Her Birthday

[JJacks0]

My ex's birthday is coming up this Thursday.

We haven't spoken in nearly 2 months. This comes after another 2 months of NC was broken by a couple get-togethers in October and then *poof* - she disappeared again... .so I really have had no intention of reaching out to her.

I'd like to start the new year off without caving and again being the first to think of the other. But I've basically already decided that I'm going to wish her a happy birthday. I'm pretty set on my decision but felt like posting about it anyways, just because. I'm always open to opinions.

My plan is just to keep it incredibly brief - nothing more than "Happy birthday, ___." No phone call, no text even - I'll probably just send a message on Facebook, the way everyone else does on birthdays. My reason for doing so is that I'm pretty confident she will not reply anyways - and if she does, it will be nothing more than "thanks". This way at least I will not feel badly for ignoring her day.

When my day comes up in a few months, if she ignores it, I will do the same from then on out. But at this point I think the guilt I'd put on myself for saying nothing supersedes anything she could say to me in return.

[Curiously1]

My question to you is why do you still feel the need to greet her? You've been going NC for 2 months and it's getting easier, right? You're not completely over her right? Why the need to reach out now? It is certainly not a wrong thing to reach out but if you are going to stick to NC do you see yourself reaching out to her every special occasion each year? Or are you thinking of this as some final thing? Is it hopes that she greets you on your birthday as well?

[drained1996]

But at this point I think the guilt I'd put on myself for saying nothing supersedes anything she could say to me in return.

JJacks... .I've kept up with your story over time.  And I've noticed how much you put on YOU.  Quote above as primary evidence.   

You're posting this on the detaching board... .you know what's happened... .you know what you are dealing with... .but... .you seem stuck.


And that's ok, I was stuck too... .as were many here.  I just wanted to chime in and point out the obvious.  The wheel only keeps turning if the hamster keeps running to reach the carrot. At this point in time she is the carrot... .you are the hamster in the wheel.  Care to close your eyes and ignore the carrot... .quit running internally and  seemingly eternally... .and take a new approach? 

[JJacks0]

My question to you is why do you still feel the need to greet her? You've been going NC for 2 months and it's getting easier, right? You're not completely over her right? Why the need to reach out now? It is certainly not a wrong thing to reach out but if you are going to stick to NC do you see yourself reaching out to her every special occasion each year? Or are you thinking of this as some final thing? Is it hopes that she greets you on your birthday as well?

There are a few reasons why I feel compelled to say something. First of all, our last interaction was not a bad one - we had been talking once in a while (successfully), got together a few times (also successfully), and the last time we spoke she had told me that she was going to come visit me where I work the following week. She didn't, said nothing about it, and I haven't heard from her since... .I found it off-putting, but not entirely unexpected. There was no negative interaction... .just lack of any interaction at all. If there had been a fight or a formal decision to cut off contact I'd probably feel differently.

I also have messaged her best friend and her dad on both of their birthdays since we've split.  Again, just very brief, polite greetings. So it feels odd to then go and ignore hers. Maybe I shouldn't have acknowledged theirs, but at the time it felt like a nice thing to do.

Finally, I still have that caregiver in me. Her birthday was always a big deal to her and it's so engrained in me to acknowledge it.

It's true that I'm not over her, and the lack of contact is getting somewhat easier. Or rather, I'm just getting used to it. I guess I'm not so worried about that because I have 0 expectations. I think her response would be minimal if it came at all.

I spoke with a friend about this the other day and she made a point similar to yours, regarding contacting her on special occasions. I realize that at some point I'll need to stop acknowledging these things to really move on. It may be immature logic, but I thought about it like this: I'll send her a polite message for her birthday, then continue my end of NC. If she ignores any matters of significance that occur for me thereafter, (my graduation, etc.) then I'll feel at peace with no longer acknowledging hers. It sounds rather childish, but I don't mean it in an, "I give you this, you owe me that" sort of way. It just seems like the only way I won't feel bad about discontinuing all contact will be if she shows me that she's no longer thinking of me and is going to do the same. Truth be told, I wish that her birthday wasn't coming up so soon. I'd rather keep going NC. I've made most of the "first moves" and I don't want to do that anymore. But knowing myself, I'm sure that I'll feel like an a** if I don't acknowledge it. It's not with hope that she'll message me on mine. I'm not really sure how I feel about communicating with her anymore. It's more about my own feelings of obligation (which I understand is foolish).

[JJacks0]

Care to close your eyes and ignore the carrot... .quit running internally and  seemingly eternally... .and take a new approach? 

Thanks drained, you make a very good point. This is why I continue to post on these boards even when I think I've made a decision. The different perspectives help me to reconsider. You're right, I guess I do put a lot on me. It must be that caregiver mentality. It's so hard to let go of. As I mentioned to Curiously, that feeling of obligation still lingers. But I do want to step off the wheel and ignore the carrot, so to speak. That is the ultimate goal, I just need to get unstuck.

[Curiously1]

 C<|||JJacks0

It's good to hear that your interactions with her have been pleasant. You have chosen to continue to go NC after greeting her because you are choosing to dettach, right? Rather than maintaining contact and considering a friendship or hoping for another chance etc. That you are doing this because it feels right to you but not because you are expecting she do the same for you. I think that is fine then if you don't expect anything back from her. Why do you think how you are feeling is foolish? Just don't do anything that'll end up hurting you more. I know you feel obligated to continue to do things that know are important for her but just remind yourself you aren't - even if you feel that you are. Later down the road and if you choose to completely not be a part of her life she will have plenty of others to greet her and then for you ... there will be the ones who love you that will acknowledge you and greet you too. No more obligated feelings. I do agree though that a period of NC is necessary even if you choose to still talk to her again in order to dettach. It's good to hear though that you prefer NC and it's just this once off thing. NC is great.

