Non's...how are you filling the emotional void in your relationship?

[bobcat2014]

Please no judgments on this one.

I often wonder if I am just excessively needy or emotional. Men are only physical, right? I know that sounds weak, but I am so hungry for emotional connection; the mere absence of it fills my thoughts most of the day. It pushes me to do gap analysis between what my (BPD) relationship really is, and what I feel it should be. There can be no realistic action plan to ever change those major differences. Maybe I expect to much from a romantic perspective, as I still do get my transactional allowance of physical contact once a month. What I wouldn't give to look my uBPDw in the eyes and actually connect. 

How do you deal with emotional void in your BPD relationship?

What NOT to do.

By accident, I became friends with a woman, who was... .yep... .another borderline. Outgoing, smart, bubbly, interesting and "happy". This one was diagnosed and knew about BPD very well (I asked). We were immediately attracted to each other... .and I wrongly loved the attention. In keeping within certain boundaries we texted daily, talked and eventually met briefly. I was so curious about how she functioned like she did and considered she wasn't BPD (wrong). She told me I was her daily distraction from reality. Puzzled, I later learned that her and husband were "open" within the marriage. According to her, it worked for them and he allowed her to have many distractions, if you know what I mean. I don't think she was really happy or what she was telling me was even true. I feel like a pig for sharing that, but talking with her made me feel alive again.

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[Hmcbart]

I have been struggling with this myself.  There is no emotional or even physical support from my wife.  I get an occasional text saying I live you or a quick kiss on the cheek and sometimes lips, but it really feels mechanical.   My therapist told me I needed to put myself in more situations to meet other people and just be able to have friends I can talk to. 

I have had conversations with a friend and his wife about a lot of it.  She lets me vent and sometimes we just talk about anything and everything.  It took a while to open up.  I have gotten so used to watching every word I say for fear it will be misinterpreted and used against me.  If my wife saw the topic of some of our conversations she would go completely sideways.  Having someone to talk to like that without fear is important.  I helps in the short term anyway.  At the end of the day when I'm home with her, it's right back to avoiding conversations out of fear.  It is not a long term solution I know but it helps to make it through the week sometimes. 

[bobcat2014]

Hmbrt,

Thanks for sharing that.

[bobcat2014]

  I helps in the short term anyway.  At the end of the day when I'm home with her, it's right back to avoiding conversations out of fear.  It is not a long term solution I know but it helps to make it through the week sometimes. 

What would be a healthy long term plan?

In some way, the triangulation with another offered a solution in your case and mine... .short term, that is.

[jrharvey]

I am not married but I have a different dynamic. Ive always been very distant in my relationships in the past. I didn't want to get too emotionally close. My GF was no exception. We dated for 8 months before we really got close. It was a difficult transition for me. However I started to notice that she would rage and throw tantrums if I wasn't close enough. Then at the same time completely throw me away and remove all attention or closeness for 24 hours. It was confusing. She says she wants closeness but runs away and pushes me away. I started to feel obligated to become more close out of fear of her raging. The confusing thing was I would start to notice she was no longer close. She stayed quite distant. But as I accepted this comforting distance and mirrored her she would again rage that I was distant and not close. She would rage that I didn't hold her hand, didn't kiss her enough that day, didn't try to have sex with her, didn't look happy that day etc... .while I was simply mirroring her level of closeness. When I was walking on eggshells I just kept trying to show more and more and more attention in hopes to stop the raging but it really didn't help. Life happens and something would cause her to say I am not showing enough affection and rage about it.

Many nights I would think so confused remembering that I kissed her 10 times randomly that night and she only kissed me once but she says I am not being loving enough. Or I would try to have sex with her the past 3 nights and when I fall asleep early this night she flips out on me and says I must be interested in other girls. Its confusing and crazy.

Im saying all this because sometimes I do notice that she shows little attention, validation, affection but demands more than the average from me. Its a weird and confusing thing.

[bobcat2014]

Im saying all this because sometimes I do notice that she shows little attention, validation, affection but demands more than the average from me. Its a weird and confusing thing.

Fellow member of the BPD matrix. Thanks for sharing.

[Grey Kitty]

There is nothing wrong with wanting that kind of emotional connection. Even for a guy. I know I need it. I built up some of the strongest ones I have in the aftermath of my marriage--a time when I really needed support, and also in an earlier low point where my marriage had become quite abusive, when I also needed a lot of support.

