This is hard. How much can I give up?

[ArleighBurke]

My wife told me tonight that I was "approaching her wrong", that my "push for intimacy/sex" was wrong.

She said  few nights ago I rolled over in the middle of the night and started stroking her side boob. She said she froze. Petrified. I'm not sure if I was awake or asleep - I'm guessing asleep because I can't remember it, and there is no way I would try to have sex in the middle of the night with her. She said after a little while I stopped. She got up and didn't come back to sleep that night. She said that during her freezing, she logically knew that it was HER being petrified, that I wasn't doing anything wrong, but she couldn't stop her body/emotions from reacting the way it did.

She complained that I touched her inappropriatley too often. That we couldn't just cuddle on the couch without me groping her. We discussed this and it appears we have different definitions. I define "groping her inappropriately" as boobs/genitals. She defines "inappropriately" as anywhere that she wouldn't let a stranger touch her! So she said that me gently stoking her lower back is inappropriate and "taking" from her! And anytime I put my hands up her shirt to stroke her back/belly is innapropriate.

She talked about this morning when we laid in bed and she cuddled me. I stroked her back and also stroked her side boob for about a minute. Our bedroom door was open and it's directly across from the family bathroom, and between all the kids rooms and the kitchen - so the kids were constantly walking past. She told me that my touching was just "pushing for sex". I tried to say that with the door open at that time of the morning, and with the kids going past there was NO CHANCE of sex, but she didn't believe me.

Immediately after dinner tonight she laid her head forward and rested it on her arms. I stroked her back (through her clothes) and kissed her upper back/neck. Our 3 kids were at the table. She told me that what I was doing was taking! "Why couldn't I just kiss her forehead/cheek?"

But she said that I *was* allowed to touch her like that after some "connection" - after talking or bonding. I asked her what that entailed but she wasn't able to explain it. She then said that she could imagine us walking through the shops together, holding hands, chatting, laughing, me kissing her on the head. That would create that connection. I asked "didn't we do that tonight?" and she said "yes - but... ." it didn't make a connection for "some reason".

My love language is touch. The thought of not being able to touch her fills me with a huge sadness - thinking about it brings tears to my eyes. Not sex - just touch. I am supposed to be "hands off" until she says it's ok? Even though she can't tell me what can make it OK? How does that work? Already I try to hug and touch her at "safe" times - in public, with the kids around, with clothes on etc to make her feel "safe" but apparently that's not enough.

How do I make this work? She is so broken.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[C.Stein]

Why do you think she is so afraid of physical touch?

She is obviously uncomfortable with certain types of touching when the kids are around.  How about when they aren't?  Is she consistently the same with regard to this?

[Sunfl0wer]

Do you think this is an issue of: feelings = facts

She feels aroused, therefore, assumes your intention was to prepare her for sex?

What has changed? 
Are you being more physically affectionate?
Or is she suddenly responding different?

(I'm assuming with the kids and all, you guys aren't in a new relationship just discovering one another.  Please pardon the ignorance to your story.)

[jrharvey]

Im wondering if she was touched inappropriately as a child and touch brings back all those bad memories. None of what you did is wrong. My GF WANTS me to do all that stuff and if I do not she thinks its weird and reacts negatively. That's all her feeling but there has to be a reason she feels that way.

[Wrongturn1]

To me this sounds a lot like moving goalposts/catch 22 that is typical of my uBPDw's behavior.  If I kiss my wife or touch her in a sexual way, she dysregulates and claims that all I want from her is sex; if I decrease the kissing and refrain from sexual touching, she claims that there is no feeling between us and that our relationship is too platonic. 

It might be that your wife is using the touching issue to offload her negative emotions onto you and that there is literally nothing you can do that would be the right thing (because you can't remove the negative emotions she is dealing with internally - that's her stuff).

[RDMercer55]

To me this sounds a lot like moving goalposts/catch 22 that is typical of my uBPDw's behavior.  If I kiss my wife or touch her in a sexual way, she dysregulates and claims that all I want from her is sex; if I decrease the kissing and refrain from sexual touching, she claims that there is no feeling between us and that our relationship is too platonic. 

