Guess what I found out last night?

[Lockjaw]

My GF said that during an argument we had over the summer that I called her a ___.

I straight up stone cold told her she was a liar. I didn't call my cheating first wife that, I didn't call my second wife that, even when she told me I made up the story about our son being sexually abused by her premarital son, and I have never ever in my life called a woman that. EVER! That is a line I have set for myself that I do not cross.

Yes I may cuss. But that to me is like hitting a woman. It's a no no! She must have had me confused with her ex. Or my ex wife's ex. They like that word. Not me.

I was so floored by that. It's not even a word I use. And I would expect if I ever called a woman that, that she would slap the taste out of my mouth.

Has this ever happened to any of you?

[hope2727]

Yes mine re-wrote history, put words in my mouth, twisted the words I did say etc etc etc. The saddest part for me is that he really believed all those things. To him they were real. Its a terribly sad disorder all the way around.

Stick to what you know. Remain calm and don't argue back. Just maintain that "no I never called you that". No need to argue or explain. Just stick to your calm unemotional guns. So to speak.

Good luck.

[Notwendy]

Say " I did not say that" and let it go. Don't give this more energy than it is worth.

Consider it either crazy thinking ( which you can not change ) or drama bait. Don't fuel the drama.


Use the pink elephant model. If someone called you a pink elephant- you would believe them? Would you defend yourself? Would you go on and on trying to prove you are not an elephant? Would you take it personally, get your feelings hurt? No, you would think the other person was way off base. You are quite certain you are not an elephant.

You are quite certain you did not say this. If there is nothing to defend, don't defend it. Don't take the drama bait.

[Grey Kitty]

Use the pink elephant model. If someone called you a pink elephant- you would believe them? Would you defend yourself? Would you go on and on trying to prove you are not an elephant? Would you take it personally, get your feelings hurt? No, you would think the other person was way off base. You are quite certain you are not an elephant.

This is "easy" because you don't have an emotional investment in NOT being a pink elephant. You aren't triggered by that accusation.

What you were accused of saying mattered to you and that triggered you. You have to work on the trigger yourself, so you don't get upset like this.

If you have a button like that... .you can't stop her from pushing the button. What you can do is disconnect the button so it doesn't set you off that way.

Also when you ARE triggered like that, the best thing you can do is notice it, so you can safely remove yourself--you know that you can't respond well, so protect both of you by making sure you don't lash out at her as a reaction.

[Notwendy]

The pink elephant idea is easy, which is why I use it as a measuring stick for my behavior. I know how I would react if someone called me that- I wouldn't feel triggered, or hurt or take it personally. I probably wouldn't add to the drama by starting to JADE. This is because - we most likely have a boundary- what is me, what isn't me. An elephant isn't me.

Many of us don't have good boundaries between what is me, and what isn't me when it comes to relationships. We can be susceptible to a shared reality with someone we are intimate with. But when someone has BPD- and believes feelings = facts, that reality can shift like a sailboat in waves. If we aren't clear about who we are, then our feelings and reality can shift with them. What we need is to be on smooth water no matter what waves they are on. To do that, we need to have a good boundary about what is being said to us- a filter- is this true about me or is this not true? If it is true, then we need to apologize, if not, then we don't have to accept it as being true and we don't have to react emotionally to it.

I think many of us share emotional triggers with pwBPD. One of them is the "I'm not good enough" one. We keep looking at our partners for assurance that we are good enough, but since they are unhappy with themselves, they can't give this to us consistently. We have to deal with this for ourselves. Each time our partners trigger this feeling is an opportunity to work on this. I think knowing this, we also can have some empathy for them when we see them get triggered. But we can not change someone else's emotional triggers. We do benefit from working on our own.

So when being accused of something- ask- is this true, is this not true?
If it is not true, then why do I feel I need to defend this?
What would I do if she called me a pink elephant? This is what I would do---

By using this model, we can learn new behaviors, not react emotionally and not add to the drama.

[Lockjaw]

I didn't dwell on it, I just matter of factly said there is no way I would ever call you that, and saying I did means you are lying.

I was just shocked she said I said it. And even worse, she probably thinks I did say it, although she did take it back later.

