Dropped on my head, left without a home and daughter

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Hi all, this is my first post on this forum (or any other related to BPD) and I'm going through a very hard time. I'm a 49 year old U.S. citizen (male) and live in Germany. I've been with my undiagnosed BPD girlfriend for four years. We have a 1 1/2 year old daughter together (unplanned on my part).

It has been tough the last two years. I have two almost-grown daughters from a previous marriage (15 and 17) and go back to the U.S. to visit them occasionally.

This has created INTENSE jealousy and rage in my BPD partner. Each time I go to visit (two or three times a year) my older daughters, my BPD partner basically kicks me out of our apartment. Most of my trips are planned for two to three weeks, but extend to two months at a time because my BPD partner won't let me come home. I stay with friends and family in the U.S. while I negotiate with her to "allow me" back home (the apartment is in her name), knowing that things will be better after I return. And they usually are for a while. Until I need to fly to the U.S. again.

I'm now in the States after having left early October. This was agreed-upon by my BPD girlfriend and myself so I could gather documents for our daughter's U.S. Citizenship application, for me to vote, look for a new remote job (I'm a developer) and get a new German visa. And of course for me to visit my older daughters again (but I didn't mention this to my BPD partner).  The plan was for me to be gone three weeks.

But the same thing happened after two weeks: my BPD girlfriend became more and more unhinged and ranted and raved at me for never "being supportive" of our young daughter (even though my girlfriend doesn't work - she's a stay-at-home Mom). This is ridiculous. I am totally supportive and a very active Dad; supportive financially as well as time and attention-wise.

As always, the plan was for me to return after three weeks. This time she said there is NO way I'm coming home, said she changed the locks on the doors, took me off my daughter's Kindergarten pick-up list and won't let me Skype with my young daughter. I think she's jealous because I'm such a great Dad (her only compliment to me) and sees how excited my daughter is to see over Skype.

Bottom line: I am kicked out on the street (while I'm in a foreign country) and she has now cut off ALL contact between me and our shared daughter and said the relationship is over and that she wants me out.

And here is something interesting: her "shift" this time happened right after I told her my best friend here was diagnosed with stage three cancer (someone she knows). Until then everything was okay, and as soon as I told her my friend had cancer she kicked me out. Very odd.

After this happened I said I will come back to Germany and get my own place close by so I can see my daughter and be an active Dad in her life. I said I will be back before Christmas and would like to schedule time so we can share our daughter through the Christmas season. She said we could "talk about it when I get back".

Two days later she informed me that she will be taking our daughter on a "vacation" for 10 days through ALL of Christmas: Dec 22nd to Dec 30th. She refuses to tell me where she plans to go, who she is going with or what she plans on doing. I have a feeling she is going to Turkey with a close female friend.

It feels to me this is her way to injure me since she knows I love my daughter so much and planned to spend Christmas with her. She refuses to answer my questions about where she is going. She also informed me she finally got psychological counseling and that I am "so sick". (projection)

Finally, yesterday she could not find our daughter's passport. She texted me and accused me of "stealing" it. This is ridiculous. I didn't "steal" our daughter'/ German passport and never would. I said "no, of course not".

Then she said because of me "stealing" our daughter'S passport, "she doesn't trust me" and will make sure if I come back that I won't be able to spend time with my daughter unsupervised. She also said she will report this to the police and the Jugenamt (child services)!  This is insane.

My BPD girlfriend has now blocked ALL communication with me and won't answer the phone, has blocked me over text, email, everything. I have no access to my daughter.

I don't know what to do. If it's true that she reported me to the police I don't want to get off the plane after landing in Germany and be arrested. On the other hand, it's incredibly painful for me to not see my daughter.

Thanks for listening.

[codependable]

Hi all, this is my first post on this forum (or any other related to BPD) and I'm going through a very hard time. I'm a 49 year old U.S. citizen (male) and live in Germany. I've been with my undiagnosed BPD girlfriend for four years. We have a 1 1/2 year old daughter together (unplanned on my part).

It has been tough the last two years. I have two almost-grown daughters from a previous marriage (15 and 17) and go back to the U.S. to visit them occasionally.

This has created INTENSE jealousy and rage in my BPD partner. Each time I go to visit (two or three times a year) my older daughters, my BPD partner basically kicks me out of our apartment. Most of my trips are planned for two to three weeks, but extend to two months at a time because my BPD partner won't let me come home. I stay with friends and family in the U.S. while I negotiate with her to "allow me" back home (the apartment is in her name), knowing that things will be better after I return. And they usually are for a while. Until I need to fly to the U.S. again.

I'm now in the States after having left early October. This was agreed-upon by my BPD girlfriend and myself so I could gather documents for our daughter's U.S. Citizenship application, for me to vote, look for a new remote job (I'm a developer) and get a new German visa. And of course for me to visit my older daughters again (but I didn't mention this to my BPD partner).  The plan was for me to be gone three weeks.

