Where do I go from here

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

This would be a first posting.   I have been subject to the blame and criticism for more years than I can remember.  I have been sucked into the abyss when I have tried to defend myself and only look silly.  My spouse is in the category of high functioning.  There have been some suicidal threats or "blackmail hints" to by myself and young adult children.  The kids see it and they do support, but as happens so many times, they love us both. 
More than ready to have this relationship of 32+ years end.  However, I do feel an obligation to get her help, which she is more than likely never do.

How do you move forward when so stuck

[ACObound]

This would be a first posting.   I have been subject to the blame and criticism for more years than I can remember.  I have been sucked into the abyss when I have tried to defend myself and only look silly.  My spouse is in the category of high functioning.  There have been some suicidal threats or "blackmail hints" to by myself and young adult children.  The kids see it and they do support, but as happens so many times, they love us both. 
More than ready to have this relationship of 32+ years end.  However, I do feel an obligation to get her help, which she is more than likely never do.

How do you move forward when so stuck

[Larmoyant]

Hi ACObound, I’m sorry for what brings you here, but would like to welcome you to BPD Family  . You’ve come to a great place to help you get ‘unstuck’. Although each situation is different we truly understand what you are going through and there is support and resources here that can help you. I’d encourage you to keep reading and posting and in your own time, as you work through all the emotions, things will become clearer. Welcome.

[Lostman]

I am in the same spot.  29 years married.  lots of abuse from my wife.  stayed for the kids.  for myself I have decided to make 2017 a year of change.  the next time she throws one of her little "digs" at me or speaks disrespectfully to me I am going to politely tell her to never speak to me in that manner again, ever.  I am going to start two lists one listing the things I have done to contribute to the situation, and a second listing the wrongs that I perceive that my wife has committed. I don't know if this will help but I need to be sure that I account for my shortcomings and sins.  I am not a bad man, I am just a man, I make mistakes but I also have a lot to offer and have done a lot of good in this life. I do not deserve to be constantly criticized or ridiculed or treated like a small child.  I am a mechanic by trade one day I rotated the tires on my daughters car, when I was done my wife came up to me and asked me "are they tight are they going to fall off, did you check them"?  I have changed tires on race cars where a mistake would be disaster, no one ever questioned my ability or workmanship. I do not know what the future will bring but all things in this world change, nothing stays the same.  look at your situation and add up the plusses and minuses.  only you can make decisions that affect your well being.  only you can be the agent of change, whatever that may be.   I can really talk a good story but I am stuck right where you are, but I have decided that 2017 is a year of change.  what kind of change I don't know but change for sure.  good luck please let us know how you feel writing it down and letting it out helps.

[ACObound]

Thanks for you input. we do have alot in common.  I identified with your statement.  " I am not a bad man, I am just a man, I make mistakes but I also have a lot to offer and have done a lot of good in this life."  I feel the same.  I would try to add to your year of change and add hope.  There has to be hope.  Not that she will change, but that you can take care of yourself.  I know how difficult it is.   I've tried to write down shortcoming and sins, plans, notes of changes I will make etc.  For me, to often they did not come from me but rather things that came from her that if is said it... .just right... .just the way she wanted, all would be well.  i mean if have gone through one heck of a lot of notepads!.  I see great value in what you are doing, as long as it is for you, not derived from someone else's ideas.  The list may  be shorter than you think.
Letting it out and finding people who share the same spot, as sad as that is, hugely helpful to me.  There are days that I find myself starting to believe what she tells me.  I have heard a lot of things like your tightening lug nut story.  Those I have gotten better at ignoring.  Its the ones that I was an absentee parent, a horrible influence etc.   The kids see it, mostly.  They are young adults now, and have a life of their own.  I see them less and less with the situation I am in.  Not that they don't want to see me, they do.  They have set boundaries(a good thing) and I respect that.  I am still struggling with what will be here reaction if I got to see them.  THere can be no us going to see therm.   2017 is a year of hope and things will change.

[formflier]

ACObound,



Am I correct that you would like to go visit your kids?

Can you make a list of 2-3 other things that you would like to do this year.  Changes to your life that you can make?

I think that would be a good starting point.

FF

[Lucky Jim]

However, I do feel an obligation to get her help, which she is more than likely never do.

Hey ACObound, Needless to say, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make the horse drink.  Same goes for your W.  Those suffering from BPD are highly unlikely to seek help for their disorder, despite your best efforts.  Suggest you let go of the outcome concerning help for her, which is beyond your ability to change/control.  Suggest you consult the Serenity Prayer as needed.

