Dopamine, BPD and problems detaching.

[Julia S]

I’d already thinking about the emotions concerning attraction to and detaching from a pwBPD, but I hadn’t really thought about the brain chemicals involved since I was trying to work out why I became instantly and intensely obsessed with my BPD friend, as soon as he started idealising me. And I’d already worked out the culprit there was dopamine.

Now a forum member has mentioned evidence that we produce dopamine when we’re with a pwBPD.
Let’s look at what this would do:

Extra dopamine means lust and motivation and obsession and pleasure, but more than anything it means addiction. It doesn’t take long to get addicted – maybe only a few days – then you need your fix. And after a while there’s no pleasure reward, but the addiction stays.

Is this sounding familiar? With or without other reasons of emotion or compassion or duty or family obligation, the addiction to dopamine helps keep you in that situation.

Then you get discarded, or make a tough decision to detach. No more hits of dopamine. An addiction that’s not being fed. With a struggle you get through this time. Your dopamine has been lower than you’re used to during this time. That will produce depression and maybe anxiety. You most likely got anxiety when it was high too. No problem, your dopamine will sort itself out, right? Well it might not. If it’s been nudged higher by an external stimulus for a while, then your body has likely forgotten how to regulate it. So it’s lower than it should be.

And the effects of low dopamine? Well, there’s the depression, though you may have got used to that, or maybe compensated with other brain chemicals. But there are other symptoms. Things like feeling you’ve lost your zest for life, lost your interest in things, and your ability to concentrate and to learn. You maybe feel flat and without emotion. Have little interest in being with other people.

Is this sounding familiar?

So let’s assume your dopamine is off balance, can you do anything about it? Yes you can. Go onto a protein rich diet, and if that alone doesn’t work, take a supplement of L-tyrosine, and maybe also L-phenylalinine. These are amino acids, the building blocks of protein. I was prescribed them years ago by a naturopathic practitioner for anxiety and imbalanced blood sugar, there’s nothing scary about them.

Read up on dopamine and the food supplements if you’re going to try this route. And if it doesn’t work go to your doc and explain what has happened and the effect you think it has had. There are meds to help increase dopamine, but they’re usually prescribed for neurological problems where your body is unable to produce enough rather than got out of the habit.     

[Julia S]

Please note: I'm not a medical doctor but do have some knowledge of psychology and neurophysiology. This an attempt at a partial explanation and treatment, but anyone considering it should back it up with their own research.

[Skip]

Is this the clinical reference you are citing?

I watched a video the other day, explains that we get addicted to the dopamine that we produce when we are with pwBPD? I'm not a doctor so I don't know but this makes sense to me. I've had break ups in my past, nothing like this. It has to be a brain chemistry thing because I cannot break it on my own.

We generally ask members not to speculate on neuroscience but rather share and  discuss conventional resources on the matter.

In this case aren't you just discussing post-relationship depression?

Major types of antidepressants include:
Tricyclic antidepressants (TCAs), the first antidepressants used to treat depression. Monoamine oxidase inhibitors (MAOIs) are another early form of antidepressant. Selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs) are a newer form of antidepressant.

There are over the counter mood enhancement like 5-HTP, St. John's Wort, SAMe, and L-Theanine.

There are also lifestyle matters (exercise, healthy diet) and CBT (both clinical and self help).

Depression drugs like bupropion (Wellbutrin) and MAOI (Marplan, Nardil, Emsam, Parnate) affect neurotransmitter balance (dopamine, serotonin), but is it wise council to characterize depression treatment to an issue of dopamine levels?

Exploring depression on a more general basis may be more helpful and directing members to see a psychiatrist may be the most reliable path than trying to access specific imbalances in our brain chemistry.

[Julia S]

Skip, yes, that was the post I saw. It prompted me to do some more reading up on dopamine. But I've done plenty in the past.

Like I say, I do have some knowledge of neurophysiology and associated chemistry. This is not speculation, plenty of clinical research has been done on dopamine. I'm suggesting people who cite low dopamine symptoms as problems they can't get past should look into it. Sometimes, when our minds and bodies get out of balance, there are simple reasons with simple solutions which prevent us from properly healing. And if it is likely or even possible that this is happening for some people here, then they should certainly consider it rather than persevere with needless suffering.

IF anyone thinks they may have symptoms of low dopamine which are not remedied with a small change in diet, then they should consult their doctors. Because long term low levels of dopamine can lead to other problems.
A similar thing can happen with deficiency in B and D vitamins, leading to a vicious circle of depression and anxiety due to low serotonin. Again, it is not necessarily the initial cause - though it certainly can be - but it does tend to perpetuate a problem which is already there.

[enlighten me]

Not sure if the links still on the site but there was an article on how the brain of someone post break up was very similar to that of someone coming off cocaine. Cocaine increases the amount of dopamine by inhibiting the reuptake of it so greater concentrations are seen.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-mindful-self-express/201104/the-neuroscience-relationship-breakups

[Dutched]

Now a forum member has mentioned evidence that we produce dopamine when we’re with a pwBPD.
Let’s look at what this would do:

I think there is something missing in that thesis as that member says.