[Grey Kitty]

I sent a very brief Christmas email to my ex this year. Last year, I'm not even sure I did that much. I don't think I acknowledge her last two birthdays.

Rather sadly, the last one I did acknowledge, there was a lot going on, and it was a big milestone year, and I had a great idea (inviting friends and family to wish her a birthday wish in verse, and collecting them all, along with my attempt... .I'm not much of a poet). It just didn't fit with all the rest. She was also incredibly depressed. I kinda wish I'd done it anyways now, as I don't think I'll have the chance again.

We're LC, rather than NC, and I don't have to worry about the consequences of breaking NC, unlike you.

My suggestion is do it as an honest gift you feel like giving her, even if it is such a small one.

And if you don't feel ready or willing to do that, don't.

Especially don't if you are doing it out of hope or fear of her reaction to the birthday greeting or non-greeting.

[strong9]

So I was in a similar situation as you last week and asked the same questions of myself and others on this board. I have been separated for 3 plus years and divorced for 6 months and I still struggled with it.  And my ex did wish me happy birthday a month prior.

I ultimately decided I needed to stay true to myself and wished her happy birthday. But I did it belatedly because I went back and forth for a few days.  I did not do it last year because we were in the midst of our divorce and I let strategy supersede all else (though she did wish me).

Not sure if that is helpful but know that you aren't the only "nice guy" who struggles with honoring their own belief system indiscriminately, even when the person on the other end is someone like all of our exes.

[JJacks0]

*An update for those interested*

I did send her a message, and it went exactly as expected.
I sent it over social media and simply said, "Happy birthday ___", and the next day she replied with,"thank you  "

No further contact. I have mixed thoughts/feelings about that, but all in all it might be for the best. Now I won't feel guilty for saying nothing, and the ball is entirely in her court as there are no more reasons for me to contact her. I guess we'll see if I ever hear from her again.

Thanks for all of your input.

[drained1996]

Just wanted to say... .it does get better.   

So what kind of things have you been doing for yourself lately?  Have you thought about your future?... .and that could be just next week... .or even  tomorrow.  One step at a time... .

[Curiously1]

It will get better. Have faith. The most important person in your life to take care of now is - YOU!

[JJacks0]

Thanks guys.

I do have hope that it will get better. I'm still so sad and miss her like crazy, but I'm also just flat out confused as ever. I've read so much about BPD now, but no amount of information can explain away all of my questions. Maybe it's just more of the push/pull in action, but I can't understand why she wanted to get together (twice) in October... .have such a good time, only to ghost me again. It's confusing because the intent at that point was just to be friends anyway. So I'm not sure why she'd disappear, unless having a good time with me even as "just friends", made her uncomfortable. Maybe it bothered her for reasons unexpressed, I don't know. But she was the one suggesting more get togethers, and then vanished without explanation. I fully expected her to only say "thank you" when I messaged her on her birthday. But considering the circumstances, I'd expect a "normal" interaction to include some sort of explanation for her sporadic behavior or even remote consideration for my well-being. As I said, I did not expect to receive that, but that doesn't mean I understand why she doesn't do it.

Right now I'm just trying to stay focused on school. I've been in and out for years (I'm turning 30 this summer) and I'm finally supposed to graduate with my degree this upcoming semester (provided I can get enrolled in what I need).

School was always something I struggled to focus on while in the relationship, and it's still been challenging in the aftermath due to my inability to concentrate and episodes of depression.
But graduating means I can leave the state if I'd like, I can start looking for a career I'll actually enjoy, and have new opportunities.

It's hard for me to imagine turning 30, graduating, and not having her with me for it. But at least I have something to work toward. It's bittersweet.

[drained1996]

because the intent at that point was just to be friends anyway

that was obviously the implied intent... .do you think she may have just been checking in to see if there was still an attachment according to what you have learned here?

I'd expect a "normal" interaction to include some sort of explanation for her sporadic behavior or even remote consideration for my well-being. As I said, I did not expect to receive that, but that doesn't mean I understand why she doesn't do it.

you seem to contradict yourself here... .you say you expect a "normal" interaction... .then say you did not expect to "receive that".  
Having expectations can lead to disappointments.  Having expectations of someone with BPD traits WILL lead to disappointment.  

It's great to hear you are making headway in your education, and that you expect some good things for yourself... .you control that so expectations are good!  

So... .given you can leave where you are when your education is completed, do you see a place where you might be looking towards a brighter future?  Any thoughts where that might lead you?  

[JJacks0]

that was obviously the implied intent... .do you think she may have just been checking in to see if there was still an attachment according to what you have learned here?

I don't know... .right away when we made plans to get together she told me that she had been seeing someone casually, and that she'd like to see if we could get together just as friends. When we did, it was pretty obvious that there was still a connection in place on my end. I got emotional when she was talking about dating new people even though I tried really hard not to. She, however, made it clear that she was no longer interested in a romantic r/s with me. She even said when leaving that she was glad that it went the way it had - she didn't feel "confused" or anything and thought that we would be able to have a friendship. That kind of stung a bit, since she was basically saying that she didn't feel anything for me anymore. When she still had feelings for me, she had said that it did confuse her to spend time with me.

you seem to contradict yourself here... .you say you expect a "normal" interaction... .then say you did not expect to "receive that".  
Having expectations can lead to disappointments.  Having expectations of someone with BPD traits WILL lead to disappointment.  

Yeah, I didn't word that well. What I mean is that if I were interacting w/ a person who didn't have BPD I would expect certain things. I don't expect those from her because I know her behavior is different, and I can tell she's being stand-offish again now, basically back to acting like strangers. But I still don't really understand what's going on in her head or the actual reason behind her lack of communication. I know that she's different and so I don't actually expect these things of her that I normally would... .but I still can't exactly figure out why they occur. 

