Spent a few hours with my ex ...

[rfriesen]

... .over the course of two days. I was back visiting our old work place where she still works. We had lunch one day, and then I stopped by her place briefly today before heading out of town. Lunch was a good experience, a lot of laughs together, joking almost like we used to do, and both of us seeming to accept that things are truly over, even both acknowledging that it was all very painful but beautiful.

Today at her place we cried a lot together and talked about what might have been. All in all, it's hard to imagine what could be better in the way of closure. So, yes, I'm incredibly grateful for that, and I recognise that my ex is not as difficult or out-of-control as some of those described by other members. And certainly that I played my part in the chaos of the relationship. We joked today that we really needed an adult in the room -- "we needed a chaperone" -- during our relationship because we just let ourselves go wild with everything.

And yet, as grateful as I am for the genuine and meaningful talks yesterday and today, I can't help but feel again how toxic and intoxicating this relationship is for me. It's so easy to slip back into the old feelings, so easy to forget the rage and lies and hurtfulness, and for today at least those old feelings just overwhelm everything else in life. It's the kind of drug that makes you want to let everything else in life fall away, as long as you can have this.

But, no, I have no worries there. I live on the other side of the continent now and there is no looking back. It's just hard to walk out the door finally having that sense of closure -- so many of us want it so bad, but it's a tough pill to swallow when it's finally given to us, isn't it?

I've read so many posts here of members who met with their exes and struggled with their resolve in the face of old feelings. I've often given advice or suggestions from an outside perspective. But it sure is a humbling feeling to be there on the inside, and feel that overwhelming surge of longing, love, pain, heartache. Logic, rationality, will power ... .in the moment, at least, are just shadows and cobwebs in the face of the longing that surges through you.

How have others dealt with this? Tonight I'm trying to just stay grounded in my body -- observe the physical sensations rather than follow the thoughts in my head. I never knew how intense heartache could feel, just in a simple physical sense. I'm trying to also be grateful for the whole experience, pain included. It opens up new perspectives on life, accepting how broken desire can feel sometimes, that we are pretty damn frail creatures and life is short and unpredictable ... .and just plain weird. But, I have to admit, it's not always easy to stay philosophical about things when the pain really ramps up.

[elfyguy]

Hey Rfriesen,

She's made it really easy for me to face my feelings - she's in a new relationship and showing it off to the world. If it was a few months ago, I'd do anything to go back to her. It's funny how our instincts know the best course of action? However, it's not so easy to follow our instincts.

I think we all desire love and affection. Even more so for us, who accepted so much abuse from borderlines. So, it seems like you're doing the right thing: observe yourself and try understand why her personality has made such an impact on your life. We are frail and life is short, and love would normally be seen as an acceptable distraction, but dating a borderline is just not worth it, in my opinion. And in my opinion, it's not love.

How am I dealing with my loneliness and missing my BPDex? Therapy, trying aspects of Buddhism, socialising, meditation, a lot of reflection, on and on. I'm letting myself feel my emotions and trying to stop the logical side taking over. For me, my rationality has been used as an unconscious distraction.

Good luck my friend, you can do it!

[valet]

I had many similar experiences, rfriesen.

I'm going to challenge you here, as I think I can draw parallels to you at this point in detachment from your ex. The first time I saw my ex after our breakup, it seemed kind of like how you described: close, but not all the way there. There were gaps. Small gaps, but significant ones, in her behavior and how I felt about who she was. It wasn't the same.

I want you to think about this. You will surely move at your own pace. There's no denying that. But why meet up? Is she in therapy? Has she committed to getting help? Is there any real reason for you to invest anything in her at all?

I know this sounds harsh. I'm curious, though.

[Warcleods]

I had many similar experiences, rfriesen.

I'm going to challenge you here, as I think I can draw parallels to you at this point in detachment from your ex. The first time I saw my ex after our breakup, it seemed kind of like how you described: close, but not all the way there. There were gaps. Small gaps, but significant ones, in her behavior and how I felt about who she was. It wasn't the same.

I want you to think about this. You will surely move at your own pace. There's no denying that. But why meet up? Is she in therapy? Has she committed to getting help? Is there any real reason for you to invest anything in her at all?

I know this sounds harsh. I'm curious, though.

