More contact, more confusion

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

My ex emailed me yesterday about some items left at his place. Unlike previous times when he's made contact my heart didn't race and my anxiety was under control. I still feel a lot of sadness, but I'm stronger and despite what's happened between us feel ok about contact or so I thought.

I told him it's ok to donate the items. Everything seemed calm and friendly. I took the opportunity to tell him that I was no longer using the office subscription he'd bought me last Christmas, as I'd had to reset my laptop and didn't have the info to re-activate it. This is the conversation:

Him (1.5 hours later): I can reactive it if you want.
Me: That would be good, thank you
Him: (3 hrs later): How urgently do you need it? I'm going away tomorrow and rushing tonight but if urgent I'll sort it. Back Thursday.
Me: Not to worry. Have a good time.
Him: (2.5 hrs later, bad spelling, he was probably drunk): Will do. I told you you would throw it away and you did. How are S and P? Don't answer I know.

S and P are two male acquaintances he used to worry about.

He doesn't have to meet with me to reactivate the subscription and I wasn't concerned about it. If he gave me the info fine, if not still fine. What concerns me is how the conversation ended. I feel as if I handled it all wrong. I was trying to keep it brief, but friendly (which I've read about). I thought I could handle contact between us, but I'm not so sure now. I'm wondering if I'm kidding myself here and I'm still way too attached to him. Instead of getting less confused I'm getting more confused. I feel as if there was some push/pull going on here from both of us and miscommunication.

I'm now wondering if I should respond, maybe post on the improving board, my communication skills are clearly terrible, or just let things be? Any ideas?

[Larmoyant]

My ex emailed me yesterday about some items left at his place. Unlike previous times when he's made contact my heart didn't race and my anxiety was under control. I still feel a lot of sadness, but I'm stronger and despite what's happened between us feel ok about contact or so I thought.

I told him it's ok to donate the items. Everything seemed calm and friendly. I took the opportunity to tell him that I was no longer using the office subscription he'd bought me last Christmas, as I'd had to reset my laptop and didn't have the info to re-activate it. This is the conversation:

Him (1.5 hours later): I can reactive it if you want.
Me: That would be good, thank you
Him: (3 hrs later): How urgently do you need it? I'm going away tomorrow and rushing tonight but if urgent I'll sort it. Back Thursday.
Me: Not to worry. Have a good time.
Him: (2.5 hrs later, bad spelling, he was probably drunk): Will do. I told you you would throw it away and you did. How are S and P? Don't answer I know.

S and P are two male acquaintances he used to worry about.

He doesn't have to meet with me to reactivate the subscription and I wasn't concerned about it. If he gave me the info fine, if not still fine. What concerns me is how the conversation ended. I feel as if I handled it all wrong. I was trying to keep it brief, but friendly (which I've read about). I thought I could handle contact between us, but I'm not so sure now. I'm wondering if I'm kidding myself here and I'm still way too attached to him. Instead of getting less confused I'm getting more confused. I feel as if there was some push/pull going on here from both of us and miscommunication.

I'm now wondering if I should respond, maybe post on the improving board, my communication skills are clearly terrible, or just let things be? Any ideas?

[FallBack!Monster]

Yeah right. Sure this is about that.

[formflier]

Me: Not to worry. Have a good time.

You did great on the communication that you put here.

The only thing I would suggest... .and I'm not saying you did anything wrong... .is that you be a bit clearer on the one that I have highlighted.

I would suggest.

"Thursday will be fine.  Thank you."

If your goal is to keep things at "ex" status I would minimize emotional content.  So... .words like "worry"  and phrases like "have a good time" are ones to weed out.

Again... you did nothing wrong... .but realize that pwBPD can grab the smallest thing and take it out of context... .

No response is needed to silly things they say or text.  Don't ever acknowledge it in any way.

FF

[lovenature]

Hey L

First I would recommend you decide if it is best for YOU to have a relationship with him, if not then ANY communication is only prolonging the pain for both of you.

If you decide you want to still try, be as boring and non-emotional as possible. If the office program is worth anything to you, set up a time like formflier rec., or better yet tell him to set it up remotely at his convenience if that works.

The last part sounds like the typical BPD irrational jealousy; best to tell him that you won't tolerate him being jealous for no reason, don't JADE just back it up with NC if he tries to argue about it. He needs to know you are setting boundaries and standing by them.