[Curiously1]

   Jjacks0 congrats on nearly finishing your studies   

There is probably a sense of  finding security or a way you can protect yourself from getting hurt again for wanting to find out as much as you can with this disorder. We won't be able to piece everything together and will have to accept that at some stage when you feel ready. Otherwise we won't be able to find closure just within ourselves you know?

Do you still get the 'If only... I did something different things would turn out better' or 'if only I understood her better then things would turn out better for me' type thoughts?

The reality is that things are no longer as they once were and there is no way to predict any particular action we could have done in our part for things to have changed for the better. If the pwBPD is no longer willing, our time with them is truly up. For me personally I believe we all have an expiry date for pwBPD. Some longer than others but nothing particularly personal in regards to how wonderful and worthy we are as people and as a partner to love and be loved.

she was the one suggesting more get togethers, and then vanished without explanation. I fully expected her to only say "thank you" when I messaged her on her birthday. But considering the circumstances, I'd expect a "normal" interaction to include some sort of explanation for her sporadic behavior or even remote consideration for my well-being. As I said, I did not expect to receive that, but that doesn't mean I understand why she doesn't do it.

Disappointment does come from expectations and possibly feeling a loss of control and security or any other combination of things. Do you feel that a part of you is relying on her to explain herself as a way for you to  feel that you mattered to her? Thoughts?

PwBPD don't think the way we do. Their actions are inconsistent with their words and are normally unable keep promises we keep. Maybe someone can better explain their brains but you have to really prepare to expect the unexpected when it comes to pwBPD. They live in the moment and according to how they feel.

I got emotional when she was talking about dating new people even though I tried really hard not to. She, however, made it clear that she was no longer interested in a romantic r/s with me. She even said when leaving that she was glad that it went the way it had - she didn't feel "confused" or anything and thought that we would be able to have a friendship. That kind of stung a bit, since she was basically saying that she didn't feel anything for me anymore. When she still had feelings for me, she had said that it did confuse her to spend time with me.

After a months breakup, my ex was already telling me stories about her new dates and having sex with them. That really hurt but it didn't matter how I felt. They don't seem to have boundaries when it comes to sharing things because it's all about understanding how they feel rather > taking in consideration how others might feel. Whether they enjoy doing that to us is individual though. Some are unaware and truly over it at that point and possibly believe you are too or are just plain insenitive to how it may impact you. Some enjoy causing others a bit of jealously and pain depending on the situation but most are just unaware it hurts you. I think you would know your particular BPD a lot better than anyone here.

Yeah, I didn't word that well. What I mean is that if I were interacting w/ a person who didn't have BPD I would expect certain things. I don't expect those from her because I know her behavior is different, and I can tell she's being stand-offish again now, basically back to acting like strangers. But I still don't really understand what's going on in her head or the actual reason behind her lack of communication. I know that she's different and so I don't actually expect these things of her that I normally would... .but I still can't exactly figure out why they occur. 

Ok normally a persons lack of communication, especially a pwBPD is because they are no longer as interested in you as they used to be. That may explain why she is more stand-offish now. Friendship with BPD honestly sucks. My ex and I are on friendly terms but you cannot expect them to think about you much or if at all unless they are having a crisis, need you for something or you have something they want. Their main focus is mostly on their new romantic relationships which they aren't particularly great at taking care of either (one-sided r/s) and the rest are just neglected and put on the wayside especially if they are still in the idealisation/honeymoon stage.

Note that they do not remember or recall memories the same way we do nor do they value exactly what we value in relationships. There is a clash you will find because they are more selfish and only notice what is given to them right now and externally such as the person who is currently the one providing them compliments and attention. Anything intangible such as internal  expression of love e.g. supporting them, being there for them when they need a shoulder to cry on, being their cheerleader when theyre working on a project etc. all come from the inside and is often if not always overlooked by the pwBPD eventually after the honeymoon period. They do not easily recall, recognise nor are they satisfied no matter how much you express your love to them. They will recall your most embarrassing moments and your downfalls though because they are more fault-finding. 

It looks like you do not resonate with the way she treats you  now because you have different values in regards to your expectations in a friendship or how you believe you should be treated. It's not going to feel like she cares because she doesn't show it the way you would show you care.  Perhaps those expectations adds to your confusion about her behaviour and chosen actions? thoughts? I know it's easy justify it's all because she has BPD but imo everyone deserves to be taken into consideration and cared about regardless of her issues; including you.

[nooni]

Note that they do not remember or recall memories the same way we do nor do they value exactly what we value in relationships. There is a clash you will find because they are more selfish and only notice what is given to them right now and externally such as the person who is currently the one providing them compliments and attention. Anything intangible such as internal  expression of love e.g. supporting them, being there for them when they need a shoulder to cry on, being their cheerleader when theyre working on a project etc. all come from the inside and is often if not always overlooked by the pwBPD eventually after the honeymoon period. They do not easily recall, recognise nor are they satisfied no matter how much you express your love to them. They will recall your most embarrassing moments and your downfalls though because they are more fault-finding. 

This is so well said, thank you!

[Grey Kitty]

I'm also just flat out confused as ever. I've read so much about BPD now, but no amount of information can explain away all of my questions.

I've got a guess what has you so confused about her.

You expect her to have consistent core beliefs and memories that still exist when her feelings change. Probably because you do (like a 'normal' person).

Your feelings about her come and go--you are sad, you are hurt, you are confused,  you are angry, you are loving, you are caring, you are happy thinking about good times, you miss her. Like any human being, your feelings go all over the place and take you for a ride.

And throughout all of that, you remember the things she did--both good and bad.

For her, feelings = facts. When her feelings take her for a ride, she pulls facts along to match it. Her past only includes things that match her current feelings. And the future will never be different. And anything which appears to contradict those feelings MUST be fake with a true reason behind it that match those feelings.