Dopamine is not related to ‘attachment to pwBPD’.
It is the normal love / ‘feel good’/ happiness drug produced by the brain when we are in love and are attached to a SO / kids.
I certainly would leave that exclusiveness and ‘evidence’ for BPD out.

Your dopamine has been lower than you’re used to during this time. That will produce depression and maybe anxiety.

At that moment, dopamine is still produced as it was previously, namely as were you still attached.
But something is missing. The attachment.
In simple words the (rational) brain knows, the heart still not.
So there is a conflict in your body, even on more than one level.

The brain needs to detach and therefore have to decrease the level of dopamine / love drug produced.
That takes time and is a very individual process complicated by not only emotional factors, but as well as biological and even the body itself needs to adjust.

But as neurotransmitters (dopamine, serotonin, adrenaline) interact we can’t focus on one of them ( at least IMO not in this case)
The lower level of dopamine alone makes on not depressed.
For that there is interaction with the neurotransmitter serotonin.
Decrease of the level of serotonin is linked with depression.

Now I mentioned brain and heart. Project that on the brain as it takes time to synchronise.  

Dopamine is produced in the frontal cortex
Within or just behind lies the prefrontal cortex, that is where the serotonin is produced.

The interaction of neurotransmitters takes time, new connections have to be made.
Connections to feel good without a SO/kids

Indeed as you write, once the production of dopamine drops, the effects will be visible.  

Myself not fond of pharma as family doctors and/or hospitals assume, based on your complaints, and prescribe without measuring (as they simple can’t) your, by them assumed, production of  neurotransmitters.
So was it a low level of dopamine or serotonin?  

Running stimulates dopamine, serotonin and even adrenaline (when you run long enough).
Over here doctors treat (better advise) patients with depression just to start walking, running and intensify activities instead of anti depressants.  
Many times on the board the advice is given: go to the gym, work in the garden, etc.

I think it is a very healthy way and afterwards nurture yourself with comfort food… (with omega3).

[Skip]

This is not speculation, plenty of clinical research has been done on dopamine.

 

I do have some knowledge of neurophysiology and associated chemistry.

Great. Let's post that work (from vetted sources) on the Video, Audio, Research Reviews Board and discuss it there.

Maybe we can start with your first statement about evidence that we uniquely produce dopamine when we’re with a pwBPD.

[Skip]

Not sure if the links still on the site but there was an article on how the brain of someone post break up was very similar to that of someone coming off cocaine.

It's here:

The Biology and Neuroscience of
Breaking Up

[Julia S]

That article only goes as far as saying the break up is like an addicted drug withdrawal, it doesn't pursue the biology further. I'm suggesting the likely brain chemical involved is dopamine, and that, certainly in some people, it may stay low. It may be entirely coincidence that some people here report symptoms exactly the same as for low dopamine a year or two on, but it may not. And if that is the cause of the symptoms persisting, then a slightly higher protein diet for a while may help. I could find an article about dopamine levels and diet tomorrow but not right now as it's nearly one in the morning here.

[Turkish]

A neuroscience conversation is best on the to Video, Audio, Research Reviews board with clinical publications to support the discussion. Thanks.   

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[Julia S]

To set the record straight:

I do have formal training in experimental psychology. This includes knowledge of brain physiology, function, chemistry.

This is backed up and kept up to date by close friends and family members who have formal training and several decades experience in psychiatry, psychotherapy, medicine, psychiatric nursing, biochemistry, and pharmaceutical research.

Neurotransmitters (eg serotonin, dopamine etc) are not just automatically produced. They require ongoing nutrients such as vitamins and amino acids (the building blocks of proteins). If we do not get enough of these nutrients, which gets increasingly likely as we get older, or if we have a restricted diet such as being vegetarian, that alone can prevent the mind and body functioning properly. Furthermore, problems such as anxiety can deplete supplies of these nutrients, which in turn causes more anxiety, leading to a vicious circle. If the neurotransmitters are raised eg by meds (eg antidepressants) this can lead to the body reducing its natural production of them, which can lead to problems if the meds are withdrawn too quickly.
Many things can affect our brain chemicals (neurotransmitters), and when, for whatever reason, they get out of balance, it sometimes takes more than changing our behaviour or how we think to restore the balance. It often also requires attention to diet, ensuring we get enough of the relevant nutrients, and an acknowledgement that depending on our age, gender, digestive function, and diet choice, sometimes what we consider a healthy diet alone is not enough, and we may benefit from a few basic supplements of vitamins, minerals and proteins.

All I am advocating here is that if anyone has done all the obvious things to restore their mood, they consider their diet, and look into whether changing or supplementing it with natural nutrients might help.