It might be that your wife is using the touching issue to offload her negative emotions onto you and that there is literally nothing you can do that would be the right thing (because you can't remove the negative emotions she is dealing with internally - that's her stuff).

THIS RIGHT HERE... .Again... .man I am so glad I found these boards... .Thank all for your responses... .It really helps to process the dynamics taking place in the relationship.

[Grey Kitty]

My love language is touch. The thought of not being able to touch her fills me with a huge sadness - thinking about it brings tears to my eyes. Not sex - just touch. I am supposed to be "hands off" until she says it's ok? Even though she can't tell me what can make it OK?

    I know that feeling of missing touch all too well. But what to do... .

1. The obvious--Her body is hers, and if she asks you not to touch, honor that request.

2. Remember that the way she pushes you away and rejects other forms of touch is more about her and her fears, in that instant... .and when her mood changes, all that can fall away as if it never existed, which still is crazy-making.

Question: Was there a time in your r/s where she was eager for touch? Or sex? Is this a full reversal or just shifting a bit farther down that path?

[Conundrum]

Hi, it seems from your perspective that "touching" (in a non-overtly sexual manner) is soothing and builds feelings of intimacy that you desire. Those are perfectly natural wants and/or needs.

However, her wants and/or needs may be different. That's ok too--yet it doesn't necessarily have to lead to the below doomsday sentiment that you expressed: 

"My love language is touch. The thought of not being able to touch her fills me with a huge sadness - thinking about it brings tears to my eyes. Not sex - just touch. I am supposed to be "hands off" until she says it's ok? Even though she can't tell me what can make it OK? How does that work? Already I try to hug and touch her at "safe" times - in public, with the kids around, with clothes on etc to make her feel "safe" but apparently that's not enough."

I'll gently suggest that what you're articulating isn't a solution oriented approach--however, it more than likely is symbolic of an ongoing paradigm.

Differentiation between a couple's wants and needs is fine. Synthesizing those disparate elements into something new, workable, pleasurable and fulfilling for both individuals is an essential relationship building skill (which I imagine you're obviously aware of).

So I would advise, not losing hope--resigning yourself to a touch starved life. Because, I actually see a number of positives in your portrayal.

First, she's not clamming up, going incommunicado, and dark. Whether you agree with her, or not--she still engaging with you on the subject.

Second, she's not expressly rejecting touch and intimacy. Though she is informing you that in it's current mode she links it to your desire for sex, and that without a (perceived by her) connection it doesn't necessarily feel intimate or provides her w a sense of communion. If you don't let that upset you personally, it actually is a good deal of information to work with.

Consequently, a solution oriented approach will lead towards a win/win for you both. Polarizing this issue will just add to further divides.

What I take away from her expression is that she wants to feel a certain type of connection--prior to direct touch. That isn't entirely unreasonable--is it. Sometimes, we may get too wedded to our standard approach concerning having our wants/needs met--though  when with a pwBPD--it's almost mandatory to think outside of Box #1,#2, or #3.
                   
So here's a suggestion--though obviously not gospel. Lay the foundation for intimacy/touching by making her comfortable in new ways. Maybe try something like the "intimate whisper" instead of touching. Approach her, lean in gently and whisper something validating meant only for her, that isn't tied into sexuality, her physical appearance or your desire to touch her. It can be anything--from something abstract though intimate, such as, "I'm so glad that we had children together. I would not have wanted that w anyone but you." Or, it can be tied into something pragmatic--a positive that occurred that day, such as, "I saw how much effort you put into so and so... .you did a great job, I see how much you care etc.," or, something just silly and fun that relates to the family, work, life, whatever.

By attempting something such as that--you may learn that your want/need for 'touching" can be fulfilled using a broader palette. What's nice is that, if she becomes comfortable with alternative approaches you can perhaps gently add a little touch during the verbal expression--and see if it grows from there.

