First extra P session in a while

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

I'm trying to be more "strategic" about where I expend energy and/or take a stand.

This morning I was in kitchen, kids were all at tables preparing for devotions/breakfast.  3 year old was causing a ruckus... .saying no... .generally doing well at being a toddler.   

Trying to keep things moving along, I asked D10 to take away D3s bowl and let her chill for a bit.  D3 was calming... but still occasionally saying "no".

My wife comes into the room and starts berating D10 for "not listening" to D3.  D10 starts to say something and my wife overtalks her.

Well... I knew at this point I needed to act.  I tried to be neutral and say "FF wife, D10 was doing what I told her to do, let's go talk privately, parent to parent"

Of course... .this doesn't seem to help.  She claimed that what I did was "over" and this was totally new.

I keep repeating that we should talk in private and that D10 was doing as she was told and I bear responsibility for that... .NOT D10.

My goals. 

It seemed obvious that my wife wasn't going to listen.  Honestly... .my audience was my kids.  I wanted them to see and hear me standing up for them, especially when they were doing what I said.

Another goal is to "defend" family devotion time.  Recently, my wife seems to have upped the level of disrespect for the sanctity of this time. 

My P (and I agree) that family devotions has been a stabilizing habit for our family, worthy of some sort of defense. 

Basically I held to my position for 5 minutes or so until my wife gave up and left the room.  She returned 5 minutes later and didn't bring it up again.

I would keep offering to go talk privately or start devotions.  I would start devotions and then my wife would interrupt... .with me redirecting back to devotions.

Apparently she interrogated D10 while taking her to the bus after devotions.  D10 confirmed that she indeed was doing what I said and that D3 was saying "no" because she did not like having her bowl taken.

So, my wife texts my a rant... .then asks forgiveness "for her part".  There is some back and forth via text as I said it would best to discuss this later after work.

Today's extra session is to help me be my best... when she gets home. 

Thoughts?  Questions I should ask?


FF


 

[formflier]

I'm trying to be more "strategic" about where I expend energy and/or take a stand.

This morning I was in kitchen, kids were all at tables preparing for devotions/breakfast.  3 year old was causing a ruckus... .saying no... .generally doing well at being a toddler.   

Trying to keep things moving along, I asked D10 to take away D3s bowl and let her chill for a bit.  D3 was calming... but still occasionally saying "no".

My wife comes into the room and starts berating D10 for "not listening" to D3.  D10 starts to say something and my wife overtalks her.

Well... I knew at this point I needed to act.  I tried to be neutral and say "FF wife, D10 was doing what I told her to do, let's go talk privately, parent to parent"

Of course... .this doesn't seem to help.  She claimed that what I did was "over" and this was totally new.

I keep repeating that we should talk in private and that D10 was doing as she was told and I bear responsibility for that... .NOT D10.

My goals. 

It seemed obvious that my wife wasn't going to listen.  Honestly... .my audience was my kids.  I wanted them to see and hear me standing up for them, especially when they were doing what I said.

Another goal is to "defend" family devotion time.  Recently, my wife seems to have upped the level of disrespect for the sanctity of this time. 

My P (and I agree) that family devotions has been a stabilizing habit for our family, worthy of some sort of defense. 

Basically I held to my position for 5 minutes or so until my wife gave up and left the room.  She returned 5 minutes later and didn't bring it up again.

I would keep offering to go talk privately or start devotions.  I would start devotions and then my wife would interrupt... .with me redirecting back to devotions.

Apparently she interrogated D10 while taking her to the bus after devotions.  D10 confirmed that she indeed was doing what I said and that D3 was saying "no" because she did not like having her bowl taken.

So, my wife texts my a rant... .then asks forgiveness "for her part".  There is some back and forth via text as I said it would best to discuss this later after work.

Today's extra session is to help me be my best... when she gets home. 

Thoughts?  Questions I should ask?


FF


 

[formflier]

Good session with P.

We practiced staying relaxed calm and approachable.

Plan for tonight is to focus only on

"Can we agree that when a parent enters a room while another parent is "parenting" that the most important picture we can present to our children is of the parent entering the room to "joining together" with the parent already there"

for the rest of the smokescreens she is likely to put up...