[Notwendy]

I think by not being over reactive to what she said - you handled that well. Maybe she thought it, but maybe not. Maybe she was baiting you-not in a malicious way but  as drama is a familiar exchange for some people. When we stay calm, we diffuse this.

Whatever someone else thinks, it helps to keep in mind that we can not control what someone else thinks. It is crazy making to be accused of doing/saying things we didn't say, but all we can control is our reaction to it.

[Lockjaw]

You are right and what helped is its just not something I would say. You can say I yelled, cussed, whatever and make a good case for that. But this, no way.

You could also be right about her baiting me. I don't always remember things. I get that. I am getting older, its easy enough. But this, still no way. I'd have to have been given a roofie or propophol or something where I was so out of it. Even then, its just not in my vocabulary.

She still tries to change the narative though. I say I don't want to argue, she says we are just having a discussion.  Whatever... .LOL!

[ortac77]

It does indeed get tiresome being told we said something when we did not. It is a symptom of their illness, I can never decide if they genuinely 'misremember' or are simply trying to push buttons. It is also quite often projection I believe, I am often told that I have said something which in fact is something my BPD partner has said!

Of course they seem to have their own strange dialogue in their own head and I am not privy to that, its sad but difficult and I find it best not to debate or reason just to acknowledge and exit!

[Notwendy]

I've been accused of saying/doing some things that I know I wouldn't do. I used to JADE to try to clear the accusation up. I was often upset that someone would think that of me. Now, I accept that if someone thinks this about me, I may not like that- but I can't control it and it doesn't mean it is true.

One can't tell if it is baiting on their part, but I can tell if it is bait to me. If I feel the urge to JADE, I assume that this is drama bait for me ( regardless of their intention). I disengage - making it about me, not them. " I hear what you are saying but I need to think about this for a bit" is a good response for me. It states that I heard you, but I need to get a grip on my thoughts and feelings before I respond. If pushed - repeat " I need to think about this".

[Grey Kitty]

Being accused of something you didn't do and wouldn't do is distressing. This is real.

Remember the pragmatic thing about it, though--nothing good will come out of a circular argument with a pwBPD to convince them that their accusation isn't valid. Instead you are more likely to get a full-on dysregulation if you keep at it!

Thus saying (once!) that you didn't and wouldn't say this, and refusing to further engage is the best you can do.

And work on remembering that you cannot control what sort of bizarre fabrications somebody else chooses to believe, and cannot change their mind. And let it go.

[Confused81]

I'm pretty new to the BPD world. My wife was diagnosed as bipolar and recently had been diagnosed as BPD. It's really hard to be accused of something that of things you haven't said or done. I struggle with being accused and Me choosing  to react because I feel like it's a direct attack on who I am as a person. I have found that if I tell her once calmly that I didn't do those things and if she proceeds to attack me I'll throw on some music that tends to calm her down in about 10 minutes she has calmed down and will start to process what has happened. I have never been apologized to in these cases but the music seems to really help her and also has started to keep me from reacting to the accusations.

[oshinko maki]

She may have known that the c-word usage accusation would hurt you and created her belief based on that. I think pwBPD sometimes at least have a good focused aim at how to hurt others.

[Lockjaw]

I just left her a few hours ago. Came to woods early to hunt. Guess I'll be here rest of week. Told her she needs to see therapist. She thinks one on one time fixes things. I said no it doesn't.


I'm just wrong and she is right. There is no changing it. I suck she's great.

[Notwendy]

Left as in broke up or left to go hunting?

[Lockjaw]

No I just took a break and to go hunting for a bit. I wish I could be out there today, but... .its raining and thundering.

I came back from the woods, loaded up her ATV on her trailer and her safe and took it back to her house. She wouldn't let me leave. Sat in my truck for 2.5 hours. I was so mad and frustrated. She wanted me to come inside, and I said no. i was in hunting clothes and just wanted to change and take a shower.

I told her she needs to work on boundaries. I guess she sees that if we are dating, there should be no boundaries. I said I wanted to know whats he felt like being on a team meant. What did I need to discuss with her. She won't say. She says I will use that to tell her its none of her business if its not on a list. I said i wanted to take it to a therapist and get an opinion. I said if you won't give me one then I will ask a therapist and find out.

