Failed Another Test

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

So, had a great Saturday evening spending time together, quick shopping trip and running around. Sunday comes, service was great, she had an afternoon nap. I ran to the store to buy groceries and make dinner. I got done making dinner and doing dishes and the uBPDw "announces" she is going to bed while looking at me. Its 805pm and way too early for normal bedtime. Just 2 mins prior, my youngest daughter asked me "what time does our game come on daddy?" My youngest daughter enjoys watching our football games together and the game subsequently was coming on in 25 mins. So, my uBPDw heads upstairs and I can already see whats coming and so I planned to watch the first ten mins with my daughter, then I would head upstairs cuz I know what transpires if I dont. I didnt make it through the first set of downs before my wife from the top of the  stairs says in that tone of voice "what are you doing". I announce "I am watching TV" to which she replies... ."what are you watching?" I said "football" and she proceeds back to the bedroom and then immediately back down the steps and proceeds to ambush me about how "I dont care about her, how much I hurt her, how I never prioritize her, how I never consider her... .how every decision I make never involves her" Complete shaming session. "I hope you enjoyed your game and everything else you put before me" "You are probably cheating on me and all I know is you dont care about me" "I quit" Then comes the freeze out until the email this morning from work blaming me for the terrible marriage for the last 20 years and how I am cheating and how I never care. How she is so lonely yet she rejects me and every physical act or act of love or touch. She cannot even reciprocate a hug or kiss. This is pretty much a microcosm of the last 20 years. I am so weary and tired. She demands and demands yet she cannot accept what I have to offer and she has never accepted what I have had to offer. Ugh

[FiveForFighting]

So, had a great Saturday evening spending time together, quick shopping trip and running around. Sunday comes, service was great, she had an afternoon nap. I ran to the store to buy groceries and make dinner. I got done making dinner and doing dishes and the uBPDw "announces" she is going to bed while looking at me. Its 805pm and way too early for normal bedtime. Just 2 mins prior, my youngest daughter asked me "what time does our game come on daddy?" My youngest daughter enjoys watching our football games together and the game subsequently was coming on in 25 mins. So, my uBPDw heads upstairs and I can already see whats coming and so I planned to watch the first ten mins with my daughter, then I would head upstairs cuz I know what transpires if I dont. I didnt make it through the first set of downs before my wife from the top of the  stairs says in that tone of voice "what are you doing". I announce "I am watching TV" to which she replies... ."what are you watching?" I said "football" and she proceeds back to the bedroom and then immediately back down the steps and proceeds to ambush me about how "I dont care about her, how much I hurt her, how I never prioritize her, how I never consider her... .how every decision I make never involves her" Complete shaming session. "I hope you enjoyed your game and everything else you put before me" "You are probably cheating on me and all I know is you dont care about me" "I quit" Then comes the freeze out until the email this morning from work blaming me for the terrible marriage for the last 20 years and how I am cheating and how I never care. How she is so lonely yet she rejects me and every physical act or act of love or touch. She cannot even reciprocate a hug or kiss. This is pretty much a microcosm of the last 20 years. I am so weary and tired. She demands and demands yet she cannot accept what I have to offer and she has never accepted what I have had to offer. Ugh

[Hisaccount]

I went through all of those same things.
One of the stories I like to tell is the good night kiss.
My wife's last addiction was video games. She stayed up very late playing them. We have a couch that reclines.
So I don't dare skip the good night kiss or I will get into trouble, but for me, I have to go to her, move stuff out of the way and lean all the way over to kiss her. She would not move even 1 inch to meet me. She would not even take her eyes off the screen.

That sums up our relationship. Funny how it is like that and we still want it.

I often complained about her not coming to bed at all. She has excuses for everything. It was just a constant battle to get her to do anything, then says if you wanted that you should ask, well I did, I begged. Still didn't work.

She was always mad at me and I managed it well, but like you I always felt like a failure that I could not do anything right even though I did so much.

Funny how when we talk to them they seem so normal but they are broken. Their minds work differently and there is no easy solution to navigating interactions with them.

[Lucky Jim]

Hey Triple F, The reality is that what you have to offer will never be enough to fill her emotional black hole.  The neediness is part of BPD.  All you can do is change the way you respond to her demands, through validation, boundaries and/or other strategies.  You didn't do anything wrong the other night, so don't beat yourself up.  It is exhausting!  Suggest you be careful to keep yourself from getting depleted, by doing whatever you need to do in order to recharge.  I reached a point where there was nothing left in the tank, so-to-speak, which was a self-destructive path.