But the same thing happened after two weeks: my BPD girlfriend became more and more unhinged and ranted and raved at me for never "being supportive" of our young daughter (even though my girlfriend doesn't work - she's a stay-at-home Mom). This is ridiculous. I am totally supportive and a very active Dad; supportive financially as well as time and attention-wise.

As always, the plan was for me to return after three weeks. This time she said there is NO way I'm coming home, said she changed the locks on the doors, took me off my daughter's Kindergarten pick-up list and won't let me Skype with my young daughter. I think she's jealous because I'm such a great Dad (her only compliment to me) and sees how excited my daughter is to see over Skype.

Bottom line: I am kicked out on the street (while I'm in a foreign country) and she has now cut off ALL contact between me and our shared daughter and said the relationship is over and that she wants me out.

And here is something interesting: her "shift" this time happened right after I told her my best friend here was diagnosed with stage three cancer (someone she knows). Until then everything was okay, and as soon as I told her my friend had cancer she kicked me out. Very odd.

After this happened I said I will come back to Germany and get my own place close by so I can see my daughter and be an active Dad in her life. I said I will be back before Christmas and would like to schedule time so we can share our daughter through the Christmas season. She said we could "talk about it when I get back".

Two days later she informed me that she will be taking our daughter on a "vacation" for 10 days through ALL of Christmas: Dec 22nd to Dec 30th. She refuses to tell me where she plans to go, who she is going with or what she plans on doing. I have a feeling she is going to Turkey with a close female friend.

It feels to me this is her way to injure me since she knows I love my daughter so much and planned to spend Christmas with her. She refuses to answer my questions about where she is going. She also informed me she finally got psychological counseling and that I am "so sick". (projection)

Finally, yesterday she could not find our daughter's passport. She texted me and accused me of "stealing" it. This is ridiculous. I didn't "steal" our daughter'/ German passport and never would. I said "no, of course not".

Then she said because of me "stealing" our daughter'S passport, "she doesn't trust me" and will make sure if I come back that I won't be able to spend time with my daughter unsupervised. She also said she will report this to the police and the Jugenamt (child services)!  This is insane.

My BPD girlfriend has now blocked ALL communication with me and won't answer the phone, has blocked me over text, email, everything. I have no access to my daughter.

I don't know what to do. If it's true that she reported me to the police I don't want to get off the plane after landing in Germany and be arrested. On the other hand, it's incredibly painful for me to not see my daughter.

Thanks for listening.

[Moselle]

codependable,

I'm sorry for your predicament, and welcome to the site. I can empathise in a very real way with your story. Mine has such similar elements, silent treatment, threats, police, lies.

It is all too familiar and as part of the family here you will not need to explain - we understand the pain.

What is your intention? To work on the relationship or to secure access to your child?

Again welcome  

[Mutt]

Hi  codependable,

Bottom line: I am kicked out on the street (while I'm in a foreign country) and she has now cut off ALL contact between me and our shared daughter and said the relationship is over and that she wants me out.

Wow. She does not have a lot of empathy. I'm sorry that you're going through this.

Have you made a call to a L? ( lawyer )

[codependable]

Thanks Moselle and Mutt,

My mind / heart is so scrambled I don't even know the best course of action right now.  My first instinct is to fly back to Germany, get in front of her and talk some sense into her.  But I'm reluctant to do so because of the threat of police involvement for something I didn't do.  It is, after all, a foreign country and I don't fully understand their laws (I speak a bit of German) and processes.  I'm in the dark and therefore, somewhat powerless position there.

Before I left things were okay and getting better.  We are (were?) engaged (she wore the ring I got her every day) and committed to working on our relationship.  We both knew we had to get counseling for the sake of our daughter. 

However, the threats of filing false police charges are serious.  My normal tendency (as the 'fixer' / 'everything will be okay' would be to ignore the threat and try to work through it.  She's much better in person and I can usually calm her down.  But after reading Dr. T's site Shrink4Men.com she lists threats of police reports as a "final red flag" and relationship deal breaker - no questions asked.  I'm devastated. 

Thanks for your support... .

[Mutt]

Hi codependable,

I was charged with false accusations and I had to wait 8 months until I had to go to court. We were living under the same roof, I had never heard of BPD at that time and if I look back, being split black for several months make sense. That's enough about me.

As always, the plan was for me to return after three weeks. This time she said there is NO way I'm coming home, said she changed the locks on the doors, took me off my daughter's Kindergarten pick-up list and won't let me Skype with my young daughter. I think she's jealous because I'm such a great Dad (her only compliment to me) and sees how excited my daughter is to see over Skype.

