Issues with codependency

[Depression = 72% of members]

It's obvious here that everyone has labelled themselves as the codependent. The hero of the piece who made a few mistakes in the relationship but certainly wasn't to blame. But has anyone looked up codependency.

We're actually not that different to borderlines. We accuse them of seeing things as black and white and yet from what I can see (and am guilty of) we blame everything on the BPD with very little responsibility of why we ended up here in the first place and why we stayed.

We also speak of their abandonment issues and forget that we too have abandonment issues.

So a little explanation of codependency. BPDs will pull you in until you want them, to which they get scared and push you back. As a codependent, we resist being pulled in when they pull and in the moments they stop pulling we then chase, for example if their attention goes else where, we don't like it and particularly in a break up where they'll look for another lover.

Essentially we are the introverted end of the spectrum where they are the extroverted versions and we each want what the other has, but eventually this is what causes the resentment in each other when we realise we can't take what the other has.

I see a lot of talk about how BPD works, but in truth I see very little from people on here willing to talk about themselves and their own independent issues outside of their codependent relationship.

So I thought I'd see if I could get the ball rolling and see if we can relate to each other on an independent level.

I really want to learn what it means to be codependent and more specifically what we can do to overcome it, in particular the RIGHT WAY to support each other.

Our BPDs are gone and I would like to stop concentrating on them and learn how to fully commit to myself and the people who are good in my life. I also want to find a new partner that I can just like for who they are and not want to save them.

I guess childhood issues would be a good place to start here. My dad had a temper: I have several memories as a kid of being pinned to the floor by my throat etc. He was also detached from me and my siblings and solely stayed for my mum. He has had therapy since after 3 failed overdoses. He's a better man now and I have a stable relationship with him now. I remember my mum letting it happen, if not encouraging (I suspect that she used us as a scapegoat so he wouldn't take it out on her). For example, she'd tell us off, we'd eventually apologise and everything is sorted. She'd tell my dad when he got home, knowing what his reaction would always be, and he'd always fly at us like we were adults. No restraint. No accepting that we didn't know any better. And the cycle would repeat.

Our feelings would be undermined too. My parents would make jokes to lighten the mood the next day on a serious situation such as having my head smacked against the wall by my dad and my mum allowing it to happen.

I understand I can't keep going around in circles of blame and would appreciate any advice on how to overcome this so that I can get a sense of self esteem back.

[Cleanglass]

It's obvious here that everyone has labelled themselves as the codependent. The hero of the piece who made a few mistakes in the relationship but certainly wasn't to blame. But has anyone looked up codependency.

We're actually not that different to borderlines. We accuse them of seeing things as black and white and yet from what I can see (and am guilty of) we blame everything on the BPD with very little responsibility of why we ended up here in the first place and why we stayed.

We also speak of their abandonment issues and forget that we too have abandonment issues.

So a little explanation of codependency. BPDs will pull you in until you want them, to which they get scared and push you back. As a codependent, we resist being pulled in when they pull and in the moments they stop pulling we then chase, for example if their attention goes else where, we don't like it and particularly in a break up where they'll look for another lover.

Essentially we are the introverted end of the spectrum where they are the extroverted versions and we each want what the other has, but eventually this is what causes the resentment in each other when we realise we can't take what the other has.

I see a lot of talk about how BPD works, but in truth I see very little from people on here willing to talk about themselves and their own independent issues outside of their codependent relationship.

So I thought I'd see if I could get the ball rolling and see if we can relate to each other on an independent level.

I really want to learn what it means to be codependent and more specifically what we can do to overcome it, in particular the RIGHT WAY to support each other.

Our BPDs are gone and I would like to stop concentrating on them and learn how to fully commit to myself and the people who are good in my life. I also want to find a new partner that I can just like for who they are and not want to save them.

I guess childhood issues would be a good place to start here. My dad had a temper: I have several memories as a kid of being pinned to the floor by my throat etc. He was also detached from me and my siblings and solely stayed for my mum. He has had therapy since after 3 failed overdoses. He's a better man now and I have a stable relationship with him now. I remember my mum letting it happen, if not encouraging (I suspect that she used us as a scapegoat so he wouldn't take it out on her). For example, she'd tell us off, we'd eventually apologise and everything is sorted. She'd tell my dad when he got home, knowing what his reaction would always be, and he'd always fly at us like we were adults. No restraint. No accepting that we didn't know any better. And the cycle would repeat.

Our feelings would be undermined too. My parents would make jokes to lighten the mood the next day on a serious situation such as having my head smacked against the wall by my dad and my mum allowing it to happen.