Above all else do what is best for you, I know it isn't easy but with time and effort we can learn better self care.

[Larmoyant]

Thanks guys. I'm one mixed up person. I think a good place to start might be to work out what my goal is. I'm thinking out loud here so sorry if it sounds odd.

I very rarely, apart from his birthday last month, instigate contact, but he does. I know the clothes issue was an excuse for him to talk to me. I've made peace about whether or not to respond. I'm now happy to respond if it's civil. If we're going to talk then I'd like to improve how I communicate with him. My reactions in the past have added fuel to the fire and I want to stop doing this.

So where is this all going? I still have feelings for him, a lot, but, at the same time I am 'not' going to return for another round of abuse assuming that is even an option. I am strong in my conviction. Maybe I'm testing the water to see if I can change any of this? I have to give this some more thought. Right now, I'd like things to be ok between us. It feels better and I'd like to learn how to improve communication. My efforts at communicating with him have been pretty bad up to date and I tend to invalidate him a lot.
 
I'm not even sure if a relationship is an option or if he still wants a relationship with me. He seems to like contacting me, but it never goes anywhere. We seem to both have this emotional enmeshment going on.

As for the office program I should have expressed myself more clearly. He could easily give me the key and I could reactivate it myself. We don't have to meet in person that's why I didn't respond to him about Thursday. He's done this to me before. Refused to reactivate it unless I meet with him. I didn't mention it as I didn't want a repeat of last time.

Anyway, it's all fizzled out again until the next time he makes contact or until I work out what's going on in my head.

[formflier]

Maybe I'm testing the water to see if I can change any of this? I have to give this some more thought. Right now, I'd like things to be ok between us. It feels better and I'd like to learn how to improve communication. My efforts at communicating with him have been pretty bad up to date and I tend to invalidate him a lot.
 

I think I bolded your goal.  No judgment saying that is good or bad.  I'm hoping to clarify what you are after.  With that nailed down... .we can help guide you better.

Big picture to learn to communicate better:

1.  Slow things down when there is contact.  He says or writes sometime... .be considerate of a reply... .when you think you are ready to reply, then be deliberate about taking another minute or two to evaluate your reply.

In that evaluation period ask

1.  Am I addressing an emotion or a viewpoint that he has?  If so, how?

Beyond that, I really can't offer much more.  If you wanted to get "closer" to him, then I would advise you trying to learn more empathy... .to build an emotional connection.

I didn't get any vibe that you were leaning in that direction?  I'm getting the vibe that you want to be a bit distant and when/if he contacts you, that you communicate "well" with him... .and see if things improve.

Do I have it about right?

FF

[Larmoyant]

FF, Yes, this describes it perfectly. I'm slowly returning to the person I was before all the chaos and hurt and starting to feel 'normal' again. This makes me believe that I can relate to him better now, but I'm very aware of the damage he can cause and so I'm also trying to protect myself. So when I do respond I'm a little wary and also afraid of saying the wrong thing. It seems I'm doing that a lot as he disappears only to come back another day. It's confusing. Also, although I've got a lot better I still have feelings for him so they seem to interfere as well. Not so much as before, but they're still there. My head is almost catching up with my heart seems to describe my current state, but my heart is still doing battle. 

[formflier]

So... .look into FF's crystal ball.  Let's say this pattern keeps up for 6 months to a year... .and you do well at your part of it.

What do you hope your life and relationship will look like?

FF

[babyducks]

Larmoyant,

The thought occurs to me that you are being hard on yourself here.    You have made progress.

Unlike previous times when he's made contact my heart didn't race and my anxiety was under control.

That's significant.   You are feeling more in control.   Nice job.   Give yourself credit.

I'm now wondering if I should respond, maybe post on the improving board, my communication skills are clearly terrible, or just let things be? Any ideas?

I disagree that your communication skills are clearly terrible.   And I would recommend you not devalue yourself this way.  

The thing about validation is it takes some time to learn how validation works with each individual.   And you want to validate the valid, and not validate the invalid.

Him: (2.5 hrs later, bad spelling, he was probably drunk): Will do. I told you you would throw it away and you did. How are S and P? Don't answer I know.

