We both are in pain

[WendyDavid]

Right after my last post on this site, my ex came home.  He wanted to talk about how he felt about our future friendship.  I had to push for honest responses and the answers I heard are making me question myself.  What is wrong with me?

For background information, I had cancer last year.  When I told my ex (husband at the time) that test results came back but they haven't determined my stage, my ex would not be supportive.  A few days later, I made the discovery that my ex had gone out of town the day after I told him I had cancer to have sex with the woman he molested years ago as a child.  Then, I discovered that my ex was having an affair with a narcissist and had other affairs in the past.  Upon hearing that I had a disease that could kill me, he decided not to be supportive.  He told me he didn't like me.  Since then, I've beat cancer and he and I have been working on our relationship.  He went to the doctor and was diagnosed with BPD and two other illnesses.  More of his secrets were revealed and I decided that I must divorce if I'm going to collect any strength at all.  My thoughts were I can't save him if I can't save myself.

Last night we talked about his behavior when he found out I had cancer.  He started out with lies.  I can tell because he cannot support his claims.  After a lot of pushing from me, he finally revealed that he has zero empathy.  He has never experienced it.  His real thoughts about my cancer at the time were more about how does he not look bad if I die.  He was worried that my treatment would make his narc gf act differently.  Mostly he was worried about how to avoid blame.

So I tried to get him to imagine that he was me.  It took a lot of work, but finally he said that if he had cancer and I said I didn't like him, that he would eat.  We talked about how he feels to emotionally eat.  I asked what he really wanted to do if he found out that I didn't like him when he thought he could die.  He said he wanted me to feel his sadness and fear. 

So we had two breakthroughs.  One is that I was married to someone that only saw me as an accessory to his life.  The other is that he wants to give and receive empathy so that he can feel whole.  I want to continue helping him on his path to wholeness but I'm severely wounded by his thoughts of me as an object.  If I leave now, his abandonment fear will take over and he will be worse than before we started.  If I stick around, I'm going to lose myself.  We have determined that the therapy is not making progress and he has too much shame to really tell his doctor anything deeply emotional.  His family cannot handle him and have stated they need their distance.

Any advice?

[patientandclear]

This is an insightful, honest, searching post.  You seem able to call it like you see it with yourself and to a significant degree, with him.  No small feat.

I'm struck by the internal irony of this comment:

... .he wants to give and receive empathy so that he can feel whole.

Seeking to achieve empathy for this reason seems at odds with the very concept of empathy.  It evokes the concept of narcissistic altruism, where what appears to be generosity is really selfish.  Why, given his motivations, does this hook you as an important project?

[formflier]

Are there kids involved?

You have presented the choices to us as "go and find youself"... .versus... ."stay and get lost again"

Are there other options?

Take some time to focus on patientandclear's question.

My advice is that you are sure that you have found yourself first, before making long term decisions.

This is not advice to leave but I would hope you could incorporate this as a value to guide yourself in life.  Living life in such a way that you have to loose yourself, is not a life worth living.

Thoughts?

Final thought from me:  Very insightful post.  Lots to work with there.

FF

[WendyDavid]

Thank you for your hard-hitting questions.  What patientandclear said about empathy is something I really need to evaluate.  Its so hard to empathize with him without feeling like I'm mentally ill too that sometimes I miss seeing things clearly. 

For some background on this:  We were together for about 19 years.  Our lives are totally intertwined still.  Our divorce was days ago.  We have no children.  I may have to write a whole new post on why we were together for 19yrs without kids.  Almost all of our friends are mutual friends and we both have therapists to talk to, even though we both are feeling emotionally distant to our therapists.

My ex is very much aware of his emotional void and his behaviors to fill the void.  He's done a little research on this subject and is looking for healthy ways to deal with his emotions.  He talks about being "Pinocchio" and wants to experience what others feel that he lacks.

Help me if I'm wrong about this.  I thought altruistic narcissism was like "I think I'm a great person because I made you feel good" and empathy is "your pain evokes my pain.  I want to soothe my pain.  Let me make a safe place for your pain and we can both be soothed".  They both sound selfish, but one sounds worse than the other.  I think empathy sounds like emotional bonding and that breaks isolation.  If you are a person with a big emotional hole inside you and you are isolated, you fill that hole with physical objects like food, alcohol, porn, etc.  For me, I'd want a person to help me fill that hole with emotions.  But he is not me.  Do pwBPD not want the same things Nons want?

From formflier and patientandclear I'm feeling the vibe of "leave".  I hear the questioning of "is it really empathy? Maybe he didn't have a breakthrough".  It sound like if I stay we'll have two broken people.  There is no hope for two healthy people.