LuckyJim

[ACObound]

Hi Lucky Jim
Good suggestion as that is where I am sure the answer lies.   Complication with that, I am a son of an alcoholic.   Experienced and witnessed some not so pretty stuff.  This has been more than suggested that this is the root of "our" problem.   I have no doubt that this has had an effect on my adult life.  I long reconciled this experience within myself and with my now departed dad.   

I have been called a narcissist, been labeled as misogynistic,( I work in a high level position that is dominated by maybe 80% women) been  compared to numerous sociopaths(including one that put bodies in trunks) etc.     This has been really going on at this intensity for the last 5 years but dates back 25 years.   
There have been numerous mistakes I have made, some pretty stupid and some not so but was convinced they were.   

When I fantasize about 2017... .it is looking for an apartment and moving on.   However, I always seem to suck it up and look for that one moment when the door will open and the sun will shine.  I have never shouted nor even suggested that she may have BPD.  I can only imagine the rage. 
So I am still in the abyss where do I go from here

FF
It is a good starting point.  Visit kids more often(esp when the ask, alot  is the first thing on my list.   I will add to the list

[Lucky Jim]

Hello again, ACO, The reality is that the sun doesn't shine for long and then the BPD hurricane hits again, or at least that was my experience.  No, I don't recommend that you suggest to her that she may have BPD because that is likely to be poorly received.  Best to leave the diagnosing to professionals -- not that she will listen, anyway.  What are your gut feelings?  That's a good place to start.  Yes, you're in the toxic BPD soup and it's your task to get yourself back on solid ground.

LuckyJim

[smallroom]

Reading all of this I can relate so much.  I have been with my gf for a much shorter time and am a bit younger but it's all the same stuff.  Everything ends up being my fault for a few days until the quick shift and suddenly she is desperate to see me.  I actually did tell her what I think she has and she was receptive to it at first.  I wish I had convinced her to get treatment right there and then but for a week and a half everything was fine and it just slipped by.

As frustrated as I am with the situation I keep trying to shift my perspective.  Seeing this as a challenge.  An opportunity. I grew up with a mother I am now suspecting had/has the disorder.  Both parents were physically hard on my brothers and me with Mom almost always being the rescuer in the end, even if she was the one doing the hitting.  I am just now confronting my dependency issues and this situation is putting them right into the spotlight.

Definitely do what you need to do for yourself.  Use the situation as a tool to become more skillful.  Their criticism can only hurt if the wound is already there.  Investigate closely in yourself what those insecurities are. They are not you and you can heal.  This can make you stronger, just need to have the courage to do it. We all believe in you here.

[ACObound]

Lostman
Wondering if your listing has put some clarity in your life.  Did you make any decisions?  I dwecided to do something similar and in addition decided to put positive hope(again mind you) in my mind.  I wrote positive(hope) notes on the white board which was set up for just that purposes,  I do believe without hope... .you have nothing.  Truely was not trying to cause a rage or blame but just hope.  It was met with you will hear from my lawyer after an  an hour long ( I had to stop and protect myself after an hour,,,it usually can go longer) rant how everything in the world that is bad is my fault.  so we will see.  but I think I'm ready,
Can you share where your kids are in all this?

[ACObound]

Hey smallroom
"As frustrated as I am with the situation I keep trying to shift my perspective.  Seeing this as a challenge"
For what it is worth.  You seem to have seen alot of "stuff" as I did.  If you are anything like me, you have that voice in the back of your head that says,,,bring it on, I've had worse.  Not so sure, the physical was easy compared to the emotional roller coaster that you are challenging.  I believe one can do whatever they set their mind and never, never, never give up.   25 years later... I am trying to reconcile in my head, is this giving up, OR as a brother keeps telling me  get busy living or get busy dying.  Always wonder am I wearing out my welcome with the family I have left.   

[Lucky Jim]

I believe one can do whatever they set their mind and never, never, never give up.   25 years later... I am trying to reconcile in my head, is this giving up,

No, it's not about giving up.  BPD, like any other emotional or mental disorder, is extremely complex and irrational.  I'm a smart guy and thought I could crack the BPD code, but BPD proved too much for me.  In my view, there's nothing admirable about persevering in a Lose/Lose situation in which one is the object of someone else's abuse.

