What scares me the most is when BPD Mother sounds normal

[MrWtn1978]

It has been 9 months since there was a major confrontation between my sisters, BIL and my parents due to them enabling my brother who is a drug addict.  We (4 children) tried to meet with my parents as a group to discuss our concerns and my mom refused to meet with us if my BIL was present (because he had already expressed concerns and she didn't like what she'd heard).  After 2 days of them refusing to meet us, we decided to express our concerns via a certified letter (as we had time sensitive information).  As my BPD mother is a counselor, she absolutely refused to listen to anything we had to say and sent us an 8 page rant in return.  Several weeks of silence passed and then my father tried to get us to meet for an afternoon to solve the conflict.  Of course the issue with my brother was not the main issue, just the straw that broke the camel's back when it came to my parents.  My dad has a felony charge and spent time in federal prison for tax evasion, and maintains he will not pay taxes still.  They are in financial ruin and refuse to accept it, borrowing from everyone they can with no hope to repay.  My mom's BPD causes her to have inappropriate relationships with her children where she wants to be closer then is emotionally healthy, discuss client problems (sexual addiction), talk for hours on end daily over the phone, expects us all at her home for all family occasions, etc... .  So due to all the myriad of issues we had, outside of what they were doing with my brother, we each responded individually how we needed some time to process what the issues were before being able to discuss them with them.

Since then there has been little face to face contact.  I have spent 6+ months in weekly individual counseling to figure out my emotions - because I had a huge trauma reaction to the whole weekend when we tried to confront them.  I have set a boundary of not discussing these issues face to face. I have corresponded with my mother (as my father has not responded to my dialogue for over 6 months) many times and have gotten nowhere. 

Any time I express concerns, she is ether very defensive (sarcastic, angry, overreacting) or plays the victim (this is the most painful thing that has ever happened to me, how could my children do this, etc... .).  OR she completely ignores my issues and starts waxing eloquent (with a zillion quotes) justifying what they did with my brother.  As much as I disagree with how they handled his crisis, it was enough for me to make my concerns known so she would not monopolize my time and emotions with every minute detail of his road to recovery.  I have told her clearly several times that though I disagree, they are all adults and it isn't my business - do what you will.  I need her to agree to disagree on this topic and move on.  I need to deal with the issues I have with our relationship. 

Any time I clarify an assumption she had.  Am polite, kind, etc... .  Reassure her that she wasn't the worse mother in the world, etc... .  She assumes the problems are all solved and everything is back to normal.  If I say, well this issue isn't quite solve yet she falls into a pit of despair.

Once my counselor suggested BPD as her issue and I began reading "Stop walking on eggshells" all the the loose ends began to tie up.  All the times when she just could not understand logical things we were saying to her.  The HUGE NEED she has to be justified in our eyes.  The constant need of approval.  How easily she assumes we reject and shun her. etc... .  It has helped me have more empathy towards her.

So here is my dilemma... .When she has the crazy reactions, it kind of helps me understand that I am not the crazy one... .  But when people tell me that she is finally understanding what we are saying, and that she feels relief, etc... .  It is a huge trigger for me - that maybe she doesn't have BPD after all and maybe it was just a misunderstanding (which is what she claims). 

I guess bottom line, I am terrified of us not being at a stand off because of how codependent I was with her before (and how her pain can still control my emotions).  If I am not holding her at arms length, she wants to be my best friend.  She wants more time, intimacy and approval then I am able to give her.  If there is not a crisis it is really hard to stop her when she crosses a boundary (she is one of those subtle, careful and controlled BPDs that no one but family members can see it).  I am so afraid that I won't stand up to issues when we are getting along because it will be characterized as overreacting.  I have a huge desire to be perceived as fair, rational, etc... .  The only way she gives me that feedback is if I am playing her game.  I am sick of being accused of being the on who overreacts to things, and seeing her justify her wrong behavior because I "overreacted" to it. 

