Serious Financial Problems

[DaddyBear77]

Hi all,

I have been married to my uBPDw for almost 15 years now, with a 3 year "break" in the middle. It's a long story that I'm sure everyone has heard before.

The problem I'm focusing on here is our very serious financial situation. About 4 years ago my wife voluntarily left her job and ever since, I've been responsible for "bread winning." Which would be fine if this were a normal relationship. But in the past 4 years, my uBPDw has insisted, demanded, manipulated, complained, threatened, raged, and used every other technique you can imagine to force me to spend tens of thousands of dollars on vacations, jewelry, voluntary medical treatments, graduate school (to become a novelist), you name it. I've taken out several high interest loans, borrowed money from my parents, and drained every bit of my savings long ago. I am now facing the fact that my only option is probably to file for bankruptcy. I'd have to find a job that pays me almost double what I make now to even make ends meet, and that's just with the current demands.

My uBPDw is fully aware of this situation, and her amazingly jaw dropping response, every time, is "well you just need to go make money, because these are all things that I reasonably should have." About 6 months ago, I tried to take a stand but through more of the same high pressure threats, I backed down.

I really need some help here in sorting this out. I am so anxious. I get 3-4 calls per hour from creditors and that's been going on for several months now. I've seen several therapists but nothing seems to help get me into a position where I can make the change that needs to be done. I also have a 3 year old daughter who is going to really suffer because of all of this - I didn't save that until last because it's unimportant - in fact, it's HUGELY important that I fix this for her - but if I don't affix my oxygen mask first, I can't help anyone else.

Help!

DB

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Grey Kitty]

Bankruptcy is a way of starting over with a clean slate. It doesn't help unless you can do something different at that point.

I have a dear friend who had a head injury years ago (before I met her, actually). She had a fairly high-powered job, made a good bit of money, and lived well, and was very generous to friends and family with her money. She has some sort of disability income or some such, but far less than she used to, but she kept on spending the way she had before, holding steady or falling behind a bit.

Two or three times, she refinanced her house to pay off debts, with the housing market going up, the equity was there... .but didn't change either her income or her spending. There were some large medical expenses for her and her son along the way.

Then the crazy housing market stopped being so crazy, and she couldn't do it again. Ended up losing the house, as well as some other things she loved, going through bankruptcy... .and finally learned to live within her means.

If you continue to spend money you can't afford when your wife demands it, after bankruptcy, you will just dig yourself into a new hole, and be no better off for it.

Are you ready to work on enforcing financial boundaries with your wife now? You say it is too late to save you from bankruptcy, but learn it now. Don't blow your second chance before it starts!

If you are ready to start, we're here to help you figure out how to do it.

[Notwendy]

Hi Daddybear,

I am going to echo GK's statement on financial boundaries. So long as there are not boundaries around her spending, this isn't likely to stop. It will take you being able to face her being upset, but if you do want some control over the spending, this is the only way I know of to establish it.

I believe the spending stems from a sense of poor self worth, and being able to buy these things ( I am worth this, I deserve this) is a way of coping. But the poor self worth is intrinsic to her. Buying a new item may be temporary relief.

Perhaps my story will inspire you to set boundaries. My father lived into his elder years, in love with my BPD mother, and did all he could to provide what she wanted. In the beginning of their marriage, he had a high income and it was not an issue for her to buy what she wanted. But as life had it, his income relative to inflation didn't stay the same. We had what we needed, thankfully, but mother was accustomed to having what she wanted. As a result, we compromised- lived modestly. It was as if there were two income levels in the same family. She had a closet full of designer items while we shopped bargains and sales. We had the fancy family vacations she wanted.

My father took out loans to continue this lifestyle. The stress of him being in debt was obvious. If I so much as asked for a new dress, he would snap at me. There wasn't much left to help me with college expenses, but his income was too high for me to qualify for financial aid.

Although at the time, I resented this, I became very self sufficient at an early age. I also learned to manage money carefully. I am grateful for that.

Fast forward to their old age. Outings with mom to the mall where she would shop for designer purses, watches, clothing, at the top stores. Stores I don't think of shopping at are a regular thing for her. She wouldn't wear something from anywhere else. Outings with dad to a mid quality bargain store ( that my mother wouldn't set foot in ) to buy a pair of pants with a coupon. Then off to the pharmacy to get some generic over the counter medication because he said he couldn't afford the brand name.