LuckyJim

[ACObound]

You're right.  I am more stubborn than most. I looked at apartments today.  right now going from a 3600 sq ft house to a 832 sq ft apartment seems like a slice of heaven.

[ACObound]

May soon move this to Detaching posts.   Latest round is that she is calling the attorney.  again conflicting thoughts on this... .really after 36+ years of being together?   How is this possible.  Then again has been threatened before usually followed up with a distortion campaign threat at my work.   Found an article that resonated with me about about uBPDw .   
"Being the victim feels good... .but guess what... .the world largely doesn't care, so you need to get over yourself,  Yes, you're special, yes your feelings matter, but don't confuse with "your feelings matter"  to your feelings should override all else, and nothing else matters.  Your feelings are just one part of this large thing we call live, which is interwoven and complex and messy."
In every moment, you have the choice to make- to continue to feel bad about another person's actions, or start feeling good.  You need to take responsibility for your own happiness and not put such power into the hands of another person. 
Focus on the present  the here and now  and joy and hope'
Its time to let go of the past.
Thought this article should be left out for my uBPDw.,.,... .then I realize I think its speaking to me.

This possible soon to be separation I use to say is devastating... .but is it? I still am troubled by it feels like giving up,.,,failing,,,



Formflier... .added to the list   1) trip planned to see kids ,,mid jan
                                               2) family reunion this weekend(come from a large family) will get closer to ones that I have been pushing away.
                                                3) And this is the easy one, trip early spring cycling tour to Colorado.  There is nothing that can't be improved upon when your are on a bicycle

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMciyWyugKY   ( I'm a fan... .a little corny... perhaps,,,but I like it

[formflier]

 
Are you making a choice? 

Have you communicated one... .or hopefully several pathways for your wife to remain with you?

Have you communicated that your desire is to stay together in one of the ways you see "working"?


Two people are required for a relationship.  While everyone realizes that it will never be 50/50 fair, there is also a place where one partner carries to much... .or compensates too much for the other partner.

Generally most of the "nons" on here end up in the category of "doing too much" for the other person.

I'll wait on your answers to my first questions before going any further.

FF

[ACObound]

FF
I will try to navigate thru your questions and tell me if I am answering your questions.   I am making a choice(I think) in that, the text that I got was to inform me that ... .had called the counselor we had been seeing to cancel future sessions,  2nd couselor we have stopped seeing.  I think this one was a last resort,  Which I did communicate to my wife.   I have continued (2 years) to see an individual therapist and have encouraged(not demanded) that see one also.   I have communicated many times that I would like to stay together and tried to explain what that would need to look like and understanding that her needs are important also.
Not sure if that is answering your questions or rambling,

[Lostman]

Over that past two days my last two turned 18.  I was out with one of them on an errand and she asked me, "why is mommy so mean", "why is she always threatening us", doesn't she realize that she is just pushing us away.  At times they seem to appreciate their mother but there is always some type of meanness from her.  Just this morning my wife told me that one of our daughters wants to go out and be "a Kardashian", she wants to go out and be a stripper.

There is nothing to support such an allegation.  On new years eve my daughters came home at 11:30 to spend midnight with us and their grandparents.  They are good kids, NHS members, accepted to two state colleges already but my wife talks about me to them like they are the spawn of satan.  I think they know where the bear s**t in the woods.

I spoke to my therapist yesterday, she is going to send me the names of some lawyers that have experience dealing with high conflict females.

As for my children, they are going to have to accept the fact that they have a mother and a father who both love them, they just will not be able to visit them in the same place.  I am going to say something to them like " I have made this decision because I choose not to be abused any longer".  Because that is what it is, abuse.

I move forward with the year of change in 2017.  If I continue on my current path I know where it will lead.  That is not a fun place.

[Lostman]

I see from some other replies that someone talks about living in the present.  I saw an article somewhere the other day that spoke about how some of the greatest successes of our lifetime were made possible because someone chose to focus on WHAT COULD BE OR WHAT MIGHT BE POSSIBLE not on what is today.  I have kind of decided to take that thought process into my being.  I have put the links to two articles from Kelly Holly below.  Her thoughts in these matters are very sobering.  I have read her book and could sometimes only read a little at a time because I realized that her examples of abuse matched my experience exactly.

