Understanding that I was abused.

[valet]

Today I've been pondering a big question. It seems to me like I still can't make the connection internally that my BPDex actually was very emotionally abusive towards me for a year and some change. It's like a crucial piece of understanding and healing that I need is missing. I recognize the behaviors, and I know what abuse is (and I'm certainly committed to never being treated like this again), but I can't quite associate those actions (her actions) with her person.

When I think about it, I've never been able to do this over the course of a 4 year friendship/relationship. I don't want to give her the benefit of the doubt, and I don't feel that I do. So this is puzzling. She hurt me, but I can't seem to hold her accountable in my head for any sustained period of time. I've cut off contact and I don't ever plan on speaking to her again if I am able to, and I have a plan set up for what I will do if she tries to contact me.

So, why exactly can't I make this connection? Has anyone here felt similarly?

[Circle]

Maybe it has something to do with you being overly compassionate. Which seems like it occurs with being co-dependent. If you have a naturally non-judgmental outlook, and forgive easily, it could be an effort to critique someone else's actions.

I'm not sure; yet it seems to me, that if you understand logically that what they did to you was undignified, that is enough. Maybe you should make a list of the things that you can be objectively critical of, that they did to you. Or what they didn't do for you, that they should have; neglect can also be abusive.

Keep looking at the list and reminding yourself. Just an idea.

[rfriesen]

valet, you hit the nail on the head for me too. I feel the exact same thing -- at a "gut level" it doesn't quite sink in that my ex was abusive. For me, I feel in part it's that I was the one always holding out a little in the relationship, not being as ready as her to move to the next step (a long tug-of-war in particular with her insisting I move in with her), and I finally ended it. So I felt like I had to make an extra effort to be there for her as she seemed so unbelievably shocked and hurt by it all. And from the start of our relationship, she was in crisis mode (leaving her fiancé months before their planned wedding, moving to a new apartment on her own, etc). I was so worried about not hurting her, and her idealization of me in the honeymoon phase was so intense, that I don't think I could ever see myself as the one being subject to abuse, although of course it registered that the eventual raging, jealousy, accusations, momentary discards, etc were cruel and way outside the bounds of normal.

I think I spent so long trying to pick her up and feeling guilty for telling her I could continue only as a friend, that I was blind to the fact that I was being treated horribly by the end. It certainly messes with your head, doesn't it? Maybe as much as my ex instinctively feels like a victim, I have the opposite tendency and resent the idea of being seen (even by myself) as a victim. In fact, I think I probably do instinctively recoil at the idea of being a victim, and maybe there is some fear of vulnerability there. Do you feel the same?

[valet]

I definitely have felt that way at moments. It was especially triggered when she tried to project her problems onto me. In fact, I cut off contact for good because of something along these lines. She kept insisting that I was the one that needed help when I confronted her about her abusive behaviors towards me during our relationship. And she refused to see the truth in what I was saying... .altering her own reality to put her in a victim stance. It almost felt as if she were accusing me of being the abusive one, when the reality was that I simply gave too much in the relationship and wanted to understand what our friendship actually was in a clear and fair way. She couldn't reconcile her part. It is just utterly frustrating, even now.

I have good boundaries with others. I enforce them well, and they treat me how I show them to. Most of my friendships are healthy, and the ones that aren't, well, I find myself naturally drifting away from them.

And I think... .somewhere deep down, that because I've seen this victim mentality on blast over and over again (in my relationships, especially), I've grown to despise the idea of identifying with it. I'm not there yet emotionally, but this could be a start.

[valet]

Also, somewhere is this range of emotions the past week has given me, I just realized that I am never going to let this happen again. I've never felt this way before and believed myself.

I'm done with this crap. Anyone that wants to treat me poorly is getting shown to the door.

[Reforming]

Hi Valet,

I remember a    moment after my relationship where I realise that my ex had behaved abusively.

When I looked back I realised there were other instances that I had chosen to deny at the time.

Why?

It's tough admitting that someone I loved abused me because raised painful questions about my own strength, health and judgement. Why did I tolerate it? Why didn't I end the relationship much sooner?

It also raised hard questions about the nature of my relationship. If she really loved me she would not have abused me… Did she ever really love me?

My ex was sexually abused as a child - it did a lot of damage. Sometimes I think she used it as a get out of jail card for her worst behaviour but the truth is I'm the one that excused her.

And what about my own behaviour? I said and did things some very cruel things too. I deeply regret that now but some of my behaviour was abusive too.

There are lots of reasons why people deny abuse.

I'll own my own behaviour and work on sorting it out and making better choices

Reforming

[stimpy]

The way that I see it is that abuse is an action, or series of actions perpetrated by one person on another. It may be verbal, emotional, physical, but it is an action of some sort, shouting for example is obviously verbal abuse, the silent treatment is emotional abuse, hitting someone is physical abuse.

