understanding boundaries and behaviour: help, please

[Renard]

Hello All,

I'm new to this board and newish to this site. I've recently been through an incredibly traumatic termination in which my BPD partner ended our relationship, but we have re-established contact.

I would really appreciate some help understanding my partner's termination--contact--boundary behaviour. The ending of the relationship occurred definitively: I was declared an awful person to whom she would never speak again, but the resumption of contact involved her rethinking that decision.

She wants to reconsider things and would like to maintain friendship for the current time (and maybe even resume our love relationship). We have a long distance relationship, so friendship is easily done in terms of logistics--a short phone call once a day and few texts is the sum of things right now. She says her need to keep things at the level of friends is so that she doesn't feel the guilt she would experience if we tried to talk about what happened when she split from me.

Here's my question: is this pattern of intimacy--termination--friendship boundary something that fits within BPD behaviour and something any of you could help me understand? We really could talk at profound levels before the split.

 

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[sad but wiser]

Hi Renard.
Yes, this is typical BPD behavior called "recycling."  It is remarkable painful for the subject of the recycle (you) and gratifying to the BPD person (who will say "apparently everyone hates me because I'm horrible."   Then you come to the rescue and disregard the fact that your feelings matter too.
  Hear me now:  people with BPD are black holes of emotional need.  You may love the conversations because you are intelligent and deep and need to talk with someone who "gets it,"  but you are going to pay a heavy price. 
  You can read plenty about this phenomena here on this site. 

[Renard]

sad but wiser,

Thanks for writing. I didn't quite explain clearly enough what's happening: her resumption of contact and friendship has really firm boundaries. Instead of being needy or receiving gratification from contacting me she seems to be in some real pain and was not able to continue in a conversation tonight. She wanted to sign off, so we did, and needed the distance and space.

Prior to the splitting, we would have easily talked through her distress. Does my effort at clarifying help show my puzzlement? I think I could get it if she reached in intimacy, but instead she is okay with contact but then has to retreat in distress. It's her who is invoking the boundary. Perhaps it's recycling, but some kind of variation?

[sad but wiser]

The hardest part of understanding for me was that the symptoms are not all there is to the person.  The person you know is 3 dimensional, but symptoms are kind of 2-dimensional.  So it can be hard to recognize the symptoms for what they are.  Does that make sense?
  Of course she is in distress.  That is usually the case.  And you get to save her.  That's your role.  And for the moment, your heart melts.  You are a hero after all!  Not the villan like she said before.
   This stuff is so hard to deal with!  It strikes at a man's core.  Normal women do want their man to be their hero.  It just shouldn't be needed on a constant basis.

[Renard]

sad but wiser,

I'm certainly not the hero right now. I went from beloved to villain to friend. The friend part is a strain for her, and there's no room for being a hero in it.

Your words on three dimensions and two dimensions are good ones.

[sad but wiser]

The only real question here is, "What do you want and need?"
If she doesn't get what she wants in a relationship from you, she will look elsewhere.  But her thinking of what you need just isn't in the cards,  so you will have to take care of that part.
It can feel good to think we are irreplacible, and maybe we are.  Few people will put up with crazy in a close relationship.

[Meili]

I have a slightly different take on this than sad but wiser does.

I don't think that this is an actual "recycle" because she doesn't want the romantic relationship back.

My guess would be that her desire to maintain the friendship is because of her fear of abandonment. As long as the friendship exists, the attachment exists.

I do agree that you'll have to figure out what you want and look after your own needs though Renard.

[Renard]

The only real question here is, "What do you want and need?"
If she doesn't get what she wants in a relationship from you, she will look elsewhere.  But her thinking of what you need just isn't in the cards,  so you will have to take care of that part.
It can feel good to think we are irreplacible, and maybe we are.  Few people will put up with crazy in a close relationship.

sad but wiser,

I believe she has gone elsewhere in terms of an intimate relationship. I don't know that for certain, but the splitting did involve someone else in a triangle.

Your question is the one that I'm wrestling with. I'm trying to decide how do I remain a friend when I gave myself to her in love. She says we might still be able to continue some day in romance, yet I feel kind of used right now. I would like to be able to talk more openly with her, yet anything that revisits the things she did to terminate us brings on too much stress for her.

