To what extent is it the disorder, and to what extent just a horrible person?

[Curiously1]

Nons who do not know about this disorder will just label them as bad people altogether to stay away from and are satisfied with that.
If everybody thought that way, nobody would care to understand them and just see them as bad news.
What distinguishes evil/bad character and the disorder?
Do you automatically assume a person who has done horrible things to have a disorder?
Can you separate the disorder from the person?

[drained1996]

ok... .I'll bite.

No, there is no separation... .the disorder is part of the person, and the person is part of the disorder.  

Nons who do not know about this disorder will just label them as bad people altogether to stay away from and are satisfied with that.

Most HEALTHY nons most likely will not get to see the bad/worst side of a borderline, thus could not label them as "bad" or "good"... .they will just notice the boundary issues earlier and exit stage left without too much commotion and will never know about the disorder.  
Why did we stay so long?  Why did we not take the necessary steps to protect ourselves?

Do you automatically assume a person who has done horrible things to have a disorder?

No, any and all of us make mistakes.  Now, if those mistakes became routine, and there was no sign of remorse or understanding... .yes, a good look into a disorder issue may be in order.  

My experience was, my BPD's were not horrible people, they simply suffered from a very serious mental illness that made them unable to function well in a healthy adult manner.  Having the illness was not their fault... .not willing to deal with those issues and try to change for the better... .that's on them.  It's something THEY will have to navigate for the rest of their life... .which was not for me... .

[valet]

I see where you're coming from... .often times society dictates a pwBPD's behavior as terrible, and thus label's them as a terrible person. I suppose that this is true in our relatively functioning environment, but the real truth is that they hurt people and themselves and don't know why they're in so much pain.

I think it's a useful skill to have compassion for everyone, regardless of their mental health status, etc. But the only way to achieve this level of compassion is to have compassion for ourselves when we need it. We cannot love others if we do not love and accept ourselves.

There is no such thing as an evil person. No one is bad. Everyone is trying to do good by someone or something. It's just that some people don't have the skills. This doesn't mean that we need to let people without the skills into our lives, but it's a useful exercise to extend ourselves and try to imagine what others must go through.

[Duped 1]

I sincerely feel mine truly is a horrible person. The awful things she would say even when she wasn't upset and the complete lack of remorse or apology. She would defend many of the idiotically cruel things she would say. Now if she was remorseful or apologetic I could understand it's the disorder but she is just one dark, selfish, hateful person.

[CooperD]

i would agree with 'duped', my experience with my BPD is that whilst she had a part of her that was nice (at least initially) she did things that I can only describe as sadistic/evil. She also seemed to orchestrate these for effect/plan them.  When those things come to dominate that persons behaviour does that not make them bad/evil) or at least they are evil towards the person that they have split black ?

Asking me to have sex with her to build intimacy and straight afterwards saying "that was rape" and im going to report you for raping me.  She knew by us having sex first there would be DNA evidence to make her story believable.  She never did report it but spent hours telling me she was going to do / phoning pharmasists for rape kits, looking on the internet for police stations and then leaving the property telling me she was on her way to the police. She saw my despair, hurt and fear and carried on with it for hours.

Flying 5,000 miles to work on our marriage having sent me screenshots of her flights and me booking a trip to Italy.  Collecting her at the airport - her kissing me, taking her to my parents home where she hugged them. Opening a bottle of champagne for her at her request to celebrate and then within an hour she stands smirking with a glass in her hand and tells me she has filed for divorce and then leaves the house and flies back to the US.  i hear nothing further from her beyond her threatening me with stalking/harrasment and that she will destroy my career if I so dare contact her again.   i would say that behaviour is evil as it is planned and designed to inflict severe pain and suffering.

[foggydew]

But why do they need to see people suffering? My uBPD person used to say sometimes that he didn't know why he felt he had to hurt, and he wished he could stop it. It often seems to me that when he is feeling particularly vindictive he doesn't have contact to closer friends or family - could this also be a way of trying to protect them from himself? Or that they are just too normal/nice to be interesting. Or they are too critical. Whatever, he is usually labeled as an unpleasant person.

[CooperD]

From my experience 'foggydew' the 'BPD spider'in my life had real problems as soon as someone had done anything to irk her. 