[formflier]

Clarity:  No nudge to stay or go.  You are divorced.  You are in process of "finding yourself".  If you don't "find yourself", or at least have a much clearer picture of who you are and what you want, you have zero business being in any relationship, let alone one with a pwBPD.

Quick summary of me:  Retired military, (naval aviator).  "Navigating" through life is a big deal.  I like to put things in terms of "good, better, best"

Best:  Both parties know who they are, where they are going and make conscious decision to join with another person and go there together.

Better:  One person knows who they are and where they are going.  Another person is confused (or has a PD) and chooses to go through life with this person.  Or does this by default.  This situation still works out for both parties.

Good:  (I'll change this to "bad"  Neither party knows who they are or where they are going.  Each person attempts to navigate off the other person.  Each person is unhappy with where they are going and blames to the other for "navigational errors"

I hope this illustrates my thinking.  If you can get to a place where you believe you can do the "better" concept, then it may be worth talking about a r/s with your ex again.  Until then, focus on job 1.

This doesn't mean NC (no contact) until you get to "better", but it should mean that you are deliberate about sorting yourself out and letting him sort himself out.

Thoughts? 

FF

[schwing]

Hi WendyDavid,

Help me if I'm wrong about this.  I thought altruistic narcissism was like "I think I'm a great person because I made you feel good" and empathy is "your pain evokes my pain.  I want to soothe my pain.  Let me make a safe place for your pain and we can both be soothed".  They both sound selfish, but one sounds worse than the other.  I think empathy sounds like emotional bonding and that breaks isolation. 

My understanding is that an altruistic narcissist may be less toxic than say a malignant narcissist. But the "altruistic" aspect has more to do with how they want to be perceived (by others) more than trying to understand/fix what ails you; the perception of altruism is more important that actually being altruistic.

By definition, narcissists lack empathy. I would define empathy as the innate ability to feel what other people also feel *without* having to think about it; like the gut reaction to feeling another's pain by also feeling a similar pain. And so narcissists can sympathize with other people (i.e., intellectually understand other people's pain) but they don't have the automatic or innate ability to feel what other people feel. I think us nons take empathy for granted.

So as I see it, empathy is more like "I see that you are in pain, and I also feel that pain to a lesser degree" however how I choose to respond to that empathetic pain may be an entirely different process.

People with BPD (pwBPD) can feel empathy. However their own disordered feelings may be so overwhelming that it overrides their empathetic perception.  In my experience, pwBPD can be far more empathetic towards complete strangers than towards their closest loved ones.

If you are a person with a big emotional hole inside you and you are isolated, you fill that hole with physical objects like food, alcohol, porn, etc.  For me, I'd want a person to help me fill that hole with emotions.  But he is not me.  Do pwBPD not want the same things Nons want?

PwBPD may experience emptiness and so have a desire to fill it with impulsive and/or physically gratifying experiences. However, they also have an unexpected reaction to what nons might consider emotionally gratifying experiences.  My understanding is that for pwBPD, feelings of closeness, familiarity, intimacy are also a trigger for their disordered feelings (i.e. fear of abandonment).

So pwBPD might believe that they want the same things that nons want, such as feeling close, vulnerable and secure in an intimate, familial relationship; but some don't seem to acknowledge that these kinds of relationship also trigger traumatic feelings in them.  They want one without the other, but cannot accept that the negative feelings they are also experiencing are a product of their disorder.

More often than not, they blame us for how they feel. "I'm feeling like you are betraying me, so you must be betraying me."

For background information, I had cancer last year.  When I told my ex (husband at the time) that test results came back but they haven't determined my stage, my ex would not be supportive.  A few days later, I made the discovery that my ex had gone out of town the day after I told him I had cancer to have sex with the woman he molested years ago as a child. 

For example, when a loved one becomes sick. This kind of personal crisis would usually bring people closer to each other.  However for a pwBPD, this additional closeness can then become a big trigger for their disordered feelings such as fear of abandonment.  So even though you were sick, your ex was more preoccupied by his disordered feelings. In his mind, your illness was perceived as abandonment; if you were to die, he would be left/abandoned by you. And this is why he ran to other women.  In order to avoid abandonment, he needed to abandon you first.

From formflier and patientandclear I'm feeling the vibe of "leave".  I hear the questioning of "is it really empathy? Maybe he didn't have a breakthrough".  It sound like if I stay we'll have two broken people.  There is no hope for two healthy people.

I will not advocate either suggestions that you stay or leave. I just want you to understand your situation better so that you can make the best choice for yourself.

I know that there have been times that he has helped you to feel not broken. Personally I believe that broken people (a club to which I consider myself a member) can only be fixed by themselves. But we can get help from others.