This is an invalid statement.   Let's look at it.   You did not throw anything away, whatever he is referring too.   And S and P, he doesn't know how they are or what you are currently doing with them, correct?    He is baiting you, into an argument.   The same old argument.   If you stop and think about it I will almost guarantee that every argument you ever had was about the same thing.   At the very deepest level it was about him being unhappy and it being your fault.    There is no reason to participate in that conversation.  It's going to end up in the same place if you pick up the gauntlet.

Communicating better will diffuse the conflict, it will not eliminate it.   There is no perfect way to communicate with a pwBPD that will stop all dysregulation.    pwBPD will engage in circular arguments because they get something out of them.   A place to dump their difficult/negative emotions.

Right now, I'd like things to be ok between us. It feels better and I'd like to learn how to improve communication. My efforts at communicating with him have been pretty bad up to date and I tend to invalidate him a lot.
 

Three thoughts.   First, you are only responsible for 100% of your 50% of the relationship.   He is responsible for 100% of his 50% of the relationship.   I understand that you would like things to be okay between you.   What "okay" looks like is up to you to define.   Okay may be that when he throws dysregulation at you it doesn't effect you.   Okay may be something different.    You're ability to impact that is partial.   At best.

Second, learning to better communicate is a skill that comes in handy with everyone.   I am a much better communicator now than when I first met my partner.   And learning to validate and accept different world views is easier with some one who is not mentally ill and drinking.   Try practicing here.   Find a post, a newbie, and validate their experience.   Whatever it is.

Third, as you change your communication style he will likely double down on his.   It's called an extinction burst.   He is used to a certain reaction from you when he says 'you threw it away'.   When he doesn't get that reaction he will try harder to provoke it.    You don't need to reply, there is no reason to respond to verbal abuse.  I would suggest this.

If you want to reply you, because you want to deepen the connection, you don't need to say anymore than 'I understand that is how you feel, I feel that it's not good for us to continue on this same topic'.    And then don't budge off that boundary.    lovenature is right, he needs to experience that you are setting boundaries and will stand behind them.   If the topic of S and P is always a morass that becomes guilt and jealousy, there is no reason to talk about it any longer.   You can't explain it to him, he will need to understand it for himself.  I am guessing you tried more than once to convince him that jealousy is out of bounds and that didn't work out well.

Those are suggestions.   You will need to work out what feels most comfortable and will be the best for you.

Building up your skills, at communication, at validation, at having emotional armor and resilience so that slights and insults do not adversely effect you, will pay dividends regardless of what develops with him.

'ducks

[VitaminC]

Hi Larmoyant,

You've got some really thoughtful and good advice there already. I want to second most of that and say that I learned something from  Babyduck's points myself. This, in particular, I feel, can't be said often enough:

"He is baiting you, into an argument.   The same old argument.   If you stop and think about it I will almost guarantee that every argument you ever had was about the same thing.   At the very deepest level it was about him being unhappy and it being your fault.    There is no reason to participate in that conversation.  It's going to end up in the same place if you pick up the gauntlet.

Communicating better will diffuse the conflict, it will not eliminate it.   There is no perfect way to communicate with a pwBPD that will stop all dysregulation.    pwBPD will engage in circular arguments because they get something out of them.   A place to dump their difficult/negative emotions."

As long as this is true: "My head is almost catching up with my heart seems to describe my current state, but my heart is still doing battle." you need to be a little wary. By this I mean that you need to be careful with yourself.

I'm all for learning better communication techniques because they do serve us in every relationship.  I'm also cautious enough when it comes to my ex to know that there's a time to practise these and there's a time to give yourself a rest and let yourself recover. 

Two things that are in my head right now:
1) Sometimes we inch forward painfully and deliberately and other times we make giant leaps almost despite ourselves.
2) There are other places to practise that are just as valuable; it doesn't need to be directly with your ex.  You can learn climbing skills on a wall in a gym or on an actual giant rock. In the early stages the wall in the gym is safer and even once you've mastered a lot of the skills, it's good to go back to the wall once in a while to keep the technique sharp.

From the conversation you describe, it sounds to me like you handled it well. Formflier is not wrong with the suggestions, on the contrary, but looked at another way I have to wonder if it's worth the agonizing over a few words to improve a relationship if you have to be so damn careful over which words you pick.   I'm a big payer of attention to words, always have been, but even I got exhausted by and fed up with the word-play that took place in my own relationship.