I've personally found that it is easier for me to connect to women that way than to men, although I have done both.

I've also found that I can have emotionally intimate friends that don't feel like an emotional affair.

Unfortunately, at those times in my marriage, my wife was very jealous of anybody I was close to, so it was a struggle, and I was often accused of wanting or having an affair (emotional or physical). Having to fight to carve out time and energy for that kind of friendship made it that much harder.

[Lockjaw]

I honestly do not have a good way to fill my emotional void. The most therapeutic thing I do is deer hunt. I am introverted, so I don't make friends easily or well. I am going to get my reloading stuff set up and start loading ammo for my AR15. I can stay busy doing that for a while.

Really I think I am just a psycho chick magnet, since that seems to be who I always end up with. I realize I am not perfect and have my own issues.

But that never keeps me from wishing I could meet the perfect (for me) woman. One who would get me and see me for what I am, not what I do for them. Sadly I do not know if I will ever be the same if this relationship fails, which is sad, if I had half a brain I would tell her to hit the road and never look back.

When she is good, we are good, when she starts with all the opinions and telling me what I need to do, then its not good.

[Hmcbart]

Finding that balance between emotional support and avoiding the physical is difficult. For years I traveled a lot for work.  At the end of the day I would go back to my hotel and teach my self how to write computer code.  I was always afraid if I let myself be open to building even a friendly relationship with a woman I would go to far.  As it turns out, I crave the close emotional support of a woman.  I guess from years of not getting it from my wife.  I did however learn more about writing computer code that I could have ever learned in school, so there is that I guess. 

I also tried the mirroring technique with my wife.  What ever effort she would put into it, I would do the same.  It did nothing but cause more headaches.  That was before I learned about BPD.  Now I understand that she hates herself and how she acts.  So when I mirror her actions and behaviors she just sees me like her. Of course then my actions were used to justify her feelings and anger. 

Now I basically avoid as much interaction with her as possible.  It doesn't make anything better but it keeps me from saying anything that she will use against me. Also avoiding her keeps me from thinking it's possible to receive any emotional or intimate connection.   Hope is the most awesome tool she has to destroy me.  If I begin to hope things will work only to have her quickly push me away again it's devistating to my self esteem.  So I just gave up on any hope that she can ever give me the emotional and intimate support I need. 

[bobcat2014]

Really I think I am just a psycho chick magnet, since that seems to be who I always end up with. I realize I am not perfect and have my own issues.

You and me both, brother... .

[Lockjaw]

I think I could deal better if I could just hit a few homers every once in a while. When every option is a lose lose, its just tough to stay motivated to hang in there.

I told mine not to long ago that dudes are hardwired to conquer, compete and kill stuff (to eat). You can't expect us to stand that and get attacked and be nice and just take it day in and day out. I want to win too. I want to have options that I know are winning options.

Her response is more like, hey, sometimes keeping the train on the tracks is a win. Really, so its broke down out in the middle of no where, it hit a gas tanker truck and blew up and there is now a major forest fire because of the explosion, but hey, the train stayed on the tracks.

 

[Hmcbart]

I thought I saw the explosion while I was walking around in the desert starved of all affection.  Might as well use the fire to stay warm, rescue party is a long way off.   

I see it as I am Charlie Brown, she is Lucy, and the football is the emotional and physical support I need.  She temps me with it and talks me into trying to kick it even though I know she will pull it away after I have sprinted up to go for the kick.  Followed by hearing "you're a block head Charlie Brown".

[Meili]

What exactly are you talking about when you say the "emotional void?"

Are you looking for validation from your SO? Are you looking for empathy? Feelings of being loved, important, and wanted?

[Lockjaw]

What I would say to that is this. I want someone who can honestly admit they are wrong, and apologize for doing something they did that hurt me. I want to be able to say things and it be the right thing, not always wrong. I want to feel like I do more right than I do wrong. I want to be valued. To matter. To be worth more than being able to cut the yard, or fix something.

For a long time, I was baffled by this that I have going on. A therapist friend finally told me to look up BPD. I was like, WOW! This is what the deal is.