I understand I can't keep going around in circles of blame and would appreciate any advice on how to overcome this so that I can get a sense of self esteem back.

[TheRose]

Very well said. I realized, as soon as my ex broke up with me, that there has to be something wrong with me to get pulled into a relationship like this. As in... .we all agree that our BPD exes need therapy. But I am pretty sure that I need therapy too. People with stable emotions usually don't stay in a push/pull relationship.
And even though I'm sure that I love my ex for who she is, I am also sure that I got addicted to the attention she gave me during the idealization phase. The phase that started this rollercoaster from heaven to hell and back. It's like I have a certain need to hear I'm beautiful. That I'm the one. That I'm all good. That I'm her rescuing angel.

I once read a book about how people with fear of abandoment attract people with fear of intimacy. It's a constant cycle and hard to step out of that cycle. Because people with fear of intimacy usually hide a fear of abandonment in themselves as well. So it's like chasing on and off all the time. Having said that, I do realize I have pushed people away myself as well. Pretty normal and boring women actually. Women who can actually be in a serious and loving relationship. But I push them away because I need someone who is more exciting than that. And after pushing all these "boring" faithful and trustworhty women away, I met my ex. My BPD ex. Well. We all know how that love story ends. Not boring at all.

I know and realized a few years ago that I have a strong need to be a saviour in a relationship. Which is something I hate. When I first met my ex, I decided to not save her. However, I failed. I tried really hard to save her. And the rollercoaster... .I got addicted to that. pwBPD are so unpredictable yet predictable that it is addicting.

And yes, codependency is a serious thing we all need to work on. And that is why I haven't reached out at all after my ex broke up. I need to work on me and myself first and foremost. Yes, I miss her terribly. I cry. I ache. I'm hurting. But I want to be able to fall in love with a "boring" faithful and trustworthy woman for a change.

[Curiously1]

We have similar childhood related wounds but we have also developed and learnt to cope in different ways which differentiate us from people suffering with BPD and who are especially not in therapy or working on themselves.
BPDs are codependent in a way that they need an attachment in order to survive. Plenty of other cluster Bs (anti-social, narcissistic personality disorder, histrionic) have similar traits on the surface but as to the reason why they behave and depend on others for their needs differ.

It is true that we need to focus more on ourselves and healing and learning from our mistakes, than to put blame on the BPD for all the hurt that was caused or stay stuck in the past and for things we cannot undo. Heck, codependents are known for focusing too much and obsessing over others and how their actions/words affect others and ignoring or compromising their own needs and wants in order to keep the peace or not upset another person. Worrying or fearing about looking bad or about how another person feels keeps us emneshed and stuck longer than we should have been BUT I don't think it is  that identical to that of a typical pwBPDs issues as they are known for putting all of the blame on others or anything external from themselves, taking little to 0 responsibility for the cause of their actions... since they feel justified for doing so and don't believe at all that is a huge part to relationship issues.

As a child, I was trained to put people's needs before mine, or to consider them a lot more, especially when I understood or overall see the bigger picture of a situation more. My feelings/thoughts were not validated as much as say someone who rebelled more or threw a fit or who was being unfair since that person would be able to have it their way more times than none. I suppose codependency came from the combination of feeling invisible which had also allowed me to numb out or disown my true needs/wants really are or have a clear idea of them over the priority of others... .and to give in or put my stuff on hold but the reward for that was being told I was good for understanding others, seen as the bigger person and seeing that everybody  is at least happy, settled me and felt that their happiness was mine too. I lived for and my purpose was to please... .in order to get the love and approval of others and a sense that I existed and was needed to support people I think. That is what it means for my codependency means to me. I don't like saying it ... that I felt that it was my role but still having that need of approval a lot more from someone else in order to feel like I am on the right track or whatever, than myself is what I recognise and have the responsibility now to change.