But the abuse is an action, not an emotion. It is the emotion that follows that we feel and that can be anger (I've felt plenty of that), depression (yes I've had some of that and still do to a degree), fear (yes, I've had that too), guilt (yes that one too), oh and jealousy... .etc... .etc

The abuse becomes very dangerous when it is combined with manipulation, because then the abuser comes out in the one up position... .

She does something that hurts you (abuse)
You raise it with her, but your feelings are ignored (more abuse)
She then blames you, or shames you for being too sensitive or misunderstanding her (more abuse)
She knows you will accept this because you want the relationship to work (more abuse)

So by the end of it, you feel angry and guilty and emotionally invalidated, all at the same time.

So for me, it was connecting the emotions I felt, with the actions she perpetrated, and working out the pattern that made me realise how she had abused me. The main thing she abused in me, was my trust.  

Can I ask Valet, have you felt or are you feeling the emotions that a victim of abuse might feel? If so, then that might be the connection you are seeking?

[babyducks]

Hi valet,

I really struggled with the question of abuse, how much, what was,  when was it etc etc.

It seems to me like I still can't make the connection internally that my BPDex actually was very emotionally abusive towards me for a year and some change. It's like a crucial piece of understanding and healing that I need is missing. ... .

So, why exactly can't I make this connection? Has anyone here felt similarly?

What finally clicked for me was the understanding that so much of the abuse in my relationship was covert.   

I lifted this definition of covert abuse from another website:

Covert abuse is more difficult because it is usually about sins of omission. You are reacting to stimuli that isn't there - like reassurance, respect, explanations, etc

The part that works for me is the stimuli that isn't there.   The feeling of safety that is missing from normal conversations, the walking on eggshells stuff.   The subtle methods used to control the relationship, upset me and I will leave.   my person with BPD was brilliant at what she left out of conversations.   she could create an environment of disdain, contempt and disgust all under the guise of being either helpful, or protective of her fragile and neglected rights.

what was helpful for me was to lay another more normal relationship or conversation side by side with the one that left me  strangely disturbed without really being able to identify why.

my partner would say stuff like:  "I had a conversation with XYZ about you.   And how you acted Friday night.   Don't worry I defended you."

a more normal conversation would look like "XYZ noticed you were quiet Friday night and wondered if something was bothering you or if you felt okay.  I thought it was nice they were concerned."

to me, "the don't worry I defended you" is covert abuse,... .you did something wrong, people don't like you.    It's hard to identify covert abuse, it's subtle.  On the surface the one remark of "I defended" isn't too awful bad... .you could excuse it away with, 'well she didn't say that quite right',  but when it is daily, weekly, hourly it becomes a pattern.    my partner had a real thing about the TV and radio and without any doubt in my mind it was abusive.   She had a real boiling need to control the TV channel and the radio channel (and volume).  Sure she would say 'your turn to pick what we watch tonight'  and then make it crystal clear that my choice, whatever it was,  was horrible, not just bad,  horrible.   it was a subtle way to undermine my choices, question my judgement and create an atmosphere where my needs/wants were always questionable.   it was every night, every choice and without a question it was covert abuse.  I can tell you it didn't take long before the only thing on TV and radio was what she liked.   for me it was often about what she left out of conversations.   the stimuli that was missing.   

'ducks

[patientandclear]

Ducks, that was super helpful to me. Maybe the first time I've been able to put exact words on what was so damaging about my dynamic with my ex. No reassurance. Or reassurance that would immediately fail the minute I put my weight on it. No explanations (or they would stop when he got stressed). The constant feeling that if I didn't pass every test some new pain would be visited on me. Some amazingly harsh behavior training, punishing me for saying that what he did hurt, punishing me for ever asserting any control in the relationship.

These are his coping mechanisms and defenses, how he feels safe. But they were abusive. And those covert abuse dynamics are very tough to find "boundaries" for.

I struggle a lot with advice elsewhere on these boards about not taking it personally. I'm a survivor of a more overly abusive marriage, and everything I learned afterwards was not to rationalize such hurts. When someone is hurting you out of their own impulse for self-protection, something is very wrong, and it matters.

[myself]

While this is about seeing the bigger picture in the here and now, there are also layers of rewriting our own history that many of us feel uncomfortable with/ don't have much experience with. Admitting and facing it goes a long way though.

[valet]

@Reforming: That's the funny thing. I think that I have done a very good job of owning my own behavior and making sure that I spot and set strong boundaries with current and future people in my life. So I'm not unaware of what got me here, just struggling in some sense to make that last piece fit. I think what really happened was that at some point I began owning ALL of the behavior at a subconscious level (hers and mine), and it has been difficult for me to parse all of that out and separate how she behaved with who I am as a person.

