Breaking the cycle - extinction burst

[icky]

.

. the dynamic barely makes sense to me. if someone is in massive pain and they "reach out" asking you to help soothe them - that makes sense to me. but the "you're doing everything wrong, you're terrible at soothing pain, you're the worst partner ever" thing - i just don't "get" that dynamic. why - if you are in pain - would you want to add more pain to it? is it about wanting to stay in the victim role?

. Black and white nature means someone always has to be responsible. A pwBPD struggles to take responsibility for things that are bad in their life. There is too much it overloads. As a result they project the blame onto someone else. As you are the one most likely to catch it they repeatedly pass it to you. Yes it is effectively biting the hand that feeds them, but their lack of "connectivity", means they dont accept that consequence, and if there is one,then thats not their fault either.

. huh.  . thank you for trying to explain it to me : ). it still doesn't quite make sense to me. even the traumatised rescue/ stray dogs i work with know that sometimes stuff just happens without anyone doing anything (eg it rains) or that sometimes stuff happens inadvertently/ you didn't mean it (accidentally stepping on their paw but immediately making a big "awwww sorry!" fuss and theatrically checking their paw is okay and making a game out of the feeling of relief that no-one tried to hurt them on purpose). i guess most of the time, my partner knows that too. i guess he only gets into that weird intense-inner-pain-and-i-don't-wanna-be-soothed pattern occasionally? i have spoken to him about these episodes a few days later, once he's calmed down. i've told him that what he says and how he behaves during those episodes makes me feel like he HATES me. he's looked at me with an expression of genuine shock and puzzlement asking why on earth i would think that? and said that during those episodes, the only thing he hates is himself. i believe him, but it's hard to remember that while he behaves in a way that seems incredibly convincingly "hateful" during those episodes. sigh. just as C&F has been saying, it's like a spiral of pain... not only is the BPD person in the intense intial pain of what's hurting them. but every attempt to soothe them, which fails, adds another level of pain (and there can be 10 or 20 of these layers added). plus, if the non-BPD partner looses their patience and yells or says unhelpful stuff, there's the added pain of that stuff happening too. i wonder what makes them "snap out of it" eventually? eventually they do become functional again and can even apologise for having behaved poorly, so there is some self-awareness about this particular pattern. i guess the word "overload" is key here. this is a pattern they themselves can no longer control. they are in overload and their emotion is going to spiral to its extreme, before it can dissipate. (is this what an extinction burst is? is there a link in the resource section to explain extinction bursts and how to deal with them? thanks!).

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Grey Kitty]

I put a wineglass in the wrong spot in the cupboard.  It fell and shattered.  He went off in a rage like I haven't heard in a while.  The call only lasted a few minutes but I feel like I was kicked in the gut.   I made a mistake - I put the glass in the wrong spot.  I offered to come over and wash the floor - help him clean up but that only agitated him more.  He was horrible.

Figuring out what you are responsible for will give you a lot more peace. Start with the assumption that his words about this are completely wrong, and not even worth listening to for that reason.

You did make a mistake, putting a wine glass in the wrong place. That is a small lapse in judgement, or perhaps even ignorance, if you didn't remember where it was supposed to go.

"It fell and shattered." I'm assuming you mean that he bumped it or knocked it off, and then it fell. If it had happened immediately when you put it away, he wouldn't have had to call you to tell you. So he did something clumsy, even if it wasn't where he expected to find the glass.

He probably gets just as much blame as you do... .but it still isn't a big thing. In a healthy household, a wineglass breaking is time to sweep it up, and avoid walking barefoot in the kitchen for a couple days, perhaps swearing for a minute while cleaning it, and then the problem is done and mostly forgotten.

What happened next? He raged at you. In other words, verbal abuse. That's not ok to do to anybody, even you! This is totally inappropriate, and totally out of line. And a 10X bigger problem than a broken wineglass.

Besides... .like waverider said, it never was about the wineglass anyways. He would have found a different reason excuse to lash out at you if that hadn't happened.

And your offer to go clean up was taking responsibility that wasn't yours, and didn't help anything.

Looking back at this, I'm sure you wish you hadn't put the wineglass in the wrong place. I hope you see how that ultimately didn't really matter. And ultimately, you cannot prevent these things--because he will manufacture them if he needs them.