You bring up an interesting point here.  My exBPD would play these games where I was so many wonderful things to her but there was always "something," holding her back according to her, but she could never pinpoint what it was.  She always tried to relegate the relationship from the intensity it was to becoming "friends."  In retrospect, her inward devaluation of the relationship was a constant struggle instead of accepting the relationship for what it was and trying to build from it.  She did the same exact thing to herself.  My position on it was firm, we are not and never have been casual friends and I do not have an emotion switch I can just flip.  Back to your point though, there may be a time when ex lovers can really become "friends," but I think that is a long process that requires internal healing from the relationship and a true abandonment of those strong feelings.  In my opinion, that takes time and everyone will move at their own pace.  rfriesen may be at that point if her presence / interactions don't produce any feelings of pain.  One must ask what her motives are though.  While he may feel vindication from the relationship, it is easy to be drawn back into the mess over a short period of time.  I think some critical questions need to be answered here.  Most importantly, "What am I really gaining from re-engaging with a person that caused me such pain in the past? and What am I trying to get from her that I cannot get from a more sound and stable person?"

[heartandwhole]

Hi rfriesen,

I can imagine the bittersweetness of that meeting, and I think you are doing a great job with feeling your feelings about it. I had closure: lots of "I love you's" and loving feelings at the end. In fact, it seemed to me that he felt relieved at that moment, because there had been so much intensity and dysregulation just before.

I knew then that it was over and that we would never have any kind of relationship. I wasn't a "believer" anymore. Don't know if that makes sense, but it's the best way I can describe how I came to accept what was in front of me.

If I spent a few hours with him, I wouldn't be surprised if old feelings came up again; that's why I wouldn't do it.    But no matter what he says, I don't believe anymore. It's not that I think he is lying, it's that I know that I can't rely on his thoughts or feelings being consistent. And that's enough for me to know that I don't want a relationship with him, as much as it IS a loss.

Do you believe that you can have a close and loving and satisfying relationship with someone else, rfriesen?

heartandwhole

[rfriesen]

Good luck my friend, you can do it!

Thanks, elfyguy! I appreciate it. For me too, it's not love in any sense that I can really make sense of. Her love is very conditional -- be exactly the person I want, and I'll love you to the moon and back, but break one of my conditions, and I will cut you. I'm not saying my love is unconditional, but I never made demands like her -- I was ok being a fling, then I was ok trying to be a couple, then I was ok trying to be friends or at least friendly. By "ok", I mean I was at least trying to show love and care and kindness even if there were painful feelings and even if she wasn't being the person I might have wanted her to be.

As others have noted in many different ways, it's a long painful process to accepting that someone we've loved deeply is not capable of the same effort at kindness even in trying circumstances.

[rfriesen]

I had many similar experiences, rfriesen.

I'm going to challenge you here, as I think I can draw parallels to you at this point in detachment from your ex. The first time I saw my ex after our breakup, it seemed kind of like how you described: close, but not all the way there. There were gaps. Small gaps, but significant ones, in her behavior and how I felt about who she was. It wasn't the same.

I want you to think about this. You will surely move at your own pace. There's no denying that. But why meet up? Is she in therapy? Has she committed to getting help? Is there any real reason for you to invest anything in her at all?

I know this sounds harsh. I'm curious, though.

I appreciate you being blunt, valet. It helps.

Yes, gaps. Lots of them. But as you say, small. But there's an undercurrent of hostility at times, as if she's instinctively looking for an opening to start piling on some guilt, an outlet for the pain and frustration she feels with me. I'm the one who finally ended things, and I don't think she can accept that, especially as she often puts out feelers about getting back together and I make it clear that I don't want to be together, but would like for us to be friendly with one another. I had let that all be for months, until she came back to saying she was ready to be friends now. I know, we hear that a lot around here and it rarely ends well. But I saw her knowing I would not get back together with her. It was more intense seeing her than I had counted on, but at no point did I think that we should be back together.