It is kind of like this: my response to her splitting was that I was forced deep down to split her too. So in my mind there is the good her and the bad her, and those aren't the same person. So I have compassion for the good part, but the girl that would give silent treatments, withhold affection, be hyper critical, start circular arguments that led nowhere and then pretend everything was fine until the  next episode, etc... .I never made peace with that. And in some sense, because I'm not able to completely dissociate myself from one end of the split (like she is with me), my mind needed to reconcile those two halves. I guess that's what this is... .and it surprises me a bit that I'm just getting here now when I thought I had been here a while ago.

@stimpy: That's a good question. I think that more or less, I probably am. Internally at some level I still defend her character to myself because I know that she is disordered... .and that we had a decently long relationship and I really loved her. Victims often feel this sense of stockholm syndrome, so I don't think I'm off base. I'm not seeking the emotional connection of a victim, I'm seeking to have a clear and balanced perspective on all of this so that I can let go and not hold onto resentment. I may have been treated poorly in the past, and I do have to reconcile that, but that is not who I am. I'm not going to let this hold me back or diminish my self-esteem. I don't deserve that.

@ducks: My relationship was definitely very much like this. She wouldn't rage too much (although she did pretty heavily on a few occasions), but it wasn't like this weekly thing. In fact, we barely fought at all. I always sought real solutions, and I believed in communication and trust as the foundation for a healthy relationship. I think that she wanted something similar, but just didn't have the tools to make it possible... .so she reverted to faulty covert coping mechanisms (the silent treatment was a big one) that made her feel like she wasn't doing any damage to me. At the core though, she also wasn't working through anything—even if I thought at the time that what she had to work through and what she wanted out of me were ridiculous and illogical things that never seemed to have a real point. She was just damaging me and our relationship, and I let her do it because I thought that she just needed to be that way to process things.

I was always guessing, and that turned into me believing that since I was always guessing wrong (in her world), I had to be doing something wrong. In other words, if I love this person, why do I fail so much? In short, I took on something that wasn't mine to take, and I didn't know not to at the time because of who I was and where I came from. Things are different now, thankfully. But your comments are super useful. I never thought of it specifically in that way—that it wasn't just about the stimuli, but more about the lack thereof.

[elfyguy]

Valet,

My BPDex abused me for a long time and I knew it was unhealthy but never felt it. When the relationship was over, I fantasized how good it was. One of my coping mechanisms is to laugh whenever something bad happened to me. I also have a dark sense of humour. I remember when she once pointed a knife at me I laughed hysterically. I found the situation hilarious but I was also suppressing and repressing my anger, fear, sadness, etc. I could also laugh about the situation afterwards. My therapist pointed out my defense mechanism and helped me get in touch with my anger. I Now feel angry a whole lot more whenever something negative happens to me, and it feels really good!

I'm not saying you have the same thing, but something similar may be happening. Now, when I recall past events with her, I feel anger and sadness - I don't find it funny anymore.

[Reforming]

@Reforming: That's the funny thing. I think that I have done a very good job of owning my own behavior and making sure that I spot and set strong boundaries with current and future people in my life. So I'm not unaware of what got me here, just struggling in some sense to make that last piece fit. I think what really happened was that at some point I began owning ALL of the behavior at a subconscious level (hers and mine), and it has been difficult for me to parse all of that out and separate how she behaved with who I am as a person.

It is kind of like this: my response to her splitting was that I was forced deep down to split her too. So in my mind there is the good her and the bad her, and those aren't the same person. So I have compassion for the good part, but the girl that would give silent treatments, withhold affection, be hyper critical, start circular arguments that led nowhere and then pretend everything was fine until the  next episode, etc... .I never made peace with that. And in some sense, because I'm not able to completely dissociate myself from one end of the split (like she is with me), my mind needed to reconcile those two halves. I guess that's what this is... .and it surprises me a bit that I'm just getting here now when I thought I had been here a while ago.

I completely relate to the difficulty of owning too much. I certainly did this for a while - my ex was very good at conditioning my thinking so that by the end part of me believed all our problems were my fault. I found it really challenging to separate my choices and responsibilities from hers.

I think what I was trying to get at is that when we acknowledge that we were abused it can trigger shame. That can be painful too

[joeramabeme]

So, why exactly can't I make this connection? Has anyone here felt similarly?

Thanks Valet

During the last few years of my marriage I saw the best therapist I have ever had and she in no uncertain terms told me that my wifes behavior was abusive.  This T would know as she worked with incarcerated women who have had a history of abuse.  As much as I completely trusted this T's analysis of my marriage, I struggled a great deal with her pronouncement of my exes behavior.