[Renard]

I have a slightly different take on this than sad but wiser does.

I don't think that this is an actual "recycle" because she doesn't want the romantic relationship back.

My guess would be that her desire to maintain the friendship is because of her fear of abandonment. As long as the friendship exists, the attachment exists.

I do agree that you'll have to figure out what you want and look after your own needs though Renard.

Meili,

Thank you for writing. It helps to have your thoughts and those of sad but wiser. If I had to guess (but I am guessing) then I would say she has transferred her love to the other guy she was triangulating me with when she split. She is a bit more stable now and has re-established contact with me and asked to be friends. It does feel more like I'm an attachment that she does not want to lose.

At the same time, I believe it is possible that she has discovered and is discovering that the other relationship is one that is and must be more professional and collegial than romantic (or, perhaps, even, that's what she wants). When she re-contacted me she did say that there might be romance again between us but that she needed to go really slowly--hence the definition of us as friends for now.

I suppose it doesn't matter much where she stands with someone else, and that I still need to decide what I want. I am deeply committed to her, and I love her still. That's the point: I am trying to understand myself here. My provisional thoughts are these: I can be her friend now and for some indefinite period of time because she is just stabilizing after a really difficult time (she is bipolar and has a range of BPD behaviour--from incredibly highly functional [actually, BPD not discernible at all] to pretty unregulated, especially if the bipolar is creating an imbalance for her). But, in the long run, I do not think I am capable of merely being a friend to she whom I gave myself so profoundly and whom I call my beloved, best friend, and partner.

To be merely a friend in the long, long run I think would be too difficult for me. For now, I can continue on in friendship, yet if we cannot at some point talk about our relationship for what it was and might be then I think I need to say I cannot continue in any capacity.

[Meili]

Knowing how much you can endure is a very good thing. It allows you to define a boundary.

I would say that you're correct about it not mattering where she stands with someone else. You have no control over her after all. So, let's focus on you... .

It doesn't sound like being an attachment that she doesn't want to lose is not enough for you. Have you determined where the boundary is for you?

[Renard]

Meili,

Thanks for writing. I confess I'm lonely tonight, so your note is most welcome.

At this point, I am thinking through my boundaries, but basically I would like to find increasing levels of honesty in our relationship. Such honesty would include saying that my feelings are those of love, not simply friendship.

I don't need to revisit the awful stuff that happened at the split. Rather, I would like to know whether we can speak of love and an openness to the future and to finding ways to be good to one another.

I would call my partner high functioning, and I have some hope she could get back to such a state once she stabilizes on her medications (for the bipolar). This point matters because she is still in a pretty rocky state from time in the hospital and her own guilt over some of the things that happened recently. I am prepared to stay at the level of friendship now until I get some sense that she would be willing to talk again at a deeper level.

I don't believe I'm hoping in some empty way because she has asked for some time and for the room to get her own supports in place. She will be seeing a psychiatrist regularly as follow up to the hospitalization, and she says she is definitely staying on her meds this time for the bipolar.

I'm still in process at this point and low contact between us is helpful.

[sad but wiser]

I want to add my "good for you!" to Meili's comments.  Knowing what you can endure in the relationship is very good. 
  You are in the relationship too.

[Renard]

sad but wiser,

Thank you for writing.

I am not sure how much endurance I have, yet I have been very strong in this relationship over the past four years. I was doing so without knowledge of BPD, and without knowledge of my role in making things more difficult than they needed to be at time.

I can see that I was adding some difficulty to things by giving too much--so much so that there are some issues of codependency that need to be addressed. I am doing so, and, again, low contact right now is giving both us some room. 

[Meili]

I know that it's hard not feel comfortable talking about future romantic relationship together. I've been through that. But, it's probably best not to fan the flames of the emotional arousal.

What I discovered is that I didn't need to talk about though I just needed to do it. It seems that the less stress that I put on my x about the future, the better things are.

There is a theory that a lot of talking about the future together can appear clingy and needy. Those things are not attractive, and they are especially unattractive to a pwBPD because they need strength and structure to feel safe.

So, why not, rather than talking about the future, show her when you're ready? I do agree that LC while you're processing is a good idea though.

[waverider]

What she proposing is all hypothetical at the moment and typical of avoiding responsibility for her choices.