That said, I wonder if the way that you feel healed by someone such as your ex, does not exacerbate your ex's broken nature? And even though he is looking for healthier ways to deal with his emotions, is he more apt to attribute his disordered behaviors to you rather that to himself?

Maybe he can face his feelings of emptiness. But I don't consider that to be the biggest issue he needs to face before he can even begin to change his behaviors.

Best wishes,

Schwing

[WendyDavid]

Thank you for giving me your perspectives.  It really helps to hear point of views on our relationship from people outside the relationship.  Like I said, almost all our friends are mutual, so I really can't talk about this with other people.

I hear what formflier is saying and that makes a lot of sense.  I've contacted a realtor today.  I'm taking actions to physically remove myself so that I can have the peace I need to get back to being myself.  When I add up what my lawyer, my ex's therapist, and the realtor are saying, I'm calculating a few more months of living with my ex.  I still have to make that decision about "leaving" which means that I look for someone new, let him struggle with his own problems, and stay away from emotional abuse or I "stay" which means letting potential boyfriends know that my ex is still in my life, work with my ex on his problems, and get myself ready to take abuse whenever he falls down.

I cry on a daily basis about loving someone that doesn't have the feelings I assumed he had.  I read what schwing is saying and it sounds better than what I was thinking before.  Learning about BPD was a total shock to me.  I never imagined someone could be like this on the inside.  I see him flip back and forth about what he wants.  I've read about pwBPD doing that.  He's lied so much to me and everyone that I can't tell which "version" is the real him.  He was not diagnosed with NPD, but I worry that even his tears are a lie.  I might be paranoid, I might be intuitive.  I can't tell.  However, schwing's words have me back to research again.  Thank you for that direction.  Feeling empathy might not be the problem, but maybe how he deals with empathy.  Closeness = abandonment is pretty much getting reinforced by our divorce.  I'll talk to him more about this when he is having one of his better moments.  Or maybe I should wait until I have my own place before trying to touch his internal wounds.  I don't know. 

[formflier]

  get myself ready to take abuse whenever he falls down.

   

This type of thinking is a huge thing to think about and discuss with your T. 

It's one thing to stick around while a partner is saying outrageous or abusive things is something truly unique has happened and they are truly in shock.  ie. just found out about a death.

Even then... .there is a threshold where you leave.

But... .the thinking that you will "have to" take abuse from a pwBPD is not good thinking.

I cry on a daily basis about loving someone that doesn't have the feelings I assumed he had. 

Better to base your feelings of love on how you feel in the r/s.  Let your partner have their own feelings.  The trouble with pwBPD is they usually let their feelings drive dysfunctional behaviors.

I do get what you mean.  You thought he loved you the way you loved him.

Here is a news flash:  Very likely he did and at times still does.  But those feelings are not stable.  When he has other feelings about you, he is invalidated by memories of loving you... .so paints a new reality to match the feelings of the moment.

I would try to back away from thinking they "always" lie or have lied about their feelings.  Likely they meant it when they said it.  But feelings change very rapidly for them and they have trouble accurately "remembering" how they used to feel.

FF

[Cat Familiar]

 I still have to make that decision about "leaving" which means that I look for someone new, let him struggle with his own problems, and stay away from emotional abuse or I "stay" which means letting potential boyfriends know that my ex is still in my life, work with my ex on his problems, and get myself ready to take abuse whenever he falls down.


I'm not getting your thinking process. You're divorced. You care about him. I get that. But you seem incredibly enmeshed in his life, hoping to make some huge change in his persona.

If it didn't happen in the 19 years you've been together, what makes you think it can happen now?

If he isn't there for you as a supportive loving partner, why are you still clinging to him, hoping for some miraculous change?

You're getting a sense of who he truly is. You could spend the rest of your life trying to rehabilitate him emotionally and likely be in the same place you are now.

What I don't understand is what you're getting out of this.

I know these questions sound cold-hearted, but you've been with this man for nearly two decades. Is continuing to be in his orbit a path with heart for you? And if so, why?

[WendyDavid]

Its a little hard to think of what I'm getting out of this when I can't really leave just now.  I feel like I'm a buoy that can't get to shore as long as I am still living with him. 

Let me tell a story that shook me up.  Months ago, I found out that my husband was telling damaging lies about me and telling my secrets to people.  I also found out that a woman he was friends with for years was giving him advice about covering up an affair.  So one day, I called that friend (no anger or yelling, I just wanted to know what was going on.  I already suspected my husband might have a mental problem).  We talked for a long time.  She started telling me all about her family and her husband's family.  She told me her father-in-law was a pedophile.  He molested his granddaughter.  This woman says "how could his wife know he had this problem and still let him near his granddaughter?".  I just froze in place because I knew my own husband molested someone years ago and still was attracted to little girls.  Then this woman told me how she blocked my husband from Facebook because he made sexual jokes about her underage daughter.  What was more crazy is he said it to her - the mother.  Why she still talked to him on the phone every week after that may attest to her own mental issues.  I started opening my eyes to what my husband was doing.  Who are these friends of his?  The women he had cheated with?  What else is he doing?  Needless to say, I'm not just paranoid.  Its too real for me not to admit it.