She would never forgive them (instead just completely cut them from her life), she would bad mouth them (i.e worst person in the world) and she would blame them entirely for the breakdown of the friendships/relationships.  I saw her do it with 'friends', 'work colleagues' and now myself.  Accepts no responsibility for how any of her words/actions influence what happens.

From this I found the 'BPD spider' also liked to take revenge and punish those who had get on her wrong side.   Maybe they like to see people suffering because it makes them feel better about their own pain knowing that someone else is miserable too or in the case of the 'BPD spider' in my life I think she actually sadistically enjoyed seeing me suffer (the only way I can explain the rape stuff/the divorce stuff).

[IamGrey]

There is no such thing as an evil person. No one is bad. Everyone is trying to do good by someone or something. It's just that some people don't have the skills. This doesn't mean that we need to let people without the skills into our lives, but it's a useful exercise to extend ourselves and try to imagine what others must go through.

Have you actually read some of the stories on here?

[beggarsblanket]

What distinguishes evil/bad character and the disorder?
Do you automatically assume a person who has done horrible things to have a disorder?
Can you separate the disorder from the person?

Some pwBPD may be evil, but BPD itself is not evil. I think of it not as a moral disturbance but as an emotional disturbance with moral consequences. If there are sometimes antisocial traits, that is another thing altogether.

Some pwBPD evidently overcome the disorder. I gather that it can take years, but a clinical distinction can be made between the presence and the absence of the disorder in the same person over time.

What's more, long-term dedication to therapy is evidence of the sufferer's awareness that something is seriously wrong. The question then is whether other pwBPD have such self-awareness and choose not to seek healing or whether their self-awareness is somehow impaired. And even if they are aware and do not act, does that make them evil? Why are they not acting? Is their volition or their executive function also impaired?

I still feel periods of anger toward my BPD ex, but I can't so far bring myself to think her evil. What I read of this disorder (e.g. from Joel Paris) recommends understanding, compassion, and skillful communication. Due to my own hurts and frailties, I can no longer be involved with my BPD ex, but there is a clear pattern in her behaviour, and it is one that I can forgive.

[joeramabeme]

What distinguishes evil/bad character and the disorder?

Can you separate the disorder from the person?

Hi Curiously - I think your question is misleading.  You are characterizing her behavior as "bad" or "evil" - that is your experience of her behavior. 

On the other hand, for her, it is a very effective coping mechanism to keep at bay the deep unresolved confusion and pain that she experienced at some earlier point in her life; very likely a much earlier period in her life when she did not have enough executive reasoning to make a choice between a healthy or unhealthy coping mechanism. 

Moreover, that coping style probably served her quite well when it was employed and as she got older started to compound and build upon itself.  As an adult, she cannot clearly distinguish her present relationships from the dynamics or emotions of the past.  Just like us, she yearns for a deep and meaningful attachment; but she also simultaneously must measure the efficacy of her approach in terms of how safe she feels; will I be abandoned or will I be enmeshed.  She is unlikely free enough to stay anchored in a trusting and loving relationship - unnamed and unattached fear personified.

Is that evil or bad?  I don't think so.  Words that come to my mind are sad, injured, painful, deeply wounded, lost etc. 

Unfortunately, many of us non's choose pwBPD because in some way this behavioral style resonates with us.  In my case, I have come to a greater understanding of how my childhood experiences made all her self-protecting behavior seem acceptable, or at least something that I could work through with her.

It is a hard pill to swallow; look at ourselves in the mirror and admit to having fostered an extremely chaotic relationship - but there it is.  I am not evil or bad either, just a guy who came through this experience with a deeper understanding of why I selected her and what not to do going forward - while it is very likely that she will simply repeat the same behaviors within another relationship and end up with the same results.

[Dutched]

Have you actually read some of the stories on here?

Isn’t this a shortcut taken?
Didn’t you fell in love with, in your perception, an amazing person?
Felt good and did you good, didn't it?

Until you saw some flaws and became aware of the whole package, the whole personality.
A good person with ‘evil’ characteristics.
“Evil’ characteristics because of genes, abuse, upbringing so coping behaviour, maybe even a disorder?