Until the next feelings come along, and then the facts get pulled in that direction.

You are confused by her actions because you expect to find a motivation behind todays and yesterdays actions that matches. There isn't one. Today was as if yesterday didn't exist.

[JJacks0]

Thank you for the thoughtful replies.

Do you still get the 'If only... I did something different things would turn out better' or 'if only I understood her better then things would turn out better for me' type thoughts?

Oh yes. Constantly.

Do you feel that a part of you is relying on her to explain herself as a way for you to feel that you mattered to her? Thoughts?

You're probably on to something, yes... .because I feel that even as just a friend, I deserve more than she's giving. I think it's rather cruel to resurface after 2 months NC, start up some friendship with me, give me false hope and then basically just bail. I know pwBPD don't make great friends either, but she does make an effort to see and talk to the couple of friends that she seemingly does value.

Note that they do not remember or recall memories the same way we do nor do they value exactly what we value in relationships. They do not easily recall, recognise nor are they satisfied no matter how much you express your love to them. They will recall your most embarrassing moments and your downfalls though because they are more fault-finding. 

My ex could be really empathetic and loving, a great partner. It always seemed as though we did value the same things - if anything, she was more eager to be committed and involved because of her abandonment issues. She was a very caring and considerate person to me the majority of the time - very thoughtful and loyal. But it's that Jekyll/Hyde dynamic. When things turned, they really turned. Anyway, when I think about all the good parts of her, it makes it hard for me to accept the absent-mindedness that you mention now.  No matter how long Hyde was around, Jekyll always returned and remembered the good. It's heartbreaking to think that her memories do not exist the way mine do.

I've got a guess what has you so confused about her.

You expect her to have consistent core beliefs and memories that still exist when her feelings change. Probably because you do (like a 'normal' person).

Your feelings about her come and go--you are sad, you are hurt, you are confused,  you are angry, you are loving, you are caring, you are happy thinking about good times, you miss her. Like any human being, your feelings go all over the place and take you for a ride.

And throughout all of that, you remember the things she did--both good and bad.

For her, feelings = facts. When her feelings take her for a ride, she pulls facts along to match it. Her past only includes things that match her current feelings. And the future will never be different. And anything which appears to contradict those feelings MUST be fake with a true reason behind it that match those feelings.

Until the next feelings come along, and then the facts get pulled in that direction.

You are confused by her actions because you expect to find a motivation behind todays and yesterdays actions that matches. There isn't one. Today was as if yesterday didn't exist.

Well this is pretty spot on... .I think you and Curiously have nailed it. It's just really hard to fathom not having any core beliefs/memories. But (I've mentioned this before, so sorry for repeating myself)... .one of the last times we hung out she mentioned how you just "tend to remember the bad". Which kind of killed me because I've been sitting here for months with my rose-colored glasses on, just swooning over all of her good and choosing to forget the bad. I think about her every day, many times a day... .I still get so sad about it and think about how much I miss her company. I've written 200 some posts on here about it, and who the h*ll knows if she's thought about me once over that course of time. It's just so strange considering we were both in the same significant relationship. Such very different perspectives in the aftermath. Just a very hard thing to accept.

[Curiously1]

I would try a mental exercise where instead of thinking of all the endless possibilities of what you thought you could have done, you look to identify what was missing and wished you didn't have to truly earn or make a tremendous stride for.

This could look like:
If only I didn't have to feel like I had to take care of another adult things would turn out better. If only I was understood then things would turn out better for me.  If only I didn't have to make so much effort on my own as a way to perserve the love someone has for me. If only I had felt deserving of the same amount of care. If only I didn't feel like I had to earn love.

All of the things that that we knew were missing and had wanted were absolutely necessary for us to be truly happy.

It is cruel. We are the constant givers and they are the constant takers. How can we constant givers expect to be treated the same or in fair terms from a constant taker? Where in childhood did we learn to become a constant giver? the pwBPD cannot give unless they can still get something out of the deal. You are right, it does matter how she treated you. Your feelings mattered just as anybody elses and should not be neglected or put aside. Who knows how well she treats her friends. Friendships are expendable. BPDs have a 'proclivity of unstable relationships.' Friendships can last a long while but but they normally lack substance and once they are done with the friendship, their friends feel much the same way as we did/do; like they no longer matter or never did.

When someone who has a cluster B disorder is interested, things move extremely fast. You've probably already know this but it's always good to remind yourself that pwBPD need someone to attach to and always change themselves in order to fit the person they are currently with. They do not know who they really are and must find a way to secure a bond with you. They do this eagerly and commitedly at the beginning by the way of telling you how much you have in common, how perfect things are, paying you a lot of close attention and giving you all of their energy. They love your wonderful qualities and wish to be like you. Like a chameleon, they mirror your hopes, dreams and insecurities to become your perfect match and install such a powerful but destructive bond like no other.  We get so much of our needs met - especially during those beginning stages... because we are filled up in ways that cover up our own insecurities we must face and heal ourselves. We start to feel whole only for everything to be taken away. We go crazy because like the rats in B.F Skinners theories, we are addicted to Intermittent Reinforcement. We always look back to how amazing we had during our golden period and never want to let it go, because we believe that the source of all this love for us is rare. That is what makes it feel like true love. However, because they cannot uphold all of these qualities we love for long, they do change because these are not consistent with how they feel on the inside. Once the honeymoon is over, they realise yet again theyre still an empty shell, nothing changed about them and that nobody has yet saved them. They discover you are flawed too and have a hard time accepting it. They are incapacitated for having mature adult love and cannot help themselves from damaging us in ways that they had become damaged.