Her son has been having bad seizures, which is making things worse. She just went home a little bit ago. This relationship is dying. Nothing I do makes her happy. She doesn't answer questions. She doesn't want to see anyone.

I am still a child who runs when there is an argument. Maybe if I was heard, it would be easy to stay. Maybe if she didn't excuse everything, it would be easy to stay.

I asked her today before she left what she liked about me. She hemmed and hawwed around. Didn't really say. I said ok, what do you admire? She didn't want to answer that either.  Said she would leave something off. I said its not a test, I just want to satisfy myself. She wouldn't answer, so I said, ok that is what I needed to know.

I told her that in talking with her, she had made 4 or 5 statements to me that indicated she had a low self worth.

All she does is complain. Never makes any suggestions about what we could do. She thinks if she needs me to do something for her, and she has pissed me off, I should do it anyway.

I am asking a therapist about this one. She seems to think its fine to just take food. Last night I bring in a bag of microwave popcorn. I didn't even open it and she grabs it. I was like what are you doing? She said, I told you that is one of my big pet peeves.  I said what is? Your pet peeve is just taking food away from someone whenever you please? She didn't want any after that. Sulked.

She does this all the time. Takes my drink. Takes food. She would take a bowl of ice cream out of my hand and help herself. Never asks. Just takes. To me that seems like arrogance. Demanding. Or a lack of respect. She doesn't think she should have to ask.

I don't know. I wish I had gotten up and gone into work today. I think it would have been better for me.  I see the therapist I picked out this week. She says she thinks she can help me with my issues.

It depresses me that no matter what I do, its never right. And she never sees her part in things. She is a sad unhappy woman, and I tend to just make it worse sometimes.

[Grey Kitty]

Boundaries are a great place to start. First accept something--if she has BPD, then she has poor boundaries, or no boundaries at all.

I told her she needs to work on boundaries.

No, she doesn't have to work on her boundaries. And if you try to force her to, or convince her to, then you have poor boundaries too.

Your boundaries are to protect yourself.

Her boundaries are to protect herself.

From your perspective, it is much easier to deal with people who have good boundaries than people who have poor boundaries... .but her poor boundaries are hers. Accept them as they are, and do not try to change them.

She does this all the time. Takes my drink. Takes food. She would take a bowl of ice cream out of my hand and help herself. Never asks. Just takes. To me that seems like arrogance. Demanding. Or a lack of respect. She doesn't think she should have to ask.

What you can do is enforce your own boundaries. I like to describe them in this form:

"If you do X, I will do Y to protect myself from consequence Z." Note that you are not at her mercy here--it is your choice to take action to protect yourself, and you can choose that whether she wants you to or not.

This can be stated in a different form, what I call a rule. That would be like ":)o not do X." Note that when stated that way, she has the choice to follow the rule or break the rule, and you are at the mercy of her choice.

So... .she takes your food or drink without asking, and you feel violated or disrespected.

I'm sure you've asked her not to do this, or told her not to do this before. Probably a thousand times. And it makes no lasting difference, if it makes any at all.

Getting into a physical fight to take your food back from her won't help either, so don't do that. Probably will result in spilled beer or something anyways.

If you can take it out of her reach, do so. Even if you can't, I'd suggest you tell her that you won't eat with somebody who takes your food.

And if she persists, make it a point to eat and drink away from her. At least for a while. Perhaps give her a chance again, days later, being ready to take space like this again.

This may come up in more challenging situations--your protection consequence may be leaving a restaurant in the middle of a meal, which would be uncomfortable to say the least. (You might avoid eating in public with her for a bit while you are sorting this out.)

Hopefully she will learn to ask instead of taking. If so, think about it before you answer. You might feel like sharing in some way. Or maybe you don't. But try to answer based on how you feel about sharing, instead of trying to "teach" or "punish", if you can.

[Lockjaw]

I am confused why someone would think its ok to just take something from someone like that.

I know I have a funky thought process, but to me, it just seems like she sees herself as special, or entitled. That she has rights. You know?

I would never and have never taken food or anything away from a girlfriend or wife. I would ask for it, but not just take. And the thing with the ice cream is it was cookie dough, so she would not only take the bowl, but help herself to the biggest chuck of cookie dough in it. Rather than just get her own bowl of it, which is what I would do.