LuckyJim

[FiveForFighting]

I am just completely floored right now and so confused. In a reply email this morning, I shared how her lack of reciprocation felt like rejection and she immediately called on the phone. That conversation began with a "WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?" So I let her know how her communication the last 20 years has been impacting me/us. Anything she wants or needs she would use shame and guilt to get whats she wanted. She, in no uncertain terms wasnt having any of that and accused me of cheating, looking at porn or anything else. I let her know that each and every time I approached her for a touch, hug or kiss she would turn her cheek or not even hug me back. I did this at least 3 or 4 times this past weekend. She completely denied that I even came near her. What do I do with that? I was flummoxed. Then I shared with her how the shaming and guilting to get things was wrong and only made feel terrible and resentful... .she turned that completely around and said "honestly, I think its all in the way that your'e taking things". She "hates me for hurting her" and I now need to go find someone who I can love because its so easy. Besides... .according to her, she is not asking too much and its should so easy if actually loved her.

[FiveForFighting]

HisAccount & Jim,
Thanks for the support and kind words. Exhausting is an understatement.

[KateCat]

Its 805pm and way too early for normal bedtime. Just 2 mins prior, my youngest daughter asked me "what time does our game come on daddy?" My youngest daughter enjoys watching our football games together and the game subsequently was coming on in 25 mins.

Is there any chance your wife's mental illness extends all the way to jealousy of your time with your children?

I guess I'm wondering what would happen if, next time, instead of going upstairs to see what's "wrong" with your wife, you continue watching the game with your daughter? Will your wife "bring it" to a confrontation with your daughter present, or does she need to isolate you first in order to work through her frustrations?

This is a really difficult situation, but there are some husbands/fathers who post here who may be able to help you with brainstorming other reactions and responses to what can appear to be no-win situations.

[FiveForFighting]

Here is a short blip from another email: I cant even begin to try to piece together how to fix this because I get "the heisman" when I approach her and if any amount of time goes by that I am not completely engaged with her, we rehash this entire dialogue and I just can seem to figure out how to correct it. I work 75 hours a week between 2 jobs and other than that I am with her and our kids. In addition to doing what housework and laundry I can get to in between.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I am sorry if my pain causes you frustration. I am sorry it doesn’t generate compassion.

I don’t know what else to do. I don’t know how to communicate my needs without you feeling shamed. I don’t even understand that. I am so wounded, so hurt, so tired of begging for you to show me the slightest affection or attention. I can’t anymore. I can’t hope one more time that this will be the time you show me love. This will be the time that is different.

 I am in such pain. I am sorry if that leads to me yelling and cussing but nothing else seems to get through to you.
 
What is so wrong with me that you won’t make time for me? Won’t touch me? Won’t talk to me? Why do you withhold love from me?

If you want out just say it. I am so tired of trying to figure this out. I am so tired of trying to make sure you love me.

Don’t say you care or you love me when you don’t show it.

I don’t understand your lack of urgency about this. Your marriage is on fire and you just sit there and hang up on me for yelling and cussing.

Ill leave you alone. No more from me. So tired. I wish I could just leave and never come back. That way you’d be happy. So would your parents. So would the kids. Done.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[FiveForFighting]

Is there any chance your wife's mental illness extends all the way to jealousy of your time with your children?

I guess I'm wondering what would happen if, next time, instead of going upstairs to see what's "wrong" with your wife, you continue watching the game with your daughter? Will your wife "bring it" to a confrontation with your daughter present, or does she need to isolate you first in order to work through her frustrations?

This is a really difficult situation, but there are some husbands/fathers who post here who may be able to help you with brainstorming other reactions and responses to what can appear to be no-win situations.

Hi Kate... .its possible yes. It extends to anything that takes away the focus off of her. Be it the kids, a book or television and even a church meeting or commitment. I did to upstairs immediately afterward to address the situation but by then she closes down the disucssion by letting me know "I made my choice" and that I "can go back to my game because its obvious the game is more important than me". Thank you... any coping mechanisms would be good and i have learned over 20 years but  have never shared my thoughts with anyone.

[flourdust]

My wife could have written that email. I heard those sentiments so many times from her over the past few years. My focus became protecting the kid from exposure to her craziness.

[KateCat]

I did to upstairs immediately afterward to address the situation but by then she closes down the disucssion by letting me know "I made my choice" and that I "can go back to my game because its obvious the game is more important than me".

I am actually thinking (well, to be honest suggesting  ) that a better strategy might be not running to soothe your wife as a first impulse/habit/default. Because you now have years of data to show you how that goes. Your wife seems to feel completely bereft, neglected and unloved. This is mental illness.