Lately when he is in his calm and honest moods, he's started opening up about his fears.  One that I didn't expect was that he was afraid he was going to kill someone.  I cannot imagine him doing this, but so far everything he has warned my about in his fantasies has shown up in his life.  He really wants to drink.  He can't drink right now because of his medication from his psychiatrist.  Each time he's had one drink during the time he started the medication, he has hit someone.  He says he's afraid that the fear of abandonment will overwhelm him and he will go to a bar to talk to people and drink away his feelings.  He is afraid of his own rage coming out.

So obviously I want to be far away from him.  To me, this is all new stuff.  I feel like a monster killed my husband.  However, I feel pain for him and for other people too.  If it is possible to make this stop, I want to know.  If its possible that he won't be a monster, I would not leave him to fight it out alone (because he really has no one except toxic people).  I will continue to work on myself.  Maybe after I'm physically out of his life, I will feel different.

I could always find someone else to be supportive in my life.  I could find someone else to be a healthy friend and/or partner.  I've been talking to family members of addicted people and they talk about "cutting the chord" to let the addict fail and how that is something they need.  I know I can do it, but I don't know if I should do it.  I think that if my ex really can feel empathy, he won't hurt people.  Am I the only one that thinks this way?

I don't know if I explained things clearly enough in this post, but this one was a real emotional challenge for me.

[Cat Familiar]

WendyDavid, I hope things are better for you in the last couple of weeks. I understand you want to try to teach your ex to feel empathy in order that he won't either kill someone or molest a child. I'm not sure this goal is possible without much professional therapy, and even then, I wonder.

I hope that you can pursue a life that is fulfilling to you rather than try to save someone who doesn't seem like he's too interested in being saved.   

[Lucky Jim]

Hey WendyDavid,

Not only are you both in pain, but I am under the impression that you are attempting to carry your Ex's pain for him, which is usually an unhealthy dynamic for both parties.  Could this be an apt description of your situation?

What would YOU like to see happen?  I am unclear.  Fill us in, when you can.

LuckyJim

[WendyDavid]

I'm sorry that I've been off the site for a while.  I've been looking at other sources that focus more on pedophilia. 

I'm back because I'm sure I want to detach.  I'm really ready to sell the house, leave almost everything else I own behind, leave the state, and start over.  Since my last post, I've had to call the police on two occasions to end his physical violence on me.  I've not seen him violent in any way since 2001 and now he is really losing it.

I'm wondering if I will ever get over my fear that he will hurt someone.  Everything I read about grooming children for abuse and about men who got away with it for years and finally told their story, I have seen similar actions in my ex.  And there is also his fear (now mine too) that he will attack someone.  I've informed his family and his therapist.  Now the local police know that he is having problems.  I know I have done all that I can do that allows me to walk away.

But here is the thing:  It seems like no one really cares that he can hurt people.  I really think that his family is unable to deal with his issues and they don't even know where to start.  I think that his therapist isn't as competent as I'd like.  But maybe I just don't understand the psychology of constantly delaying the discussion of every serious issue.  As we know, pwBPD can walk away from therapy as soon as they get uncomfortable confronting their feelings.  Maybe that's why the therapist is so slow to deal with anything.  My ex even agrees that the molestation he did years ago was a way to avoid certain feelings.  Maybe what looks like "doing nothing" is actually doing something.

Anyway, I'm getting the impression from the feedback that maybe I'm alone in this idea that he can be empathetic.  His therapist and psychologist are both saying he is improving, but I don't feel like it was because of anything they were doing.  And he is violent sometimes, now.  So how is he getting better?  Are these the people I'm entrusting to protect children?

In an attempt to be clear:  I am afraid.  Mostly I'm afraid for others.  I think I'd feel this way about anyone I knew that had his problems.  By knowing him for so long, I can't brush off the fear (and maybe guilt for being blind for so long).  I can't push this off to other people (though I've tried).  I think I may be safe if I go away.  I'm almost sure that I can avoid anything terrifying he could do to me if I leave him.

Should I just start getting used to the idea that there are harmful people in this world and I just happen to know one of them very well?

[patientandclear]

Annie, just want to commend you for the clear eyed realism reflected in your post, and the effort you are going to to protect others. You're wonderful. Don't lose sight of your own right to joy and peace in the effort to do right by the rest of the world ... .But your analysis of the seriousness and potential for real harm seems very well-founded.