So needless to say, I don't buy or eat ice cream anymore.

She has no problem drinking my drink down to the bottom either. I would never do that either. Maybe its a woman thing, she thinks the man should suffer, not the woman? I don't know... Its very baffling to me.

And because she is so brazen about it, it really is hard to temper a response.

It is like she thinks she has access to everything. I mean everything. If she wants it, I have to give it to her. Period.

[pallavirajsinghani]

She shows poor impulse control.  This inability of self control and lack of self discipline to a point where simple acceptable civilized, courteous behavior is impossible for her, could be a symptom of undiagnosed ADD at the very least, could be anxiety, could be due to any number of reasons... .

Bottom line is that it is indeed indicative of something serious that needs attention.

So, one way to handle this is to "detach" yourself and look at the emotion underlying the action, and not just the action itself.

If you look at her behavior in this way, what patterns do you see?  Do you see for instance, that she is more dysregulated when she is physically exhausted?  Are there any discernible patterns of circumstances that result in such behaviors?

[waverider]

maybe she is afraid she is missing out and is attempting to reassure herself that she has the option by demonstrating it. You not preventing it validates that right.

ie. "I can have that if i want to, it is my choice, my control, not your control by witholding... see I will prove it"

Fear of not being in control.

[Grey Kitty]

I am confused why someone would think its ok to just take something from someone like that.

I know I have a funky thought process, but to me, it just seems like she sees herself as special, or entitled. That she has rights. You know?

We can speculate on WHY she does this, or why she feels this way, but it won't help you, Lockjaw. Perhaps it is something that was modeled in her FOO that she picked up on... .or something that she's reacting to and trying to do the opposite of from her FOO. In which case, hearing about it might be really interesting if you could cultivate a genuine interest in this aspect of your wife. (Not just "what is wrong with her"

As I said, knowing why won't help you much, and wondering why won't help you at all. If it really bothers you, you can choose to enforce boundaries to protect yourself from it. Or you can accept that it is just a weird and annoying thing she does, which you put up with.

Choosing your battles is a good idea, and I don't know if this is one you want to choose. So is learning to enforce boundaries so you can win at least some of them.

[Lockjaw]

I hear you. I always do that, want to know the "why" of everything. I guess I feel like if i know why then I would understand.

To other poster, she does have ADD, but its not an impulse control issue. It is more of an issue of she thinks that people who date or are married have "priviledges" for lack of a better word, and she of course says she made this one clear up front. That, however, isn't entirely accurate. She put it forth as a sharing issue, as in, if we were out and I was eating a steak, and she wanted a bite of it. She didn't say, hey, we will be out, and I will take your plate away from you before you get to even have a bite of your steak, and I will cut off the piece I want and eat it first.

So there is a big difference in what she says, and her actions. But you can't tell her that. For her, there is ALWAYS a reason why what she did is ok.

I have a similar issue with her and my house. She was complaining about it being a mess. Well when you look around my room, there are her clothes laying on a chair. There is her makeup in the bathoom on the vanity that is nasty according to her. Her sink she uses is dirty. The kitchen counter has grated cheese on it from her. Often she leaves a cup of her almond milk sitting on the counter, or a plate on my headboard. The garage is a mess, yet it had her ATV, her trailer and a big safe in a box that belongs to her in it.

So I took her ATV, trailer and safe back. Said if I needed a trailer, I would buy my own, or... .figure a way to load my atv in my truck. So now of course I took all that back to HURT HER.

And me getting my own trailer is spiteful. Really its not. With her mess out of my garage, I can just leave my ATV on a trailer and back it in.

So I never have a level playing field. I never have a person who hears my point of view. I have to jump through all these hoops for her. It is only when I pull way back that she will decide she doesn't want to lose me. So I never really win. I never really come out ahead. And I would just like to every once in a while.

And it isn't just her, it just seems like that is the kind of woman I end up with. The kind that can never say, I see your point. Or care enough to hear what I say, and tell it back to me to make sure they understand.

I am the kind of guy who accepts her autistic son, who has seizures as is. I know its a lifelong commitment. I am not afraid of it, and I would take him if something happened to his family in a minute. I think that makes me a pretty good man. Be nice to feel that way sometimes.