When dad got ill and needed to stay in assisted living, I was packing his clothes. They were old and ratty. The only shirts he had were some gifts people gave him - mostly shirts I had bought him. The assisted living wanted items that they could dress him in easily, (elastic waist pants ) so I went out and got him some. I recall bringing a nice button down, because I wanted him to have some dignity and not wear the ratty old tees.

Mom is on her own to manage the money that was left when my father passed away. I have no idea what she is doing with it.

The only person who had the power to intervene in this was my father. I know it would have been tough to say no to her, but by not saying no, financial stresses continued.

[DaddyBear77]

Notwendy, I can't thank you enough for sharing your story. I imagine you're my daughter talking to me from many years in the future. I am a mess right now, but it's early. I'm sure I must have time to correct things, so long as I start now.

"Enforcing financial boundaries" sounds great - but boundaries continue to be this impossible concept for me. In a healthy relationship, I imagine that two people who have decided to combine their finances make a firm decision to stick to an appropriate financial plan. If something comes up that challenges that plan, they work together to adjust the plan, understanding the needs and constraints of each person. In that context, I imagine that "financial boundaries" are something that each partner more or less has in common with the other partner, and each partner would naturally avoid trying to violate those boundaries. I suppose that once in a while a boundary would get crossed, for example one partner might have an obsession for a fancy new car, or another partner might really have their eye set on a fancy piece of jewelry. But those would be few and far between, and would be obtained through discussion and compromise and careful planning.

In a relationship with a pwBPD / pwNPD, things seem radically different. I can ASSUME that my boundaries will be challenged, fought against, pushed against, denied, ignored, and otherwise be violated the second I let them be. And I imagine that many relationships end up like my own - financial boundaries become this luxury item that I'll afford "some day" and for now, I keep looking for that next loan, bonus, gift, etc, that will help us through to tomorrow.

I want that first scenario, not only for myself but for my daughter. I want that for you too, Notwendy, retroactively.

Can I ever get that first scenario with my pwPBD?

[Notwendy]

Daddybear- the first scenario you describe would be wonderful. However - that kind of situation requires a relationship with honesty, transparency, ability to respect boundaries, good impulse control, and good communication.

PwBPD do not have many of these skills. Add to that the compulsive spending/ high item spending is a symptom of underlying emotional issues ( and pwBPD tend to look to external things as causes of their bad feelings)- and scenario #2 is not likely to happen.

It may not feel right to us to establish boundaries, but I believe it is the only way to keep spending from being out of control.

Financial issues are one of several things that can cause issues and instability in marriages with pwBPD.


People can vary with this as well as other ways of behaving. Some couples deal with infidelity or substance abuse, while others do not. BPD is a spectrum situation. For the partner, it comes down to boundaries. Is infidelity/rampant spending/substance abuse ( if they occur) tolerable, or is it crossing a boundary?

When BPD causes these kinds of situations, I think it is important to understand what may be going on. The pwBPD probably didn't get up in the am thinking about taking their spouse to the cleaners. I think they feel a sense of distress and not knowing that it is coming from their own emotional issues, see themselves as a victim of some external cause or event. Then they set out to rescue themselves by purchasing something- "I deserve this, I am worth it, see I have this designer purse"... Since they are in victim mode, they don't see themselves as hurting anyone or anything, nor do they feel accountable. ( see the Karpman triangle for more details)

The only way I know of that my mother perceived a limit on the money she was spending was when Dad wasn't around to replace it. She eventually said " the account went down and it didn't go up". My mother didn't work- in her era, women were housewives. Since there was no cap on her spending, she didn't even understand that. Only when she realized that what she has now is limited did she see the effects of her spending.

I get the hesitation. I've seen her rages. But eventually ( like a kid having a tantrum) she'd get the message that they didn't work. For the couples who have had financial boundaries, they do not completely join accounts. The pwBPD gets a part of the money to spend- what they can afford. It doesn't have to be so severe that she can't buy something she likes on occasion. But nobody has unlimited funds- that is reality. If she isn't being realistic, then you need to be. The rest is placed out of their reach. She might not like this, but if you want to have some of your money left for family expenses, this needs to be done.