What do you think she would do if you started pulling away? Hence putting the ball back in her court and forcing her to either hit it or put it down, rather than just bouncing it on maybes.

As it is you are stuck in pending mode. Your default should be to do something else unless she gives you good reason not to. Otherwise you will feel second rate whether she keeps it like this or eventually defaults back to you, as you will feel like a fall back.

Most likely she is happy to be "just friends"  as long as that is her call and not yours. If you genuinely felt and acted 'just friends" the dynamics would most likely change. Of course you cant just decide to genuinely feel that way, so you cant stay in this role if you cant. You will be deluding yourself and that will come back to eat at your own self esteem

[Renard]

Meili,

Thanks for your thoughts. You're right about talk of the future in my case. I don't know that my partner sees it as needy, yet it is a stressor for both of us. As much as I would like to talk about where things are going or might go, I have resolved that I will not talk on the question of the future.

The nightmare of the way things terminated and then the surprise of being contacted again has left me so confused that there are days when I feel I need to diagram what happened and is happening just to render the confusion into some kind of order and clarity. That same need for clarity makes me want to have another diagram--one which helps me have the very strength and structure you mention. This diagram would show the past and the inadvisability of talking about what happened, of finding ways to forgive, the present as one in which we maintain respectful and light contact while we each work on getting healthy, and the future is something that I cannot envision just yet. I don't know, but it may be possible and acceptable to be friends. I don't know what will happen. I might be the one who says I cannot continue in romance.

I need such clarity because I find I want so badly to talk a bit about what happened. In part it is because I am wounded, in part because it was such a surprise, and in large part because of the lies and distortions and delusions that she used to justify the way she ended things. In other words, I know she ended things for no real reason. That's a terrible truth, but the reason she ended things is an actual psychotic delusion with absolutely no substance. I keep thinking if she becomes stable enough we might be able to look at that and dispel it. Again, I know she is high functioning and now on her meds and she has the ability to say from time to time that things "are all in head" when they really are.  

To do so would still leave us needing to work on the relationship (which is decidedly not perfect but still with much good in it). It is difficult for me to type these words but I see now that I am not merely a helpful person. In this relationship, I have functioned as an enabler and a codependent. I mean not to make excuses, but the long distance nature of it and a few other things partly explain why this situation has been possible. Nonetheless, I need to get out of that role and get on with being healthy and more fully just me. I am seeing a therapist once a week and will turn my time with him more and more to getting help around the ways I have harmed the relationship through codependent and enabling behaviour.

I need to find a way to live as if there is no future for romance and yet leave open that prospect if the relationship is as good as I thought it was. It strikes me that this is a version of faith when I should be more like an atheist or agnostic in the relationship. But, I believed in her--that's why and how I fell in love with her and put my life in alignment with hers. Listen to me . . . I cannot stop being the altruist when it comes to her.

[Renard]

What she proposing is all hypothetical at the moment and typical of avoiding responsibility for her choices.

What do you think she would do if you started pulling away? Hence putting the ball back in her court and forcing her to either hit it or put it down, rather than just bouncing it on maybes.

As it is you are stuck in pending mode. Your default should be to do something else unless she gives you good reason not to. Otherwise you will feel second rate whether she keeps it like this or eventually defaults back to you, as you will feel like a fall back.

Most likely she is happy to be "just friends"  as long as that is her call and not yours. If you genuinely felt and acted 'just friends" the dynamics would most likely change. Of course you cant just decide to genuinely feel that way, so you cant stay in this role if you cant. You will be deluding yourself and that will come back to eat at your own self esteem

Waverider,

Thank you for writing. I am grateful for your ball and court talk because it is about strategy and action. I feel so powerless--especially because the split was a profound disregulation involving delusional thinking. As much as I care about her and admire her I do feel I am being controlled right now. If she is who I think she is then we should be able to talk. That's the pre-BPD insight talking. Post-BPD insight says to talk will only worsen things.

For me there is an awful tension--one which can nearly become a contradiction--between boundaries and honesty. Boundaries can be about managing truth, restricting it, and keeping it partial. Honesty is about connecting and making boundaries permeable. I think wisdom resides in knowing how to trust and respect boundaries (and thus the other person), but if the boundaries are definitive there is no bridging, no trusting, no intimacy, no love.