At this time in marriage I was so deeply lost and desperately seeking answers that I would try anything, so I tried the "fake till you make it" routine with my then wife and went home and told her that she was being "abusive" and that it must stop.  I really was faking it all the way and just hoping that some door would open by saying it out loud. 

My wife's response was to immediately tell me why I deserved it.  I continued to repeat, I will not tolerate being abused.  Then my wife told me why I made her do it.  I continued to repeat, I will not tolerate being abused.  After the 4th iteration, my wife quietly listened and did not respond.  I asked her if she understood and agreed.  She said yes, but I know that she did not understand what I was saying. 

I felt empowered, emboldened and heartened that I at last stood up for myself and said no more.  I thought this was the beginning of the end of the bad behavior.  It wasn't.  The direct abuse subsided, but the put-downs took on a much more subversive way about them and every time I called her out on them, she would just say I was being too sensitive and not being "fun" as she was just kidding with me. 

I understood what "just kidding with me" meant.  I grew up in that environment.  Under the surface it meant you are being too serious, I really care about you, I wouldn't put you down if I didn't really love you.  We are just like two best buds who can say what we want without having to worry about the other getting offended.

To say you abused me is to break our silent and personal agreement and betray the deepest trust that we have with one another - that we share this mutual understanding.

To this day I still have a hard time saying she abused me.  Partially ego driven.  Partially driven by loyalty.  Partially driven by past messages that the term abuse is reserved for those with black eyes and broken bones.

In the end, when someone is treating you in a way that you do not want to be treated and will not stop when you ask, you are being abused.

[valet]

I completely relate to the difficulty of owning too much. I certainly did this for a while - my ex was very good at conditioning my thinking so that by the end part of me believed all our problems were my fault. I found it really challenging to separate my choices and responsibilities from hers.

I think what I was trying to get at is that when we acknowledge that we were abused it can trigger shame. That can be painful too

It really is a matter of conditioning in my estimation. This framing helps me understand a lot more clearly.

I'm not feeling much shame. I have been pretty vocal about this with friends as of late and I know how poorly my ex treated me. It has been more a mix of anxiety (could this be shame manifesting itself? I'm not sure, but I don't feel explicitly ashamed) and anger.

I think somewhere in the last year or so I forgot that I was worth something and never deserved that treatment in the first place. I guess hanging on to the friendship was a reason why I began to ignore my past experiences. I know better now. Strange. Even full well knowing what she did to me in the past I still tried to hang on to a connection... . 

To say you abused me is to break our silent and personal agreement and betray the deepest trust that we have with one another - that we share this mutual understanding.

To this day I still have a hard time saying she abused me.  Partially ego driven.  Partially driven by loyalty.  Partially driven by past messages that the term abuse is reserved for those with black eyes and broken bones.

In the end, when someone is treating you in a way that you do not want to be treated and will not stop when you ask, you are being abused.

I feel like I'm just starting to truly address this idea now. That the idea that this really revolves around the axis of 'when I say stop, you need to listen'—when this doesn't happen it is a core violation of trust. I didn't know back then that something was wrong with this either, or I did, but I didn't have the self-confidence to make it unacceptable.

I identify with what you said about how you grew up Joe. I think that my FOO plays a part in this too. My mom can be a bit controlling and my dad was emotionally absent most of the time. It led me to believe that most of what I said didn't matter, because my needs were mostly being taken care of my mother, who was stressed out from the consequences of enabling my father's behavior—and my sister could be a handful at times as well.

This is an amazing realization, but now that I think about I remember feeling like such a scapegoat when I was a kid, especially at gatherings with my mother's side of the family. 

[jhkbuzz]

Today I've been pondering a big question. It seems to me like I still can't make the connection internally that my BPDex actually was very emotionally abusive towards me for a year and some change. It's like a crucial piece of understanding and healing that I need is missing. I recognize the behaviors, and I know what abuse is (and I'm certainly committed to never being treated like this again), but I can't quite associate those actions (her actions) with her person.

When I think about it, I've never been able to do this over the course of a 4 year friendship/relationship. I don't want to give her the benefit of the doubt, and I don't feel that I do. So this is puzzling. She hurt me, but I can't seem to hold her accountable in my head for any sustained period of time. I've cut off contact and I don't ever plan on speaking to her again if I am able to, and I have a plan set up for what I will do if she tries to contact me.

So, why exactly can't I make this connection? Has anyone here felt similarly?

I know exactly how you feel.

I was in therapy for about 2 years after my (8 year) r/s ended. This is what I've come to (and by no means is everything crystal clear, but I'm pretty sure on this point):

My mom was abusive, both emotionally and physically. I received "mixed messages" about love and abuse when I was young; that a person who loved me could also abuse me at the same time.