Hopefully more members will share their way of working this out.



 

[Five28]

This post hits close to home. Married to BPD wife for 36 years. From day one we both made almost the same amount of money. Not enjoying bill paying, and being assured that she "took financial classes" I allowed her to handle the finances. I would sign my check and give it to her and would take about $50 to last me till next payday, and she would use the money, along with hers, to pay bills, buy groceries, etc. About 8 years go by and I decided to buy a Casablanca ceiling fan for the bedroom and was standing at the counter of the store and handed the cashier a credit card. DENIED! Couldn't believe it. Pulled out a second card. DENIED! Thankfully the 3rd one worked, but I was both furious and embarrassed. It was at that point that I realized that she was a spendaholic and decided to separate my finances from hers. I paid off all joint accounts and then canceled them and got my own. I cut all non-essential spending and managed to become bill free (except for my half of household expenses) and saved about $70k in my savings account, not counting retirement or deferred comp. It was great. We were close to divorce and I wanted to move out so I "sold" her the house for $1, just to get my name off the mortgage and title. I ended up staying (long story but kids involved) and we split the bills, with her paying her mortgage and me paying the food and utilities, which were about the same amount each month. Worked out well, until we started thinking of moving. Found out that she refinanced numerous times and owed $235k on a house that we paid $77k for brand new back in 1980. When I sold her the house we owed around $65k so she basically spent $170k of equity, with nothing to show for it. But wait, it gets worse. For some reason, I decide that the interest rates are so low (mid 3% range) that it is time to refi the house since she is at 9% and basically paying interest only and we'll never be able to sell. I take $100k of my deferred comp money and pay down the $235 so we could refi at a 3.5% rate, with the promise that she would keep paying $2k each month until it's paid off and then we can move. Well, once my name was back on the mortgage she tells me that "she doesn't feel that she should have to pay" the mortgage and talks about going late on it. I have never been late on a bill and had excellent credit. Unacceptable. I am now forced to pay her mortgage. Lesson learned. Never trust a BPD with money.

[Grey Kitty]

I imagine that "financial boundaries" are something that each partner more or less has in common with the other partner, and each partner would naturally avoid trying to violate those boundaries. I suppose that once in a while a boundary would get crossed, for example one partner might have an obsession for a fancy new car, or another partner might really have their eye set on a fancy piece of jewelry. But those would be few and far between, and would be obtained through discussion and compromise and careful planning.

What you describe is a financial partnership, something that can only happen with two people who can both be reasonable about money. (Aside: My stbexwife and I had similar and healthy ideas about money, and never had problems about this... .but we had plenty of other ones!)

Boundary enforcement is different. It is what you do to protect your personal (and household) finances from your wife's irresponsible spending. You cannot discuss it with her and come to agreement. Or if you do, she won't stay with it.

In your shoes, here's how I'd have made it work... .at least rewinding to a point where it could work, or looking forward to after bankruptcy when it would be possible to make it work.

I'd get a bank account in my name only, and get my paycheck put into it.

I'd make sure that critical obligations were taken care of first: Mortgage, house utilities, car payment, phone, money to keep gas in your car and get to work, etc.

Since your wife doesn't have a job, and she is part of your household, I would give her a reasonable share of spending money every month that she can choose how to spend or save for later.

If she does grocery shopping for the household, I'd give her access to money to do that.

But this doesn't quite sound like the solution you need... .

my uBPDw has insisted, demanded, manipulated, complained, threatened, raged, and used every other technique you can imagine to force me to spend tens of thousands of dollars on vacations, jewelry, voluntary medical treatments, graduate school (to become a novelist), you name it. I've taken out several high interest loans, borrowed money from my parents, and drained every bit of my savings long ago.

It sounds like you have capitulated to her demands that you destroy the household financially, and "given" her the money, rather than her "taking" it.

It might still help to separate your finances somewhat, but that won't save you from yourself.

[DaddyBear77]

It sounds like you have capitulated to her demands that you destroy the household financially, and "given" her the money, rather than her "taking" it.

It might still help to separate your finances somewhat, but that won't save you from yourself.

I fully admit that I've "given" and nothing has really been "taken" from me - yes, I must save myself from myself.