[Larmoyant]

Can I first say that I'm very embarrassed to admit that I'm keeping this thing going, but it's where I am right now. I seem to be stuck between two, (possibly three), states of being. Walk away, leave it all behind or 'not'. It's difficult to explain. The 'not' seems to be winning at the moment.

So... .look into FF's crystal ball.  Let's say this pattern keeps up for 6 months to a year... .and you do well at your part of it.

What do you hope your life and relationship will look like?

FF, this caused a complete brain freeze! I had trouble answering. I could only come up with this.

Scenario 1: Him and I become friends. Not lovers, not partners. We are kind to each other. We talk sometimes, maybe go for dinner, friend stuff. I could take care of his dog if needed. I miss his good side. I miss the way he made me laugh. We have a lot in common. No animosity or resentment. Forgiveness on both sides.  Neither of us will be emotionally enmeshed and he won't feel threatened. He will act 'normal'. I will be able to keep him at arms length so he doesn't hurt me. I understand him and when he's sad I could be there for him.

Scenario 2: We recycle the relationship. My feelings about this are confused and messy. I would hope that improved communication would lead to a better outcome.  At the same time this scenario fills me with dread and fear of reliving the same nightmare I just woke up from. But, maybe it wouldn't be as bad because I understand more now. 

However, I'm not sure if better communication skills could overcome his intensity. In my opinion he is high on the scale for npd and BPD. Off the charts at times, and overwhelming, but at the same time I feel this connection with him. It's very strong and at times seems to override any common sense I possess.

Sometimes I feel as if I can handle him. I may sound weak, but I can be strong and resilient. He is a very strong person or at least has the appearance of it and I don't know why but I'm drawn to it. Drawn to it even though it feels like he's taking all my energy away from me, sucking the life force out of me. If this doesn't cement that I have a major problem I don't know what does. 

That's the best I can do. There is another scenario, one where he's not in it.

[Larmoyant]

Larmoyant,

The thought occurs to me that you are being hard on yourself here.    You have made progress.
That's significant.   You are feeling more in control.   Nice job.   Give yourself credit.

.

This brought me to tears. Thank you.

.This is an invalid statement.   Let's look at it.   You did not throw anything away, whatever he is referring too.   And S and P, he doesn't know how they are or what you are currently doing with them, correct?    He is baiting you, into an argument.   The same old argument.   If you stop and think about it I will almost guarantee that every argument you ever had was about the same thing.   At the very deepest level it was about him being unhappy and it being your fault.    There is no reason to participate in that conversation.  It's going to end up in the same place if you pick up the gauntlet.

.

He's referring to our relationship. I left so I threw it away. He's said it a lot, but he doesn't seem to be questionning why I left and that his behaviour may have something to do with it. Your right this is very familiar and I can see the baiting. The same old arguments. His jealousy is off the scale, about any male and this is where I used to go wrong. I'd JADE and around and around we'd go until I was a broken mess. 

.Communicating better will diffuse the conflict, it will not eliminate it.   There is no perfect way to communicate with a pwBPD that will stop all dysregulation.    pwBPD will engage in circular arguments because they get something out of them.   A place to dump their difficult/negative emotions.

.

.You're ability to impact that is partial.   At best.

.

I'm taking this on board. Sometimes I used to just sit there and take it until he blew himself out, but it didn't always work. Sometimes there was nothing I could do to stop him.

babyducks, you've given me lots to work with, thank you.

[Larmoyant]

As long as this is true: "My head is almost catching up with my heart seems to describe my current state, but my heart is still doing battle." you need to be a little wary. By this I mean that you need to be careful with yourself.

.[/b]

I agree. I feel stronger, but at times feel myself going back down the rabbit hole. I think overall I'm moving forwards just need to get through this bit.

. I'm a big payer of attention to words, always have been, but even I got exhausted by and fed up with the word-play that took place in my own relationship.

.

This has crossed my mind many times. I'm reminded of the walking on eggshell expression. When I envision my ideal future I'm not sure if I want to agonize over words.

I've been given a lot to think about. Thanks VitC.

[formflier]

Scenario 1: Him and I become friends. Not lovers, not partners. We are kind to each other. We talk sometimes, maybe go for dinner, friend stuff. I could take care of his dog if needed. I miss his good side. I miss the way he made me laugh. We have a lot in common. No animosity or resentment. Forgiveness on both sides.  Neither of us will be emotionally enmeshed and he won't feel threatened. He will act 'normal'. I will be able to keep him at arms length so he doesn't hurt me. I understand him and when he's sad I could be there for him.