I carried this into my r/s with my ex - and I still struggle with it to this day. Objectively I can identify it as abuse. If it was happening to someone else I could "name it" as abuse. But when it's coming from someone who "loves me" then everything gets very foggy.

It's probably something I will always have to be careful about in future relationships. My FOO has predisposed me to problems in this area.

[valet]

It is disheartening to know that because we were raised a certain way, we have to more on guard for ourselves. This is another frustration that I have that gets really difficult sometimes, because I think I'm in the clear at moments and then realize that these skills need to be practiced until they become second nature, relatively. That said, it's worth the work.

I'm having a hard time today... .I felt pretty good yesterday, but definitely settling into a moderate depression right now. I'm thinking its probably just a natural reaction on the timeline of events so far.

The thing that I'm struggling to wrap my mind around is how I am affected by this after I ended the friendship. When the relationship ended, it seemed like only 4-6 months before I started to feel really happy about myself all of the time. I haven't progressed the same here (it's been about 4 months and I'm just now experiencing what I did RIGHT after the breakup, emotionally and physically), but I also suppose that I've learned more painful lessons this time around, and I was perhaps still protected by a layer of denial back then. Can anyone speak to this?

[rfriesen]

The thing that I'm struggling to wrap my mind around is how I am affected by this after I ended the friendship. When the relationship ended, it seemed like only 4-6 months before I started to feel really happy about myself all of the time. I haven't progressed the same here (it's been about 4 months and I'm just now experiencing what I did RIGHT after the breakup, emotionally and physically), but I also suppose that I've learned more painful lessons this time around, and I was perhaps still protected by a layer of denial back then. Can anyone speak to this?

valet, I don't have any answers exactly, but I feel that again you've touched on something I'm going through as well. I first tried to end things with my ex 15 months ago. She became hysterical and angry and desperate and the whole range of emotions you can imagine and that I had never seen to that degree before. So I relented. We spent the next seven months in a miserable and painful world of me trying to show her how much I really did love and care for her, even though I repeatedly tried to end the romantic side of things. (Obviously, in hindsight, I wish I had had the courage to end things only once.) She had a final blow-up and told me she was done about 8 months ago. Since then we have mostly been in low contact, with her reaching out just enough to keep me believing maybe she did care about ending things on friendly terms.

So, basically, I was stuck in a mode of trying to show her I cared and would be there as a friend if she wanted that. And she would often either lash out or go silent or sometimes say how much she misses and loves me. I think I always assumed that when it all died down she would either go completely silent or show a genuine interest in being friends. Instead, I saw her last week for the first time in months and she kind of dismissed all the pain and anger and heartache she had expressed and now wanting just to have sex because she "really likes sex". I managed to turn her down, though it wasn't easy.

The sex with her was always amazing and it's been really hard to let go of. But I think what's really disturbed me is that, after all is said and done, she ultimately has zero interest in holding onto any fond memories of the relationship. I could more easily understand her not wanting to have any contact at all. It's hard to describe exactly what I find disturbing -- but there's something really dark about the kind of sexual relationship she's hinted at. When we were together, we could be extreme and aggressive and pretty wild sexually, but I always had such passionate, loving feelings for her. It was fun. When I saw her last week, she said one thing in particular about something we had done sexually and how hot she found it that I had "no concern" for her. Again, I have trouble articulating exactly what's bothering me now, but it's sort of like she's saying to me, "Yeah, I really cut into you and hurt you while you were saying all those things about caring for me and being there as a friend. I can see I hurt you, but can we stop worrying about whether it all meant anything. I don't care anyway -- can't we just admit that what we really want is nasty, even hateful sex?" She's texted me a few times since, along these lines, although sort of veiled and ambiguous.

Maybe I'm in a bit of a weird place after our first face-to-face communication in months, but it seems like she's taken the post-break-up interaction as a struggle between me trying to show her it all meant something and was a beautiful love affair at least for a while, and her trying to show me it all meant nothing and that she's going to prove it by tearing the mask down and showing me that I'd be willing to get off on degrading her sexually.

It's dark. Maybe I'm a little off in my interpretation of last week's interaction, but I don't think so. And I think why I'm so disturbed is the following. Before, I thought she was just so hurt by my ending the relationship that she wanted to hurt me back. I assumed eventually she would either let it go and disappear, or acknowledge that, hey, there were some really beautiful moments in there and even if we can't be friends, let's carry some fond memories. Guess I was still naive even after all the reading I've done here and everything I went through. Because now it seems like she just wants to prove I would hate-f**k her if that were on the table and then we could stop pretending there was ever any love involved.

