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Author Topic: Does Mediation Ever Work?  (Read 406 times)
Shananiginz

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Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner’s ex
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« on: December 08, 2016, 12:58:14 PM »

Hello,

This is my first post on the site.  I've been reading up on other posts and it's been helping.  I am stepmom to SS13  and SD7.  I also have a D13 who lives with me and my husband. Husband's ex is uBPD and they divorced 2 years ago (divorce took nearly 2 years to finalize)...   Access to the kids since the divorce is bad.  Really bad.  SS is being severely alienated and most of the time refuses to come on our weekends. Mom encourages this and even makes plans with him on Dad's weekends.  SD likes being with us and has expressed fear of Mom. We decided to go to mediation for a few reasons: 1) its free (our county has  a dispute resolution center staffed by trained mediators that is a public service), 2) visitation exchanges are so hostile that my husband is withdrawn and quiet for the first few hours after we pick up the kid(s), 3) we want to exhaust all non-court options before hiring a lawyer and taking this in front of a judge.

We got confirmation from center that ex will be attending, but I don't know what to expect. I cannot be in the room with them (decision makers only), but it's also  good news since that means her aggressive, white knight BF cannot either. Husband is trying to make a game plan to stick to the issue of access denial no matter how much bs she spits. Anyone have experience in mediation with BPD? Does it ever do any good? If nothing changes, when should we hire attorney?
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livednlearned
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« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2016, 04:28:50 PM »

Hi Shananiginz,

It must be tough on you and your H to go through high-conflict exchanges, not to mention the kids.  What typically happens during those exchanges?

In terms of mediation, typically you can expect that the same behaviors present during the marriage and divorce proceedings will be there after, unfortunately.

Bill Eddy, an expert on high-conflict divorces, categories BPD severity three ways:

1) cooperative, not dangerous
2) not cooperative, not dangerous
3) not cooperative, dangerous

With dangerous meaning using false allegations, physical abuse, etc. How would you characterize your H's ex?

Also, is there a way you can find out if the mediator is trained in high-conflict psychopathology? Or just find out what kind of background he or she has?

The alienation is a whole other topic. Does SS have a therapist?
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« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2016, 04:44:10 PM »

In my DH's experience his uBPDex used mediation as an opportunity to vent her rage and blaming at him. The one thing she was absolutely not interested in was finding solutions to the actual issues.

DH went in with a list of the issues and ways he wanted to see each issue fixed and he tried very hard to stick to that. The mediator also tried to keep the BPDex on topic but it was nearly impossible. She didn't want anything fixed because fixing anything was letting DH "win" in her mind. I think her main reason for keeping mediation going for more than just one fruitless session was because it gave her an opportunity for face time with DH. BPDs cannot close a chapter and move on. So even though they had been divorced for seven years at that point it still felt fresh to his ex.

Someone else on this site has often pointed out that a bad mediator will often seek more concessions from the reasonable party because they know they can't get anywhere with the unreasonable party. Nothing needs to be binding and if it looks like it is going that way then he can always just get up and leave. Court is often more fair than anything a BPD would be willing to agree to.
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Shananiginz

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Posts: 4


« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2016, 08:03:27 PM »

Hi livednlearned,

Thank you so much for the reply.  It truly means a lot to me that there are others going through similar situations who are willing to lend their support.

In our exchanges during the past few years, X has been using that face-time with DH to unload 2 weeks worth of grievances.  Then BF comes to the door and unloads on DH, too. All the while, the kids are running up and down the stairs trying to listen in to the conversation and X has no concerns over them hearing her or BF disrespect DH.  During the last exchange, DH stayed in the car and just sent SD to the door. Well that just threw BF into a rage who yelled at us from the door with SD right there.  Since then, X has been doing her darndest to keep the kids away from us.  We will be requesting a neutral pick up/drop off location in mediation, btw.

X is probably a 2.5 in terms of BPD severity.  There have not been any false allegations since right after their separation, but we wouldn't put anything past her at this point.  Especially if she is feeling challenged due to our mediation request.  It really feels like she's gearing up for something big.

We were told in the mediation intake interview that the mediator would be trained in dealing with HCPs, but we won't find out anything else about him/her  before the appointment.  Since it is a public service, all the mediators are volunteers. Some are lawyers and some are therapists, but unfortunately we don't get any info beyond that.