I generally try to be "non-judgmental".  For this post... .I'm going to toss that out the window.  Others can feel free to "judge my judgments".

The items that I bolded above... .are just not going to happen.   Not a hint of realism there, given that a pwBPD is involved that does not seem to be in active treatment.  Honestly, even if there was active treatement, I would say the bolded is "highly unlikely".

Not trying to rain on a parade... .but give some clear honesty and setting of expectations.

2nd issue:  :)o some introspection.  What do you get out of "being there for him while he is said?"  If you are a caretaker type, why not go find someone without BPDish traits... .to "be there for".

FF

[babyducks]

Larmoyant,

The quote below is from another part of this website:

Realistic Expectations: A person with BPD is emotionally underdeveloped and does not have "adult" emotional skills - especially in times of stress.  If you are in this type of relationship it is important to have realistic expectations for what the relationship can be in terms of consistent respect, trust and support, honesty and accountability, and in terms of negotiation and fairness, or expectations of non-threatening behavior.  It is important to accept the relationship behavior for what it is - not hope the person will permanently return to the idealization phase, not accept the external excuses for the bad behavior, and not hope that changing your behavior to heal someone else.

The point is to have realistic expectations.   Whether he has BPD or NPD, he has exhibited enough traits of a serious mental illness to allow your therapist to comfortably assign him with a personality disorder. He has characteristics and traits that are very concerning.  He will not act 'normal'.   Projecting your good intentions and hopeful aspirations on him will not change how he views life and the world.

There are many different personal reasons to try and have a relationship, of any kind, with a person with a mental illness.   It is a uniquely personal decision.   I went into my relationship with my partner knowing and understanding that she was Bipolar 1, and 'comorbid with something else'.   She never actually said the words Borderline Personality Disorder.   It was always 'the other thing'.   I knew that her illnesses meant I needed to make very large changes.   I knew that it meant I would have to let go of many things.   There were three of us in the relationship, me, her and the mental illness.    It required a huge out lay of effort and energy.   It meant that I had to accept the risk that her illness would get out of control and bad things would happen.   That was the truth I had to live in.

Of course I wished it to be different.   Very much so.    It wasn't.   

'ducks

[Larmoyant]

2nd issue:  :)o some introspection.  What do you get out of "being there for him while he is said?"  If you are a caretaker type, why not go find someone without BPDish traits... .to "be there for".

Hi FF, this got me thinking. I don't think it's a matter of finding someone else. That sounds like people are interchangeable. He's the person I loved, spent two years with, made plans with. He can be lovely, and he's also destructive and abusive, but underneath all of that he's in emotional turmoil. He thinks I turned my back on him, abandoned him. People often leave him. I can't help finding that incredibly sad. Why not try to be there for someone like this. From a relatively safe distance that is, assuming I could learn the skills to do this, without getting hurt in the process. I'm not saying I could, it sounds very difficult, but it's a possibility. Probably way too much emotional involvement at the moment, but maybe later. I'm not sure.

.What do you get out of "being there for him while he is said?

.
" 
This is difficult to answer. On the one hand isn't it just humanity to feel compassion, wanting to understand and help someone who is hurting? Can it be as simple as that? Or is it something else such as a need in me. I'm used to being a caretaker and I don't see it as a problem. I like being a caretaker, but I also like being taken care of. He can't do that which is slowly sinking in. 

Maybe I can rephrase it and ask what I would get in return? Maybe, the things you've highighted are unrealistic, and if so, clearly I don't know enough about BPD yet. It's still hard to grasp that there can be no meeting of minds between us. That his thinking is very, very different to mine.  Maybe the best I could hope for is a friend who makes me laugh. Someone to talk to, play tennis with. I'm not sure this is a very hard question. I need to think about it some more.

[formflier]

Here is an example of realistic expectations and laying out large amounts of energy (effort).

Family devotions is an important part of my... and my family's life.  For a while it was an oasis, relatively unscathed by mental illness.

What I think happened, was my wife realized that I would "defend" that time, rather than walk away or give "no reaction".  Since she "got something" from being disruptive then, it started to become a habit.  I knew I had to address it, I knew it would be a pain in the butt, I wouldn't change devotions... .so this was an issue "I had to win".