I have come to realize that my whole person has "changed".  I probably have some PTSD because I spend my days "trying not to do anything wrong".  Because I don't want any more criticism.  I feel like I am dying a death of 10000 cuts and I am at the point where my entire body has been cut, now, even the tiniest new "cut" brings great pain because it is a cut on top of a cut.  That is why 2017 must be a year of change.


www.healthyplace.com/blogs/verbalabuseinrelationships/2011/05/how-to-stop-verbal-abuse-part-6-wrap-up/


www.healthyplace.com/abuse/verbal-abuse/your-verbally-abusive-wife-what-can-you-do/

[Lostman]

I see in your last reply you asked her "many times" to try and save the marriage.

I did the same thing when she made her threats to leave.  I used to plead with her telling her "we made this pledge in front of God, the vows we took, we have a family, we must try to work this out.  It just emboldens them, they think you will never leave no matter how hard they abuse you, it puts you right where they want you, to be a whipping boy for everything. 

Maybe a week age she asked me ":)o you want a divorce, is that what you want"?  It took everything I had not to say yes lets start today, because my therapist, my priest, everyone that helps me navigate this situation says "get your ducks in a row, don't tip your hand until you are ready".

This is good advise because it protects me, and gives God a little more time to work a miracle.  So I am marching forward with different thoughts in my mind and different plans for the future... .

[formflier]

FF
I will try to navigate thru your questions and tell me if I am answering your questions.  

You answered them.

Stay big picture with me. 

You are communicating to your pwBPD that you want to communicate and work on your r/s.

What communication are you getting back?   Not the details... .but the big picture.   Has your pwBPD decided to work on the r/s or not?

FF

[SamwizeGamgee]

Hi.  Welcome. 
I am just going to described what has, and is, working for me.  I find that in many cases since our abusers are similar, the victims survivors also can share what they have in common. 

I kept a journal.  At first it was to keep track of my parenting time and efforts - if it came up in a divorce issue for custody.  But, my journaling then turned into a sanity tracker.  I finally had a record I made, on my own, that described her rages, manipulations, blame, anger and so forth.  Then, my journal became a place for me to talk about my feelings - a skill I didn't have really until I tried, and tried again. 

I read.  I read most of the major books referenced around here about BPD.  I read about emotional abuse, verbal abuse, father's rights, divorce, parenting, parenting through divorce, mindfulness, meditation, wellness, depression.  I stick to mostly PhD-types of authors, or ones with extensive clinical / therapy work.  There's a lot of near-trash psychology and self-help books out there, so pick wisely if you so choose to read for your own health and wellness.  High on list of recommendations for you would be "Emotional Blackmail" by Susan Forward.  She coined the acronym FOG for Fear Obligation and Guilt.  The FOG keeps us stuck and gives control to your abuser(s).  That needs to stop.

I forgave myself.  We are all human, and as a guy, I think I played at a disadvantage when faced with an abusive wife or girlfriend.  I believe that men, in Western culture at least, have to overcome an indoctrination of obligation and guilt, and not being fluent in feelings and emotions - that leads to depression, anger, drinking, abusing, and so forth.  Learn to love yourself.  You can't handle challenges when you're at half-strength.  You have an obligation to your kids to be healthy, and help them be on their way to being safe and healthy. 

I'll depart from some common advice.  I don't believe that you have an obligation to "do everything" in order to save the marriage.  I thought I did, and found it to be an endless quest.  I delayed for a long time thinking about what I would tell God.  I arrived at the point that I accepted life as it was, and yes, my choices led up to much of it.  But, if getting married was a mistake, I decided that staying married was not the solution.  You don't need your wife's permission, understanding, awareness, or involvement in your own wellness, progress, or happiness.  You don't (can't) agree on a divorce - you just have to do it, or not.  It's your life, your decision.  Make it on your terms and your time if possible.

[ACObound]

Hey FF

What communication are you getting back?   Not the details... .but the big picture.   Has your pwBPD decided to work on the r/s or not?
      Has your pwBPD decided to work on the r/s or not?

Did at first(seeing joint counselor) but canceled... .threats to call attorney... .so the answer is sadly she has decided not to

[formflier]

so the answer is sadly she has decided not to

OK... .so you have your answer.

Can you respect that answer?

In effect... .the ball is now in your court.  Your pwBPD has made their choice... .you get to make yours.

If there are other things she has communicated that you haven't posted about... .please post.  It's normal for their to be confusing communication.  The wisest course of action is to look at the big picture... ."more often than not" is the standard.

It appears to me that "more often than not" you have invited your pwBPD to work on the r/s and "more often than not" your pwBPD has declined.

Your options... .I"m sure there are more than I can think of... .but I'll list a few.