Does that make sense? I have no idea how much of the above applies to your situation. But it's left me even more hurt than the end of the relationship, I think. She expressed so much pain and anger to me, and I worked so hard to show compassion and try to find resolution. I came to expect and accept that I would never have a normal sense of closure, but I didn't quite expect this. And of course I would be lying if I said I weren't still very sexually attracted to my ex. So it wasn't like I wasn't turned on and she knew that too. I resisted, but it's left me in a weird place for now. I really feel like she's taken as a challenge all the efforts I made to stay friendly -- as though it's a challenge for her to now prove I'm full of it and would hurt her if given the chance to do whatever I want sexually. Honestly, it's the darkest thing I've ever been through because the idea of sex with her is still incredibly exciting, and I'm not against rough sex or anything, but the whole darkness of the game she seems to be playing is messed up.

I don't know -- that's maybe a bit off-topic here. But I'm also finding this way of ending any possibility of friendship more disturbing even than the end of the relationship.

[rfriesen]

I'll just add one more thing. Until this past week, my ex had continued to express how much love and passion there had been between us in the beginning, how perfect it all was. She would then also lash out at me for ending it and either ignore or dismiss all my attempts to salvage a friendship or at least a civil ending. But this week, it's as if she suddenly decided to change her approach, basically suggesting it was never really anything more than kinky sex and that she was ready to drop any pretence that it was ever otherwise. I suppose in a sense I should have expected it, because it's a defence mechanism I've seen her use -- pretend that all she cares about is sex, then guys can't hurt her. That she would take it to such an extreme with me, after all this time ... .just leaves me incredibly sad.

[valet]

Wow. That is pretty twisted.

I can empathize with some of it though, in an inverse way. My ex ended things and wanted to be 'best friends for life', or something along those lines. It sounds strange to say this, but I thought that I would be able to do that one day. This was a long, long time ago, before I suspected that she might have been disordered in the way that I think she is now. Either way, what ended up happening is, she would run around with a different guy in tote every month, not tell me anything about it. When she wasn't seeing someone new, which was rare, she'd make these somewhat strange offers (that I found kind of suggestive and awkward in a way) that I come to her place and watch a movie or something. I always said no because I just didn't find her that attractive anymore, and frankly, I just didn't want to, but hell. Who knows what she was thinking? I had painted her as done with the relationship like a month after she broke up with me. But now I'm thinking the opposite, that she was looking for any warm body whatsoever, and if I had happened to take her up on the offer all of her previous thinking would have gotten flushed right down the toilet. And all this time I'm trying to maintain a genuine connection, when the reality was that she would barely respond, constantly change/cancel plans, and be otherwise unresponsive and not really worth the while to see when she actually did manage 'to find the time'. This was frustrating, but I rolled with it. I knew what the disorder was and I 'knew' how she ticked, so to speak, from my perspective in those moments. I thought that if I used the tools and set good boundaries with her, she would come around eventually.

She didn't, though. This is kind of funny to me for some reason: I was on a backpacking trip in the balkan's for a month and half this past spring, and I clearly remember sitting on this hostel balcony late at night, smoking these weird Macedonian off-brand lucky strikes with this beautiful lake in the backdrop... .and I just thought, 'I don't need this girl anymore. This is a waste of my time.' Still though, when I got back it was more of the same. I forgot about that instinct and figured that the fleetingness of it was just part of being on the road, experiencing new things, and meeting new people. But either way, I was still trying to prove myself.

I wonder now, why did I do that?

The only answer that I can think of is, I hadn't learned all I needed to yet. She was still busting my boundaries, or I hadn't learned to defend them yet. I'm not gonna bust my own kneecaps over this, but I should have ended the friendship the first time I met up with her post-breakup when she was like a ghost in the room (I think I posted about this here after it happened. I should find that thread). But I also hadn't bottomed out yet. There was still false hope, buried underneath the intellectual component that I had erected for myself. I needed to get to that dark place where the only option I had left to salvage the friendship was to confront her about how she treated me. And when I did she blamed me for it all. She told me, basically, 'I don't care about you and I don't owe you anything; you're making this a one-sided friendship by bringing up these issues. I am not still accountable for how I treated you in the past, even if it was never addressed by me.'

God, I hate her right now.  

[jhkbuzz]

But either way, I was still trying to prove myself.
I wonder now, why did I do that?

I asked myself the same question. Why did I try SO HARD? Why couldn't I see that it was abusive and simply walk away?

As it turns out, when my r/s with my ex started going south, it was a repeat of the dynamic I experienced with my mom - who was abusive and hard to please. That didn't stop me from spending most of my childhood trying to please her, however. And all of these ancient, child-like emotions ("I'll just try harder!" "I can make her happy!" "I must be the problem... ." "I know she loves me; I can fix this... ." were triggered with my ex - and we were off to the hellish races.