My goal was/is that my wife is free to disagree with me and express herself in private (not in front of kids) and to refocus our family devotion time on "just devotions", vice a myriad of other issues she had started introducing.

Basically she started using this time to publicly disagree and berate me in front of the kids. 

We've now had 2-3 talks of 10-15 minutes, interspersed with 3-4 emails from me to her and 2-3 return emails that were whacko (such as I thought of her like she was a flea biting me... .that needed to be flicked away) and several texts back and forth (again whacko stuff about what I "had commanded" her to do).

All of the talks broke down with me taking a break to calm things.  The last talk ended up with me taking a drive to do some self care.  She announced that she had studied her Bible, determined that I wasn't Jesus, so she didn't have to listen to me.

Note:  By and large I used all the right tools.  I didn't argue with her about who Jesus was... .I did validate some, reflected back understanding.

It is unlikely that she will ever accurately reflect back to me my desire or verbally say she agrees.  It is likely that we will be able to reclaim devotion time, but it will take consistency on my part when she "tests" my resolve.  If you are curious about the 10-15 minute conversations.  I used about 2-3  minutes for my effective communication, she would start trying to go circular or use rabbit trails.  I would spend about 8 minutes in which we would get back a time or two to the original subject (by me steering away from circular or rabbit trail)... .she would finally be self aware enough to realize that her efforts to disrupt were not be successful and she pulls out a nuke (like the "you're not Jesus" comment).  She understand I won't stick around for religious mocking... and the conversation ends.

I'm worn out by writing that... .it was equally tiring to go through it. 

FF

[formflier]

Again... the point of the above post.  I made a choice to stay in this r/s.  This is an accurate portrayal of what it is like to see something important to me, 30 minutes of quiet and reflective time undisturbed by mental illness each day.

She thinks there is nothing wrong with berating me and then reading a Bible passage about only using edifying words to "build others up".

For the logic users out there... .yes I have asked if she just edified me and... ."Oh... now your just nitpicking me... ." is a likely answer.

All I want out of the energy I have expended is 30 minutes per day... .quiet and reflective time for a family to study together.

FF

[lovenature]

Maybe, the things you've highighted are unrealistic, and if so, clearly I don't know enough about BPD yet. It's still hard to grasp that there can be no meeting of minds between us. That his thinking is very, very different to mine.  Maybe the best I could hope for is a friend who makes me laugh. Someone to talk to, play tennis with. I'm not sure this is a very hard question. I need to think about it some more.

I think you know enough about BPD, your heart is what I believe is keeping you hoping that somehow you can have an amicable relationship with him. You must remember that your mind is not "wired" the same as his; a PWBPD has defenses to not have to feel their intense emotions, these all boil down to them making up their own reality to fit their current emotion of the moment-to them, feelings=facts.

Remember a PWBPD hates to loose an attachment, this is why they typically have a number of "orbiters" in place-any ex. who responds to ANY kind of contact shows them an attachment still exists. You are far more important than someone's OPTION L.

What is important to you in a friendship? a relationship? Do you really want to be with someone who you continually support while being hurt in return-to the point of loosing yourself and becoming a shell of a person?

You are feeling better, stronger, more able to withstand communication with him because you have had a significant amount of NC. If you go back you will get lost in the FOG again, taking a huge step back in your recovery, I know because I let my heart and feelings take over and NC to be broken after I maintained it for 5 months.
It is a huge step going from a flicker of hope, to none at all. Remember to always go by their actions!

[Moselle]

Hi Larmoyant,

Sorry you're having a hard time with this. There's progress.

It feels quite confusing to read all the comments on this post. To be honest I'm also confused by the ongoing communication between the two of you. Each word seems to be dissected for meaning which usually means there is some level of contempt in the relationship.

Where there is respect and mutual kindness, we can make mistakes in communication and still understand what the other is saying.

I can share what my relationship did for me. I'm wondering if you can relate. The chaos was an escape for me. An escape from taking responsibility for my own life , happiness and success. When I saw this, the realisation hit me like a ton of bricks.  She was my excuse if I failed at life.

Now I am taking responsibility for my own life. It's better. I enjoy it and I'm on the way to thriving. I fall back into old habits from time to time. Habits that began in childhood but were reinforced during my BPD relationship. I'm aware of it. I make course corrections along the route.

What's your payoff to stay in a confusing, chaotic space?