For me in this past BPD relationship it was about justifying that I was right, that I was good, self-assured, that my reality was valid  that kept me engaged in the relationship and also picking up on her BPD faulty thinking. I thought that I was standing up for myself, and perhaps I did for addressing things but the fact that I stayed after complaining away meant that I allowed/enabled for much worse treatment down the road and wasn't really setting up the best boundaries. It was about self-rightousness as well as believing I could 'fix' things if I could just explain away or do certain things differently. I think as someone with codependent traits I can get caught up with wanting to be a good person and maintaining the feeling that I am doing the right thing which I get addicted to and hand over for other people to decide for me. And if I do something wrong or upset someone even if what I did was right for me would still feed badly and need to apologise refusedly until I could see they had forgiven me. I tried to work on my past BPD relationship at every angle I knew possible at the time so I would not regret it if we did not work out but I just didn't know when to quit when the line has been crossed too far. It was also like a game, like a complex jigsaw puzzle that if I accomplished all of this and handled the tough times... I felt that I would be greatly rewarded with a happier more satisfying relationship. I think this not letting go was also ego-driven, out of stubborness, and encouraged by how I've been operating for most of my life when trying figure out how soothe others from their issues and them needing me. Both my exBPDgf and I had some control issues in different ways to think about it but that is of course because we were both 'dependent' on each other for feeling good about ourselves. I didn't leave because fear I could not find better, that my mission wasn't over... .resolved... and out of obligation based on what she said to me and how I felt she needed me in order to function and the guilt associated if I gave up because I felt I was solely responsible for her care and of course that I love her and felt I really understood her, My blind optimism that we could overcome anything we put our mind and heart into was so high and unrealistic. I know what it felt like to abandoned and rejected and to be misunderstood so it was very difficult for me to leave her, if not anybody else regardless of what they had done and even if situation was not ideal or making me that happy. I just couldn't do it. I would justify why I needed to stay. It felt like I was hurting myself or abandoning a part of myself to ever walk away from her and from someone who 'needed' me. But yeah, for her to easily drop me, shattered all of that. Feeling like she would never leave me, despite our fights and mini-break ups, when it was truly over I could truly see how insecure and broken I really was/became and was so shocked and destroyed by seeing how quickly she could moved on and what that would mean for me (took a toll on my self-worth and brought so many of my insecurities to the surface).

Also same as TheRose, I have done push/pull too without much thought and felt guilty about that. Went to therapy because I knew I was not being myself and reacting too much to my exBPDgf actions, especially when I was trying to prove a point or at the beginning of the relationship, testing if she truly cared since I thought what she did was a bit too much and had a feeling she didn't truly like me for the real me and she was just in lala land . I had insecurities about not being that lovable at the time until I was convinced maybe I was wrong and she genuinely did like me for me. But yeah I think the more into the relationship I was, the more my exBPDgf pulled back so we both had issues with intimacy. Found out I have an ambivalent attachment, read up on it and tried hard not to be triggered by my exBPDgf too based on my own abandonment issues. I think I stayed because the side of me that pushed her away at times also needed my exBPDgf behaving in extreme ways and intenseley because her adoration or that she hated validated me either way a lot more than someone who didn't behave in that manner and who I would think of as 'boring' or who wouldn't understand me either. Her reactions, I understood as her caring about me and our similar issues drew me closer and I felt less ashamed to show the not so good sides of me... So those were my issues. I made some mistakes too. I guess the difference between my exBPDgf and I is that I recognised my own behaviour which wasn't that good and wanted to change. I was/am always into self-improvement.

I think a part of getting our self-esteem back is just time and patience with ourselves while we heal and dettach. We need to start enjoying having less drama in our lives, unhook ourselves from this addiction to our exes as much as possible each day, work on ourselves and to know ourselves better and what we truly like and dislike so we know what we would like better next time we get into a relationship. I think we need to also feel we have permission to take as much care of ourselves with as much effort as we put into our relationships (friends, family, loved ones). So no more wanting to save others as you put it, but truly feeling like that it is ok to focus on ourselves without feeling like we are being selfish we can stop feeling guilty and responsible for another person needs/happiness when they demand so much from us.

[Cleanglass]

I think these 'boring' women aren't necessarily the right fit for you. I mean, if I'm with someone funny then I'll laugh and find it interesting and it feels good. Also, I'm good with people who don't usually find an interest in what I do and vice versa, as long as they might find it interesting when I start telling them about it from my perspective. A stable relationship isn't about finding someone same but finding someone who is heading in the same direction as you (in a productive way of course), with enough differences and enough similarities that there is a chance to do things together and do things apart.

I 100% agree that as a child I was taught to put other people's needs first too. In particular my dad's needs. This transferred to my friends too and eventually my BPD partner.

I feel it's clear to me now that I have a weak and shallow sense of identity. Enough to get me moving in the right direction but not enough for stability in a relationship (clearly!). I think I've been in the wrong head space recently, trying to IMPROVE myself and prove that I'm worthy, where I should just be accepting who I am. The problem I (or we) need to overcome is working out who we are and accepting it, so that we can build on it whilst being true to ourselves, instead of trying to recreate ourselves like Madonna.