Try to let him have these feelings--even if they are being furious at you for no good reason. Please remove yourself from them, so you don't experience the raging abuse, or even the more calmly spoken emotional abuse.

And please remember that they are his feelings, and you have no power to make them either show up or go away. When you think you are responsible for them is when you get yanked deeper into all kinds of crazy-making messes with him!

[coworkerfriend]

Yesterday, I was proactive in attempting to remove myself from being around him during his dysregulation.   My whereabouts are very predictable - he knows where to find me.  His behavior is also predictable.  With that, I decided to leave the office at 5:30 - my usual time isn't before 7:30.  As I was pulling out of the parking lot, I thought I saw his car pulling in.  For a minute, I thought about turning around but I decided to just head home as I had planned.  He started to call me around 7:30 - I didn't answer the call.  Around 8, he showed up at my house.  He was very upset that I went home without checking on him.  I said that he made it clear he did not want to see me and I wanted to give him some time to himself. He said it is obvious that I don't care about him and he has to find someone who will.  I said I do care but I do not want to fight with him.  He said he is done fighting - this relationship is making him miserable and he needs to make some changes.  He left pretty abruptly after that.  He called an hour later - said he is sick and miserable and he is going to talk to his therapist about getting checked into a facility to help him.  I said I am very sorry that he is feeling so bad - I want him to get the help he needs.  The conversation was pretty much a repeat of all others - he called me an enabler - said that i am bad for him - he is deeply unhappy and he can't live like this anymore.  He is alone in this world and he needs to move on in his life.  Honestly, the rest of the conversation was the same.  I did try to validate.  I listened to him.  He said he is not coming to work for the rest of the week.  I just said do what you need to do.  I was tired and I wanted the conversation to end.

The wineglass was just a means for him to lash out.  I know that.  I am trying very hard to not fall into my bad habit of trying to fix it - sooth things for him.  He is right.  I am an enabler. 

Hmmm - I have had the exact same conversation countless times - after he calms down, we talk about what happened and he has little to no recollection of how he lashed out.  My pwBPD makes me feel like he hates me - that I am the source of all his pain and unhappiness.  He has acknowledged he is the problem.  That I am simply collateral damage when he is dysregulated.  We go through periods of relative calm - I have known about BPD for 4 years - we have been together 7 almost 8 years.  He will "snap out" of it just as quickly as he snaps and is dysregulated.  He apologizes every single time.  He said he appreciates my support and acceptance of him more than I will ever know.  With that being said, it does take a toll on me.  Over the years, I have learned more about myself - I work hard at keeping myself together.  Our lives are very intertwined, we own a business together and we are personally involved.  When I learned about BPD, I made a commitment  to stay with him.  To learn as much as I could, to stop making things worse, to work on becoming a stronger person.  My strength is tested often and these past few months have worn me out. 

Thank you waverider and GK, your insight is invaluable.  I do see how ultimately, yesterday had nothing to do with a broken glass.  It is just a symptom of a bigger problem.  That problem is his.   I have to step back and recognize that I can not let myself continually get sucked into the crazy-making messes. 

[Grey Kitty]

This kind of thing happens a lot--he accuses you of hating him, not caring for him, etc. Sometimes when you enforce a boundary. Other times when he's just upset. I think it is one of the core things you aren't dealing with in a healthy way.

He said it is obvious that I don't care about him and he has to find someone who will.  I said I do care but I do not want to fight with him.

He is full of self-hatred, and thinks he's unlovable. (He may not admit it, but I'm sure it is true). He can't accept that you have feelings different than he does. So you must feel the same way about him that he does.

Therefore, if you tell him you do care about him, you are invalidating his feelings.

And you know how well THAT works. He just gets more riled up when he's invalidated, and lashes out harder.

So what options do you have other than arguing with him about what you really feel?

The really hard one is to validate his own feelings. It is pretty horrible to think that somebody close to him doesn't care about him. Both hard for you to say sincerely, and hard for him to hear and believe. Might be possible validate that he is angry or upset.

The not quite so hard one is to exit the conversation immediately, instead of taking the bait. (i.e. get better with boundaries)

And why does he bait you? Well, admitting that he hates himself is really hard to do. It is far easier for him to project that self-hatred onto you. ("You obviously don't care about me" and then since it is outside himself, attack you because you are the 'problem'. Now he doesn't have to deal with his own feelings anymore. IT WORKED! Yes, you just had a toxic fight with him, but the goal of avoiding his own feelings was successful.