Back to your point: you may well be right, but I sense this is not the time to put the ball in her court. She is newly discharged from the hospital, newly on medication, and about to begin building her own support network. Also, even if she split in and because of delusional thinking I know that however much it is not true the emotion behind it is.

She feels things so acutely. I was brusque with her while she was delusional (she was threatening me and raging). I am the one who first took her to the psych ward in what became a serial set of trips there. She was released, taken to the psych ward again by the health care people at her workplace, released, and then she took herself to the psych ward a third time and then stayed in for two weeks. She is out now and firmly diagnosed as bipolar (she was once diagnosed as such years ago, but she is resourceful and tough and managed to live without her meds).

Even though she took herself to the psych ward ultimately and even though she is much stabilized now and has a referral to a psychiatrist at her workplace she still blames me for causing the diagnosis and for the ways she acted over the week or so of bouncing in and out of the psyc ward before landing there for a couple of weeks. This woundedness is real for her. In fairness, I might have found something more resourceful to do than taking her to the psych ward--even though she agreed to go there the night we went.

 I know her habit is to forgive, and I think she may find a way to forgive. I am not waiting for that ultimate state, however. I also am working on the belief that there is some BPD mixed in with the bipolar and that she is capable of staying angry for very long periods of time.  I would like some sense that she is stable, and I would like to feel that I am somehow mending from the hurts I have and how I enabled too much and created some codependency.

Waverider, I know I am going on and on, but it helps. Thank you, then, for reading.

One more thing: I have been on this site basically since the split and feel I have learned a fair bit and have some better insight into myself and my relationship. One of the biggest realizations here is just how difficult it is to be in a relationship with a truly high functioning BPD person (hmm ... .I think all such relationships are tough--each with there own challenges). She is strong, and tough, and brilliant, and hard working, and successful, and truly wonderful (all facts, and not my idealization), yet she definitely is bipolar and in her manic or depressive states BPD traits express themselves. Also, in the privacy and intimacy of our relationship she depended on me too much and I fostered too much dependency, which in turn became its own kind of codependency. The strong and successful person that she is now resents that dependency even though her resentment has remnants of the delusional thought and BPD stuff all woven through it. She is also so angry that it is not possible to clear the air about what I know are misunderstandings because they are the stuff of the disregulation and delusion she experienced when the bipolar and the BPD hit her so hard at the same time.

With all these thoughts in mind, I think I am pending for now and trusting that she is all that I know her to be and that we may be able to talk just enough to know where we stand.

[waverider]

High functioning pwBPD loath dependency, so when it comes to light that they have been dependent on someone the desire to push away and take a position of control is overwhelming, even to the point of self loathing that can be projected onto the other person.

They can even view this vulnerability as a threat, even as a betrayal by the other person. pwBPD can read 'invitations' as the demands and needs of others. They like to instigate there own invitations

Once you discover BPD and all the tools that can be used it is tempting to want to jump back into the frey and fix everything up with these new techniques. Typically it is better to give yourself space so that you can be more centered in yourself. Most of these techniques are really about ourselves and how we deal with everyone. We change us, and we become less of a threat to those who are more sensitive as pwBPD are. We are therefore affecting change to the environment around us, presenting a safer place for others to be less defensive, and more likely to invite themselves into it, as they then seen as their need not yours.

[Renard]

Wave rider,

Wow: what you say makes sense because I now recognize what your are talking about is at work in my relationship. I see that I have really made things worse. What started as a really good relationship allowed for codependent behaviour. I say that now because I have had some really painful realizations in the last couple of days.

I really get what you say about loathing dependency. It helps me put the pieces together in a way that I couldn't before. Ordinarily, she would reach for help, and I would offer it instinctively. She had a real crisis episode and that teased out some of my vulnerability, and now she has shifted into utter control. She is also projecting her self loathing, so you are really accurate in your comments.

You are also right on another point: my invitations are now perceived as demands even though that's not what I mean to convey. My confusion has been so thick because of the change in patterns, but that's because I couldn't see what I was contributing to the mess we're in now.

It's pretty basic, but I simply need to stop helping--period!

I know that I haven't been a codependent in other relationships, but this one allowed me to become that way. I have made a worse mess than was necessary.

Right now, I see the need to steer clear and to make sure that low contact is truly low contact. She has invited phone calls each day, yet they are dicey. In fact, so dicey that I think I need to wrestle with passing on the invitations from time to time.