I know that pwBPD are generally not cold and calculating unless they have many narcissistic and sociopathic traits as well. However, on the surface they share the same type of behaviours and cycles as the rest of the cluster Bs. They all idealise, devalue and discard people wanting to obtain what seems to be long reaching or unobtainable to them.

For a NPD the idealisation stage is to used to temporarily fill their pathological need for admiration
For a HPD the idealisation stage is used to temporarily fill their pathological need for attention
For a BPD the idealisation stage is used to temporarily fill their pathological feelings of emptiness
For a ASPD the idealisation stage is used to temporarily fill their pathological desire to charm and control others.

Took this from the book Psychopath Free by Jackson Mackenzie. Has a great section for why the idealisation stage had such a powerful affect on us and spotting red flags.

All of the wonderful things we thought they were was for us to become a reliable source for their survival. They needed us and as typical rescuer or caregiver types we equate being needed to being loved.
We could never fill that void inside of them no matter how much they take from us. I like the quote "If you don't love yourself, you'll have a hard time accepting love from others."  We must fill the voids in us too that made us quite susceptible for desperate love.

Watch this if you like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qk0d92DXlA8&t
The title of the video isn't the best...  but I resonate with how much this lady is willing to forgive and forget to their own detriment. I want to share this because I found many golden nuggets in this video such as reasons why I felt the need to take care of someone to an extreme extent.

I've been sitting here for months with my rose-colored glasses on, just swooning over all of her good and choosing to forget the bad. I think about her every day, many times a day... .I still get so sad about it and think about how much I miss her company. I've written 200 some posts on here about it, and who the h*ll knows if she's thought about me once over that course of time. It's just so strange considering we were both in the same significant relationship. Such very different perspectives in the aftermath. Just a very hard thing to accept.

Thanks for pointing this out. It truly is amazing how different other people's minds work compared to our own. We are prone to keep holding onto the good, and them the bad.

Today when I was eating breakfast I randomly thought about how weeks to months later my ex had already declared her love to another woman online. How quick and easy all of that was for her to forget about me and fly over to her city and live with her. I remind myself how abnormal that is. All these months I had to grieve the love lost spending so much time trying to understand what happened and all she needed to do was find another host.

[earlyL]

Hi Curiously1,

I just wanted to say thank you for this recent post, these thoughts have really helped me today. I am in a similar position to JJacks0 and it is one of the most difficult processes I have ever been through. All of your words made sense and it is so important that we recognise we cannot be responsible for another persons feelings. I am very much going through the what if i had done this stage, and yet deep down I don't think it would have made any difference, but I have to keep telling myself that. The guilt in me is causing me so much damage, but I have now started therapy to help me get over that. My partner blames me for her going off with someone else, who she now has deep feelings for and doesn't know what to do and it feels the most cruel thing to say to someone. I know if a friend was telling me my story I would be the first to say to take control and leave the relationship and yet something is still making me stay right now.

One day at a time is the best advice. And remembering that some days are better than others and it will get better in time.

LW

[Curiously1]

All of your words made sense and it is so important that we recognise we cannot be responsible for another persons feelings. I am very much going through the what if i had done this stage, and yet deep down I don't think it would have made any difference, but I have to keep telling myself that.

Absolutely! We can forget our first responsiblity is to ourselves and that we are allowed to be human (non perfect) so it's best to keep reminding ourselves of that until we form healthier habits and mental constructs.

The guilt in me is causing me so much damage, but I have now started therapy to help me get over that.

What are you feeling guilty for?
Feelings of guilt keeps us prisoner to the past. Apologising when appropriate can sometimes allievate guilt.
Everyone makes the best decision they can given the perspective, information and knowledge they have from where they are. Everyone does what they think is right.

Guilt on leaving: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFz3G0mNhwo
She placed guilt in 3 categories.  Appropriate guilt, inappropriate guilt, and survivor guilt.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMeW6z-V9Xk The Little Shaman Healing overcoming guilt

How has therapy been for you so far?

My partner blames me for her going off with someone else, who she now has deep feelings for and doesn't know what to do and it feels the most cruel thing to say to someone. I know if a friend was telling me my story I would be the first to say to take control and leave the relationship and yet something is still making me stay right now.

I've been through a love triangle situation with my BPD ex myself.

You being the one to blame for her deciding to go off with someone else is unreasonable. She knows right from wrong but unfortunately must justify her confused and guilty feelings onto someone else. My strong guess is that she is weighing the both of you and is undecided at this time who she wants to be with.

You are familiar and most likely still provide her a sense of safety and security and a new woman provides that exciting chemical rush she equates to love.  

Keeping both of you benefits her well and in case one of you doesn't work for her.

[earlyL]

Thank you Curiously1, your response has really helped me remember I am just as important. Therapy was really good, I was surprised at how open I actually was, it is probably something I needed to do a long time ago but I don’t think you can until you ready. The therapist very much focused on my needs and that alone gives me hope to move forward whatever happens.

I feel guilty because some of what she says is true, I do have issues that I need to conquer, as anyone does, but I truly believed she understood and I don’t think it is an excuse to cheat, but she would not take responsibility.

Sadly I think you are right, I found a note saying she had never felt love like it – they kissed once! The other woman is currently in America marrying her straight partner (we are gay). I found a letter from this woman to my partner saying they should meet when she returned (from marrying…) so they can see where their relationship might go. It has been five weeks and I guess my partner is doing exactly that by waiting to see. She says she can only go with her emotions, she loves me but has feelings for someone else. I feel so pushed away, but the situation seems so ridiculous I want to at least try to make this work. Is there anything from your situation that you can advise me? It all just seems so incredibly cruel.

LW

[Curiously1]

  LW
No worries, glad to help!  

Wonderful to hear therapy has been going well! Being open and honest about everything is so important. That's how you know you are going to get the best support and advice possible. Most people go to a therapist by the time there is a crisis and when the relationship is at its worst.