Additionally, from your description--the get in get out approach (not talking about sex  ) to touching may assist. Don't linger too long with the touching---and over do it. Perhaps modify your want/need a bit (at least for now). Short and sweet. When waking up in the morning, if you feel the need to physically connect--a brief expression--and then leave it at that. Touch less than she expects. Don't exceed her limits. Are you giving her a chance to want more? You're probably saying to yourself, "she'll never want more." Though, how will you ever know if you expect more than she is comfortable with. She is purposely using the word "taking" for a particular reason. That is how she feels, whether accurate or not. Change taking into something that feels collaborative to her. Synthesize an out-of-the-box solution.

Accentuate the positives. I see quite a few in your description that don't necessarily equate to being touch starved for ever. Sounds more like a work in progress, as all long-term unions are. I wish you well.

[ArleighBurke]

Thankyou all. I was quite emotional last night so I didn't provide the necessary back story.

• She has childhood abuse issues.
• We're been married 15yrs
• This issue has been building for years. Me trying to give affection in public places and when the kids are around is in response to her repeatedly telling me that when I am affectionate in private, she assumes I want sex and is always uncomfortable.
• If I am not touching her, I feel distant. But just my hand on her leg, or back, or holding hands is all I need to feel connected. But it seems these push her away!
• I respect her body is hers and want her to feel comfortable/safe
• I am quite open to "making the connection with her first" - if only i knew how! I feel like I've tried everything - she says general conversation isn't close, but me talking about anything intimate always ends in disaster, she doesn't want to do any activities with me, I can't touch/massage, often I'll do/say something nice and be told it doesn't count because she's "not in the frame of mind to receive it". Obviously I get it right *sometimes* but I'm getting the impression is has about 5% to do with me, and 95% to do with her
• And yes it's a catch 22. She wants affection, but only when she wants affection. But she won't tell me when she wants it, and if I give her affection when she doesn't want it then I push her away, but if I don't give her affection when she does want it then I'm distant and she feels pushed away anyway. I've been through this so many times to the point that if she comes and cuddles me in bed - i have NO IDEA what to do - because it depends what mood she's in. If I stroke her back (which to me is loving not sexual) or kiss her head/neck she'll take that as me pushing for sex. If I just keep my hands on her shoulder and chat - she'll get pissy because "she's putting in effort and I'm rejecting her". Asking her what mood she's in doesn't work. I've got no idea.

But yes - positives - she still "knows" that I want to be physically affectionate and she still comes to me sometimes - but even then it feels like when she does, and she gets that yucky memory inside from her past, she then blames ME for the situation not being right.

All standard, predictable BPD behaviour. But can I live with it? We all "jump through hoops" for our partners in many forms - compromise and adaptability are required for a partnership. But when does it just become too much? When is the reward not worth the effort... .?

[Grey Kitty]

Wow, that is heartbreaking. Even without the BPD thrown in there, you and your wife seem to be building a fundamental incompatibility that could destroy your relationship. And in this case, it seems like the kind where it isn't that you or her is "wrong" just that perhaps you are wrong for each other.

And dealing with the childhood abuse to get over such things is a really long hard process. (Even if you don't have BPD!) I don't think you should count on much if any improvement. If she doesn't get therapy, the chances seem slimmer. I hate to be all doom and gloom, but I'm not seeing a lot of upside here.

So what CAN you do about this without leaving your marriage?

Getting touch with her to feel connected with her is going to be hard and scarce. And you are already doing about the best you can. And I suspect you are right--the problem is 95% her and 5% you. You aren't going to make much of a dent in this. General best practices for a BPD r/s may well make the most difference--not invalidating her, enforcing boundaries consistently, providing lots of validation, and using the best communication tools when you need them. Even that is a long game, and isn't likely to have a revolutionary result.

Can you get your need for touch from other sources? Your children? Pets? Other friends or family? I don't mean sex, I just mean being physically touched.

If so, do how does your wife deal with it? Does she freak out about that and get jealous?

[C.Stein]

This issue has been building for years. Me trying to give affection in public places and when the kids are around is in response to her repeatedly telling me that when I am affectionate in private, she assumes I want sex and is always uncomfortable.