Because of the wake up call, I see that jumping back in to fix things is just too challenging for both of us right now. I am going to go work on my own garbage and let her look after hers.

[Renard]

Waverider,

One more thing: thank you! You have nailed things for me. If you have any more insights I would welcome them.

[waverider]

I know that I haven't been a codependent in other relationships, but this one allowed me to become that way. I have made a worse mess than was necessary.

BPD relationships coax you into it. It is very subtle yet insidious

[sad but wiser]

I think it is hardest for men.  They are geared for problem solving, and a crisis they can fix is their glory.  Since it was they who fixed the problem, the problem becomes theirs forever.   It is so hard not to tell someone you love what to do!  And if you go the questioning route "What outcome do you want?"  The answer is always, "I'm not sure." Or "I don't know, I'm lost.  What should I do?"   

[Lockjaw]

Why do you want to resume a romantic relationship with her if she is with someone else? To me that just seems like a recipe for more of the same down the road.

[Renard]

BPD relationships coax you into it. It is very subtle yet insidious

Agreed: she brought the BPD and bipolar, but I brought the problem solving and helping. It took two of us.

[Renard]

I think it is hardest for men.  They are geared for problem solving, and a crisis they can fix is their glory.  Since it was they who fixed the problem, the problem becomes theirs forever.   It is so hard not to tell someone you love what to do!  And if you go the questioning route "What outcome do you want?"  The answer is always, "I'm not sure." Or "I don't know, I'm lost.  What should I do?"   

Sad but wiser,

Unfortunately, I can think of too many instances where the situation you describe played out for my partner and me. I see now that what has been both a good relationship has also been one set to really hit a wall. That's why the splitting and the unravelling and the re-establishing contact has been so incredibly confusing. I think I have things sorted now, and see no alternative to but to keep contact utterly minimal or, perhaps, to no contact. She is getting some help, and I am getting some help.

[Renard]

Why do you want to resume a romantic relationship with her if she is with someone else? To me that just seems like a recipe for more of the same down the road.

Lockjaw,

Good question: I am guessing she has bonded to someone else, but I don't know that for sure. I also think that circumstances may not allow romance between her and the guy she is idealizing. In truth, though, right now it doesn't matter. I have enough of my own work to do, and I can't worry one way or the other about what she is doing.

[Lockjaw]

I think it is hardest for men.  They are geared for problem solving, and a crisis they can fix is their glory.  Since it was they who fixed the problem, the problem becomes theirs forever.   It is so hard not to tell someone you love what to do!  And if you go the questioning route "What outcome do you want?"  The answer is always, "I'm not sure." Or "I don't know, I'm lost.  What should I do?"   

THIS! I told mine dudes like to win too. They are competitive and need to win. Getting options that only are fail options kill our spirit and make us not want to try.

[Renard]

Lockjaw,

Too true: I was her man for all seasons and was ready to do anything and everything for her.

[Lockjaw]

I know right? Mines on fire right now because I haven't done enough around her house. I have done more in a year than her ex did in 10. But its not enough.

And the constant critiquing of what I do. You should have seen the fight about the basement exterior door we had to replace. Door jamb and all. It didn't fit. I told her it didn't. It was off 1/4 inch. Needed brick mold pulled off, install door and jamb, then trim brick mold and attach. She could not get her head around it. Couldn't fathom how she told me to measure the door 3 times and it didn't fit.

Oh no, I had to put door back in hole for her to try to get it to fit. Even from my side, me telling her, it won't fit. OH NO, SHE KNOWS BETTER.

Then had to come tell me later, as I was just starting to shim it that it was off. Uh yeah, I know. So I got sent home. I still got it hung, got the locks in, got it closing properly. Then she monkey's with it and said it doesn't close right now.

Oh well. I was released. She's mad I am not over there working right now. But I was told I wasn't invited over tonight.

But she feels scammed, because after all, I get fussed at ( can I say the b word here )? if I do anything, or if I don't. Why knock myself out just to get fussed at? I can do nothing and get that. And she can't see it. She just can't. Its not possible.

And I am paying for the EX's sins.

[Renard]

Lockjaw,

Thanks for writing. Are you sure you should be doing all that work for her?