After this happened I said I will come back to Germany and get my own place close by so I can see my daughter and be an active Dad in her life. I said I will be back before Christmas and would like to schedule time so we can share our daughter through the Christmas season. She said we could "talk about it when I get back".

What is sad is that your D is in the middle of this. This isn't fair, it's denying reasonable access to your child and possibly kidnapping. I'm not a lawyer and I can't offer you legal advice. If it were me, I just wouldn't take the chance with getting in trouble because I may not have access with my child. I shared my experience with you, I was trying to talk sense to my wife, I told her that I was the sole bread winner in the house and if I faced jail time, it would affect everyone in the family, I had never see someone as stubborn as her, I was split black.

I know that it's tough not seeing your D, she's young and you want to soak as much of that in before she gets older but you also have to play the long game. I'll give you the link with for custody and divorce board, share with members that have gone through this before you https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?board=10.0

[codependable]

Thanks Mutt

[Mutt]

Thanks Mutt

You're not alone. Hang in there.

[PFCI]

I think you really need to consult a lawyer, too.  A German lawyer, who is familiar with the law there.  She seems ready to go to any length to get what she wants, so you need to know the facts regarding what she can and can't do with your daughter, and your position in Germany regarding any false accusations she might make. 

Be prepared and stay safe.

[formflier]

Have you made a call to a L? ( lawyer )

My general advice is to limit communication with her to what you can do that is "healthy" (we can help with that)

Negotiating and begging is not healthy.

My gut says you are better off to travel back now... .rather than wait for your gf's "permission".  I doubt she changed the locks.

That being said... .view everything through the lens of the legal system.  If you haven't talk to a German L... .do so immediately.

FF

[Grey Kitty]

Ugh, this is a really tough situation.

Q: How much of the horrible stuff she's doing, saying she did, and/or threatening to do is new escalation?

This time she said there is NO way I'm coming home, said she changed the locks on the doors, took me off my daughter's Kindergarten pick-up list and won't let me Skype with my young daughter... .

Bottom line: I am kicked out on the street (while I'm in a foreign country) and she has now cut off ALL contact between me and our shared daughter and said the relationship is over and that she wants me out.

You know her, and prior behavior is a good indication of what to expect in the future. If she's said similar things before and you've gone back (after waiting another month or two for her to wind down) and all has been better before, expecting something similar is reasonable on your part.

If this is a new level beyond what has happened before, and especially if every trip has been a bit worse when you got back, you can expect things to be worse when you get back.

Some pwBPD will threaten to call police/authorities on you. Some will threaten to make false allegations to get you arrested. Some make all kinds of idle threats. Other pwBPD will actually DO these things. They have common characteristics, but they are individuals.

You know her... .what do you expect when you return?

*IF* you see any chance she will take legal actions against you, talk to a German lawyer now, before you schedule your trip back. I second Mutt's recommendation that you post on the legal board here, no matter how likely you think it is!

Side note: I'd take any claim that this kind of threat is a "final red flag" with a grain of salt. It absolutely needs to be taken seriously on your part, yes--no doubt there. I'm unfamiliar with shrink4men.com, but such absolute statements make me question how helpful it will be. Or perhaps how helpful some parts of it are.

[formflier]

I'm unfamiliar with shrink4men.com, but such absolute statements make me question how helpful it will be. Or perhaps how helpful some parts of it are.

I've looked over the site before and didn't find it helpful.  There is a "tone" about the site of "standing up" to pwBPD... .or perhaps "looking down on them".  Really hard to describe.

Yes... .sometimes you need to stand up to them... but... .the "battlefield" is their feelings.  They are people that experience things really strongly.  If you can get to or stay in that place in your head... .then you can usually validate much better... .and calm things. 

I didn't find anything like that on the shrink site. 

Anyway... .my number 1 recommendation is to talk to a German lawyer.

FF

[codependable]

Thanks all. She's not answering any of my calls, emails and has blocked me on texts. This has happened before, but only for a day or so. It has been a week now. This feels like a "final discard" described by so many others. It feels different.

She also mentioned that she "finally got a counselor and the counselor said you are really sick" (projection on her part).  She feels abandoned and is seeking out a third party to validate her feelings and - of course - place me in the role of the bad guy (as is her pattern). I asked if she discussed HER behavior in the relationship with this new counselor. She scoffed at that, dodged the question and flipped the issue back to me, countering with "and my counselor thinks you're dangerous".

Not sure if the counselor really said this or not, but this is ridiculous. I have never laid a hand on her in anger, ever. She is the one who has hit, pushed and slapped me in the past.  This behavior from her, thankfully, is rare. But she knows I would never do anything to hurt her.

Also, a few weeks ago she said she was going to call the Jugenamt (child services office) and request financial support from them. I told her since I am already giving her financial support (I pay for everything), they would put me on a blacklist as a deadbeat Dad and come after me. She said she would tell the Jugenamt that she "doesn't know where the father is" so she could get money from them and everything would be fine for me.  She's trying to scam the system by selling me out...