It's ok to have some issues. It's best not to magnify what already happened. You can only do better in future.

Your BPDgf is in La La Land. The situation you described about the woman and her is ridiculous. Apart from loving your gf of course, I can see why you would still think it is best to stay, hoping that this will just be but a short phase of hers. The other woman doesn't even live in your city/town and is married!

My situation was a little different. I proposed an open relationship at some point because I felt like my needs weren't being met and I addressed that to her. She agreed to my proposal however was extremeley hurt and unable to cope by the time I told her I slept with someone she knew I always had a crush on. Although I was open about who I'm with I felt very very guilty. She would tell me that she was 100% satisfied with me but she was not good enough for me and that I had created distance between us. I was at fault for choosing someone I kind of had feelings for but did not see myself having the option of having a LTR with . That was my wrong-doing. She called me a player and a cheater. I apologised, I chased, I reassured her she was my priority and I would drop everything for her. She ended up cheating on me for revenge. I told her to stop as I was deciding we should be monogamous again but she justified her ongoing cheating with a friend by saying I was just selfish and didn't want her to have her temporary fun. I asked her if she loved the friend. No answer. She was confused I think because she liked the attention. We broke up for exactly a month and she tried being in a relationship with that friend. Didn't last but so painful to know about. We got back into contact she suggested I become her wing-girl and FWB but I refused. I tried the friendship because I wanted figure out if she still had feelings for me. Normally she takes me back. I heard about her sex with dates and by the time she told me she still has sleepovers with that friend of hers I had heard enough. I dropped her, went NC and she immediately wanted me back. Were back together only for a shortwhile then some new drama started.

My advice to you is to focus on getting your own needs met no matter what you decide to do and try to have realistic expectations on your gfs capabilities as a partner. You could identify those by looking at her past behaviour.

When you are feeling alone or feel like you cannot express certain things to your gf, try to find another alternative source to get those needs met. I'm not encouraging cheating by the way, I just mean speaking to someone who you know you can trust to unwind to or any other way you can think of which makes you feel better. Reading, taking a walk, music, posting on here etc.

Have you read the book 'Stop Walking on Eggshells?' By Paul Mason. That might be a useful guide for your situation especially if you choose to stay with her. Keep reading up on BPD.

I knew that if I dropped my exBPDgf during that time she was being cruel she would freak out. I wasn't completely certain at the time of course that she would take me back or if I had truly mattered but I already knew that she would at least be running after me if she felt she had lost her control over the situation and still needed me.

Just a thought. There is the possibility that your gf may drop the other woman if you decide to leave her first and tell her what you expect from her to be with you but that would come at a high risk for you if she does not choose you. If you choose to leave her, yes do it because you want to leave and not in hopes of manipulating the situation to your advantage.

Basically you do what is best for you right now without the intention of trying to control or fix the pwBPD as a way of trying to meet your needs. That just leads to disappointment. Have realistic expectations of yourself and of your gf is what I think will help you out most. Take good care of your feelings first.

[earlyL]

Curiously1

Thank you so much, I cannot tell you how your words have helped me, just being able to write it all down somewhere and have someone respond takes it out of my head. I think you are right and having someone to talk to is incredibly important, I have been lucky to find the right friend for this, and of course this board. Whatever happens it is so good to know I have this.

Yes, I have thought about putting the ultimatum on her, but also agree it has to come from the right place and not playing a game. The married woman sadly does live in our city and returns next week from her honeymoon. I can only guess that my partner is waiting for her to return to see 'how she feels'. I don't think the next few weeks will be easy, but I do feel stronger than I did and have to hold on to that.

Your situation sounded difficult, it really all is an emotional rollercoaster, hearing other peoples stories helps though. I have read walking on eggshells recently, it gave me a good understanding.

JJacks0 - I am so sorry for hijacking your post here, it sounds like you did the right thing and I hope you still moving forward with your healing.

LW

[JJacks0]

No need to apologize, Louise, I'm glad this thread has been beneficial to you. And I agree - you've been extremely helpful, Curiously. I'm going to take a further look at some of the links/videos you provided soon.

I took a little break from writing for a few days because I've been cycling through some tough feelings again. Sometimes it helps to write but sometimes I try to keep my mind off of it entirely. It really is a jagged road to recovery. Some days I feel so much better, get pretty confident in moving on, and then mere days later I'm as devastated as I was on day 1.

Regret is my biggest issue right now. I know that I was very good to her for at least the first half of our 7 year relationship. But as time went on, I grew bitter, and I did not always handle things well. I never did anything horrible like cheat, get physical, or destructive, but I did yell at times and sometimes I was just overall irritable with her. Even when she was pleasant with me. I remember telling her on occasion that I just had so much hurt built up and trust issues accumulated that I had misdirected anger and took it out in the wrong times/places. We should have probably separated sooner to prevent that. I did try at one point to get my own place while she entered a DBT program, but she dropped out of it and moved back in with me no more than a month later.

Sometimes when I think back to the most recent times and the way I've talked to her, I start to question if there's something wrong with me. If maybe it was me all along. Then I remember that she had issues as soon as I met her. There were red flags through and through. But just because she has a PD doesn't mean that there's nothing wrong with me. I feel as though I picked up habits of it too. I grew bitter, resentful, started to have a hard time saying sorry, things like that. I lost a lot of trust, seemingly started to develop some abandonment fears of my own, and felt the need to control. I pulled away and was colder, less affectionate.