And that in a person you felt in love with…

[boatman]

On the other hand, for her, it is a very effective coping mechanism to keep at bay the deep unresolved confusion and pain that she experienced at some earlier point in her life; very likely a much earlier period in her life when she did not have enough executive reasoning to make a choice between a healthy or unhealthy coping mechanism.

Moreover, that coping style probably served her quite well when it was employed and as she got older started to compound and build upon itself.  As an adult, she cannot clearly distinguish her present relationships from the dynamics or emotions of the past.  Just like us, she yearns for a deep and meaningful attachment; but she also simultaneously must measure the efficacy of her approach in terms of how safe she feels; will I be abandoned or will I be enmeshed.  She is unlikely free enough to stay anchored in a trusting and loving relationship - unnamed and unattached fear personified.

This logic could be used to justify just about any evil behavior in the context of the perpetrator "not knowing any better" or "trying to cope". Could you imagine telling a rape victim that the person that raped them was merely using a coping mechanism? My ex is a despicable, evil predator that deserves no special consideration such as this. Period.

[Duped 1]

I completely agree boatman! Anyone who can continue to be so hurtful and not even apologize or acknowledge or attempt to improve isn't justified in any way regardless of their history.

[IamGrey]

Isn’t this a shortcut taken?
Didn’t you fell in love with, in your perception, an amazing person?
Felt good and did you good, didn't it?

Until you saw some flaws and became aware of the whole package, the whole personality.
A good person with ‘evil’ characteristics.
“Evil’ characteristics because of genes, abuse, upbringing so coping behaviour, maybe even a disorder?

And that in a person you felt in love with…

Em, what makes you think I fell in love with my ex?

[IamGrey]

I completely agree boatman! Anyone who can continue to be so hurtful and not even apologize or acknowledge or attempt to improve isn't justified in any way regardless of their history.

Exactly.

[once removed]

good/bad/evil/angel, these are all black and white terms. people are more complex.

it is virtually a given that all of us have experienced a level of abusive treatment from our exes. it is natural, when hurt or abused, to rail against our abuser - for a time.

painting the ex black - healthy or unhealthy: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=149594.0

[RippedTorn]

The behavior seems evil to us. The seeming lack or remorse is evil to us. The anger tantrums and nasty name calling over what seems like trivial things is evil to us. All of these could seem to be evil coming from a person who is not mentally ill. But then most "normal" people would not do these things. Pushed to a limit, even I can do some of these. The problem is that the BPD person does not SEEM to us to be pushed. We just triggered him or her with what we think is trivial behavior - anything that takes the attention away from them and makes them feel unloved. Since they need this attention from us or others almost constantly, they view our behavior or lack of it like we do being pushed to the wall. The borderlines are just so sensitive and needy that the slightest slight can make them behave showing what we would call evil behavior. The bottom line is whether we think they are evil to the core or not does not matter. That is a theoretical issue. What matters to us is that we are on the receiving end of the behaviors which is emotional abuse because we did nothing to JUSTIFY it. If you beat your wife, she deserves to respond with anger. If you turned on TV, called a friend, spoke to a woman in the hall, or any other non-threatening thing, you don't deserve to be punished. And therein lies the difference. Her treatment of you would be judged to be evil by any normal person because it is out of bounds for what seems fair and justified. A judge ruled in my favor issuing a domestic violence restraining order because he viewed the evidence as emotional abuse - unjustified and unfair response by her given the circumstances.

[joeramabeme]

Could you imagine telling a rape victim that the person that raped them was merely using a coping mechanism?

You are saying that you were raped?  

You fought, kicked, screamed and did everything in your power to prevent this abuse from happening to you but were powerless to prevent it?  

Or did you willingly go along with it; ignoring the warning signs and red flags the whole way through and when you got an undesired outcome you then cry rape?

[bus boy]

Great topic, great replies. I believe there is disordered people and bad or evil people. Maybe some people have a cross of each or as someone posted maybe genes. I've head many stories growing up, about people who could do things. They were said to have a bad eye. They could look at your horse and say something and next day it would be dead or lame, look at your barn, say what a nice barn your building and it would burn or if you had a nice car and someone with a bad eye made comment or touched it something would happen to it or someone would get killed in it. This all sounds like crazy talk but there are so many true events of this nature. That could be some kind of evil at work, if you wish to believe. Now my Xw, I think a BPD or NPD is at work plus genes. On Xw mothers side was sexual abuse, I feel Xw disorder came from sex abuse. On Xw fathers side, her father has a dirty streak in him. Xw has a spiteful dirty streak in her, she is an emotionally abusive manipulator and lier. She said so many horrible things about people, my family and me. If you look at her the wrong way, your done. Xw father is sneaky, so is Xw. With different people different things could be at play.