[Cleanglass]

On a side note, we do recognise grey area unlike the BPDs. That's because we don't go to one extreme to the other and in those calm moments we are able to rationalise our thoughts. I liken it to when you're in an argument with anyone, you refuse to back down in the moment and you feel very clear that you are right, but later on you notice flaws in your argument and admit to yourself that perhaps you were wrong in part.

They unfortunately can not do this.

[Curiously1]

I think these 'boring' women aren't necessarily the right fit for you. I mean, if I'm with someone funny then I'll laugh and find it interesting and it feels good. Also, I'm good with people who don't usually find an interest in what I do and vice versa, as long as they might find it interesting when I start telling them about it from my perspective. A stable relationship isn't about finding someone same but finding someone who is heading in the same direction as you (in a productive way of course), with enough differences and enough similarities that there is a chance to do things together and do things apart.

I 100% agree that as a child I was taught to put other people's needs first too. In particular my dad's needs. This transferred to my friends too and eventually my BPD partner.

I feel it's clear to me now that I have a weak and shallow sense of identity. Enough to get me moving in the right direction but not enough for stability in a relationship (clearly!). I think I've been in the wrong head space recently, trying to IMPROVE myself and prove that I'm worthy, where I should just be accepting who I am. The problem I (or we) need to overcome is working out who we are and accepting it, so that we can build on it whilst being true to ourselves, instead of trying to recreate ourselves like Madonna.

Yup there are some pretty interesting nons out there for sure It just takes time to meet people we click with and enjoy being with and who we also feel can reciprocate with us

I totally agree with what you are saying. I resonate with feeling like I am heading in the right direction but not having a stronger sense of identity that I would be confident or that keen in trying for another long-term relationship just yet. I would avoid continuing to describe yourself as having a 'weak' or 'shallow' individual identity though. It may focus too much on what you think is currently lacking in yourself when there truly isn't any or could be seen differently. To me just knowing you have self-reflected and overcome certain things already is admirable and enough to know that you have become stronger and have a lot more depth than what you are currently describing and especially compared to those who are not capable of recognising their own faults nor care to. I would describe this period as more of a precious one of self-discovery, awarness and shift into having a healthier sense of identity and mindset (or headspace as you described it!) so that more positive stuff can happen such as self-forgiveneess and the re-parenting of ourselves that we couldn't do before. Having the right headspace we can have incredible power, strength, responsiblity and opportunity to start fully taking care of ourselves, and heal our existing wounds and fully getting to know our true preferences and values that are not just coming from outside sources. This is what is going to make us stronger than ever, and we are already stronger and greater than we know!

When we put others needs in favour of our own and if not most of the time, in exchange we  abandoned/forgotten/neglected/gave up/sacrificed ourselves, our self-esteem dropped tremendously and we do not live life like how an autonomous person would. Having codependent traits, we need more time to explore, rediscover and understand ourselves better by focusing on building our sense of autonomy/individuality... and personal boundaries. Since we did not give ourselves permission to do so  or did not know any better and or even knew how when getting into codependent relationships.

I like the quote 'others learn to treat us the way we treat ourselves.' It is so so important to make sure we are treating ourselves right and not have people step on us.

When we build up our character and what we need to improve on through what we have recognised needs changing, we will have greater respect for ourselves and be able to recognise and more drawn to being in healthier relationships as compared to dramatic/toxic ones. Overcoming ourselves does not mean completely changing every aspect of ourselves. It is having healthy realistic expectations of ourselves. We should embrace our own inherit uniqueness, talents and strengths and personalities... and absolutely should not fall into the trap of recreating ourselves as a means to please others and or other deep seated insecurities such as that we are not enough. We should begin to accept and recognise our current strengths, without the need to achieve 'perfection' That way we can be contented and comfortable with being ourselves and slipping up from time to time.  We can become more caregiving/loving to ourselves

[Lucky Jim]

Hey CG, Sure, marriage to a pwBPD was the crucible that forced me to confront my own codependent tendencies, for which I'm grateful.  No, I don't consider myself a Hero in the breakdown of my marriage.  Unlike my BPDxW, however, I was never physically or verbally abusive.

This may sound unbelievable, but I think BPD knocked the codependency out of me.  I have no desire to be a caretaker again.  Recent relationships have proven that there are kind, considerate people out there with whom its possible to achieve a healthy, non-codependent, dynamic.  Once in a while, I catch myself, but now there's a gap between thought and action when I pause and say to myself, No, I'm not going back to my old codependent ways.