Not just a F up who needs her to tell me what I need to fix all the time. I am accepting the fact I won't be heard. I am accepting that she has to make me bad so she feels less bad. I am trying to adjust to her mouth. It's hard though, and I just wish someone, somewhere, saw what I am. That they could hear me, truly hear me.

[Grey Kitty]

One of the things I've read here many times is "Nothing changes without changes."

Lockjaw, if you aren't willing to change your behavior, your way of dealing with your wife, she won't change hers. I guarantee it. Her "system" which includes making everything your fault, and blaming you for it works for her. She doesn't have to think about how she's contributing to problems or causing them. First she gets distracted from her issues by blaming you. Then she gets distracted by fighting with you over it.

I'm not saying that it is healthy for her, just that it is the best coping mechanism she has, and she will keep using it as long as you participate, which is exactly what you are doing.

If you start using tools like boundary enforcement, her "system" will stop working, and she will have no choice but find something new. It is up to her whether she picks something better or something worse, but if you are consistent, after a bit she will try something different too.

Are you ready to risk changing the game, or do you want to keep on venting?

[Lockjaw]

I would love to change it, but no idea really how. She's smart, probably smarter than I am, so... .I don't know what would work. It would be nice to find something that minimizes the drama for me.

She has an answer for everything. Me not arguing is me running away like a child. I don't think as fast on my feet. And that triggers her abandonment issues, which makes it worse for me.

Then how do you deal with questions? Like she asks me what's wrong? I say nothing. She says, yes there is, you are to quiet. Well the reason I am quiet is obvious to people here, but I can't say that to her.

There is a lot of info here, especially to the right, but it isn't in a format that is easy for me to sift through.

So what do you say to someone like that? Hey, if you want to argue, I am not speaking to you until you can calm down. Let me know when you are calm? She doesn't hear me, so how do I deal with that issue? What I say, or how I feel doesn't matter. She only cares about what she wants. And I don't want to be sucked dry giving her what she wants and getting nothing back. That is how I feel now.

I guess whatever I do, I need to be prepared for the result.

[Grey Kitty]

There's another saying I like here: Don't fight them at their level. They will meet you down there, and beat you with experience.

I'd suggest you start with two (related) boundaries to enforce with her, and I'd word them like this. Note that this is for YOUR benefit. I don't recommend stating them this way to her:

"I will not accept verbal/emotional abuse."

"I will not get trapped in circular arguments about how her behavior is justified or mine is wrong."

Here's how I see it happening. I've been there and I've gotten out of it.

You and she are talking, eating, or whatever. It started out reasonable, perhaps friendly. Somewhere along the way, your heart started to pick up in fear. Or somewhere it went south, and you are feeling attacked. Since you say she is faster on her feet this way, I'm guessing that you got outmaneuvered somehow, and just noticed that it is too late already.

Yeah, it would be nice to catch on earlier, but you didn't. Well, you've noticed now, at least!

What you do is disengage, and make it about you, not about her. Say something like this:

"I can't talk about this now." or
"I'm too upset to talk about this now."

She says or does things like this:

She has an answer for everything. Me not arguing is me running away like a child. I don't think as fast on my feet. And that triggers her abandonment issues, which makes it worse for me.

Then how do you deal with questions? Like she asks me what's wrong?

She's trying to keep you engaged, keep you fighting. I doubt she's aware of why she's doing it, but here's how it works:

She's got feelings she can't cope with. (Probably a lot of shame among others.) She projects things onto you, or she picks a fight with you. Now instead of having her own feelings and not knowing what to do, she's attacking you--it may not be "fun" but it worked--it kept her from finding those other feelings she can't deal with.

If you engage with her, she will find a way to keep it a fight. It is the "best" thing she can do at the time.

Chances are you will have to leave the room to disengage with her, as she will keep trying to pull you in.

She might even chase you around the house. You may need to leave the house for a while.

I remember several times I went out the door, trying not to shout, and trying not to slam it as I left saying "If I stay here any longer I'll say or do something that I'll regret." My wife at the time couldn't really deal with her own anger--her way of coping was to push my buttons until I got angry... .and I have a slow fuse... .but eventually I would be screaming at her if I let her keep picking at me long enough. Yours may be a bit different in what or how she does it... .but the lesson for you is the same. Get yourself out of range, no matter how you do it. Quickly is better than cleanly, if you have to choose between the two!