Is there any real reason to invest at all? Well, I would say yes. I know we were both hurt bad in our relationship and I've always told her, sincerely, that I would be there if she reached out needing a friend. She reached out saying she needed a friend. Now, I get that your question may be more along the lines of "is there any good, sufficient reason to invest at all?" I don't think so, at this point. The vibe was too intense and, like you say, there were gaps or undercurrents that felt like major red flags. And, if I'm being honest, there's also the matter of still feeling a very intense sexual connection and I definitely wavered in moments when she was hinting that we could at least have sex again. We didn't, but with a little distance now, I think there's still too much intensity. And of course, once I accepted to make another round of efforts at being friendly, she stopped making any real effort from her side.

I think I still carry a lot of guilt thinking of how much pain she expressed when I ended things. And it took a few tries to push through the rage and hurt she was expressing and to finally hold to my decision. It was all very toxic and drawn out, as I'm sure you understand.

You know, at this point, I'm not worried about a recycle. I know I can resist that. I just tend to forget how much it still cuts me when I do my best to sincerely offer her openness and vulnerability as a friend (or ex-lover or whatever we want to call it -- obviously we're not talking good buddies here, but just someone who knows you well and will listen with kindness and compassion if you want to share a thought or feeling or joy or little bit of your life now and then, or to share the pain of a hard break-up). It still cuts deep to know we've shared some pretty intense experiences, to see her struggling in her own way and reaching out for help, only to go back down the same painful dynamics.

So, I hear you, it is what it is and I've seen it enough to know that it won't change. I'm still hurting today, but overall I don't regret seeing her this time. I did my best to hold true to what I wanted to express. I do care for her. I do carry pain and some anger still, but mostly love and openness. I don't want to be together as a couple or any kind of romantic connection or lovers. That's too painful. So that's where I am and that's what I expressed to her, even if it took more out of me than I would have liked. That doesn't mean I want to do that again or try anymore. It wasn't the wisest thing to get sucked back in to the extent I did, but it was a short visit and I'll take a little time now to work through these feelings. I think it could be worse

[rfriesen]

My exBPD would play these games where I was so many wonderful things to her but there was always "something," holding her back according to her, but she could never pinpoint what it was.  She always tried to relegate the relationship from the intensity it was to becoming "friends."

I'm in a bit of a reverse situation in that I finally ended things with her because I couldn't take the raging and jealousy and demands. She expressed so much hurt and hysteria that I backed down several times from actually ending things, until I really had to. It was very painful all around. I was so racked with guilt and sadness that I kept trying to be there for her and at least express that I was hurting too and to try to share the pain, as I had been my experience with past break-ups that felt healthy, even if painful. That was a big mistake, ultimately, because she took the opportunity to really pile on the guilt and hurt and devaluation, and I was not strong enough to resist the sexual connection at that point, so it was all ugly and toxic.

I saw this in part as a chance to show her that I was sincere and would be there even if there were no sex or any romantic connection involved. But I do get that this raises the question, what am I trying to prove, and to who? Why do I care if she knows that I really care, sex or no sex, romance or no romance? I think I've done enough to show it already, but there's that urge to go back there, to relive the bittersweetness of letting go. Probably not the healthiest thing, overall.

rfriesen may be at that point if her presence / interactions don't produce any feelings of pain.

No, I'm not at that point. It was quite painful.

Thanks for the advice, warcleods!

[rfriesen]

I can imagine the bittersweetness of that meeting, and I think you are doing a great job with feeling your feelings about it.

Yes, intense bittersweetness. To the point that my chest is constricted and pretty sore today. At least that makes it somewhat easier to just observe bodily sensations

I knew then that it was over and that we would never have any kind of relationship. I wasn't a "believer" anymore. Don't know if that makes sense, but it's the best way I can describe how I came to accept what was in front of me.

Makes perfect sense. In my relationship, when I started to withdraw, she focused so much on what I needed to do to make her a "believer" in me. The guilt still weighs on me, but I can see that it blinded me for a long time to the question of what she would need to do to make me believe in her. Once that question was driven home to me (once the obviousness of her issues with rage, lying, manipulating suddenly hit home), it kind of made me understand the extent of her projection. Though that still makes my head spin a bit.

Do you believe that you can have a close and loving and satisfying relationship with someone else, rfriesen?

Yes. I have my own issues that were brought out in this relationship. But, all in all, I know I'm a loving person and have a lot to give. I just wish it all could have ended on kinder terms with this person. Can't always get what we wish for though