I have spent all day apart from mine, she didn't come over tonight, and bring her special needs son to spend the night with my sons. All because she couldn't keep her mouth closed this morning. She had to be insulting and belittle me. All day I was good. Didn't say anything mean or ugly. Didn't talk about past issues, didn't yell, cuss, scream, etc. I stayed focused on the issue, her behavior, and didn't let her use all her skills to distract me. I didn't take ownership of her problem, I didn't let her project it on me. I didn't let her guilt me by saying I was punishing her son. I never took a shot or made a snarky comment.

She put herself ahead of her son, my sons, and me. And has yet to admit she did anything wrong. 15 hours later. She is at her house by herself with her son. Still trying to convince me I need to chase her.

Your average on the street person who meets her or knows her, would never believe what I just told you people. Only you who experience it or a therapist who has treated it know I am not crazy.

So I guess the real question is how do we get our love tank refilled?

[Caroled]

One thing I do wonder is if the reason women are diagnosed with BPD more frequently than men might be because women are often expected (and I'm generalising here) to be able to selflessly dispense the emotional validation others need, whereas when men can't do it because of traits which might qualify as BPD, it's considered more "standard".

Anyway, one thing I've found with my emotional tank is that when it's low, I can fill it from all the resources I have that my husband doesn't - family support, work friends, alone time with a book and a bath, study courses etc. I can then use that energy to maintain my calm and not react when he has a mood swing. Things are always worse when I'M down - and I do suffer from anxiety, especially when my physical resources are low (haven't eaten, haven't slept etc.), which usually brings on a period of depression too - because I'm more reactive.

I think the main thing I'm trying to get across here is that concentrating on ME and what I need, without having any expectations of my husband to provide for those needs if that's not something he can do, is perhaps one way of looking at the problem that helps me. And I try to really appreciate the things he CAN (and does) provide when he's well and not under the kind of stress that trigger his BPD-like behaviour (and I am acutely aware that his "attacks", if that's the right word, are nowhere near as strong or persistent as the ones many people here are dealing with; they were much more intense and longer-lasting when he was younger but have got steadily less so over the years).

[bobcat2014]

Anyway, one thing I've found with my emotional tank is that when it's low, I can fill it from all the resources I have that my husband doesn't - family support, work friends, alone time with a book and a bath, study courses etc.

Years of isolation have blocked most resources like family and friends for me. I agree with the need to find a method to self validate in a positive way, that doesn't involve others. It just gets lonely for me. Others have pointed out that perhaps my wife simply lacks the capacity to validate and support my minimal emotional needs. She has done it in spurts, but never anything close to full time. That would require giving up a piece of herself... .not gonna happen. On the other hand, I am emotionally spent from filling her constant needs. I only want a fraction of what she gets and feel guilty for wanting that.

[Notwendy]

For several years, my H painted me black and ignored me, physically and emotionally. I was so hurt, lonely, and sad, ( and he didn't seem to even notice) that I think I would have been vulnerable to the first person who lent me an empathetic ear but I didn't want to be in that situation. I  had small children and a strong drive to protect their world, and tearing up my marriage would have been harmful to them. I filled my need for connection with counseling. I could have that deep talk with a counselor and keep my relationship safe.

Eventually, with work on co-dependency, that need for what I felt as "connection" has diminished significantly. I wonder if my need to "connect" was not an emotionally healthy way to relate to people. I also know that if someone else had walked into my life during that sad and lonely time- and I believed he would fill that void for me- it would have been dysfunctional. My issue would have matched his, in a similar way they matched my H's.

I am not cold or detached now, but I don't feel that I have to have someone else fill an emotional void. I know that other activities fill a need for connection. I'm a mom, but my kids are not there to fill a void- still I enjoy that relationship. Work helps too. I enjoy working as a team with others. It isn't intimate in the romantic sense, but it still is a connection. Self care- having hobbies and interests is key as well.

[Lockjaw]

I am an introvert, so I don't make friends well. I don't like to impose so I am always isolated unless someone calls me.

My interaction with other people is mainly work, or the hunting club during hunting season. I am sort of in a weird spot, I am nearly half a century old, and have kids that are 10 and 8. So finding a sunday school class that I fit in, or a singles class isn't easy. I don't want to drive 20 miles to go church, and really want a local one so my kids see their peers there.

My sis's husband has stage 4 colon cancer, and my parents live near her, so... .and if i needed or wanted criticism about all my bad choices in life, I can get that from my parents too. All my friends are from where I grew up, its 2 hours a way.