It is a really sucky coping mechanism, but it is the best one he's got. And if you let yourself be part of it, it hurts both you and him. Stop playing this toxic game with him. He won't stop as long as you let it "work" for him.

[icky]

so what does BPD self-hatred feel like and where does it come from? i understand having a crap day and feeling useless and having low-self esteem and feeling kinda despondent or depressed and having a sulk... but how does self-hatred work? (my theory on BPD is that as babies/ toddlers, people with BPD were not able to form that first deep bond to a carer (possibly because their carer had a personality disorder themselves and refused to bond with the infant) hence leading to an un-bonded child, who develops into a pwBPD). does this kind of thing lead to self-hate in the pwBPD ? i guess if a carer is refusing to bond with an infant, it's signalling to the infant that the carer a) thinks the infant doesn't exist/ isn't a human being worthy of contact/ bonding  or b) dislikes the infant and chooses to not bond due to the dislike. either is fundamentally threatening to the infant's existance, because in an evolutionary sense only infants with caring carers will survive. not being bonded is literally life-threatening and hence will cause massive, deep stress with life-long scars. is this kind of stuff what is meant by self-hatred? that the pwBPD will carry this unresolved pattern around with them later? that they will continue to reinforce the narrative that they are fundamentally unloveable (by anyone)? i guess in a young child that would cause a) distress/ deep pain but also b) (supressed) rage at the uncaring carer. so it would make sense to flip-flop back and forth between distress/ pain and rage later in life, when these traumatic experiences are re-triggered. would soothing touch be an option at this point? i know that when pain is deep, often words cannot reach the pain anymore. gently being held, or just a gentle back-rub, or squeezing the persons hand can work like magic, where words fail or increase the frustration. (of course, some people do NOT want to be touched when they are in emotional distress - so this would only work if it's someone who responds positively to touch). just as these deep non-bonding wounds were inflicted on infants in the pre-verbal phase, maybe by opting for soothing touch, that's getting closer to the pre-verbal depth of those painful feelings.

[Lockjaw]

This sounds a lot like my GF. She is not capable of seeing her fault in anything in the moment. And she is the master at spinning any situation and making it someone else's fault.

I feel for you, I really do. It's so hard sometimes.

[ArleighBurke]

is this what an extinction burst is? is there a link in the resource section to explain extinction bursts and how to deal with them? thanks!

Extinction Burst: when Nons start changing our behaviours, by enforcing a new boundary, or not rewarding an old habit, the BPD will react. The action they have done for years that got a response every time no longer works - so they will ramp up that action and do it harder and more emotionally, getting stronger each time to TRY to make it work again. After trying for a while and seeing it doesn't work they will give it one last MASSIVE effort - pulling out all the tears, all the emotion, all the blame - until they realise it doesn't work. Then they will stop doing it.  That last effort is their Extinction Burst.

You deal with it like any other - stand your boundary, be strong, be consistent, and wait.

[Meili]

Here's the link to reinforce what AB posted: BPD BEHAVIORS: Extinction Bursts

[coworkerfriend]

Another bad day even though  he did show up for work.  He asked me to review the status of a client - we did and he seemed motivated.  I left his office and got to work on other projects.   He asked me a few questions here and there - no big deal.  We had a normal seeming lunch - maybe a bit quieter than normal but he was making an effort to discuss daily work events. 

He came into my office a few minutes ago and started on having no one to help him with his project - I said I thought he had it under control and he flipped out.  He said that this project has been tormenting him for months and he can't believe I am making him do it.  I said nothing - walked back to my office and he stormed out.  He yelled as he was leaving - don't bother to come home for dinner - that he doesn't care what I do. 

So here I am - again, trying to let the day go.  Trying to stop focusing on what he has said to me this week.   

GK - you are completely correct.  This is one of the core issues that deal with.  I know that I have not been consistent in handling it - I get emotional - there are times I am tired and I just take the bait.  I will not answer 10 calls and then I break and pick up on the 11th. 

During his periods of self-awareness, he readily admits to hating himself.  He feels like he failed at everything he has done in his life and is quick to recognize that I have helped him more than anyone ever has.  He tells me that during his bad times, he hates himself - he never hates me - again, I am nothing more than collateral damage. 