About the fifth year we lived together, we moved in to a beautiful apartment that we both loved. We decided that this would be it - we had to make it work this time or we should split. A few months in was her birthday and we actually had a great night out. We were both very affectionate and started getting a little frisky in the car before we went home. Well when we got home I was really tired - I laid down on the bed while she was in the bathroom and fell asleep. She was so upset with me that she kicked the door down. I'm sure she felt rejected but I was just tired. After that I just put up a wall. I mean this was 5 years in, this was far from new. I was so tired of being blindsided - thinking that something really good was happening only to be unpleasantly surprised. I developed such anxiety because of that very reason. She was so good at masking her feelings until she exploded. So we'd go on and on and I'd be thinking "Hey, this is a great day", and then BOOM. Seemingly out of nowhere (although obviously it had been brewing for some time), all hell would break loose. And I think most of you know what I mean by "BOOM". We'd be sitting calmly and suddenly she'd throw her dinner plate across the room. Or get up and start packing her things and tell me she was leaving.

This is where I take on some guilt though. It was always because of something I said or did- I'd get on her too much to quit smoking or I'd insist that we resolve an argument when she just wanted to go to bed. I should have backed off and it never would have gotten to that point. I don't know how I never saw how wrong I was in the moment.

Sorry for the random rant - but I guess it does go to show how conflicted my mind is. It's like I know she did things that were inappropriate, and I know that she had some issues. But I also know that after the first 3 or 4 years I stopped being helpful and instead made them so much worse. I feel like I could have prevented a lot of heartache for both of us by being more mindful of my own behaviors and making better choices. And finally, when given the ultimatum to either put more pressure on our relationship or move out... .I allowed her to terminate our lease. I didn't put up a fight. Because I genuinely didn't know what to do. If I had just put forth more effort and tried harder I might not be sitting here typing this today.

[earlyL]

Hi JJacks0,

I totally understand the staying away for a few days, I think that is a good thing too. I am sorry to hear your mind is conflicted, if it helps in any way, I totally get it and feel the same. I can have a really good day and feel so much stronger and then bam, the next day is much worse and I think this will never end. Do you find at all when you do have the waves of panic / despair / depression, which is what I call them that they feel as deep. Sometimes I think, and maybe this is me telling myself that they are not quite as bad as they were before and even though I wish they were not there, just maybe I am doing better each day.

Filling time is good, I am unemployed at the moment which is killing me, but I also see it as time to heal and properly understand what I am going through. In the long term it is good, in the short term, I don't think my days have ever felt so long. Thinking of all the times I wanted more time, and now it is here!

I really do think you should not feel regret, but I understand why you do. There are so many What If's and yes, I too feel there were red flags going on, but for whatever reason we both chose not to act on them. I have one incident in particular I remember thinking, I have to choose to bring this up with my partner now or forever hold my peace. And I decided not to say anything. I do now regret that, as I might have saved some heartache but I can't change what I did, I know at the time I thought I was perhaps being paranoid and it best not to say anything, where in truth I should have followed my gut instinct.

One of the things I try to think of, (and don't get me wrong, I am just feeling quite clear for this hour, I have already had two hours of feeling totally negative) is that for my partner anyway, she will always do what she wants. It is something I think I have always known in a way but seen more recently and actually she does it with everyone. I had never really realised how we always do things that she wants. If you had put up a fight, then what would have happened, another try for you both? If she wasn't prepared to work at it in the same way and also put up that fight then it sounds like you actually saved yourself another year or two of heartache. Of course noone can guarantee, but it is a possibility, and really if you were that exhausted by the relationship, you wouldn't have had the energy to keep the relationship going.

Try and remember that there are good days, and tomorrow might be one of them, it doesn't always help me, but I am relieved that I have had a good day so I can know that at sometime it will come.

LW

[Grey Kitty]

JJacks0, I know that feeling of regret all too well.

I did a bunch of things "wrong" in my marriage over 25 years. Got into a lot of ugly control battles that just made a mess. Yeah, I feel really stupid getting involved in "helping" a woman deal with diet... .when there were mild eating disorder issues there. Just lots of stuff. Not to mention only learning about invalidation, validation, and really learning boundary enforcement in only the last 5 years of it!

Anyhow, I've got a guess on one place you may be hung up:

You did destructive things you now know better than and wish you had done better.
She also did destructive things. More destructive than you did.

Neither one negates the other. You don't have to disbelieve one to believe the other.

Don't let your regret at your mistakes/failures convince you that "if only" you could have done something differently it would all be OK.

I mean, yes, you *could* have avoided that one invalidating comment any one of those times before she blew up. But you are a mortal human living a real life, and those things make occasional invalidating situations or statements unavoidable. And she would have blown up and thrown something later, if she didn't do it that time. You cannot walk on eggshells well enough to manage her emotions for her.

This relationship is too damaged, and the two of you lack the skills and desire (collectively) to repair it.

Meanwhile, let yourself feel what comes. Let yourself feel the regret and sadness for what you did wrong. Let yourself feel whatever comes up (hurt, anger) about how she treated you.

You may find a few lessons for yourself going forward in either. Or not. Just let yourself feel it.   You will make it through this and those feelings will pass. Yeah, probably to come back again. That's OK too.

[JJacks0]

If you had put up a fight, then what would have happened, another try for you both?

Sorry for the long story to follow - I've told it before but I'm sure some haven't read it and I feel the need to vent a little. Frankly it's fine if no one reads it, I just need to type this out again for some reason.

*Also I should have mentioned that my ex's mother passed away about 5-6 months before she terminated our lease. I feel like this is pretty important since it obviously altered my ex's frame of mind significantly*

My ex felt that the contrast in my behavior after her mother passed was too intense. I went from extremely involved with her and her family while her mother was ill/during the funeral, and then I did begin socializing again, staying out late, etc. I realized later that she felt abandoned by me. I can admit now that I should have been more balanced. At the time I felt very overwhelmed. My ex was threatening suicide again, and was not leaning on anyone but me - not friends or family... .she felt that I was solely responsible for helping her with her grief.