Her assumption may be wrong, or not?  Perhaps it is the way you are touching her that causes her to feel this way?  Can you see how she might consider the way you touch her at times is more sexual than affectionate?  This isn't about your intent here, it is about how she sees it.

If I am not touching her, I feel distant. But just my hand on her leg, or back, or holding hands is all I need to feel connected. But it seems these push her away!

Why do you feel distant?  Why do you need to touch her to feel close to her?  This is something you should try to understand, what is really driving this need.  The reason being, the need to touch her may be being perceived by her as you feeling like you have the right to touch her whenever and wherever you want ... .i.e. ownership.  I'm not suggesting here that is how you feel, but it might be how she perceives it.  She may also see it as a violation of her personal space.  She may not be able to articulate this, she just feels it.  

I respect her body is hers and want her to feel comfortable/safe

This is good, but it seems you are missing her cues and your need to touch her is at times superseding her need for personal space.  Would you say that is a fair assessment?

She wants affection, but only when she wants affection. But she won't tell me when she wants it, and if I give her affection when she doesn't want it then I push her away, but if I don't give her affection when she does want it then I'm distant and she feels pushed away anyway.

As I mentioned above, this comes down to understanding her and being able to read her.  You might think after 15 years you would know her inside and out, but you might be surprised at how much you have missed.  Try to become more sensitive to her energy and the physical/verbal cues.  

You know you will have to make more compromises here, that is the sad reality of relationships with borderlines.

As Conundrum pointed out, there are many ways to express affection and love, touch is only one of them.  Explore different ways you can do this without violating her space.  
  

[ArleighBurke]

So we spoke more about the topic ("You are always pushing for sex" on Friday night. And it turns out she defines "pushing for sex" as anything "1st base or more"! So if I am trying to kiss her (lips/neck/back) then I am "pushing for sex". (Does this sound like all-or-nothing thinking?)

We talked for a while - and it felt like a good conversation. I tried to keep coming back to us having a "difference in standards/definitions". So she said me putting my hands up her back to rub her skin was "too intimate too fast", and I empathised. I tried to point out that our "base level" of "connection/intamacy" was just different - that *I* would think that after being married for 15yrs that I would have the OK to touch her back anytime (not her boobs/genitals, but her back surely) - but obviously she feels differently - and that was OK.

The next morning just before we woke up she layed on my chest. Then she rolled over - so I spooned her. She took my hand and placed it on her boob (as an intimate cuddle). We went to the shops that day, and I often walk behind her. I had my hands on her hips, and she pulled them around to cuddle her instead. She was quite obviously trying to "let/make me" be affectionate. When I asked her about it she said "it's OK if SHE is in control". I tried to tell her that she is always in control - because she can say "no" - except I know that she can't say no (because of her history).

it seems you are missing her cues and your need to touch her is at times superseding her need for personal space.

She said that we could have sex everynight - if I just made sure I connected with her first and went slow. I told her I was frustrated, because I *do* try to connect with her, but it seems that the connection process is different every time, and highly dependent on her mood. I also said I thought I did go slow, I *did* try to read her, but perhaps I was reading her signals wrong. Especially since she will NOT say no to me. I don't think I'm a dumb male - I think I am quite good at picking up on cues - but I can't read her. There are many times she will say to me "I'm about to have a meltdown - I'm so stressed/on edge" - and I have NO idea - there is NOTHING I can pick that would indicate that.

the need to touch her may be being perceived by her as ... .ownership.

She raised this possibly as well - that *I* want to feel ownership over her. I said no - I would see if I wanted to touch her boobs/genitals then this would be control/ownership. But I like placing my hand on her back when we walk, or her thigh when we sit. That's affection. I *do* prefer to touch her skin where possible (I find it more intimate/close/loving). I'm certain that it's not about ownership - it is my love language. I'm not sure I can analyse that any further. (When SHE puts her hand on my thigh when we sit down it sends electricity up my whole body - definitely a love language). She also said "Your desire to touch me doesn't make sense".