I begged her not to do this. I explained if she did, I wouldn't be able to come back into the country until I had cleared my good name... .and the way the system works in Germany it could be a long time.  It might mean I wouldn't see my daughter for six or more months.  Thankfully, my BPD has sort of dropped this idea. And every time I ask her if she had gone to the Jugenamt, she replies, "That's all you care about, isn't it?  No I haven't. Not yet".

She leaves it hanging out there as a threat.

But the introduction of a counselor / third party is new. And it troubles me. I have begged her to go to counseling with me for years now, and although she has been open to it, she has dragged her feet. When she told me she this new counselor, she said, "I've had this counselor for a while now" and that "it has been very, very hard.  But I've made my decision and everything is fine now".  In her world, "a while" probably means two or three sessions.

I said I was proud she got a counselor and offered to join in sessions when I returned home.  She said I could not join her sessions (of course because she knows I would call her out) and she would not give me the name of her counselor.

The next day she texted me and said, "We are fine (my daughter and her). I don't want to have contact with you right now. Please respect that. Live your life in LA and at least be a Dad to your two older daughters".

(This is a reference to my two older daughters in LA from a previous marriage who I visit two times per year on their birthdays - and which infuriates my BPD girlfriend and causes her to rage).

I replied that since she and I have a child together, we can't (unfortunately) go full no contact.  I have been calling, texting and emailing for a week now with no answer.  The only thing I've heard from her was that absurd text accusing me of "stealing" our daughter's passport.

I agree with your suggestions that I should get a lawyer. It feels like she's setting me up or trying to drive me out of my young daughter's life with some "pre-emptive" strikes while I'm out of the country and make it difficult for me to fight back and come back.

Does this sound like a final discard to you guys? 

[formflier]

Dude... .this sucks.

In the future, if you get a chance to communicate, "begging" is not the right thing to do. 

It does NOT sound like final discard.  It sounds like she understands how to play you... .and has turned up the volume on that...

It is your job to "play" a different game by different rules.

It is also your job to retain a german lawyer.  Do you have one yet?

FF

[codependable]

In the future, if you get a chance to communicate, "begging" is not the right thing to do.

What is defined as "begging" and what IS the proper way to communicate in a situation like this?

Thanks

[formflier]

What is defined as "begging" and what IS the proper way to communicate in a situation like this?

Thanks

My guess is that you are using the term begging in your posts, that you are using it in it's "common" use.

fictional example:

Her:  "I'm kicking you out and you will never see your daughter again.  I've emailed all your friends on facebook and told them you are a looser dad and a horrible lover."

example  "Please baby... .think of our relationship and our daughter.  Please let me come home.  I'll try harder to be a better lover and Daddy.  Give us one more chance."

potential "good response"

"I need to go now, it's difficult to communicate with threats between us.  I'll reach out to you tomorrow."

FF

[Grey Kitty]

Ugh, you are in a tough spot, and I really think you need to understand the legal issues to make tough choices.

It sounds like she makes threats and blows up at you... .and likely she didn't do all she says she did, but you never know.

Telling a licensed counselor about abuse or violence can require mandatory reporting (No idea about German laws!). Her telling the counselor that you are "dangerous" may have started a domestic violence case against you. If she did say things, I'd bet that it is mostly false, or leaving out parts that make her look far worse than you do, etc... .and yes, this will probably come out eventually, but spending time in jail while it is sorted out sounds like no fun.

Also dealing with Jugenamt with charges of non-support sounds equally unfun!

In your shoes I wouldn't return to Germany without knowing how badly these things could go for you, how long they would take to straighten out, and what sorts of things you absolutely cannot afford to say to law enforcement, without consequences. Both for yourself and your girlfriend--If she does something truly illegal and egregious, like perjury to get you arrested, or worse, there are legal consequences for her... .you may have to let her face that, but I'd hate to see it happen just because you didn't understand the legal weight of one phrase you used with law enforcement!


You talk about how disturbing it is to have her talking to the counselor, and telling you (more-or-less) that you are horrible and the counselor backs her up.

First off, you aren't hearing her conversations with the counselor, and a good counselor wouldn't say such things. Most likely she's not repeating accurately what the counselor says. If the counselor is good, the counselor is trying to build a working relationship with her by listening without judging or contradicting, despite seeing through your gf's distortions and lies. Or the counselor isn't very good, and is snowed by her. And in that case, as therapy continues, the counselor is more likely to see through things, but you really don't know.

Second, this is really common BPD behavior. It is called triangulation. She's making herself the victim, making you the persecutor, and making the counselor the rescuer. Even people who don't have BPD can easily fall into doing this.