The 9 months of no contact have been such a huge relief I am afraid of going back there!  I guess I just need practice of how to deal with her face to face.  Letters are easier because I can take the time to put it down if it is emotionally overwhelming and come back when I can handle it.  I can be sure that I am able to complete my thought.  I don't have to fall into the "black hole" where she controls the conversation and emotional environment when I write her.   Maybe it needs to be a permanent boundary of only discussing issues in writing.

Anyone else get triggered by BPD acting normal again?

[Fie]

Hello  

Anyone else get triggered by BPD acting normal again?

Yes, me, definitely !
I am pretty much NC with my BPD mum and my father. My daughter, who's 8, last week has sought contact with them (She was sick of waiting for them to contact her). I get triggered massively when I think about it. I want the NC to last (less stress). But sometimes I think 'was it all that bad ?'. My mum is a high functioning BPD. She sometimes rages, likes to confuse and manipulate people, but she can restrain herself when there are others around. She likes to present herself as a victim and tells people that I don't let her see her grandchild (which is not true, it was my parents never showing any real interest in the first place). When people ask me why I behave 'like that' towards my mum, I have moments when I start to question my sanity. She obviously only behaves crazily with me, my father and maybe my sister (who doesn't seem to notice the dysfunction). My father does notice, but I think he nor my sister think she's BPD.

Only me. On top of that, as long as I can remember the 3 of them have always considered me the odd one out. Throughout my childhood I have often heard I was the 'strange' one, different than them.

So thinking 'am I not the crazy one' makes me wonder if I should resume contact. (Not really a very valid question actually ... .since it was really them starting the NC. But anyway) Because why would I not want contact if she was mentally sane and behaving normally ? When I start to think like that, I start enumerating for myself where she crossed my boundaries. It also helps to remind myself of the fact that if someone has been crossing my boundaries for 37 years by now, they will keep on doing it.
And than if I'm not convinced, I tell myself that after all, I am happier with NC. Even if it would be true that my FOO is not a dysfunctional mess, still I am happier not seeing them.

So I know how you feel  

[drained1996]

MrWtn1978, your issues are shared by many here... .me included.  It's tough when you realize someone/s in your family play such a part in an unhealthy relationship dynamic filled with illogical thinking.  Very frustrating and draining... .we know.  
One thing many have learned here is that we cannot change them, but we can control how we react to and communicate with them.  To the right of this page you will find some lessons and a survivors guide that can help you along your path.  The tools drop down at the top of every page also has very useful tips and communication techniques.  
It's actually very good that you have begun to learn to self protect by setting some boundaries.  Learning how to set boundaries and limits goes a long way in protecting us, and can serve as a learning tool for our BPD's as to what we will or will not tolerate.
One thing I have found very helpful is Radical Acceptance, it's something I've actually used in a lot of relationships in my life... .here is a link:
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=90041.0

We are here anytime for any questions or thoughts you would like to share.  You've found a place for knowledge, understanding and sharing.  We look forward to hearing more.  

As to your question:

Anyone else get triggered by BPD acting normal again?

Is she really "normal", or just in a regulated state at the time... .something you know from experience will probably not last?  

[Notwendy]

Pretending my mother was normal and I was the problem was played out so well in my FOO that I truly believed my family would be fine once I left home for college. It was years later that a younger sibling told me that was not the case. The behavior continued- but the "don't talk about it" rule kept me believing that for years.

It was as an adult that I witnessed my mother having a severe dysregulation and realized that what I was told didn't happen as a kid ( even if I saw it) really did happen and I was not to blame for it. But nobody in my family would validate that. My father would get angry if I mentioned it. My mother had painted me black to her FOO- they believe I am the crazy one. It was family members on my dads side who confirmed my suspicions and her psych history to me.

I can usually keep in mind that she has BPD but the others day she sounded so normal it was upsetting in a way because it triggered the self doubts I had as a child- is it her or is it me? Either what I saw was real or it was not.