I GET she has a history of abuse that will affect her forever
I GET that her history means I need to go slow, and accept that some things are not OK
I GET that her body is always hers, and she has absolute say
But I also get frustrated that even when I do everything the ways she says, listening to everythings she wants, she STILL assumes that because she doesn't feel comfortable it must be something *I'M* doing wrong!

I DO understand she has BPD... .

[Sunfl0wer]

- because she can say "no" - except I know that she can't say no (because of her history).

Maybe see if an agreed upon non verbal no would be useful?
Like tugging your ear = No
Or squeezing your pointer finger = No
Or a sustained pinch anywhere = No
When she otherwise does not feel comfy speaking up for herself.

[ArleighBurke]

Good advice. Many years ago I tried to have her "practice" saying no. I told her that if she could practice saying no when she DID feel safe, perhaps that would make it easier later to say no when she didn't feel safe. She didn't want to have aything to do with it - didn't even want to try.

But I may raise it with her again.

[Sunfl0wer]

Good advice. Many years ago I tried to have her "practice" saying no. I told her that if she could practice saying no when she DID feel safe, perhaps that would make it easier later to say no when she didn't feel safe. She didn't want to have aything to do with it - didn't even want to try.

But I may raise it with her again.

Idk, sounds like you are not going to accomplish being able to read her mind, and even if you learn to read her better, she can still hold you responsible for her feeling like she didn't want it... .but you pursuing.

Makes sense to me to focus on giving her a way to "control" something about the situation in a way that respects you both.

However, maybe she is really opposed to being responsible for her own sexuality. (Vs your behavior of any kind being the actual issue, hence goal posts can move forever) Which, I am not sure what you can do about that, until she feels intrinsically like owning her sexuality is a beneficial thing for her.

[C.Stein]

She raised this possibly as well - that *I* want to feel ownership over her. I said no - I would see if I wanted to touch her boobs/genitals then this would be control/ownership. But I like placing my hand on her back when we walk, or her thigh when we sit. That's affection. I *do* prefer to touch her skin where possible (I find it more intimate/close/loving). I'm certain that it's not about ownership - it is my love language. I'm not sure I can analyse that any further. (When SHE puts her hand on my thigh when we sit down it sends electricity up my whole body - definitely a love language). She also said "Your desire to touch me doesn't make sense".

This isn't about you or how you see it, it is about her, how she sees it and what she is comfortable with.  You need to compromise here and I think you did a good job of it for the couple of instances you told us about.  You went as far as she was comfortable with and let her initiate more intimate contact.  This allows her to be in control but more importantly it shows her you respect her.

[Grey Kitty]

But I also get frustrated that even when I do everything the ways she says, listening to everythings she wants, she STILL assumes that because she doesn't feel comfortable it must be something *I'M* doing wrong!

Yeah, that really sucks. But it is how the disorder goes. If you can actually believe that her being uncomfortable and blaming you isn't 100% your fault, it is easier to not take it personally. I wish I had something more "encouraging" to say about it than reminding you that it is toxic to you to take all she says on the matter at face value... .


Well if you can't read her consistently, you can't, and that seems to be the case. Might be you. Might be her. Might be both. Whatever, the communication is failing, and that's certain. I'm not thinking that you are the bigger or more likely problem... .but I'm not in a position to address her side of it at all, so here's what I'm thinking for you that *might* help.

After a long marriage, I'm surprised about that. I was pretty good at reading my wife... .but there were times... .when I was frankly terrified to say or do anything, and perhaps at the time I thought I couldn't read her. Later when I'd been here and learned a bit more about BPD, I read those times as "Nothing I do will be right, including doing nothing. I will be blamed and attacked. I either have to remove myself, or accept the abuse that is coming"

Do you think you really can't read her, or that reading her doesn't give you any option that "works"?

I'm also wondering... .has she gotten upset with you for not being attracted to her, when she is interested instead of afraid? If so, that makes the option of holding yourself back not "safe" for you either. (Never mind that you WANT the connection for now.)


Hmmm... .she often gets upset with your non-verbal approaches to physical intimacy. What about getting verbal consent more often and at more stages? "May I kiss you?" ... ."May I kiss your neck?" ... ."May I caress your arm?" ... .etc.