[codependable]

FF - thank you for that good example of how to speak in a situation like this. I've been "begging" if that's the definition. Here's an example:

"And now you're going to LIE to the Jugenamt and say I don't help you with any money - when you KNOW that's not true. And I won't be able to see our daughter for a long, long time until I defend myself and clear that up. You're pushing me out of her life. Do you understand that?"

This is how I respond usually to get her to see reason. Maybe in this case it worked because she backed off her promise to go to the Jugenamt for non-payment, but I do see your point.

I will contact a German lawyer first thing tomorrow to start getting my ducks in a row. Chances are, she's bluffing and trying to use these threats and silent treatment to pull me back in, but I agree that until I know for sure where the process is, it's probably a bad idea to go back.

I really should have seen this coming. She has an older daughter from a previous marriage who, at age 14, chose to live with her father. She left my BPD girlfriend about six months before I met her. I think my BPD gf is scared to death of losing OUR daughter. I know there was a lot of strife, juvenile delinquency, running away from home, etc. with her older daughter when she lived with my BPD girlfriend. A couple years after leaving my gf, her daughter "sued" to take away any remaining custodial rights she had.  Her Dad was granted full custody. My BPD gf stopped speaking to her older daughter when that happened about two years ago.  I will ask a lawyer if any of that case can be used in my situation as leverage.

[codependable]

Also, what is the best way to get through her silent treatment? This is the first time she has gone past a few days. I would like to speak to her to gain more insight about what is happening there.  This would be very helpful (if she tells me the truth) for any legal moves I have to make.

She is not answering emails, answering her multiple phones and has blocked me over text as well. This is really troubling because in the past she might have gone dark for a day or two, but it now it feels like the new "counselor" is instructing her to go no contact.  Which, if I'm correct, isn't recommended for couples who have children together because the non-custodial parent has a right to information about his or her child. There isn't even low contact between us at this point.

This is why I say it feels like a "final discard". So two questions:

- Are there any proven techniques for getting past someone's no contact to initiate low contact? Especially in cases of having a child together where it's important to have at least a limited dialog?  Do you know any methods to pierce this terrible wall of silence?  My daughter, unfortunately, is behind that wall.

- Why do you guys feel this is NOT a final discard on her part? It sure feels pretty final to me.  Even though I know she is totally unhealthy and abusive to me, I still cling to some stupid (and probably totally unrealistic) hope we can make things work. Part of me would still like to get couples counseling with her so we can be healthier co-parents and she can let go of her anger.

And, of course, I need to address my own co-dependency! In spite of her atrocious behavior, I still see the scared little person inside of her clutching at anything to keep me by her side or pull me back to her in any twisted way she can.  Maybe I need to get more pissed off, but right now I simply feel a.) scared I won't have access to my daughter and b.) isolated by her behavior.  As for her, I just feel sorry for her.

[formflier]

"And now you're going to LIE to the Jugenamt and say I don't help you with any money - when you KNOW that's not true. And I won't be able to see our daughter for a long, long time until I defend myself and clear that up. You're pushing me out of her life. Do you understand that?"

Can you see that your "style" of communication is trying to convince her of what she needs to think or understand?  Trying to convince her of what she "knows"...

In life... .let people figure things out for themselves.  If they ask you, perhaps you should share... .perhaps.

But someone that has not expressed interest in your help with their thinking... .well... .when you starting pushing for them to think differently... .do you think they will "come towards you"... .or "run away"?

As far as getting through the ST... .take lots of walks... .work out extra... .get a book.

Learn as much here about what to say next... .when and if she ever contacts. 

Basically... .stop reaching out... .she is "running"... .your attempts to "catch" her... .encourage her to run faster. 

BPDish stuff is a whacky world where they CRAVE closeness... .they CRAVE empathy and validation for their worldview of the moment.

Yet... .when they start to get it... .they haul a$$ the other way... .fast.

Part of what you need to learn is that when they come at you... .don't knock them away... .but don't suck them in hard either.  When they run away from you... .don't push harder... .let them know you want them back... .in a nonchalant kinda way.

Push pull is maddening... .

Your number 1 priority is to talk to a german lawyer.  I would assume the term over there is "retain" or "hire".  Make sure they are on your side.  Last thing you would want is to fly over there and walk into an investigation or some trouble.

FF

[codependable]

FF - Makes sense. Thank you very much for your help.  So to recap: Don't try to break the no contact. Doing so only pushes her farther away AND allows her to "run" the game.  Be low-key and sort of detached in my dealings with her if she ever initiates contact again.

And most of all, get a good German lawyer.

I appreciate your suggestions and guidance. I will read up on this forum for ways to communicate after NC.

[Grey Kitty]

The silent treatment is really hard to take. Probably worse when you are half the globe away. We've got a topic dealing with just that, which might help you.