"I'll have to give that some thought... ."  and return to the main point.

FF

[takingandsending]

Hey FF. 
It's been a long time since I have been on the boards. Agreeing  "that when a parent enters a room while another parent is "parenting" that the most important picture we can present to our children is of the parent entering the room to "joining together" with the parent already there" sounds like heaven. Something I never attained with my uSTBxBPDw - neither on my side nor on hers. Two questions:

1. What do you do when you see FF wife "parenting" in ways that are harmful, destructive and emotionally abusive to the children?
2. What will you do when FF wife agrees but does not execute her commitment?

I hope your family is doing well. Good on ya for hanging in there.

Kindly,
T&S

[Sunfl0wer]

Humm,
"Joining together" sounds ideal... .
Tricky too... .
But I like it.  Sure wasn't what I originally wanted to recommend.

What about (sorta) validating AND reframing things/setting the expectation?
Such as: Ya know FFw, I agree... .it would be nice to begin devotionals calm and ready of mind... .I am sure we can all agree there is a better way to begin our am praise to _______.

Then redirect to someone a positive action towards that?

Like: hey kid#2, are you willing to help me with xyz tomorrow to help us get started easier tomorrow am?
Or maybe better: FFw, later we can discuss how to get started more smoothly and eliminate (these things ffw just pointed out)

Then get back on track fast?
Redirect everyone back to the devotional and just get on with it vs allowing more focus on the behaviors. (Thus via behavior, communicating the is not pick a fight time, just still devotional time, minimizing attention to negative behaviors.)

I really don't know but thought that could be a brainstorming starting point.

[takingandsending]

Sunfl0wer,

That sounds pretty brilliant. I am finding with my sons that very thing: don't focus on the negative/disruptive behavior but get back to neutral activity until the charge bleeds down. Then discussion becomes possible. S5 is teaching me this over and over ... .the hard way. Dad is not the quickest pupil.

[formflier]

There is a bit of a different focus coming from the P.  I showed P the emails and texts recently from the devotional subject.

In a way... .that came to a head today.

The P wants me to "paint a picture" for my wife... .LESS WORDS... .

So... .my "talk" for tonight is 1 sentence... .  Just one.  All other topics are great for talk at a different time, to make sure they are fully understood as well.

We'll see how it goes... .likely will have time to chat with her in 15 minutes or so.

FF

[Sunfl0wer]

 

We'll see how it goes... .likely will have time to chat with her in 15 minutes or so.

Interesting to hear how it goes, as I find the challenge tricky and a good learning experience.
Good luck!

[formflier]

So... .all credit to the P and the in person practice today.

In the end... .wife agreed to it... .although seemed resigned... a bit defeated.

She spent a lot of time tossing out issues to "bite" on... .I "stepped it down"... .light validation... .acknowledged I could see that point of view... .and that I would give it some thought.

So... .I ask if now is good time to chat... .she says she wants to change... potty... then she will be ready. I say that sounds great.  She seems friendly... I was conscious to be friendly.

She comes and sits close to me... there is proud conversation about S8 acing a math test today.  

I stayed with that topic until she seemed to loose energy on it.

I pivoted to

"Hey... .been thinking about the picture we present to our kids of parenting.  I've also been trying to serve our family better by using less words to draw a clearer picture.  I'm going to go for one sentence... .

Can we agree that a parent entering a room and desiring to join a parenting situation, short of an actual emergency, will first join the other parent by gaining understanding from them and presenting a united parenting front to the kids

Lots of efforts to draw whacky conclusions... .I said there would be no way to make an exact rule for every situation, but I want to draw the picture... .that we both strive for.

Every time she added energy... .I paused... spoke some as described earlier with a focus on "stepping it down"... .while remaining friendly and open.

No illusions that this is fixed.  My hope is to get away from playing the game of me... or her... .not "exactly" saying the right thing.  

For instance:  This is what she texted me that I should have said this morning... .and had I said that... .she would have "seen the light"... .essentially trying to pass blame to me for her flip out.

below is the text of what I should have said...

ffw honey, D3 is saying no because I told D10 to take her cereal, this is the same situation I just handled' in a nice calm voice would have allowed me to understand and not walk into a landmine.