I'm not a man and not a parent. But it seems to me that more than a few battle-experienced fathers who are members here have lived similar versions of your dilemma. This will take time. But reading their stories, sharing techniques with them, and getting feedback can begin to change things. Not easy.

For many, this is the holiday season. In a paradoxical way it's a perfect time to get started on changing your family dynamics as you will have multiple opportunities to practice.

I don't think you will find a better group of people anywhere to help you with this than the men who belong to this forum. (Though the addition of a mental health professional to your personal coaching team can also be of great help.)

ADDED: I cross-posted with flourdust. And really, my first thoughts upon reading your initial post were also thoughts for your children. 

[FiveForFighting]

I am actually thinking (well, to be honest suggesting  ) that a better strategy might be not running to soothe your wife as a first impulse/habit/default. Because you now have years of data to show you how that goes. Your wife seems to feel completely bereft, neglected and unloved. This is mental illness.

I'm not a man and not a parent. But it seems to me that more than a few battle-experienced fathers who are members here have lived similar versions of your dilemma. This will take time. But reading their stories, sharing techniques with them, and getting feedback can begin to change things. Not easy.

For many, this is the holiday season. In a paradoxical way it's a perfect time to get started on changing your family dynamics as you will have multiple opportunities to practice.

I don't think you will find a better group of people anywhere to help you with this than the men who belong to this forum. (Though the addition of a mental health professional to your personal coaching team can also be of great help.)

ADDED: I cross-posted with flourdust. And really, my first thoughts upon reading your initial post were also thoughts for your children. 

Yes, Kate again, I agree and I have spent numerous years diffusing situations and "walking on eggshells" so that we limit the crazymaking and yelling and abuse. Kids are 17, 15 and 13. They are pretty much aware that something is not right and things dont go in a healthy pattern but we are working on it every day. I have spent a number of hours lurking on this site and others and I thank you for your suggestions and support. It is greatly appreciated.

[KateCat]

What is so wrong with me . . . ?
. . . .  
I wish I could just leave and never come back. That way you’d be happy. So would your parents. So would the kids.

The lessons on this website include practical tips on what they call "validation" of your partner. It's not meant to include you agreeing to her facts. But rather you showing you are hearing of her feelings.

So, in the above, you might see that your wife feels something is wrong with her. She feels shame. Fear. She thinks everyone would be happier without her.

I personally suck with validation, but, as I understand it, you begin with things like, "It must really hurt to feel . . . ." "I would be very hurt too if I felt . . . ".

Maybe you are already doing these things. And maybe "boundaries" will be the next ingredient to add to your formula.

I'm guessing your wife refuses psychological help? I don't suppose there's a possible segue from validating her painful feelings into suggesting that exploring them with a counselor might be the best path to relief?  

I see your kids are older, so there may be no great urgency to whatever you do and you can take your time experimenting with different responses and boundaries.

You sound like a wonderful family man. I wish your wife could be like (for instance) my sister, who loves sitting down with her son and husband to watch football. She even roots for my regional team as well as her own. But that is good mental health for you, and most of us on this forum are not so lucky in this regard when it comes to spouses and partners.

[FiveForFighting]

Thank you again, Kate. We are currently in critical mode and I am desperately trying keep my boundaries. She had a blow up on the phone today and is now in full-on crisis mode because I wont not show for my second job. I was scheduled a shift tonight and she is playing the guilt game in order to get me home and to drop everything right now. Its all or nothing here. Threatening to leave me if I don't come home from work. I informed her that we could sit down to talk when I get home but I cannot leave my post prior to the end of my shift and she will not accept that. She believes that I do not care for her and place my second job above our marriage and above her. Gosh. Am I wrong in keeping my commitment to my work and working on this when I get home? Seems things are quickly falling apart and I'm trying to keep it together.

[flourdust]

Thank you again, Kate. We are currently in critical mode and I am desperately trying keep my boundaries. She had a blow up on the phone today and is now in full-on crisis mode because I wont not show for my second job. I was scheduled a shift tonight and she is playing the guilt game in order to get me home and to drop everything right now. Its all or nothing here. Threatening to leave me if I don't come home from work. I informed her that we could sit down to talk when I get home but I cannot leave my post prior to the end of my shift and she will not accept that. She believes that I do not care for her and place my second job above our marriage and above her. Gosh. Am I wrong in keeping my commitment to my work and working on this when I get home? Seems things are quickly falling apart and I'm trying to keep it together.

No, you're not wrong. A reasonableness check is helpful. Is it reasonable to have a sit-down discussion with your wife about whether or not you should keep a second job, and the pros and cons for your family? Yes. Is it reasonable for you to not show up at work because your wife is upset that morning about the second job? No. The former is about making collaborative and wise decisions. The latter is about reacting to the impulses of the moment.