[Larmoyant]

I think my thinking might be off balance. He wants to meet this week and I'm struggling with a decision and I'm tearful. I left the relationship in a terrible state thinking that he was a psychopath. I was so hurt and damaged. I then tried to work out what happened. I thought he was a cluster B of some sort. I discovered NPD which fit, then BPD and it really seemed to fit. My therapist agrees. With this has come a strong feeling of compassion. I mean, it's sad that people struggle like this. I can see he hurts. Maybe I've gone too far the other way? I mean this man has really hurt me yet I still feel bad for him. May be I'm overthinking it all.

.The chaos was an escape for me. An escape from taking responsibility for my own life , happiness and success. When I saw this, the realisation hit me like a ton of bricks.  She was my excuse if I failed at life.

Moselle, this has crossed my mind before and there is so much truth in it and as LN says my heart is involved, sometimes overriding my common sense and logic. I'll give it more thought.

[Moselle]

Moselle, this has crossed my mind before and there is so much truth in it and as LN says my heart is involved, sometimes overriding my common sense and logic. I'll give it more thought.

I think it's the other way round. Your heart knows exactly what to do. And your head wants to analyse and discover a new option or an explanation of this disease.

Good luck with your decision. Do what is right for you.

[babyducks]

He wants to meet this week and I'm struggling with a decision and I'm tearful.

I left the relationship in a terrible state thinking that he was a psychopath.

Larmoyant,

The thought strikes me that you can make any decision you want,   meet,   not meet.   No one here can tell you what to do.   And this website will support you either way you go.

What is difficult for me to grasp is that the compassion you talk about is all for him.   and none for you.   

Yes it is sad that people struggle  with mental illness.   It's not your job to fix it.   It's not your job to care for his emotions.

It is your job to care for your own emotions.   to be compassionate to yourself.   to practice self care.  first.

How would compassionate self care for Larmoyant fit into either of the scenarios you describe?

[VitaminC]

Where there is respect and mutual kindness, we can make mistakes in communication and still understand what the other is saying.

I can share what my relationship did for me. I'm wondering if you can relate. The chaos was an escape for me. An escape from taking responsibility for my own life , happiness and success. When I saw this, the realisation hit me like a ton of bricks.  She was my excuse if I failed at life.

I would like to say that I find this extremely insightful and to the point from Moselle and feel that it describes my own relationship very very well.

I thought I could 'help' him, even 'heal' him (!), then I thought I could train myself to not be so sensitive and to communicate better, I ended by thinking that he was broken beyond repair and that I was on my way to a similar state of brokenness. It was both exhilerating to fall ever further downward into mental chaos (hey, it's interesting and those big & crazy emotions make one feel so alive) and also terrifying.

When I realised that what was a deadly serious game to me, was just the same game he'd always played, I decided I did not want to play any more. There were no rules, nothing was fair or safe and there was never any time out. (I am saying we were both immature in our approach to the relationship).

I gave up on the dream to pour kindness and love on his old wounds, and decided that however much I was bored by own old wounds, I had better tend to those properly.

Why does he want to meet, Larmoyant? What is the purpose? What do you want to have happen, if a meeting takes place?

People have said amazing things in this thread, here are the four that particularly pop for me:

-self care
-self compassion
-go by the actions of another, not pretty (or ugly) words - words are cheap
- "What's your payoff to stay in a confusing, chaotic space?"

[Larmoyant]

.How would compassionate self care for Larmoyant fit into either of the scenarios you describe?

.

babyducks, I'm going to try self-compassion in this post because I'm beating myself up. I didn't apply it to the previous scenarios as those were written from the 'top of my head'.  I was asked what I was 'hoping' for, wishful thinking, I wasn't really thinking of BPD realities at the time, they started to emerge in Scenario 2. I'm really not blind to them, but I might push them away sometimes.

If I allow myself to feel what I feel then it's this. I'm really hurting right now, I'm conflicted in that I feel both anger and compassion towards my ex. I'm also feeling shame because I care for someone who has hurt me, it's very hard to admit this and I fear criticism. I'm also conflicted because I both want and fear meeting with him and right this minute I don't know what to do. If I try self-compassion then I would say that it's ok to feel this way, I'm allowed to feel this way and that eventually I will work it out and don't panic because I'm still moving forwards. I have made a lot of progress. 