What I actually said was

"FFw, D10 is doing what I told her to do.  Please speak to me if you believe this should be handled differently."  (this is very close to what I said... .I honestly can't remember exact ones... but you get the drift)  She was berating a kid for doing what I told the kid to do.

FF

[Sunfl0wer]

Oooh, I didn't originally grasp that you were to approach her and express that you wanted to paint a picture for the kids.

"Hey... .been thinking about the picture we present to our kids of parenting.  I've also been trying to serve our family better by using less words to draw a clearer picture.  I'm going to go for one sentence... .

Can we agree that a parent entering a room and desiring to join a parenting situation, short of an actual emergency, will first join the other parent by gaining understanding from them and presenting a united parenting front to the kids

This sounds wonderful!

I know you know already that agreements don't work, so I won't mention that.

Yet I see huge value in expressing your intentions, especially as you do strive to paint a picture, and make a change, nice for her paranoia to be notified that you have this intention vs her observing your behavior and feeling it "snuck" in the mix.  Also, presenting it this way IS actually behaving consistent with the words you are expressing, painting a pic of parents working together.  -cool!

below is the text of what I should have said...

ffw honey, D3 is saying no because I told D10 to take her cereal, this is the same situation I just handled' in a nice calm voice would have allowed me to understand and not walk into a landmine.

What I actually said was

"FFw, D10 is doing what I told her to do.  Please speak to me if you believe this should be handled differently."  (this is very close to what I said... .I honestly can't remember exact ones... but you get the drift)  She was berating a kid for doing what I told the kid to do.

Somehow I do not see this semantic adjustment going too well in how you corrected it.  I still see where she could feel corrected, reprimanded, and help give her opportunity to see you in a schema mode as behaving to her as a "punitive parent", thus eliciting her "rebellious child."

Idk... .
Interesting to see how it goes.
I kinda thought things would fall apart way more after ending last BMC, so am so glad to see you got stuff to work with! (Sorry it sounds soo cynical! Trying to sound encouraging!). I kinda thought your sleep and such would experience encroaches by her.  Much rather see her play out power struggles over devotionals than sleep!

[formflier]

Here is my take on sleep.

She knows that enough people know... .that she won't go there anymore.

She got zero support from anyone... especially BMC... .about denying me sleep.

Knock on wood... .   

Do you remember the days of BMC telling her that after 10pm she was only allowed to talk to God.  No electronics... .no books other than Bible. 

Essentially... .she can go to bed at any time she wants... .but after 10pm God will be sufficient to "keep you company" if she chooses to be awake.  My sleep improved dramatically... .as did my mood.

Those were the days... .

Sigh

FF

[Harri]

Hi FF! 

I think you handled this very well and I wanted to pop in and let you know that. 

You were able to support and stand up for D10 and stand strong against your wife.  Sure, there may be some room for improvement but that will come.

Well done!  And I really like your T.

Take care

[Grey Kitty]

First off: Overall, you handled this really well.  Good job!

Next... .where could you have done better? My take:

My wife comes into the room and starts berating D10 for "not listening" to D3.  D10 starts to say something and my wife overtalks her.

Well... I knew at this point I needed to act.  I tried to be neutral and say "FF wife, D10 was doing what I told her to do, let's go talk privately, parent to parent"

Of course... .this doesn't seem to help.  She claimed that what I did was "over" and this was totally new.

And that's where you are still trying to do something that doesn't work. I think you are trying to do the right form of parenting, as you were discussing with your wife later:

Can we agree that a parent entering a room and desiring to join a parenting situation, short of an actual emergency, will first join the other parent by gaining understanding from them and presenting a united parenting front to the kids

Unfortunately, the reality is that whether your wife agrees with that or not... .she fails to execute it frequently. And probably will continue to fail to execute that, even if she does "agree" to it.

And what you did... .asking her to leave and have a parent-to-parent discussion with you... .in front of your children, when the two of you were already in exactly that conflict... .is actually in the same class as what you want to avoid!

The next time your wife pulls this... .and like you say, there WILL be a next time, I see two acceptable options for you.

A: Concede, and let your wife's approach will stand.
B: Assert that your approach is happening, not hers.

YOU have to choose whether you will fight this one, and how far you will take it.