Our BPDs are gone and I would like to stop concentrating on them and learn how to fully commit to myself and [to] the people who are good in my life. I also want to find a new partner that I can just like for who they are and not want to save them.

Right, that's the goal, which I can attest is achievable.  After all the turmoil of BPD, it's easy to fall in love with a healthy person!

LuckyJim

[Cleanglass]

You're very right in that I shouldn't use words as weak. I use them without thinking over the undertones.

I've actually set myself a task, in that displaying compassion to others can create a compassionate personality for myself and therefore create a sense of self-compassion.

I think it's getting dangerously close to my ex reaching out to me as he has begun to contact my friends and talking about drinking and liver problems. I've been reading about self-esteem vs. self-compassion and never realised the differenced between the two. Everything is just clicking in my head now that I know this information.

It seems a matter of time before he'll break my no contact rule, turning up out of blue and I want to be prepared. I think with compassion and self-compassion in mind would it be fair to say an apology for the things I got wrong (i wasn't exactly understand with his BPD traits as I didn't know, or didn't want to know) and forgive him for the things he got wrong (he doesn't know any better either) and just explain that no-contact isn't about hate but I'm learning to rediscover who I am, by myself, so that I can be proud of myself and for myself.

Is that fair or does it sound like I'm setting myself up for hurt?

[Oncebitten]

Wow

I read this post twice all the way through and I see me in all of you.  I knew on some level I was codependent. And I think my ex exposed more of it than I knew.  From a young age it was instilled in me to put the needs of other ahead of mine.  Especially women.  That white knight mentality.  Always believed that I was strong enough to take on my problems and all of those who I cared about.  That was my purpose, why I was here.  And she fed off of that, and so did I.  the more she needed me the better I felt.  And the more I did for her the more I loved her. 

[earlgrey]

Great topic.

The hardest part in all of this (and I relate very closely to all the codependant type traits) is that it is very difficult even to understand that our 'way' is not pure and good and WHY on earth it should get us into difficult relationships.

For ages I was pointing my finger and heaping all the blame on my SO.

Yes I've known push/pull stuff, but just thought that was part of dating, No I don't pick fights, again just the way I am, so the way I am never provoked me to really question myself. The gentle art of the codependant does not get you arrested or into the shrink's couch, it seems it comes to light only by joining forces with 'dark'.

So what is the master plan... .it certainly would not seem to be to put two caring loving co-ds together which is wierd, because in my mind that could only generate peace and love. No we somehow get attracted to 'dark' and get sucked into a situation that our normal coping mechanisms cannot deal with.Then in some kind of emotional tailspin, we awaken and find all the stuff on, and shortcomings of being too nice.

Maybe that is the plan, nature's way of saying you need a little tune up, so try dealing with this!

I have learned a lot, but have I fundamentally changed my perception of me, and of things and other people... .who knows. If/when I head out into the world to find a SO again, will my emotional radar be blipping at the same types, or will they be going undetected, and the healthy shiney blips be calling my name?

EDIT: some of my earlier reading would talk about empaths. Now I believe this is just co-d. in a wrapper. I though I was blessed with a sensitive caring nature which is what (if I've got it correct) empaths seem to be about.

[Pipedreamer25]

This is a really good topic and important for a lot of us to think about it.   I'm reflecting now on my ex and our relationship and can see that he was able to point out my own legitimate issues whilst I was in almost a crazed denial.  I refused to see myself as anything other than good and pure when really I had expectations on him to suit my needs as well.  He knew that the relationship was hurting both of us and we just can't make it work right now and he left.  It still hurts but I'm trying to come to terms with it.

 I've had relationships before and they weren't like this.  This is actually the first time I've ever been dumped! -  I've always been the one ending relationships before.  I know I'm plenty crazy and dramatic - the intense love that is part and parcel of a BPD relationship is the one that I've internalized as being 'true love'.   We were both stubborn, artists in our own way - maybe a bit too similar.  I've never felt I fitted in anywhere ever.  I'm probably a bit vain in that I think myself more interesting than the majority of drones in their boring lives and then came along a man who reinforced that view of myself. 

I know that as a child I was definitely brought up in a very practical, emotionless family and all other needs were priotized before my own.  My younger sister had a temper and my conflict adverse parents did everything they could to accomodate her even to the point of hurting me to placate her.  I still can not reason with her to this day.  When she is mad she is uncontrollable and so stubborn.  So I have learnt not to say anything.  It's easier to just put up with her than have my thoughts heard.  I'm learning that this just isn't healthy.