As for your wife's threats ... .she sounds to me like someone who makes plenty of threats but doesn't follow through on them. My wife is the same way. Is that accurate? It can be helpful to react more to her actions than to her words.

[FiveForFighting]

No, you're not wrong. A reasonableness check is helpful. Is it reasonable to have a sit-down discussion with your wife about whether or not you should keep a second job, and the pros and cons for your family? Yes. Is it reasonable for you to not show up at work because your wife is upset that morning about the second job? No. The former is about making collaborative and wise decisions. The latter is about reacting to the impulses of the moment.

As for your wife's threats ... .she sounds to me like someone who makes plenty of threats but doesn't follow through on them. My wife is the same way. Is that accurate? It can be helpful to react more to her actions than to her words.

Yes, flourdust... .that would be correct. She has made many threats in the past and followed through on none. Historically, also ... .after the threats, crying, yelling and begging... .the situation proceeds to complete meltdown and over-emotion. Sometimes there is an apology and most time there is not.

[Lucky Jim]

Anything she wants or needs she would use shame and guilt to get whats she wanted.

Right, those w/BPD use F-O-G (fear, obligation and guilt) to manipulate the Non, in order to get their needs met.  It's all various forms of arm-twisting, in my view, but we Nons tend to fall for it.  I sure did!

LuckyJim

[KateCat]

Am I wrong in keeping my commitment to my work and working on this when I get home?

Heck no! Indeed, here is a thing that appears to be presenting as a "crisis" but may in fact be an "opportunity" in disguise.

[Hisaccount]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I am sorry if my pain causes you frustration. I am sorry it doesn’t generate compassion.

I don’t know what else to do. I don’t know how to communicate my needs without you feeling shamed. I don’t even understand that. I am so wounded, so hurt, so tired of begging for you to show me the slightest affection or attention. I can’t anymore. I can’t hope one more time that this will be the time you show me love. This will be the time that is different.

 I am in such pain. I am sorry if that leads to me yelling and cussing but nothing else seems to get through to you.
 
What is so wrong with me that you won’t make time for me? Won’t touch me? Won’t talk to me? Why do you withhold love from me?

If you want out just say it. I am so tired of trying to figure this out. I am so tired of trying to make sure you love me.

Don’t say you care or you love me when you don’t show it.

I don’t understand your lack of urgency about this. Your marriage is on fire and you just sit there and hang up on me for yelling and cussing.

Ill leave you alone. No more from me. So tired. I wish I could just leave and never come back. That way you’d be happy. So would your parents. So would the kids. Done.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Holy crap are you dating my ex wife? I swear she wrote that.

It really is that bad, I read the exact same things over and over and over.
And we all know it isn't true. That is what I appreciate most about this board, we have all been there, I know without you ever saying a word that you did show your affection, you did try and I know she did not, but thinks she did.

[formflier]

Yes, flourdust... .that would be correct. She has made many threats in the past and followed through on none. Historically, also ... .after the threats, crying, yelling and begging... .the situation proceeds to complete meltdown and over-emotion. Sometimes there is an apology and most time there is not.

It's interesting to see parts of dysfunctional stuff from different peoples stories show up in another person.

For instance... .I'm not aware that my wife ever threatened me that if I didn't come home from work something bad would happen.  But she regularly acts out in front of kids.

Couple things

What books have you read so far about BPDish stuff or relationship issues?

Do you have a T?  Have you ever tried MC? (trying to get caught up quick... .sorry if I've missed it)


First... .there is hope that it can get better.  I am sure things can get better for YOU as we teach you more about boundaries.  We'll have to see how she reacts to healthy changes to get much of a sense of "how good" the relationship can get.

Can you hold things steady in your r/s for about a week or so (keep doing what you have been doing) while we help you pick a thing or two that should be changed first. 

It's critical that you have resolve when you start, because if she gets a sense that you has "rolled you" or "won" when you try a boundary... .honestly it's worse than doing nothing at all.

Personally... .I'm going to suggest you build boundaries around time with your kids.  My hope is that your kids "know" that you are there for them and that you can guide them to have better responses around their mom.

FF

[ArleighBurke]

Personally... .I'm going to suggest you build boundaries around time with your kids.

I think OP has great boundaries already. What he needs is VALIDATION.

Your wife is displaying classic BPD behaviour. Imagine she is 5yrs old, standing there yelling "look at me - look at me". That's about what she is doing. You have maintained great boundaries by refusing to leave work early and by staying to watch sports with your kids. But what you need now is VALIDATION.