The option you "want" which is you and your wife briefly taking a time out, agreeing upon the correct action, and providing a united front to your children isn't available to you, and it only makes a bigger mess when you try. (At least I think that is what has happened the last 100 times you tried it, am I right?)

[formflier]

The nuance to this situation... .is that my daughter was doing what I told her to do.  My wife was berating her for her actions, and not listening to my daughters explanations of "why" (that Daddy told me)

Unfortunately... .at that level (volume)... .I don't see letting it slide.

I do need to spend more time with P in "role play" to attempt to defuse... .or leave my wife holding the bomb.

There was some suggestion by P that next time I say

"This issue has been handled... we are having devotions"  and start reading... .ignoring whatever my wife is doing.  That puts her in the position of demanding to interrupt the devotions that she demanded we start again.

We have done them in the past and I usually cancelled them because of her disrespectful actions.  I can clearly see that this time is beneficial to kids... .so... .I'm not cancelling them.

Thoughts on a quick "it's over" statement and proceed on with devotions.  Note... .this assumes it is at or after start time. 

FF

[takingandsending]

GK is kind of getting at what I had asked. The agreement will be broken, and when it is, what will you do? I am rusty at this, but my recollection is that boundaries are built from our values.

Your children benefit from doing devotions. Your values tell you that your children's well being is important. Wife comes in and behaves in ways that are at odds with your values. What will you do? I don't think it is a my way/her way thing. That is what she wants to make it, but you are the one who knows better/can keep a cool head in a perceived or made-up crisis. If this value is an important one to you (high on the priority to maintain), then you can validate that you see her upset but not back down - "I am handling this; please leave." Offering anything toward resolving her emotional upset is not going to change how she feels. And she is responsible for her feelings - not D10, not D3, not FF.

At least, after thousands of similar episodes with my wife, that is the conclusion I reached and the approach that worked for me ... .and admittedly, is leading to the end of marriage.

And I do think you handled it great, as well.

[Grey Kitty]

The nuance to this situation... .is that my daughter was doing what I told her to do.  My wife was berating her for her actions, and not listening to my daughters explanations of "why" (that Daddy told me)

Unfortunately... .at that level (volume)... .I don't see letting it slide.

I think you made the right choice.

And whether I think you did or not, I'm encouraging you to make a choice and follow through with appropriate action.

I don't see how asking your wife to discuss it privately with you is an appropriate action--Has it ever had a good result? Note: I'm not saying that private discussions with your wife about parenting are a bad idea... .I'm saying that asking her to do this at this time is a bad idea.

I'd note that your P's suggestion did not suggest private discussions with your wife about the issue.

[formflier]

I'd note that your P's suggestion did not suggest private discussions with your wife about the issue.

Yep... .I want to confirm the big lesson she is trying to teach.  But I'm thinking it is minimizing time spent on disruption... acknowledging that the "issue" needs to be handled (validating what my wife sees), but NOW is time for devotions... .(and do devotions)

FF

[HopefulDad]

All things considered, I think you did everything great.  Kids absolutely throw a monkey wrench in the works because if you and your wife cannot show a unified front, you are stuck either (a) asserting yourself which may send the message to your kids that you are above your wife (and your wife trying to do the same in return) or (b) risking your wife ignoring your request to resolve parenting differences in private.  Neither of these solutions are great.

I think ultimately you want to get your wife on board with showing a unified front and it does appear that she does, too, but she'll slip from time to time because of who she is.  I think having patience and continuing to press for a parenting discussion in private will be the better long term play.  If she wasn't on board with this at all, then you really have no choice but to go with option (a), but that doesn't appear to be the case.

For this to work, though, you need to do the same.  If you see your wife parenting in a way you don't agree with, aside from something dramatic like her kicking the crap out of the kids, can you hold your tongue until you talk with her in private?

[formflier]

Last night I had an opportunity to do the "short and quick" thing again.

My wife had texted... .asking me to run a bath for us. We have a nice jetted tub.  

I texted back that I was low on sleep and needed to go to sleep earlier... .that I would catch her later.

Normal bedtime is 10pm.  I have sleep issues... pretty rigid with that.  My goal was to try and get another 45 to 30 minutes extra sleep.