When he is dysregulated - there is no way I can touch him at all - not a simple hand on his back - and he visibly flinches if he thinks I am going to touch him in any way.  In the past, I have tried to rub his back or hug him and he accuses me of patronizing him - that I don't care, I am just trying to pacify him. 

I have to stop participating in this with him.  I feel like it has gotten completely out of control.  He can't seem to reign himself in. He keeps pushing and pushing.  This started in early September and we have been dealing with it weekly.  He tells me he needs time to adjust  his thinking and I really am not sure what that means.  He keeps telling me that he needs stability and my life is too chaotic. The only thing that has changed is my daughter went to college which really has no impact on him at all. 

I have to stay strong and not participate at all - I have to keep my boundary strong that I will not accept his verbal abuse. 

I am going away this weekend - generally, when I go out of town, he does get incredibly stressed prior to my leaving.  I go out of town once every few months.  This time, I did invite him to come.  I knew there was no way he would go - but I did want him to know he was welcome.  I am so looking forward to a few days of distraction and time to myself.   I am hoping to take some time to try to sort myself out.   I know I spend way too much time focusing on his needs.  Blah - I am just sad and tired right now. 

[ArleighBurke]

He said that this project has been tormenting him for months and he can't believe I am making him do it.  I said nothing - walked back to my office

I get why you just walk away, because you want to avoid the arguement, avoid the drama, but walking away would FEEL invalidating to him. He has told you he feels yuck, and he is emotionally immature and can't handle that feeling. He is lashing out because he feels all that yucky feeling. You walking away doesn't allow him to feel heard, and doesn't help him to deal with it.

Are you able to discuss his feelings? "I didn't realise you were struggling and feeling trapped with this project. That must feel horrible. I'm so sorry.". He'll vent some more. Be empathetic again, then ask "What can I do to help you?". This is SET (Sympathy, Empathy, Truth). If he is quite stuck, you need SE SE SET. Would you be able to talk more like this? To empathise with his feelings? When I started it felt like I was letting him "wallow" in his sadness - but suprisingly once they feel heard, the BPD is then often quite willing and able to move forwrards.

I am going away this weekend - generally, when I go out of town, he does get incredibly stressed prior to my leaving.

It's great you can identify this. Have you done anything to "prepare him" for it? Even a simple thing like giving him a small (personal) gift saying "I know you don't like when I go out of town. I don't like it either - I miss you! I want to give you this so that when you look at it you remember me."

[Grey Kitty]

GK - you are completely correct.  This is one of the core issues that deal with.  I know that I have not been consistent in handling it - I get emotional - there are times I am tired and I just take the bait.  I will not answer 10 calls and then I break and pick up on the 11th. 

You get torn down, and you lose your resolve. Try to do things that make it easier on yourself. For example after he's called 2-3 times, turn your phone off for the night, or at least "mute" him so you won't be tempted each time it rings after that.

During his periods of self-awareness, he readily admits to hating himself.  He feels like he failed at everything he has done in his life and is quick to recognize that I have helped him more than anyone ever has.  He tells me that during his bad times, he hates himself - he never hates me - again, I am nothing more than collateral damage. 

I wouldn't call what happens to you to be collateral damage--he *IS* trying to hurt you, attack you, guilt you. He probably doesn't understand exactly why he is hurting you... .but he still is aiming for you, and ultimately knows it. [No point arguing it with him]

But other than that... .yes, he is pretty self-aware (when he's regulated).

One last thought for you... .please take good care of yourself, and please be mindful of your mental state. Not just for you, but for him too.

When you are getting frazzled, triggered, or exhausted, you aren't at your best. You are more likely to forget the tools or use them in a clumsy way. You lose compassion. Pay attention to your own moods.

Validation when you are in a bad state is pretty much a lost cause. Even if you manage to somehow say the right thing, your tone of voice won't be right. These are times when biting your tongue and NOT blurting out that snippy invalidating comment is a real victory on your part. At this time, the best thing you can do for either him or yourself is be ready to enforce a boundary and remove yourself.

I'm remembering times I tried not to run out the door and tried not to slam it and tried to say calmly (instead of shouting) "If I stay any longer, I will do or say something I'll regret later." I was always proud of myself for leaving that way. More so if I did it without a shout or a slam, but at least I was out before I did any more of the circular argument or whatever.

Have a good trip away from him. Be strong about phone calls.