SS does have a therapist, but you're right, that is a whole other issue
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Shananiginz

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Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner’s ex
Posts: 4


« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2016, 08:16:35 PM »

Hi Nope,

Thank you for taking the time to reply. Everything you said rings very true to us. We are trying to be realistic and optimistic at the same time, but it truly feels like this mediation is just the first stepping stone to a long court battle. Good news is that DH is fired up and doesn't feel as hopeless after I showed him the replies to this thread.

We had a new development this afternoon - we attended SS's soccer game (that X declined to mention; I found the schedule online) and surprised the heck out of X and her  BF.  After the game, DH went to say hi to SS.  X got to SS first, whispered in his ear, and walked away.  SS then proceeds to tell DH how angry he is at him for not responding to his text message about making the soccer team. Funny thing is, SS never texted DH about soccer... .X did! We are now certain that fighting for primary conservatorship of the kids is the right thing to do to get them out of the alienation cycle. 

Does anyone have advice on how to prove alienation is occurring? I've read posts saying that the court needs to see evidence of this. What would be admissible?
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soundofmusicgirl
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« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2016, 01:01:18 AM »

Unfortunately my DH also made the experience that mediation does not help at all. In the county we go to court mediation is required before court. It was a big joke. DH and his lawyer suggested 3 mediators and 3 different dates and each time BPDxw would cancel for some reason shortly before. She was also hung up on the fact that my DH would be attending via telephone (as we lived states away at that point). The mediator really did not care as he used skype and a seperate room to talk to each. That might also be something you can ask for. I know some mediators do not like to have both parties in the same room.

BPDxw did not agree to anything. The mediator mentioned to DH several times that he had to give her a "reality check" that she would not get any of the things in court she insisted on.

When preparing for mediation do not immediatley start out with what you really want to achieve. BPDs need to have the feeling to "win" (as someone already mentioned here). But be reasonable.

I completely understand your heartburn about the exchanges. We had the same problems. Our situation was that BPDxw refused to allow my DH to use his car seats that he organized and insisted he had to use hers. Of course she also did not allow him to install and de-install them in his car. So she had to do that at each exchange. Which took her about 30 min of grumbling about the car and how dirty we returned the car seats etc etc. After one exchange where she yelled at me and DH we said, enough is enough and told her we will only do exchanges at her local police station. That worked really well. She behaved and we could resolve the issues with the car seats as we simply brought ours and had the police inspect them Smiling (click to insert in post)

I would definitely find a neutral and public spot for exchanges. Maybe even see if you can pick up kids from school when it is your time? Or meet in a mall parking lot or some other public place where you have witnesses and she will be "motivated" to behave.
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livednlearned
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« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2016, 06:49:55 AM »

Does anyone have advice on how to prove alienation is occurring? I've read posts saying that the court needs to see evidence of this. What would be admissible?

This is tricky. You are trying to accomplish two things. One is to get her to comply with the court order. The other is to win the heart and soul of SS. They require different strategies.

Getting ex to comply with the court order will help solve the direction of the alienation a little -- you won't need to prove alienation per se for that. You just have to show a pattern of her obstructing the court order. It's also important that your H is squeaky clean and documents every attempt he makes -- best if it is brief, informative, friendly, firm (BIFF), a skill that Bill Eddy describes for dealing with hostile emails. And then prepare for court, if it comes to that.

Can you record the exchanges in your state? Some states have a one-party consent law, meaning you can record the other party without their consent. In some very high conflict cases, people here will hold up a recording device simply to get the other parent to dial things down during the exchanges. You may also be able to get well-child or domestic assistance from local law enforcement. Their job is simply to be there in case people act badly, altho they cannot enforce a civil court order. Talk to your step son's therapist about this, tho (and probably lawyer). It's pretty intense to have cops intervene in family affairs.

Have you read any of the books on alienation? Bill Eddy's book Don't Alienate the Child is one of the best, in my opinion. He offers ways to skillfully and subtly break the hold that the alienating parent has, while helping your child build emotional resilience. A two fer one  Smiling (click to insert in post).

Divorce Poison by Richard Warshak is also good -- he gives you phrases you can use depending on the different kinds of double bind scenarios an alienated child may present via the alienating parent.