Around 915 she comes barreling in with two kids and hops in the tub... .making a big racket.  Tub is next door to where I sleep.  

930pm I asked her if she could send kids to bed so I could sleep and stated "it's well past their bedtime".  She said sure.

I went back to bed.

945 the racket was still going on.  I walked in and told kids to come upstairs with me I was putting them to bed.  My wife asked if I wanted them to dry off first.

"No.  Kids, it's well past your bedtime, come upstairs with me"  Wife slumps back in tub, sighs and looks at ceiling.  I left with kids and sent them to bed.

Finally got to sleep about 1015.

Wife slept somewhere else last night.

Few thoughts.  She hasn't kept kids up past bedtime, in a while and hasn't brought them in for a bath with her in a while too.  My guess is it was punishment for not agreeing to take a bath with her.

Frustrating... .


This morning she kept interrupting in devotions.  I would ask a kid a question, she would correct the question.  "What you really should be asking is xyz... ."

I stayed quiet... .kid sat there.  I would ask againg after a minute of silence.  

4 times I did that until finally she stayed quiet... .kid answered... .devotions went on.

FF

[Sunfl0wer]

My apologies! I take full responsibility, shoulda never mentioned it!  

My take on it all is your wife feels the need to have a certain amount of conflict with you.  Like she feels the conflict, feeling = facts, so she goes on to intentionally fulfill her feeling prophecy.  

Completely reminds me of my ex. He seemed to have a "need" to engage me in similar fashion. For him, it would start at dinner time, a time he could be certain to have me seated with him, cause for me to leave the family dinner would look like I am the bad guy. (In his head). If I didn't bite on him trying to escalate at the table, or the clean up routine griping he did, his "go to"/last resort would be subtle insults at my son, until someone HAD to confront him to stop.  Kinda like it became his "go to" if he could not cause others to be aggravated any other way, he knew he always could by aggravating my son.  Then it would turn into a private discussion where he would vent some random frustrations which made little sense, but really seemed a way for him to blow off steam and let out his dysregualtion he was building up.

Just sounds to me that it doesn't matter to her if it is about devotionals or what, she will find an avenue to engage the conflict, and "prove" things are in conflict.

I think you being able to sit down, have a nice devotional with the kids, threatens her reality that things are not all ok.  Cause in her they are not, so your behavior of being a reliable dad is invalidating her.

Idk, didn't say it exactly, but maybe the jist is there.

I was kinda alluding last time to sticking with devotionals as allowing it is also allowing her to have an avenue for her to play out this conflict she will always play out, cause if she feels satisfied she foiled your devotionals, then she may not care to ever bother with bedtimes again.
*sigh*

(Yup, sounds like the kid bath party was a Trojan horse to attack ur sleep)

[KateCat]

I think you being able to sit down, have a nice devotional with the kids, threatens her reality that things are not all ok.  Cause in her they are not, so your behavior of being a reliable dad is invalidating her.

Ring true for anyone else? It absolutely does for me.

If devotionals continue to follow the schedule of weekdays at 7:30 a.m., then will late evening situations like the one you just experienced continue also?

[Fian]

FF, what do you think is happening in your wife's mind when she behaves badly, you shut her down, and then she leaves and later returns back calmly?  I find it hard to believe that emotionally she has cooled down.

[Sunfl0wer]

I find it hard to believe that emotionally she has cooled down.

_{my theory is she gives herself a pat on the back for being the better person, "winning"}

[Grey Kitty]

My wife had texted... .asking me to run a bath for us. We have a nice jetted tub.  

I texted back that I was low on sleep and needed to go to sleep earlier... .that I would catch her later.

Hmmm... .looking at it after the fact, perhaps there was room to add something about how much you like a bath with her... .but you DID make it about what you needed, instead of making it about her, so this was still really good.

She hasn't kept kids up past bedtime, in a while and hasn't brought them in for a bath with her in a while too.  My guess is it was punishment for not agreeing to take a bath with her.

I don't like the word punishment in this case--That sounds more manipulative than you've described your wife as being.

It still does sound like a reaction on her part to the rejection/stress/whatever associated with either that or the morning devotions conflict. So you probably aren't far from right there.

BTW, excellent job handling that one.