And with my schedule, on the weekends I don't have my kids, I try to get my junk done and relax. Making friends is just not at the top of my list. If I punt the GF and get on a dating site, I get bombed with women that would take any guy. And quite honestly, the whole idea of going through that process just turns my stomach.

So I totally get what the question is.

[bobcat2014]

Eventually, with work on co-dependency, that need for what I felt as "connection" has diminished significantly. 

I am not cold or detached now, but I don't feel that I have to have someone else fill an emotional void.

Cold and detached. I hope I can get back there, as I am currently far from that now.

But Wendy, is this really you? or simply a self imposed tactic to survive within the r/s? (don't answer that) I want to think that two people could truly share and balance out a great life together with all aspects of romance and true intimacy. After 20 years, there are still things about me I could never, ever tell my wife, for fear they would be used against me or used to make me feel defective when she needed to do that. I know now, one of my parents were BPD/NPD and this plays heavily on my r/s. A T is probably the best bet to talk. The problem with that is her tagging along and making the sessions about her.

[Grey Kitty]

Years of isolation have blocked most resources like family and friends for me. I agree with the need to find a method to self validate in a positive way, that doesn't involve others. It just gets lonely for me.

You can learn to take care of yourself and self-validate. That is very important. But it isn't really sufficient. Humans are social animals, and we need connection with others to be healthy.

If you are anything like me, you are isolated because your spouse tried to push people away and isolate you... .and over the years, you let her do it. Time to use boundaries, fight as much as you have to, and get yourself out of that hole. Reconnect with family, if you have family still alive. Reach out to old friends if you still have contact info. Talk to people, make new friends. It took years to get this way. It will probably take years to get back. You may have a lot of battles with your wife to get there. It is worth it.

One way I'd state this boundary is "I have a right to have other people in my life." Believe it, and act based on it.

And yes, sometimes having friends and family means talking to them or doing things with them when your wife isn't there or isn't listening on the phone. Some of this is needed too.

Maybe it is playing basketball, golf, or fishing. Maybe it is a poker game. Maybe it is a hiking club. (I don't know what appeals to you.) Whatever it is, go out and meet people, go out and do things with people. If you don't leave the house, you won't build connection with people.

NOTE: Having friends isn't the same as the sort of emotional affair ":)on't do this" example at the start of this topic! Don't think that freedom or a right to have friends (besides your wife) means freedom to do that!

And yes, this is a BIG change from where you were before. When you start doing this / enforcing a boundary against whatever your wife does to stop, you can expect an extinction burst trying to shut you back down. Be strong, and power through it. I'd recommend posting here about what your wife does to shut down new or rekindled old friendships, and how you can most productively deal with it. That is a great exercise in boundary enforcement, whether you want it or not!

[Hmcbart]

My first therapist after realizing what was really going on with my wife I made the comment that she got upset at me once when we were with people I know from work. She said I wasn't the same person as I am at home and even said I may have multiple personality disorder.  I'm tell my therapist this and he said the person I am with friends is probably the real me. I am not afraid to say certain things and don't have to employ a personal 10 second speech delay out of fear I will upset them. 

The me at home is so busy trying to keep the peace and avoid conflict that I can't be the real me. So when you asked Wendy is that the real you?, for me it isn't.  I guess my wife was correct in her assertion that I have multiple personalities.  She just was wrong in thinking the one she sees is the real one. 

[Meili]

I am an introvert, so I don't make friends well. I don't like to impose so I am always isolated unless someone calls me.

Have you looked at why this is?

[Lockjaw]

Melli I think part of it is from work experience. When I was an operations manager at circuit city, they changed their policy and basically made any and all customer complaint issues an operations "management" problem. So any call that came in that was any sort of a complaint, came to me, or one of my supervisors under me.

It didn't take long for me to get really gun shy of answering a phone. In fact, it grew into hatred of answering a phone. Nothing like the first phone call of the day to ruin the day for you to make you rethink the whole phone thing. So much so that even now, 20 years later, I rarely answer the phone at work, unless I know who the caller is.

Then with the advent of email, I realized that I could send people a message and they could read it when they chose, and vice versa. I grew to like that.

So nowdays, I just don't really call people, and I don't really have a good way to make friends. I don't like crowds of people either. Or loud, lots of commotion. Even going to watch a movie is rough.