I didn't recognize that, as a very wise "2010" once posted, my ex was my "fata morgana" - a stand in for someone (mom) in my childhood. This was all "below the surface" for me. My compulsion to continually "try harder" in my r/s with my ex was a repeat performance; an attempt to fix something very painful from my childhood. But I couldn't recognize that I was embroiled in this dynamic when I was emotionally involved with my ex. It seemed self-evident at the time that "trying harder" with my ex was the right thing to do. I was unable to see any other options at that time.

From 2010: "Although painful, the failed relationship is necessary to learn from and expand on for personal growth.  The core wound can be repaired and healed if the childhood pattern is explored and understood. Who does this person remind you of? The answer will probably change several times until it returns to a ghost-like parent. Once you realize these feelings are familiar but repressed, you can begin to process of releasing them during the abandonment depression. That is, if you leave this person. Your other choice is to hang on and continue the fight.

There comes a time when we all have to realize that the relationship we are struggling with is due to our own wishful thinking for childhood acceptance. Just like in BPD, thoughts can become beliefs. When our beliefs are so strong - yet, unsuited to personal happiness, we must discard them and replace them with new beliefs. This is the bulk of your work in the aftermath of a failed relationship, especially with someone who cuts so deeply into your core wound. We must understand the reasons why we became involved with a dramatic and erratic person who had as many ideas about who we were as we had about them. Maybe who we were has changed in the aftermath and now we can see clearly what needs to mature.  The repressed pain is at the surface and hurts, but rather than repress it again - you've got to delve into it. You can't delve into pain while simultaneously searching for the good reflection from your Borderline partner. Borderline personality disorder is a persecution complex. All you are going to find is a professional victim. Let go.

Boundaries are necessary to distance ourselves from people who don't share our healthier beliefs or who might have (with their own unhealthy belief systems) taught us to disbelieve ourselves.  This means stopping the dysfunction and discovering the emotions and sadness within that really are being medicated with your anger. As children we weren't allowed to express disappointment. Now, we can. But the disappointment is posed to who you think you are, not who you think your partner is.  Your partner only mirrored your false self.  Your sadness needs to be allowed as you let go of outdated beliefs about who you are and turn your focus to your true persona, the one who is scared and alone. That child has a need to be understood and deserves a pat on the back. Stop being distracted by trying to fix a broken mirror. Help that child.

It all begins with letting go of trying to control others and turning the focus to ourselves."

[Reforming]

In my opinion most post relationship friendships are a minefield, but when there's a PD involved they can quickly become a kind of exquisite torture.

When I first started seeing my exes her exbf use to stay in regular contact. He had a habit of staying friends with his exes. But it was also clear that he was struggling to deal with the end of the relationship. I knew he was still emotionally involved but I didn't feel particularly threatened by it.  I did wonder why he was still trying to stay in contact after she'd treated him like s…t.

She continued to use him whenever she needed something, money, emotional support etc - behaving pretty exploitatively. Not pretty but he should have had more sense and more self respect

At the time I said to her if we break up I am never going to let you treat me like that and I meant it.

Years later when we were in couple counselling before the relationship ended she tried to float the idea of us staying close to help each other through the breakup. I'd seen her in action and I hadn't forgotten. I said no and our T agreed.

I took a lot of crap over the years but when things finally ended I went NC straight away.  I did this for myself. It was about self preservation and any contact was toxic.

She reached out a few times over the last few years but I haven't responded. If I revisit some of the things that she did I can still get angry I don't hate her now. I feel some compassion for her and hope she's ok but I don't trust her and I don't have any respect for her.

I still feel sad at times but that part of my life is over and the only person who can give me closure is me

The most important thing is to keep putting one foot in front of the other and try not to judge yourself for feeling anger, sadness or regret.

Reforming

[valet]

Lots of   s with these replies.

jhk: I think it was the same dynamic with my parents. Your post triggered a whole bunch of memories from back then. It didn't seem like it then, but I was always trying to put out some kind of perceived fire. Be it because I couldn't sit still at school, or getting a ton of chores done at home, there were a lot moments when I felt like I had to try harder. To achieve more.

This is why I moved out of my parents house when I was 19. I couldn't take the pressure anymore. It was just like, constant nagging from my mother, and my father shut himself away most of the day.

I've read that 2010 post before. It didn't sink in at the time like it is now. I think I get what was being said on an emotional level, rather than just an intellectual one. It's like finally getting to the top of a mountain that I've been climbing, but not being able to see the top the whole time nor have any perspective on where it might be. Really great reference and post. Thank you.

Reforming: I feel like that whole 'friendship' period was me looking for some excuse to go NC, but not having one that seemed valid enough. I was still being manipulated, and I fed the delusion because I still believed in that image of a post-relationship brother/sister type of bond with my ex. There was no room for the truth—I wouldn't allow it. But I knew how much it was hurting me the whole time, and figured I would endure.