[elfyguy]

I don't think borderlines are evil or bad. Each of us have our own logical sphere and ethical guideline - we are, in essence, always trying to be the good guy. Yes, we will usually have some objective similarities, but being different doesn't necessitate bad. I think that many borderlines have this urge, this addictive urge, which surpasses any reasonable judgement they may hold. They even need to justify their actions so they are in line with their coping mechanisms E.G. before I left, she was constantly blaming me for everything in order to make herself feel better.

Was she evil or bad by doing this? No, I don't think so. Her urge to settle her turbulent emotions overshadowed any emotional growth and objective thought. She, in a way, had to build her logical sphere around her BPD and justify her own unhealthy behaviour in order to cope with her addiction(use any means to not feel abandoned or bad).

In other words, she's an addict. Most healthy people stay away from unhealthy people, which doesn't mean they don't care. It just means they know who they should invest their emotion in: the person who reciprocates in kind, and does not always want more or have ulterior motives.

[valet]

Have you actually read some of the stories on here?

I see what you're saying. I'm going to toss the ball back your way—this topic is worth the conversation.

So say I decided that I wanted to be an evil person from now on. How would I go about doing that knowing that my parents raised me with certain values (some of which remain totally undiscovered by me to this day)?

I could try to be as evil as I wanted to, yet in order to reach my goal I'd have to remember every single experience that I've ever had and then choose to ignore any good I've ever done. This means that I would feel no guilt or shame about treating others poorly, because I would have already processed the good to its fullest extent and then actively chosen to completely ignore any affect those moments had on me.

Does this situation sound possible?

[boatman]

You are saying that you were raped? 

You fought, kicked, screamed and did everything in your power to prevent this abuse from happening to you but were powerless to prevent it? 

Or did you willingly go along with it; ignoring the warning signs and red flags the whole way through and when you got an undesired outcome you then cry rape?

Actually, I was sexually abused as a child and there wasn't any kicking or screaming. Using the logic of your argument here, does that mean I should hold myself responsible for the trauma I suffered as a child?

[joeramabeme]

Actually, I was sexually abused as a child and there wasn't any kicking or screaming. Using the logic of your argument here, does that mean I should hold myself responsible for the trauma I suffered as a child?

Sorry to hear about your childhood experience.  You did not have a choice then. You do today.

[ArleighBurke]

This is a pet topic of mine! Let's start with this question:

If a person sleepwalks, and in a sleepwalk they murder someone else - are they responsible?

I think there are many things that shape a persons behaviours. Parental values, life experiences, mental illness etc. At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter what made you you, but it matters what you do. I think there are actually 2 separate inputs here
    1: are you aware of something, or know it's "wrong"; and
    2: can you control it.

"Punishment" is aimed at changing someone's behaviour. This is only useful if they can control their actions. "Protection" is aimed at making sure others are not harmed by what you do. Sending someone to jail for a crime is a combination of both.

So having 2 separate inputs gives 4 different situations:

1. I know it's wrong, but I can't control it. eg I murdered someone in my sleep. I know murder is wrong, but I can't control what I do in my sleep. I should not be punished, because a punishment is trying to change behvaviour, but I already know my behaviour is wrong. But there needs to be protection - a way to protect others so this doesn't happen again.

2. I know it's wrong and I can control it. So it was a choice to do it. Punishment makes sense - trying to force me to change my behaviour. Protection also makes sense - protect others from me doing it again.

3. I don't know it's wrong, and I can't control it. Punishment makes no sense because they don't know it's wrong. But there needs to be a consequence to protect others. (If you educate them it's wrong, then when they reoffend it'll be cat 1)

4. I don't know it's wrong, but if I did then I'd be able to control it. Punishment doesn't make sense - why punish someone for something they don't know is wrong? Education makes sense so they know it's wrong. They are probably not going to do it gain, so no protection is required. (However if they do reoffend then it's now cat 2).