BPD BEHAVIORS: Silent treatment - verbal abuse.

Unfortunately, it is one form of abuse that you really can't stop her from doing--you cannot force her to communicate with you in any way if she doesn't want to.

That said, you chasing after her by calling and texting multiple times isn't a good response--it is letting her know that it is getting to you and that encourages her to use that technique.

Best practice for you is finding other things to do with your time and energy... .even if it *IS* working for her, and is tearing you up.

In this situation, I would still reach out to her occasionally--every day or two, not multiple times per day if you aren't getting anything back from her.

Why do you guys feel this is NOT a final discard on her part? It sure feels pretty final to me.

I've got no way to know for sure. She could be ready to end things with you, and that would change things for you. Right now you are trying to move back in with her, repair/maintain a relationship with her, and one with your daughter. If she is really done, your goals with her change to being civil enough to see your daughter, and finding a different place to live in Germany, assuming you do want to return.

The reason I'm doubting is that the nature of BPD is to feel a certain way today... .Angry/jealous/hurt by your abandoning her for your other family in the US, which is how she FEELS, even though that isn't want you are doing... .and to twist reality, facts, the past, and the future to match that feeling she has right now.

And feelings do change, and hers will. And given that she has BPD, she is likely to twist reality, the past, and the future back into a new direction at this time... .and that will probably involve you moving back in, etc.

[formflier]

it is letting her know that it is getting to you and that encourages her to use that technique.

Focus on this point.  If you need encouragement... .or energy.  Focus on "not giving her the pleasure of knowing... ."

FF

[codependable]

Thanks very much FF and Grey Kitty. I've reached out to some English-speaking German attorneys and have heard back from one who is open to a consultation.

We'll see how it goes, the silent treatment is tough to take since I have no idea how my daughter is doing.

[formflier]

We'll see how it goes, the silent treatment is tough to take since I have no idea how my daughter is doing.

What are you doing to "take it" right now?

I would encourage you to add things to take care of you... .specifically because of this.

Go for walks... .or extra walks.  Listen to soothing music on walk.

Go out to breakfast a couple extra times a week.  Make sure there is time to linger over an extra cup of coffee and that book you have been wanting to read.

etc etc

FF

[codependable]

FF - thanks for your concern. I'm not doing well. I have plenty of time to read.

I'm reading a book entitled "Becoming The Narcissist's Nightmare: How to Devalue and Discard the Narcissist While Supplying Yourself". Good so far. Although I believe my gf has BPD, I know there are overlapping traits with NPD.

Seems like the major difference is intent. A narcissist knows exactly what they're doing and gets off on hurting and manipulating others for "supply", while pwBPD don't normally intent to hurt you. They are in such pain that their own emotions are all over the place. With that said, my gf definitely does some cruel things and I'm not sure right now if it's actually BPD or a combination of BPD/NPD. I'm no doctor.

I do know, however, that her childhood matches closely with the risk factors for BPD: she was told she was "ugly" constantly, was made to walk behind her stepfather and Mother, told nobody loved her, locked in a cellar for 24 hours in the dark as punishment (at 8 years old!), denied food, made to take ice cold showers as punishment, locked out of the house and forced out of the home at 16 years old. The worst, however, was that her mother did not step up to protect her against her stepfather. This, she says was the worst part.  There was also no physical touch or nurturing. She told me the first time she ever remembered getting a hug was at 16 when her friend's mother gave her a hug when she was leaving after a sleepover. She said she froze up and didn't know what to do - it was such a shock to her.  Many more stories like that - coupled with a history of many broken relationships in her past plus all the behavior I've seen - lead me to believe she has BPD.  She also told me one time, "I have this thing where if someone is not physically present with me, I feel like they don't love me anymore".  That was a big tip-off. She thinks she is Bipolar, but I'm not sure about that. Her moods cycle too quickly for that, in my opinion. But she has said, "I know I have something". She acknowledges a problem.

But she does show signs of NPD as well. For example, a couple months ago we were in Starbucks and she admired the new mugs the coffee were served in (they don't use paper cups in Europe). When we got back to the car, she pulled one of those mugs out of her purse. She had stolen the mug. She had a big smile and looked really proud of herself.

 I said, "Are you kidding me? You STOLE one of Starbucks' mugs?"
She defended it by saying, "It's a big company. They can afford to lose a few mugs".
I said, "They sell the exact same mugs for 12€ right in the store. If you had wanted one, I would have bought one for you no problem. I hope they didn't have a camera in there. Take it back"
She refused.
I brought this up a few times over the course of the next week saying, "That really shows your lack of respect for societal rules and your sense of entitlement. What grown 40-year old woman just steals a mug from Starbucks? That's just bizarre. I hope you NEVER do stuff like that in front of our daughter".