And then Dr. Craig Childress has a blog and reading materials, plus some youtube videos and lately, a new book. It's very academic stuff but also explains what's going on in a way that makes a lot of sense.

Alienation is a way the BPD parent deals with her own unresolved negative emotions -- she externalizes them onto her child, and because she has an unstable sense of self and no boundaries, she insists that he cannot individuate and be a separate person with his own feelings and thoughts. Being a child who fears rejection from his mother, he goes along with this. That's why validating his feelings can be a powerful tactic to interrupt alienation. It steps outside the drama triangle his mom has created, and introduces a truth he knows -- that his feelings are different than hers. Saying to him, "How did it feel when mom said that?" After he tells you, "Mom says you just want me for child labor" gets him to focus on how her comments made him feel, instead of focusing on hurting you and your H as ex's special agent.
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Shananiginz

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What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner’s ex
Posts: 4


« Reply #7 on: December 13, 2016, 09:41:21 AM »

So we went to mediation yesterday.  BPDxw did show up, but wouldn't agree to anything DH asked for, namely neutral pick up/drop off location, having the kids for Xmas break (which he is supposed to per the order), and allowing SS to see a different therapist with DH (not her enmeshed therapist who has encouraged SS to cut off contact with DH, per X).  X was noticeably unnerved and asked to be in a separate room after 1 hour of being in same room as DH.  This occurred after he made a valid point regarding her denying access to the kids.  She says the kids don't want to go with DH on his weekends and she won't force them.  :)H asks her what she does when they don't want to do homework.  X then asked for a break and separate rooms.  

livednlearned - I bought ":)ivorce Poison" and wow, what a great recommendation.  I read it in a day and have been going back to it and highlighting important points since then.  I have a copy of Don't Alienate the Children and I agree - great advice and Bill Eddy is so helpful.  We watched some of his shorter mediation videos on YouTube and those helped DH prepare for what he experienced yesterday.  

So now what?  X stated SS will not be coming for Xmas break.  SD will come but only for 3 days (25th-28th).  We are supposed to have them both 16th-28th.  Should DH try to pick up the kids on the 16th anyway?  We are planning to hire a lawyer very soon, but not sure we can make it happen before Friday.  BTW, our state is a one-party recording consent state so we will have cameras rolling during any future exchanges. 
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livednlearned
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« Reply #8 on: December 13, 2016, 10:14:39 AM »

Sounds like things went as you would expect... .

If ex is already giving the court order the middle finger that will likely be a strike against her in court. Like always, document everything, and keep it well organized. If you can, consult with lawyers asap about what to do when the kids are being withheld. Consulting usually costs a few hundred dollars, and it can count toward a retainer if/when you decide to go that route.

Talk to several lawyers if you can, and tell them your long-term goals (ie. more custody? more visitation? other things in your mediation?) and ask them to outline a strategy, with tactics. Tactics might include custody evaluations, depositions, psyche evaluations, parenting coordinators (if your state uses them), coparenting counseling, etc.

Ask each of them what they suggest you do when mom denies visitation next week. Also, ask them what the judge is like who is in charge of cases in your county. Some judges are very intuitive, and go with their gut (for better/worse). Some are like robots and rule entirely on technicalities. It's good to know what the judge is like, and how they tend to rule on similar cases. Also, ask the lawyers how they have handled similar cases, and what kinds of outcomes have they had.

My lawyer also talked to me very frankly about money, which made me trust her. She told me not to send her every little thing (she charged more to open an attachment, for example), and to organize my own deposition binder to save money. I ended up working with her associate (who charged less) on routine things, and paid her for representing me in court (her trial skills were excellent). And also ask how long they take to return calls and emails.

Something else -- and this is a piece of advice that Bill Eddy confirmed for me -- judges are accustomed to seeing two people who need a third party to solve their problems. They see people with zero problem-solving skills day in, day out. They see a lot of emotion and hear a lot of excuses.

If you show up with solutions, and take Eddy's advice to heart, it can really stand out. Not just solutions, but consequences for non-compliance. Think like a judge. They don't want to see repeat customers. They want to hear reasonable solutions with consequences (like offending party pays legal fees, or any time denied gets added to the other parent's schedule, if your lawyer recommends that).

I know it's very emotional and so exasperating (not to mention expensive). We're here for you, and there is a lot of collective wisdom on these boards.

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