But I need to work on it some more, or I will die alone.

[Meili]

Do you feel that it's less of an imposition to contact someone via email to invite them to do something?

I really understand the thing about movies, crowds, and loud noises. For me, it came from my FOO and major insecurities that they created. I would become overly anxious and hypervigilant. I was constantly afraid of rejection. And, the loud noises were linked to my father yelling and what would come after he started yelling.

[Notwendy]

Bobcat- to be honest- is this really me or survival? It did start out as survival- a stay at home mom with small kids - seemed like the best option for many reasons. I also considered the range of the issues- and they were isolated to between us, not the kids. My H is good to the kids.  Also, there was hope for change. Somehow my H decided to work at things and try to change. I believe this is due to the fact that the dysfunction was more at the range of traits, in comparison to my fully symptomatic BPD mom. Still, it puzzled me that although we - as a couple- seemed to have a better situation than my parents had, similar dysfunction was showing up in my marriage.

Because of the way I was raised, I was determined to do better for my kids and in the moment, it was to keep stability for the kids. We were able to arrange finances so I could be at home to raise them. Being a good mom was my main goal. Do I like companionship and romance? Yes, like anyone else, but I love my kids more.

But the lack of affection or intimacy led to experiencing what it was like to hit emotional bottom. I think this is what prompted my H to look at the situation. It wasn't drama or intended. I didn't focus on him because I didn't have the emotional energy to. I wasn't worried about the relationship, I didn't give a darn really. That began my own journey into therapy. The kids got older and I went back to work.

I can see that my H is committed to the marriage. I am too, and with T, we were able to change some of the dysfunctional patterns. I had to choose to accept who he is and his own personal boundaries. I also had to take a close look at my contribution to the drama, my reactivity, co-dependency. I really did have to learn new ways to interact. I had to look at what I perceived as being close- was it the drama my parents modeled for me? I stopped feeling any attraction to that. Without the drama, I think the relationship is evolving into something calmer and more stable, and there is room for affection in that.

I think that each of us has to come to our own decisions as they involve different circumstances- our issues, their issues, severity, personal danger or not, children's welfare, finances, willingness or potential to change. It's complicated isn't it?  I think my choices reflect my values- so they are "me".

[Lockjaw]

Do you feel that it's less of an imposition to contact someone via email to invite them to do something?

I really understand the thing about movies, crowds, and loud noises. For me, it came from my FOO and major insecurities that they created. I would become overly anxious and hypervigilant. I was constantly afraid of rejection. And, the loud noises were linked to my father yelling and what would come after he started yelling.

Yes but also they can read the email when its convenient for them.

My dad said I never liked loud noises. I have anxiety, and have had panic attacks before. I was at a church conference earlier this year, and the music was so loud, and the bass was pounding to the point it was distressing for me. The people I work with who know me and know I have issues that way could see I was distressed. I felt like I was having a panic attack.

I have issues with my dad too, really both mom and dad. My dad hit me when I was young, he just lost his composure and hit me way to hard. In today's world the school would have called CPS on him. I shut down. My mom tried to get me to tell her what happened, but I wouldn't. He was a bully and critical and he never apologized for that. My mom never nurtured me through it. Never said she would protect me. I never knew if I was safe again. I believe that led to me being co-dependent.

I did make me very conflict averse. All I remember is being hit. Nothing after until the next day, walking home from bus stop with my sis. I remember looking in the mirror and seeing a hand print on my face, but when that was, I have no idea. I remember my mom talking to me, but that is it. I no longer felt safe.

So I let a lot of stuff go, until I get to the point I don't care what the consequence is, and then I say. I know its not the healthy way to do things, and I have gotten better about it, but my preference is unless its a big issue, just to let it go.

As you might imagine, having a BP in my life taps into all that. The inability for her to reason or use logic or see she did something wrong just reminds me of my childhood. And you can't tell them private damaging stuff. She has used the thing with me dad against me. Uses the therapy I get against me. Doesn't want me to mention her to a therapist unless I get her permission.

My dad ridiculed me as a child. I go through high school getting the same from my peers. And I seem to always manage to find a woman who can be the same. Never wrong.

So trusting is just hard.

[Notwendy]

Lockjaw- your insight into your childhood is a key. It helped to realize that this was what was involved in the seemingly endless conflicts in my marriage.