You can thank her for her response, and anything which isn't obviously eager/clear consent will give you a chance to graciously decline.

Thinking about it, that could potentially become fun and erotic, if you get a series of "yes" answers,  as well as making her feel safe.

[ArleighBurke]

I think I can read her - but I need something to read first - and getting that first read makes things get out of hand too quickly. What I mean is - the only way to see what mood she's in is to take a single step toward her - make a SMALL move. For a non, if they were not interested, you'd know, you'd step back and there would be no problem. But for her, if she is not interested, then she's already immediately triggered and has gone 100% to feeling violated.

I am ok with being "rejected" - and do believe that I am doing the right thing (respecting her and not violating her). I really do believe that she is projecting her mood/discomfort onto me. It's also funny/sad, because she WANTS to be able to say yes (to please me or be a good wife or whatever). So if she's not in the right mood, I'm the bad guy if I keep going, and the bad guy if I stop trying! What she WANTS is me to do <something> to enable her to out of her bad mood into a good mood.

And yes - i have "rejected" her at times because I didn't know that her rubbing her foot on mine was a pick up move. She's even cuddled me in bed a few times and been annoyed that I havn't "picked up" on her desires - but then I've also been told off just as many times because "why can't I just cuddle you without you thinking I want sex"! Classic lose-lose!

I've spend the last few years being more physical with her and NOT having it lead to sex. To allow her to feel "safe" just kissing even if it gets "heavy". I often choose locations/times to kiss passionately where it CAN'T led to sex, but it doesn't seem to have made any difference to her.

I think mentally/emotionally I'm OK with the situation - we seem to make it work enough. It's just sometimes annoying when she blames ME for things not being better even though I feel like I'm the one trying everything.

I will try the talk/ask more.

[Kelli Cornett]

Maybe I'm being too simplistic here, but since hallmarks of BPD are control, manipulation, drastically and randomly changing feelings and emotions, a heads I win-tails you lose relationship dynamic, unhealthy relationship with sex, and using sex and flirtations within and outside of intimate relationships, isn't it a possibility that trying to untangle all of this is just futile?

Isn't it likely (or at least a good possibility) that without working out her abuse and BPD issues in T, that these issues with touching, intimacy, sex, signals, etc., will be ongoing no matter how much her partner does or how much he works to alleviate them?

[ArleighBurke]

I agree!

My post is more just about venting frustration now. 95% of the time I'm OK - 5% I wish it could be different... .

[Kelli Cornett]

I agree!

My post is more just about venting frustration now. 95% of the time I'm OK - 5% I wish it could be different... .

LOL... .unfortunately, I know the feeling as well.
I also know the feeling of wishing it could be different.
Here's hoping it really can be different, and it's not just wishing.

[Grey Kitty]

My post is more just about venting frustration now. 95% of the time I'm OK - 5% I wish it could be different... .

Your r/s is going to have way less physical comfort, touch, and intimacy than you want. Perhaps it will improve slowly and probably slightly, but radical acceptance of this is what you need to stay in your marriage.

Oh yeah, and occasional venting 

One last productive idea/reminder for you about these recurring situations:

She feels uncomfortable/scared about being pressured toward touch or sex... .or
... .her advances toward touch or sex don't get reception she expected and she feels rejected/hurt.

Either way, her way of coping with those feelings is to blame you for the feelings.

Don't pick up the blame. Don't JADE. Don't just call her on it. Use the tools you've learned. I'd pick between these choices:

• Disengage from this topic, and these feelings, likely disengaging from her for a while--boundary enforcement, like this was the start of a circular argument, which it could become!
• Validate her real and valid feelings underneath this. Not the invalid part of blaming you. She just did or said something which expressed some fear, anger, hurt, etc.

Successful validation requires you to be grounded, centered... .not taking her attack personally. If you aren't feeling it, don't try. Validation is also nearly impossible if she is too upset to be receptive. Be prepared to have the validation not have any immediate results and then fall back to disengaging.