I suppose the most important question is what is keeping me in this? Many things, childhood issues, love, hope, fear, and the latest one, the belief (false?) that I could perhaps change things and things could be different. When I look back I can see, through the BPD criteria, what was going on. It seems I now think that if I'd reacted differently back then the outcome may have been different and that maybe now, in the present day, if I change my reactions then things would be better! This is delusional thinking most likely, but it is what's going on in my head. I'm glad to not be alone with it. That others have experienced it. Thanks for sharing this Vit C.

.Why does he want to meet, Larmoyant? What is the purpose? What do you want to have happen, if a meeting takes place?

.

Vit C, he wants to reactivate the office program in person, and won't give me the code. It's a repeat of the past he'll only activate it if we meet. He said he'll arrange it when he gets back. Honesty alert! I opened the door to this by mentioning it in the first place. I don't care about the subscription. I could get another one. It is an excuse for both of us and he now thinks he is in control of it. I can't seem to answer what the purpose is or what I want to happen.

It's been almost 11 months since we split and 8 since I last saw him. People would be angry and concerned if they thought I was contemplating meeting him. I'm scared of people being upset with me and I'm afraid to even write about it. I feel in turmoil now. He's coming back tomorrow. I'm leaning towards meeting. I feel I could handle it, step back, be objective, see what happens, but I am also afraid. Lovenature's words are ringing loud and clear in my head.

[formflier]

Larmoyant,

How long until he gets back? 

Since I don't exactly understand the timeframe, I'm going to be a bit on the judgmental/directive side to illustrate a point.

Principle:  Make communication about the relationship. (assuming you decide to communicate)

It appears to me that the office program has become a dysfunctional tool for YOU (and likely him) to hide behind to avoid "true feelings". 

Perhaps a way for you to "passively" "find" yourself back in a pseudo relationship with him.  Perhaps a way to have some deniability.  "No... .it's just about the program... .not the relationship".

Only you know the true workings of how you justify things.  We all justify and explain things to ourselves and others.

How am I doing so far?  Close?

My recommendation is that you fork over the $$ and get another office program... .ASAP.

Then send him the following email (thereby putting the ball in his court)

"Thanks for the offer on the office program.  I purchased another program this morning to handle a short notice issue that arose.  I hope your trip fulfills your expectations."

Now... .if you are sure... .if you are absolutely sure that you want to start "connecting" more to him... .then I would talk more about your relationship in the email.  I don't detect that from you...

True to this boards purpose... .you seem "conflicted" about where to go.

As such, I recommend you send him something neutral and remove a dysfunctional issue from the discussion.

Note:  Don't let him know the program is a dysfunctional issue.  Once you determine that for you... .act on it. 

Thoughts?

FF

[lovenature]

If I allow myself to feel what I feel then it's this. I'm really hurting right now, I'm conflicted in that I feel both anger and compassion towards my ex. I'm also feeling shame because I care for someone who has hurt me, it's very hard to admit this and I fear criticism.

Anyone here who criticises you is not being truthful about themselves (and hasn't walked every mile in your shoes), anyone who hasn't lived through a BPD relationship isn't qualified to give you advice and certainly not to judge you!
Don't ever feel shame for being a kind, caring, compassionate person; if the world had more people who truly cared about others it would be a far better place.

I believe if you commit to total NC and give it enough time (it takes what it takes), you will be able to see things clearly enough to make a final decision on the relationship, and do what you feel is best for both of you.

[Recovering480]

I think my thinking might be off balance. He wants to meet this week and I'm struggling with a decision and I'm tearful. I left the relationship in a terrible state thinking that he was a psychopath. I was so hurt and damaged. I then tried to work out what happened.

Oh Larmoyant... .a lot can be said about sleeping on it. You don't have to do anything that makes you uncomfortable. Give it a few days, try not to over-think it. You'll be fine.

Deep breath.

My ex was texting me last Monday demanding her stuff back. I didn't reply. She kept going on and on. Finally I told her that it was all outside at MY house and when she dropped off my stuff, she could get it. As you can imagine, that set her off. I finally dropped her stuff (she threatened police action and I was a little scared even though I knew she had no leg to stand on). It felt good to finally stand up for myself (kinda) and say no. Now, when she texts, a part of me wants to respond ASAP. I let it sit for a while and then decide what to do.

Bottom line: do what you feel is best for you.