I am very sensitive to loud noises and someone yelling at me is very scary. If BPD mom got upset then my dad would punish us. We kids learned that to be loved in our home we had to be compliant and perfectly behaved. Breaches of that were not tolerated. So, I took that into my marriage.

I didn't know it at the time, but my H was replaying his childhood with critical, verbally abusive father- with me taking on the role of his dad. Although my FOO was obviously dysfunctional, my H's looked pretty good and he didn't think it was unusual.

The victim triangle worked well here. I could say or do something that my H would interpret as criticism. Feeling attacked, he would "fight back" and be verbally abusive to me. Since I didn't know what he was thinking, or that he had misinterpreted what I said/did- these things would come out of the blue. I would take it personally and either become more compliant to try to fix things, or JADE, or cry. His anger out of the blue recreated my childhood fears. We seemed stuck in that pattern.

While each of us is responsible for dealing with our own emotional triggers, and when we are triggered, we can look at how we respond to other people. I can tell when I am feeling triggered, but also when I have triggered my H ( or my mom) and not take the reaction personally or react back.

I need to see that my H is not my FOO, and I am not his. Knowing that we tend to attract people who match our issues emotionally in some way can not only motivate us to change ourselves but also change the way we interpret attraction. We make a first impression- is there chemistry? But it takes a lot longer to get to know someone well. So back to those dating sites- I don't propose you get to know someone with whom you have zero chemistry, but perhaps some of those women  who don't seem interesting to you might seem different after a coffee date. Who knows and well, a coffee date can be just that, no big deal if it doesn't work out.

[Meili]

Lockjaw and NW's stories resonate with me and parallel my own. I'm sure that many of us can relate to them.

Being able to see how the dynamics of our FOO have played out in our relationships is very helpful in guiding us into the future. Once we've begun to realize the taught behavioral patterns, we can start to learn new patterns that will benefit us greatly in all relationships.

When we start to see that much of what we do is reactive, we can change things to become proactive in our own lives.

What this means with regard to the emotional void in our relationships is that we can proactively seek ways to fill that void. If the void is created by our pwBPD not validating us, we can learn (and should!) to self-validate. If that void is created because we don't feel loved, we can (and, again, should!) learn to love ourselves.  If the void is created from a lack of romantic connection, we can then examine our actions in the creating romance.

Yes, there are people that we get involved with that will prevent any and all of the above from occurring. The good news is that once we become proactive in our own lives, we can make healthy decisions about what we truly want rather than simply reacting to what we are given.

[Lockjaw]

Yes that does make an impact. I am compliant to keep the peace and avoid the beat down, be it verbal, or really, physical. I told my GF one night not to long ago that I have an underlying fear she will just hit me out of the blue if she is angry with me. She thought I was crazy, but really, I am not.

The difference is now I am not some small middle school age kid, I'm a grown man, so I would not just take being smacked now. I would fight back. I wanted to so bad when I was growing up, but I knew what would happen. And of course I fear I would really unload to make up for not fighting back when I couldn't as a child.

If you take this deeper. One particularily nasty back and forth between my dad and I made me go get my shotgun out of the locked gun closet. My sis thought I had pulled it on my dad, we talked about it the other day, and I said, no, I just didn't feel safe. I didn't have ammo in it. I just went and got it.

This has all come back to light because of my relationship with a BP GF. She can be a wonderful woman, who makes me so happy, and then just out of the blue, the darkness comes. She says now, her punishment doesn't fit her crime. I said, what happens when you go to court and you have a rap sheet a mile long? She does get nor does she like that.

They get you. I have done a lot of reading. BP's get you. They are fantastic for a while, until they can't hide it anymore, and then... .you get blindsided and wonder what the heck just happened.

I just want to hit a home run every once in a while.

[Lockjaw]

My self validation today was to put together a stripped AR15 lower, and get a bunch of ammo I loaded a few years ago situated. Then I prepped 440 cases to load next time I am bored. So I am ready for my upper to show up at work on monday. Then I can put on the rear sight and maybe hit the range before I go home to no kids monday evening.

thankfully rifle deer season opens next weekend, and the moon was out tonight, so... .if its cool, I will be happy. This is my favorite time of year. I love cool, clear crisp evenings with a moon out. I really need to go camp out someplace. That would make me happy.