She said she would bring it back to Starbucks but she never did.

That - to me - sounds narcissistic, not so much BPD, but I could be wrong.

Anyway, this book is helpful in understanding the mind games personality disordered people play on those around them.

Other than that, I have a pit in my stomach 24/7 and am trying hard to focus, not obsess and not reach out to her and look at what time it is over there in anticipation of her having a "change of heart" and opening up communication to me.

Another thing I'm struggling with is a comment she made a couple weeks ago when she "broke up" with me. She said,

"We all lost" (meaning her, me and my daughter)
"You with your family in LA once and for all" (meaning I would stay in LA with my two older daughters and not come back to her).

This seems like self-protection: "dropping me before I drop her" kind-of-stuff.

A few days later she said, "live your life in LA and at least be a Dad to your other two daughters"

I replied that it was NEVER my intent to stay in LA for Christmas - that I was only going to stay through the first week of November, then return to Germany.

Now I feel like this silence is sort of a "test" to see if I was lying about that and would really come back to Germany for Christmas.

But what a terrible setup: she kicks me out, tells me to stay in LA for Christmas with my older daughters and bars the door to our home. And then says she's reporting me to the police for something I didn't do. And if I don't come back, I am the bad guy, the liar, the one who left them, the one who doesn't care.

I'm trying really hard to resist this incredible pressure to RUN BACK TO HER - in spite of the stuff she's pulling - and say, "See? I never intended to leave you" to prove her wrong. And we all have a happy Hollywood ending with lots of tears and hugs. This sort of stuff has happened before.

It's crazy these tests she sets up constantly to test my love and commitment to her. And somehow I'm always in the position of having to prove I'm not the "bad guy", that I have good intentions, that I'm not leaving her, etc. And she always places roadblocks in my path.

She pushes me away REALLY HARD - hardest ever this time - and then I have to "run after her" to prove my love. I ignored some of these games in the past and her comment was "Wow, you're not much of a fighter for what you value" - and "this must be REAL love" or something like that.

On the other hand, she is ready to leave the relationship at the drop of a hat. One wrong word in a discussion about our relationship and she'll say things like, "maybe we're not right for each other", etc. "I don't need you. I can't do it alone, but I don't need YOU. I will find a good Dad for our daughter, believe me". That sort of stuff. Devaluing and threatening to leave at any time.

So she pushes away to test and I lose: Yes, she gets the validation she needs, but it puts me in a weaker position. If I run back to prove my love, I'm no longer the "bad guy" in the scenario anymore, but I've now jumped through her manipulative hoops which devalues me in the relationship. When all I wanted to do was prove I'm not the bad guy she thinks I am and show her that I will be there for her.

I'm really struggling.

It's very difficult for me NOT to hop on a plane and go back to Germany because I know if I don't, I'll be split black the rest of my life and this will be one more thing to "prove" I wasn't committed to her. (In a very twisted way).

Even though she was the one who "broke up" with me, told me I could not come home for Christmas, is blocking me from seeing my daughter and has now booked a 10-day vacation to take my daughter "somewhere" (she won't tell me where) from Dec 22 - Dec 30th. Making it impossible to spend Christmas with my daughter in any way even if I DID come back. I think she's going to Turkey on vacation, but she will NOT answer any questions about where or who she is going with.

So I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't. If I fly to Germany (thus proving I never intended to stay in LA for Christmas), then I will spend Christmas alone. And she "wins" (in her mind because she pulled me away from my other two daughters). Yes, I will "prove" that I wanted to be there for her and my daughter. And maybe that will count for something in her eyes, but she has punished me, made me come back against threats of police and Jugenamt reports (which she probably didn't really do) and won't even be there for Christmas.

And if stay here in LA - even though she kicked me out and barred my access to my child - then she can forever say, "See? Your Dad is just a liar. He wasn't even there for your second Christmas. He wanted to stay in LA the whole time with his older two daughters. He doesn't care about you/me. Forget about him."

This is exactly how she acts and is her pattern of behavior, although it is escalating this time, with the Police and Jugenamt threats.

I think I'm best NOT to go back, but I feel if I don't, a.) the relationship will definitely be over ... .and b.) we will be in a much more adversarial position with respect to our daughter.

Thanks... .my heart is being ripped out... .

[formflier]

Dude... .hang in there.

When I say "reading"... .that would be reading stuff just for fun.  Nothing at all to do with BPD or even relationships. 

I'm holding my details of opinion until you talk to a L, but the quick version is I think you need to go back.

But... .lots of stuff to sort out.

You determine where you live.  Not her... .But... .you don't fight with her about it.  You just do it.

Again... .get info from L... .then let's get stuff straight.

FF

[codependable]

FF - thanks.

[codependable]

I'm holding my details of opinion until you talk to a L, but the quick version is I think you need to go back.
You determine where you live.  Not her... .But... .you don't fight with her about it.  You just do it.