She FEELS a whole bunch of envy, isolation, etc. Whether these feelings are justified or not is irrelevant - she FEELS them. Talking to her with Validation allows her to be heard - and will help. Read about it here:
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?board=36.0.

With time, you may also be able to pre-empt these kind of situations, and Validate her emotions BEFORE she acts out.

[FiveForFighting]

It's interesting to see parts of dysfunctional stuff from different peoples stories show up in another person.

For instance... .I'm not aware that my wife ever threatened me that if I didn't come home from work something bad would happen.  But she regularly acts out in front of kids.

Couple things

What books have you read so far about BPDish stuff or relationship issues?

Do you have a T?  Have you ever tried MC? (trying to get caught up quick... .sorry if I've missed it)


First... .there is hope that it can get better.  I am sure things can get better for YOU as we teach you more about boundaries.  We'll have to see how she reacts to healthy changes to get much of a sense of "how good" the relationship can get.

Can you hold things steady in your r/s for about a week or so (keep doing what you have been doing) while we help you pick a thing or two that should be changed first. 

It's critical that you have resolve when you start, because if she gets a sense that you has "rolled you" or "won" when you try a boundary... .honestly it's worse than doing nothing at all.

Personally... .I'm going to suggest you build boundaries around time with your kids.  My hope is that your kids "know" that you are there for them and that you can guide them to have better responses around their mom.

FF

HI Flier... .see what I did there? Thank you so much for your responses and insight. Anyways, I tried to quote individual lines in your post but I'm slow to the message board game.  To answer your questions... .A T? Is that therapist? Yes. I have seen an individual once and am planning more chats. MC? Marriage counseling possibly? We tried that once long ago and we were in the session about 15 to 20 mins and she walked out and we never went back because she felt the therapist and I were ganging up on her. I have not read many books and have done mostly everything online because of some control issues. I have nothing that is my own and if she knew I were "plotting" against her it would be the ultimate betrayal. I began researching the traits 10 years ago and was completely convinced but some time ago I made a commitment to throw away all my documentation and notes and start new. My kids and I have been dealing with issues and walking on eggshells for 17 years. I hold a second job she had a breakdown today... .begging me to not go into work, not to leave her home. I told her I had to go and we could talk when I got home. Not a good answer she was calling all evening and when I called back... .I got smashed. I chose work over her. Work over my marriage and how could I possibly do this to her. I have guilt just sharing these types of things but I've gone 20 years now not talking to anyone and I have no baseline for a healthy relationship. I don't even know what one looks like. I don't know what I am in the middle of. She takes grea care to keep everything and anything from our children. She idolizes me in front of the children but will then call me a "horrible husband" and "just because you clean the house and doo laundry and cook, doesn't make you a good husband" behind closed doors. The kids can see somethings happen and can see her behavior from time to time and will ask me "what the heck was that" or "what the hecks with mom? Why did she... ." One of her constant complaints about me is that I always have time for the kids but none for her. I do know I spend a lot of time with them but I do nothing else, have no personal life and am always  with her. Gosh, there's so much baggage here.

[once removed]

its something of a leap of faith, especially when things escalate, but some of these dynamics can get worse before they get better. boundaries are critical, but introducing them late into the relationship can be scary, and you are likely to experience extinction bursts. she will continue to try what works to get your attention (good or bad, as you fighting with her is still attention). hence the escalation.

it can be a tough line to walk that i think boils down to maintaining firmness (without being punitive, or too rigid, and it doesnt sound like you are), not taking bait, and using the stop the bleeding tools to diffuse conflict (and make things less stressful for you) directly to the right ------->

[formflier]

  I have been dealing with issues and walking on eggshells for 17 years. 

Are you ready to change your relationship for the better?

What if I told you that she will not like it?  She will accuse you of "betrayal"... .etc etc... .

I'm not aware of any option where you get a better r/s and she magically "becomes reasonable.

Given that... .are you ready to change your relationship for the better?

FF

[FiveForFighting]

Are you ready to change your relationship for the better?

emphatically, yes

What if I told you that she will not like it?  She will accuse you of "betrayal"... .etc etc... .

I don't assume she will and I am under no false pretenses or illusions that this will be a good time.

Given that... .are you ready to change your relationship for the better?

I have been ready for so very long. I ultimately want to be well, my kids to be well and I wan to model whats right about relationships to my children. I so don't want them to have to repeat this later in life.

[Wayno]

I am new to this but the more I read, the more I get stick to my stomach, just about every story is a excerpt from my life, the situations are the same just change the names.  I am amazed.