The question about a BPD then becomes - are they AWARE what they do is wrong, and are they able to CONTROL it? This then puts them into one of these 4 categories.

My belief is that they are cat3 - they don't know their behaviour is wrong, and they can't control it. If you try to show them it's wrong, they will never believe you, so they remain in cat3.

[CooperD]

Arleigh - I like the 4 different categories however would you not agree that it does vary depending on the BPD. Some of their behaviours could fall into different categories.

My BPD for example would in my opinion fit in category 2 with many of her actions - she knew what she was doing and could control it.

For example when she threatened to falsely accuse me of rape - she enticed me to have sex with her so it would bring us closer in her words, straight after she said to me "that was rape" and then spent the next 7 hours preparing to go to the police to report me. Phoning a pharmacist in my presence to ask for a rape kit, telling me how when she reported me it would cost me my career etc.  I have it all on audio recordings.  She did know what she was doing and she could control it but she chose not to do because she wanted to punish me/hurt me etc because her BPD had split me black and I had become her enemy.

[ArleighBurke]

She did know what she was doing and she could control it

... .yes - but did she know it was WRONG?

Was she just doing what she needed to do in order to survive? Did she believe that all her actions were quite justified given the circumstances?

If so, then she didn't know it was "wrong"... .

[boatman]

My belief is that they are cat3 - they don't know their behaviour is wrong, and they can't control it. If you try to show them it's wrong, they will never believe you, so they remain in cat3.

When you say "they can't control it", what do you mean? I have yet to meet, nor do I think exists, one person on this planet that can't control his/her actions. And it is the actions of people, specifically my exgf that constitute as evil and malicious. In some people, including my ex, these evil actions are so frequent and so deep that their entire character is flawed and evil. The question of whether or not the victim has a choice to be present for the trauma is not relevant to the question of whether or not the behavior/person is evil.

[ArleighBurke]

From the original post:

If everybody thought that way, nobody would care to understand them and just see them as bad news.

I understand a lion only eats me because I am food to it. Understanding *may* lead to compassion, but the result is the same. I still don't want to be next to it!

The only difference (to me) whether it's the disorder or their underlying personality is whether I think they can change. If they can't change, then it's irrelevant.

[stimpy]

Arleigh, I like this way of thinking.

So did my ex know that some of things she did were wrong. I think not. I believe she rationalised her crappy behaviour towards me using the the following logic

1) She's unhappy, so I must have done something wrong, so she is right to punish me.

2) I stood up for myself and my boundaries, but she is perfect, so I must be over sensitive and therefore wrong, so it is right that she refuses to argue and punishes me by telling me to get out of the house.

3) I'm not perfect, so that is a failure, so I must be wrong, so it is right that I should be punished.

4) I got too close to her emotionally, so she dyregulated and she dumped me. But she doesn't really know why she dumped me, so it must be that I have done something wrong, so she is right to punish me after she dumped me.

So the concept of right and wrong get totally muddled up if the value system that is being used is that of a pwBPD.

I believe my ex did want to do what was right, it's just that her right/wrong was so black/white and harsh that it ended up hurting me, and destroying the relationship.

Also, twice, I'd say I showed her quite clearly how wrong her actions were, just twice. Result - disassociation/dysregulation/irrational behaviour/staring/zoning out. Very very scary.

As for control, I'd say not much. She was impulsive and even knew it - she told me early on that she was unpredictable. Ain't that the truth.

 

[ArleighBurke]

When you say "they can't control it", what do you mean?

Good question... .

I have a friend who, when she separated from her husband, had her father-in-law strangle her until she passed out (because he though she was taking their grandchild away). In court, he got off because he said he was "temporarily overcome" with rage, and of course he would never strangle anyone.

To me, that's worse than if he was fully aware. If he was fully aware, then perhaps a punishment would prevent him from doing it again. But if he was "unable to control himself", then what prevents that from happenning again?

I also like my sleepwalking example of not being able to control it... . 
 
I guess it doesn't really matter in this context, because the driver is that they don't know their actions are wrong, and the consequence is the same whether they can "control it" or not.