But it was real. My mother has moments of normal- and this was confusing. Such is the nature of BPD. Being that she is untreated- and has no desire to consider getting help to address it- she wouldn't discuss that either. Getting along in any capacity requires pretending all is fine between us and that she was just a normal good mother. Since I don't like pretending but also see the futility of discussing any of it- as it dysregulates her - and she takes victim perspective our relationship is very superficial.

It's not up to me to want to expose her facade to anyone in her circle. It's their decision to decide what they want about her. And it is likely she is at her best with people that don't see the side of her that we kids see.

[Charlie3236]

It seems you've perfectly described what anyone close to a BPD feels... .The constant back and forth, mental manipulations, cycles of normalcy then being slammed into dysregulation. This is such a painful and confusing disorder for everyone involved, and the only thing I'm sure of at this point is that my BPD little sis will ALWAYS bite me eventually, no matter how "normal" things seem in the moment.

I'm starting to think the best way to handle a BPD person is to just stay the Hell away from them if possible. Anything else is going to hack away at your soul. :-(

[MrWtn1978]

Thanks everyone,

I am always questioning.    She is very good at controlling emotions so she doesn't lose control often in a way you can pinpoint and say - hey that was crazy.  Her crazy world is pretty close to normal, so easy to accept since when you play by her rules (I am queen, I am always right, when you accept this we can all get a long) really work.

When I was a kid I just accepted that she was 100% right. She displayed the controlling behaviors over my time and interests (chose the musical instruments we children learned, and guilt-ed us for not showing more interest etc... .).  I assumed my issues with her were the general teen rebellion.  But as I look back, it wasn't just questioning what she taught me to discover if it was a value I wanted, I truly felt smothered.  Thank the Lord she sent us kids to boarding high school.  It helped a lot.  She changed roles, no longer dictating my every move, she now wanted to be my best friend.  By the time college finished she had me hooked.  As her personality changed, I just accepted the good and felt that any bad feelings I had towards her were just adolescent/childhood struggles and not anything I needed resolution on.  When my brother sank into addiction and some of his issues came out (which she confided every detail with me about), she would ask me if I felt the same way and I truly didn't want to hurt her, so I didn't admit it.  I felt it was in the past and I didn't need to bring it up.  The best friend role continued without question for years.  Over the last 8 years I have slowly noticed issues I could not reconcile (though she could).  And I have stepped farther and farther away.  3 years ago I knew all the issues, had to confront both parents as she was using me to bolster her case against my dad.  Since then I knew she was wrong and dared not do anything about it.  I was afraid of the fall out I am currently experiencing.  I just tried to limit time together, but when with her play the old role.  

Today she will have to avoid the off limit topics if she wishes to have superficial happy family time.  She can't have me as her best friend anymore.  That is going to kill her.

[Notwendy]

Don't be so sure- my mother has replaced me with a friend who is about my age. This friend was new to the area and my mother embraced her and has acted as a mother/friend to her and as grandma to her kids. Much easier to start over with someone that doesn't have the history between us.

[Woolspinner2000]

Welcome MrWtn1978!

I'd like to join the others here in saying I'm glad you've joined us. 

Once my counselor suggested BPD as her issue and I began reading "Stop walking on eggshells" all the the loose ends began to tie up.

Have you read Surviving a Borederline Parent by Kimberlee Roth and Freda Freidman? That has been my go-to book which has been a tremendous help to unraveling myself from my uBPDm. I will put the book review link here for you:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=68021.0

Definitely sounds like you have your hands full. My uBPDm was also emotionally enmeshed with us children, and the effects as an adult have left me with struggling to understand and establish and maintain boundaries with anyone, not just my mom. Have you read about the emotional enmeshment which we address here at the site?

https://bpdfamily.com/content/was-part-your-childhood-deprived-emotional-incest

 
Wools

[MrWtn1978]

Woolspinner2000

Yes I am in the middle of that book!  Helps so much.  Even though my uBPDm is not doing the totally erratic behaviors that are often described in BPD literature, I find myself in this book.  It describes ME to a T.  I have the issues of a child of a BPD, whether she "flys under the radar" by controlling her emotions or not, I am still impacted.