1.  Continue to invite your pwBPD to work on the r/s.  
2.  Stay in r/s... .but do things differently that YOU can control... .that don't need agreement or action by your pwBPD.
3.  Leave the r/s... .or at least start the process to leave.

My opinion.

1.  Will likely get you the same results.
2.  Will likely get you a different result.
3.  Will likely get you a different result.

Thoughts?

FF

[ACObound]

Can you respect that answer?

I think I can respect the answer.  I really am trying to stay big picture here.
It s the confusing communication that gets in the way.  If you were to ask my pwBPD,  she would be quite convincing that she was the only one inviting back into the relationship.  Her reasoning would have some merit as I believe I have had many bad reactions... which also have some merit.  I want to believe that had I known more about BPD earlier, set boundaries, reacted differently(as so much of the information here suggests) there might have been different outcomes.  Than the other side of me, in reflecting the premise of the arguments,... .I don't see it.
My course of action, in my mind, has been to keep inviting into the relationship,(counseling, not seeking divorce, and others) has not been received.  Her "requirements" for going back into the relationship... .I just can't do.  Thus, unless this is another threat(which it could be) I am going to see a filing and thus not be able to get to #3
so
1) you are 100 % correct, I will get the same results,
2) I have tried to things differently, things that don't need agreement or action by pwBPD.  I feel that after so many years, this is so foreign to here it has made it worse.  She can't process it and will initiate the break up

[formflier]

  this is so foreign to here it has made it worse.  She can't process it and will initiate the break up

That is what she would like you to think... .that places blame on her.

Reality... .she is using the dysfunctional tools she has to "get you back in line".

And it's working for her.  She breaks up... .you capitulate and come back.

Correct?

FF

[ACObound]

Yes, that would be true... .the "get you back in line" ... .and the  circle(I call it the hamster wheel) starts again... .

[Lostman]

I agree with you about trying things that only you can do that require no participation on her part. 

Your reactions are then so "alien" and / or out of the norm to her that she can't process them and it pushes the relationship closer to the end.

With mine, if you constantly leave the room or refuse to participate in one of her rants when she rages, it doesn't cause her to stop raging it infuriates her and she accuses me of "not paying attention to her, not communicating, or "wanting to live my life as a single man".  So as you said to this point I have gotten "back in line". 

[kiwigirl]

Ironically reading your post is like reading my life.

Total support & will follow so I can gain some answers

[ACObound]

Been a bit since posting.  I have been reviewing all the posts.
Lostman
... .our situations seem to get more similar everyday.   I hear it a little differntly but the same message.  "You always have wanted to be single".  I have been asked why I stay married and have responded similar to you... .because I took a vow... .until death do us part... .to no avail which really does make things worse.  My heart pours out to you.  You are obviously a religious man and that puts a another layer of hardship.

FF,
 I have been thinking about your post below more and more
Reality... .she is using the dysfunctional tools she has to "get you back in line"..

Through all these postings and with that statement I have continued to sponge in all the rage and criticism and not mirrored any back.  With that I set some stiffer boundaries and and as previously posted, I suspect I will  get a petition of divorce.   Her last comment(besides the one that I ruined our family and I will never forgive you) was that if I just would come to her and say (quoting the best I can) that "I am sorry for ruining our family and I will do anything to keep us together".    I can't do that,.the word anything is just to much to handle,  What I have "admitted to"(validated her feelings into facts) in the heat of an argument in the hope of saying the right thing to make this better... .I have already sunk low in my self esteem and dignity that it really frightens me what anything means.  Again she has called off the 2nd round of joint counseling, first one lasted 4 sessions and the second one lasted 8 sessions. 

So back to the get back in line comment.  If I do receive the petition, is this likely another back in line move?
I know no one can advise to stay in or out of the marriage on this message board.  But I am trying understand how I feel about this and if anybody can give me some sort of  hope in this

[Lucky Jim]

But, if getting married was a mistake, I decided that staying married was not the solution.  You don't need your wife's permission, understanding, awareness, or involvement in your own wellness, progress, or happiness.  You don't (can't) agree on a divorce - you just have to do it, or not.  It's your life, your decision.  Make it on your terms and your time if possible.

Samwize: Totally agree.  Nicely said!  In my view, there's nothing noble about remaining the object of someone's abuse.  Learning to love oneself, as you note, is key, because now I care enough about myself never to allow myself to become the victim of someone's abuse again.  That's my boundary!

LuckyJim