I am a bartender, so I was typically out later than she liked anyways working, and she was always asleep when I got home. On top of that, I did go out once or twice a week (tops) with friends (always invited her, but she would decline). And I'll admit that I did stay out all night into the early morning at times. This was unacceptable to her even though she knew I wasn't doing anything "wrong", I was just on a very different schedule than her. I am usually up all night, practically on a third shift schedule, while she is a morning person. It has always been this way but I did not always stay out so late - mainly because I didn't have other friends available to do it with. From my perspective this was just a way for me to let loose and release some stress. I was not getting trashed at a bar or making poor decisions-I'd go to a 24 hour diner and talk or something like that. I never felt like I was harming her or losing time with her since I knew she was asleep anyways, so the alternative would be for me to just sit at home awake while she slept.

I still saw her every evening, we'd almost always have dinner together and watch TV or play a game, and I'd invite her any time I went somewhere. I turned down social gatherings as well at times when she didn't want to go and I didn't want to leave her. But in her mind it seems that I was always gone. She started calling me selfish, never really had a nice thing to say about me. It was around this time that she gave me the ultimatum to make her my priority again, or that she would put in a notice with our rental company. I didn't want to lose her, but something about that didn't feel right. I understand better now in hindsight, understanding the elements of BPD more. At the time it just felt like a way to make sure that I was only focused on her - to get me to stop doing things she didn't like. I simply told her that I didn't feel like I was giving her what she wanted at that time - she always called me selfish and never seemed happy with me when I was really just trying to take care of myself too in the way that I knew how to. She stood in front of me and said that I had to tell her in that moment my decision or she was going to go put in notice. I froze up and she left and went to terminate the lease.  

In the weeks to follow, I tried to talk with her about the situation. We'd still sleep in the same bed afterwards and had a couple really good nights together where she later told me she was conflicted about her decision. I told her that I didn't want to be with anyone else. In reality I did not want to separate, I just wanted our r/s to be based on mutual love and respect, not an ultimatum spouted out moments after calling me self-centered. I think I felt a little bitter as well, because I have been focused solely on her for the past 6 years prior to that. She was always my #1 concern, even to my own detriment at times. I wasn't perfect after her mother passed, but I was not the neglectful monster she made me out to be. Calling me selfish stung a lot more than it normally would, because I dedicated years to her and her alone, even to the point of failing my college classes because I was consumed with helping her. I just felt like she didn't appreciate anything I did, like it was never enough. So I started to feel like why bother... .again, it's one of those things that I understand better now.

Anyway, she started telling me that she realized that we couldn't work in the type of relationship that she wanted. By that I guess she felt that I was just too uninvolved. She made me out to be this absent party animal which is entirely inaccurate. In reality, we've always wanted the same things. Now it seems like a case of feelings=facts. The present moment was all that she could see, with no recollection of my behavior the 6 years prior.

I tried to get her back once we both moved in to separate places. First I tried more subtly as not to come on too strong - I just wanted to keep spending time together/not seeing other people and hoped that it would grow into a solid r/s again. She told me that that wasn't working for her, because she didn't want to just be friends. I told her I didn't want to either, I was just trying to start from the ground up. So I asked her to go out on a date with me. She was reluctant at first but then excited. I spent a long time thinking about where we should go and what she would like. The first place I picked she was disappointed with because it was too casual (it was new and I just thought she'd like to try the food)... .I changed plans, and took her somewhere else. After dinner there (which I thought went well) she told me she thought I should just take her home. I had planned on taking her for drinks afterwards and giving her a gift. I gave her the gift in the car and tried to change her mind. She told me I shouldn't have and that I should take it back (concert tickets, so I couldn't).

Later she ended up taking someone else to the concert. And also mentioned concern that I was just trying to spend money on her to get her back (kind of ironic since she didn't want to go somewhere casual). She also was upset that I hadn't been more physically affectionate (again we only made it to dinner). This was not the end of the pursuing - I kept trying, there was more push/pull until it all ended for good maybe a month later. In that final discard, she called me after 9 days NC, told me she loved me and realized she only wanted to be with me... .we sat on the phone planning things together, and I went over to her place that night. I brought one of her favorite dinners and was so affectionate and validating - I was so happy to see her. She was the same for maybe the first half hour, 40 minutes... .then she grew distant and later told me that it was a mistake and that we should go our separate ways because it didn't feel the same and I wasn't the type of person she wants in her corner.

I guess my point after all of this ranting is that while she gave me a moment to make a choice with that ultimatum... .she didn't really give me much of a standing chance afterwards. I really tried to plan nice things for us to do, wrote her letters, was affectionate, etc., all with her in mind... .and she still always found an issue with something. Would that have happened if I just agreed to her ultimatum to start with? Would we be living happily now? I'm not sure. Maybe not agreeing immediately to that ultimatum is what set the course for everything thereafter. Or maybe no matter what, she would have kept looking for the things I did wrong and we'd end up here regardless.

The irony is that I don't think I could have gotten to this place mentally while living with her - I don't think I'd understand her or BPD as well - it was always too hard to do while living under the same roof and being in constant contact. There were too many emotions running wild. I had hope that while apart we could focus on ourselves and then become better together. But we never had an opportunity for that.

[Grey Kitty]

I don't think I've read the whole story all together like that.

It sure sounds like you did more than your share to make things work. I know you wish it had gone differently, but I don't see how it could have. I don't see any place where you could have acted differently and changed the outcome for the better.

  Still it is tough. Do you feel better having written it all out like that?

[SuperJew82]

I feel your pain, man. I know people get tired of the drug analogy, but it is like crack. I don't know how many times I tried to justify breaking my NC, even when my friends threatened to kick my @ss if I replied back to her.

I've been NC a bit over a month and it's getting better everyday, and I'm sure it will for you too.

Thanks for sharing that with us... .