I can also see my siblings, my sister basically has a cold fortress against my mom, and my brother is the out of control drug addict.  I (along with my Russian Adopted sister) fell into the "golden child"/favorite role because we had so much in common as far as interests went, and I was willing to do "whatever" she said to make her happy.   We were way too enmeshed!  Funny thing right now is that though she accuses my sisters and I of shunning them and how painful it is because we are leaving her out with family get to-gethers, she really isn't saying "I miss you, I miss our relationship".  She talks about missing her grand kids.  She talks about how hurt she is that I "turned on her".  But she really doesn't seem to actually miss me.  I am realizing that though we were too close before this happened, in the last 4 years - during which she and my dad faced financial ruin because of zero retirement planning and lots of debt (dad is almost 67, she is going to turn 65), my dad's prison time for tax evasion, etc... .  She has overly burdened me with her issues, but she has no longer had time or interest in mine.  She wanted to be close to me to meet her needs (supporting her in her multiple crises), but she really didn't have a close relationship with me.  She could call for 1-3 hours per day, but mostly she did the talking.  She always asked about me first... .but it was obvious that she just wanted to ask "out of politeness" so she could get on to her crazy story.  And if I did share with her, she usually turned the conversation for how it related to one of her issues or an issue of one of her clients (she is a counselor).  So for years I really have not been getting anything out of the relationship and have felt trapped.

Looking back over my past with new eyes is quite helpful!

[MrWtn1978]

Don't be so sure- my mother has replaced me with a friend who is about my age. This friend was new to the area and my mother embraced her and has acted as a mother/friend to her and as grandma to her kids. Much easier to start over with someone that doesn't have the history between us.

True, she has her 20+ people who support her.  And she claims that she doesn't need me when talking about this issue with my Grandma.  But what will kill her is not having the ability to convince me she is right - as she always has been able to do before.  Right now she is frantic to justify her behavior towards my brother (what our confrontation started over).  Every letter is filled with all her defenses and pain.  She refuses to address any of my boundaries or issues with her.  But she goes on and on justifying herself and claims we won't let her defend herself or prove her case.  She yells at my Grandma that "no one defends me" or "you need to tell the girls they are wrong".  For some reason she is obsessing on our opinion of her.  This is what made me realize she really wan't just a narcissist, but it was boarderline thinking... .needing to be right so they won't be discarded.

[Notwendy]

Even during the times my mother sounds "normal" the content of the conversation is still focused on her- her needs- what she wants from me. We base our assessment of "normal" on the fact that in the moment - she  sounds pleasant , isn't dysregulating or raging - appears lucid and even logical. But that is the only "normal" we know having grown up with her.

Yet the conversation isn't really normal. It may sound normal but it's all about them. There isn't much emotional connection or reciprocity that one would expect between two people who care about each other. We were raised to expect this one way relationship- how could we know otherwise?

But we don't have to accept that as "normal".

[Fie]

Sometimes for me, 'normal' is when she'd show an active interest and ask questions about how I am doing. You know, than there is always this glimmering of hope, that she'd love me and care for me anyway.

Afterwards however it always appeared that she did not *really* care, she just wanted to pry, or to gather information to afterwards use against us.

[Notwendy]

What's been eerie when my mother gets information is that she then turns around and reports it as if she did it.

She will sometimes tell stories I have told her from being a mom to my kids as if she was the mom and I was the kid. I do a lot of driving the kids around to activities but my mother did not. If we didn't ride the school bus, my dad took us. We carpooled with friends to activities but I rarely recall mom driving ( and being in the car with her was not pleasant).

So when my mom hears what I did and then says " I recall driving you to dance lessons" and I think what the h*? mom. That wasn't you.

Most of the time my contact with my mother is about her, her needs, her wants. Sometimes she appears interested but I don't fully believe it. I don't know if she is capable of that, but I don't think I would believe it if she was.