So it sounds like you mean just go back to our apartment? And say, "I'm home". Basically like that? And then have a backup plan in case something goes wrong? Or do you mean go back to the same city?

Thanks... .

[Grey Kitty]

The book you are reading sounds like it has a lot of information in it about how NPD operates. From the title, it sounds like trying to beat a narcissist at their own game. Understanding their game is really valuable. Playing it to win isn't the solution I'd suggest, as the game is still awful even if you win. Better to disengage from the game entirely. I haven't read it, but I'm going to suggest you take the suggested strategies in it with a grain of salt.

If the person in question has really strong NPD traits, the only option may be removing them from their life. (Or playing games to win like that book might suggest)

What I've seen is that BPD & NPD traits are often mixed up, and your gf sounds more like that. I think the key in dealing with her is to remember that how fast her emotions cycle and spin.

One thing we say here is that for her, feelings = facts. If she feels abandoned by you because you aren't there with her, that feeling is hers, and it is real. And what she does is make all facts now agree with that feeling, not reality:

You with your family in LA once and for all" (meaning I would stay in LA with my two older daughters and not come back to her).

Those are just a couple examples. I'm sure you can find a dozen more. And they apply to the future too--she "knows" you are going to abandon her forever. To her that is an absolute fact, and she believes it.

(And if you do get through this, move back in, etc., all of this will vanish again when you are painted white. If/when her feelings change, all the facts change with them.)

She pushes me away REALLY HARD - hardest ever this time - and then I have to "run after her" to prove my love. I ignored some of these games in the past and her comment was "Wow, you're not much of a fighter for what you value" - and "this must be REAL love" or something like that.

Trust me--if you play her game with her rules, you WILL lose. Whether you stay together or not, you will lose. To make things worse, she won't actually win either--nobody can win in this game. You've been doing it for four years... .do you see any sign of her being happy? I know you aren't!

Her feelings aren't stable. You've let her "lead", and you are seeing where it will take you. It will only continue escalating, and get worse if you keep following her.

If you follow your own values, you will be better off. Your relationship with her has a chance of getting better, although that will depend on both you and her.

So what does that look like?

First, DON'T BELIEVE her twisted reality or the lose/lose choices she is forcing onto you.

Second, don't argue with her about her twisted reality. You won't convince her. (Has it worked yet?) What she will "hear" is that her feelings are wrong, and this further invalidation will just make those feelings worse, making her more angry with you.

You have time to read. Please read this:
TOOLS: Stop Invalidating Your Partner
Look back at previous fights you had with her--you probably said a lot of invalidating things. Don't be hard on yourself--When you are provoked like you were, it is a completely "natural" reaction. Work on how you can not do it in the future.


You need to act to protect yourself, and to take care of your daughter. You know what is good for you, and you can do it. You also know what is right for your daughter--Being with her, talking to her and being loving to her (if and when you can). Supporting her mother financially so she is physically taken care of.

She will tell you that you are doing 10,000 horrible things to her and your daughter. This is her way of trying to manipulate you and punish you. You probably can't stop her... .but you don't have to believe it, and you don't have to do what she demands to "redeem" yourself for it. You know that it won't work--like you said, if you fly back to Germany, you will spend Christmas alone, rejected by her and kept away from your daughter.

[Grey Kitty]

So it sounds like you mean just go back to our apartment? And say, "I'm home". Basically like that? And then have a backup plan in case something goes wrong? Or do you mean go back to the same city?

Dunno what FF means, but here's my $.02

1. Don't go back without good legal advise on what can happen.

In many BPD relationships, the next level of escalation is physical violence, and if she physically attacks you, you are at real risk; I don't know German law, but in most places, as a man you are at a real disadvantage regarding any domestic violence incidents. DV is often equated to "wife beating", and if you do things to defend yourself, you may end up in jail, instead of her. She might make false accusations here too, which could also put you in jail.

How to deal with this, should it happen is an area you need legal advice, but the one thing I will STRONGLY suggest is that you be prepared to remove yourself immediately from her presence, preferably BEFORE she becomes physically violent.

2. Make your plan to return to Germany in a way that fits YOUR values, and what you know/believe to be true.

You say she's going to leave on Dec 22nd and take your daughter away for 10 days. If you believe that, don't go back expecting to see either of them in this timeframe unless you can get German authorities to stop her from taking your daughter away. (I doubt it will work or go well... .but talk to your German lawyer about it before even thinking of trying that!)

Consider telling her that you would love to spend Dec 22-30 with her and your daughter. That you will fly in and meet her if she tells you where to go.

And let us help you craft your message--it should be your words. Let us see a draft before you say/send anything. She may not accept this offer... .but your old patterns with her could well guarantee a refusal.