bad rashes.  It took a long time for her to finally give up being a "good mother" to do something that actually helped our daughter's health.

In the case of misbehavior, what our kids do wrong (not cleaning their rooms, sneaking his phone and staying up late, not doing homework, etc.) must mean that she is a bad mother.  If she were a good mother, then there wouldn't be any problems.  Inner rage gets redirected outward because it is too painful.  It is their fault that she is a bad mother.  If they would only listen and behave than she would be a good mother.  And it should be easy!

I, on the other hand, always assumed that it would be hard to be a father and was never sure that I would be good at it.

[waverider]

kids being used as projections of a BPD parent are common. Especially if they are not perfect representations in public. Kids are a representation or the parents ability rather than just being individuals or even worse kids exploring boundaries.

Gets even worse when the kids start to mirror the parent, then it becomes chicken and egg and self fueling.

So in a sense the parent wants the child to be the representation of what the parent would like to be, rather than what the parent actually is... An impossible goal without intervention from the other parent.

[BowlOfPetunias]

Gets even worse when the kids start to mirror the parent, then it becomes chicken and egg and self fueling.

Unfortunately, our son becomes focused on giving my wife "a taste of her own medicine."  I have tried to explain to him that this never worked for me and it won't work for him.

[westexy]

Thank you for the feedback and validation everyone. I'm going to read more about SET and practice it more over the next week. I think I can teach my son a few techniques as well. Having a child involved makes this whole situation so much more complicated and painful - - but you all know that. 

[waverider]

Gets even worse when the kids start to mirror the parent, then it becomes chicken and egg and self fueling.

Unfortunately, our son becomes focused on giving my wife "a taste of her own medicine."  I have tried to explain to him that this never worked for me and it won't work for him.

That is human nature and one of the main reasons pwBPD end up in conflict with everyone. Until you you learn about the disorder and the futility of doing this it is inevitable. It is the reason pwBPD then invariably switch to "bullied victim" mode, as the other person starts to fight back.