The thing is, a few months ago, I told her I was going to redirect my paycheck and give her the funds she needed. OH MY did the rages and accusations fly! "That is textbook financial abuse!". "There's no way you could even LEGALLY do that!". "I will go to a lawyer immediately and file for divorce!". "It will be a cold day in hell before I let that happen!"

But like you said, boundaries are not agreements and they certainly aren't the result of discussions with a pwBPD.

[Grey Kitty]

The thing is, a few months ago, I told her I was going to redirect my paycheck and give her the funds she needed. OH MY did the rages and accusations fly! "That is textbook financial abuse!". "There's no way you could even LEGALLY do that!". "I will go to a lawyer immediately and file for divorce!". "It will be a cold day in hell before I let that happen!"

That's what I would expect when you talk of or start enforcing a boundary--an extinction burst. Read a bit more about them:

BPD Behaviors: Extinction Burst and Intermittent Reinforcement

And she might file for divorce over that. She might even follow through. She absolutely will turn up the volume to beat you back down and get things back to the way they were before, when she could get money loose from you any time she wanted/needed to.

It sounds like a great deal of damage was done long ago, and cannot be undone. Let that go, and deal with your situation today.

Is there any current financial issue you are in conflict with her over? Something she is demanding that you can't afford? Ways she's being extravagant in small continued ways that you cannot afford?

[Notwendy]

The rages are common and as long as you give in to them, they are likely to continue. Why wouldn't they? They work, and by giving in, you reward this behavior.
 
Hearing " no you can not have this" is frustrating which can be momentarily intolerable for someone with BPD. Learning how to manage one's emotions is a developmental task- children need to learn this and before they do- they are prone to temper tantrums.

Your 3 year old may do this. Let's say you are out with her at the store and she wants a candy bar. Unless you are prepared to buy her a candy bar every time at the store, you are likely to say no. She needs to learn to be able to go shopping and not expect a candy bar all the time. Candy bars are special treats. But if she gets one every time she sees one, she will expect that this is the norm.

So, you as a parent, know that it is in her best interest to say no. You love her and know that this is the best thing to do. But she's not going to like it. She may drop to the ground, kick, scream " I want a candy bar" and then...

You have to say no. For a boundary to work, you need to stay firm and consistent. If you say yes - she will learn that your boundary means nothing and that all she has to do is scream and she will get a candy bar.

So, you say no again. Then she may scream " I hate you! You are the worst dad"- but you know you are being a loving parent. Just because she says this, doesn't make it true. This is because of your boundaries- you know who you are, and can tolerate her saying this.

Your wife is having temper tantrums. But you wouldn't let your daughter have unlimited money. Let's say- she's a teen. She wants designer clothes like she sees on TV, a new computer, a new car. You know you need to have limits. One is to teach her the value of money so you give her an allowance. If she wants something, she can save for it. Giving her whatever she wants all the time isn't teaching a teen to be responsible. She may not like it. By the time she's an adult, if you haven't heard " I hate you" at least once, you are probably not setting limits  

You have to believe in your heart that not letting your wife spend you into bankruptcy isn't financial abuse. It's actually being abusive to yourself to put yourself into this situation. You have to stand firm while she says mean things and threatens divorce. She may or may not do it but I don't think she could on those grounds. I am not  a lawyer, but I don't think she can claim financial abuse.

[Grey Kitty]

I am not  a lawyer, but I don't think she can claim financial abuse.

I'm not a lawyer either... .and I have no idea if there even is a legal definition of financial abuse.

But I would recommend talking to a lawyer or two and figuring this out. Actually I'd recommend looking for two different lawyers, ASAP.

One lawyer who specializes in bankruptcy, to give you advice on how to get through that.

One lawyer who specializes in custody/divorce, especially "high conflict cases" which is the term in the legal field for the kind of crap that a pwBPD may do if she goes all out. I don't believe you want a divorce. That said, your wife has threatened it already. You don't bring a knife to a gunfight. You would do well to understand what a divorce/custody battle could look like, and what you would need to do in it if it came to that. (Or at least post on the family law board here... .the senior folks there aren't lawyers, but they've been through the legal wringer, and learned a few things on their way out the other end.)

And please don't tell your wife you are talking to this lawyer! No need to escalate things with her when you are trying to understand your options, and haven't chosen to get a divorce yet.