And when you disengage, she WILL feel abandoned. She will feel horrible and blame you for it.

Here's one big tip: You don't have to convince her that you are right and she is wrong about this--she thinks you should stick around and fight. You think you should leave and get yourself out before you both hurt each other more.

All you have to convince her is that you WILL do this, whether she thinks it is right or wrong, and she cannot change your mind.

You convince her this through consistent actions, not through words, not by explaining.

Please give this a try. Next time, post how it went. We will help you see what you did right. And help you see what you could have done better. Don't expect it to go perfectly. It doesn't have to. Better is enough, and you can build on that.

[Lockjaw]

So to make sure I understand. I am, in essence, not going to be heard. My points won't be taken into consideration, no matter what I do, so the best thing I can do, if that is reality, is just not argue, and walk away. Perhaps through that she learns that saying things that aren't nice will result in her not being able to talk to me or be around me?

I am slow to anger, and generally don't remember well what starts an argument after a week or two. All I know about this is what is starting them is her mouth. She says stuff. I used to handle it well. But a lot has happened. If I can catch myself, I do much better. But if I am nice, she will keep on. She wants to provoke me so she can say I was ugly too. So if I can keep that from happening, then she has to face her issue. 

I will try to work on this with her and see what I come up with. Thanks for the advice.

One other thing I don't want is her telling me how I feel. I have gotten more stern about that.

[Grey Kitty]

So to make sure I understand. I am, in essence, not going to be heard.

Pretty much, but that's not how I would say it.

She doesn't have the capacity to hear you, to consider your feelings, because she cannot manage her own feelings. They are screaming at her inside her head too loudly for her to hear you and understand your side or your feelings, or validate you.

Learn to validate yourself. As in trust your own beliefs and feelings, even when she tells you otherwise.

And find other people who have the capacity to validate you, as she can't. I'm guessing that your family doesn't have many (any?) people in it who can. Perhaps you have a friend who can, or can build that kind of friendship. (And I mean a platonic friendship, whether with a man or a woman)

BTW, most people just don't get what living with a pwBPD puts you through behind closed doors, as you likely realize. This community is safe for that. You have better odds looking for other friends to support you in other ways. Perhaps somebody to go hunting or fishing with?

One other thing I don't want is her telling me how I feel. I have gotten more stern about that.

Oh yeah, that was one of my hot buttons too. My response became "I will not listen to you telling me what I'm thinking or feeling."

Followed by whatever distance I needed to get to stop.

[Lockjaw]

Ok thanks. She blew me up last night. I caught myself in talking to her and just stopped and said " I can't talk to you this way".

I went and ate, she called me right when the bartender brought me my meal. When I was done I went to a sporting goods store and talked to a guy at the gun counter, and another customer, which lifted my spirits.

I need friends, that would help. My best man friend told me to put her on the road.

It helps when I go to the hunting club and can talk to some of the guys. Even though we are all different, its just good to get some male bonding.

I have to learn a new way to deal with her. And I told her I was tired of being a people pleaser. I said that has not gotten me anywhere in life. I wish I could tell her how I feel and she understand it. I swear I think every woman I have ever been with has done me the same way. I focus on doing things for them, and get used up. Then I get upset because I feel neglected.

Thanks for talking me through it. I need a picture sometimes. That is how I learn. Way more visual.

[oshinko maki]

I focus on doing things for them, and get used up. Then I get upset because I feel neglected.

I did the same, once working about full time on GF's phd research (for free) even. I stopped that before meeting and marrying pwBPD, but some connection is there maybe. We want to be of help, be idolized, and are all-too-comfortably used to being abused.

[Grey Kitty]

I'm glad this helped.

Let me ask you more specifically how this went?

She blew me up last night. I caught myself in talking to her and just stopped and said " I can't talk to you this way".

If you can post the full dialog leading up to you stopping it, there may well be some more lessons for you buried in it that you may not have seen, or perhaps earlier signs in the conversation for you to respond to or things to pay attention to.