What's strange is that I rationalized this belief using literature on the Kleinian paranoid/schizoid and depressive position(s). I figured, if I could withstand both forces, over time there would be a gradual integration of the two. In hindsight, this was just me ignoring that it would be impossible to reconcile her two halves in my mind, because her behavior did not make it fair on my psyche. It was a rigged match, so to speak. One that I would always lose. And I'm thinking that this is because... . it was such a core wound that relied heavily on my attachment style and how I was raised to keep festering. It fed itself.

A lot of it was guilt driven. If I just suddenly upped and stopped contact one day because it felt hard my thinking would have been 'get back to your plan and stick it out, this is a challenge that you can overcome, and you'd be hurting her (ex) a lot if you did this'. It was completely unfair on me, and she didn't help the situation by continuing to withhold the truth and not come clean about how things were going the last year we were together. She dug the hole, and I just jumped right into it because it felt like home.

I feel like a lot of my journey here so far has been a packing of sorts, but believing the whole time that I have already left the house and am half way around the globe. Now reality is settling in, and it feels like I just realized that I'm still sitting on my couch with my bags in hand. Time to start the real trip... .

Thanks for your words. This really feels like a huge weight off of my shoulders.

[jhkbuzz]

Lots of   s with these replies.

jhk: I think it was the same dynamic with my parents. Your post triggered a whole bunch of memories from back then. It didn't seem like it then, but I was always trying to put out some kind of perceived fire. Be it because I couldn't sit still at school, or getting a ton of chores done at home, there were a lot moments when I felt like I had to try harder. To achieve more.

This is why I moved out of my parents house when I was 19. I couldn't take the pressure anymore. It was just like, constant nagging from my mother, and my father shut himself away most of the day.

I've read that 2010 post before. It didn't sink in at the time like it is now. I think I get what was being said on an emotional level, rather than just an intellectual one. It's like finally getting to the top of a mountain that I've been climbing, but not being able to see the top the whole time nor have any perspective on where it might be. Really great reference and post. Thank you.

You're welcome.

There's lots I haven't figured out, and maybe I'll never figure it all out - but I really started to grow and heal when I began to understand my life on an 'emotional' rather than an intellectual level. I'm not sure I would have gotten there without therapy. Therapy was often a painful and uncomfortable process - but my therapist kept me safe as I walked through the fire, and began to reconcile the fact that I am a competent, independent adult who is sometimes driven by the needs of the sad, wounded child that lives inside me. I've begun to attend to that child.

P.S. I was almost 19 when I left home.

P.P.S. One of the things I discovered about myself is that my lack of compassion towards myself was a mirror of my mother's lack of compassion for me. I treated myself as harshly as she treated me. I'm changing that, too.  

[woundedPhoenix]

This is a very revealing thread. I had all the puzzle pieces already at hand but these posts have some key elements to how really lay them down and make them fit

P.P.S. One of the things I discovered about myself is that my lack of compassion towards myself was a mirror of my mother's lack of compassion for me. I treated myself as harshly as she treated me. I'm changing that, too.  

Yeah, i really cried an hour when i made that observation, that we not only suffered emotional neglect as a child but on top carry that attitude on towards ourselves in life AND look for partners who are garantueed to further sustain the state of emotional neglect.

And i am changing THAT too :-) We deserve that!

[valet]

You're welcome.

There's lots I haven't figured out, and maybe I'll never figure it all out - but I really started to grow and heal when I began to understand my life on an 'emotional' rather than an intellectual level. I'm not sure I would have gotten there without therapy. Therapy was often a painful and uncomfortable process - but my therapist kept me safe as I walked through the fire, and began to reconcile the fact that I am a competent, independent adult who is sometimes driven by the needs of the sad, wounded child that lives inside me. I've begun to attend to that child.

P.S. I was almost 19 when I left home.

P.P.S. One of the things I discovered about myself is that my lack of compassion towards myself was a mirror of my mother's lack of compassion for me. I treated myself as harshly as she treated me. I'm changing that, too.  

I think this is the key lesson to learn, if we are to discover anything about ourselves in the aftermath of any relationship with a person that lacks self-awareness. Boundaries are important. But what are boundaries? The thing that I take away is: I will not let myself be pushed off of my values without a reasonable dialogue and plenty of space to consider what I want. I've found that the most strengthening self-matraesque (ha) thing to say is, 'I can challenge others because I am equal to them, and my voice matters.'

When I show myself more respect, I am able to feel more. I don't default into the coping mechanisms that I learned when I was young which haven't benefitted me in life so much. I value my feelings. They are not the truth necessarily, but they are a part of reality that I enjoy greatly. It is nice to feel. It's what makes me human—and I'm proud of that.

So I need to protect it.