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Author Topic: Wife instructing the kids that I am not a christian, inferring that I was not to be obeyed.  (Read 649 times)
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« on: January 11, 2017, 08:21:50 AM »


It's been an interesting morning.  I'm already exhausted although I believe I comported myself ok this morning.

In typical BPDish fashion... .I can't really explain or understand how my wife got so upset.  She discussed publicly various accusations she says I made against her last night... .of course... .I didn't make any... .but I understand she believes I did.

Fast forward to this morning.

She comes up to me and D6 sitting at the breakfast table... .like we do more often than not.  Hard to describe... .but D6 sits on the inside of a booth in the corner against the wall, I sit on outside.  So to get to her, you have to "go over top of me" or over top of the table. 

We are both eating breakfast, D6 has her child's Bible out looking it over.  My wife comes in and demands that she read her Bible in the living room, that it is not time for her to be in the kitchen with Daddy.  "With Daddy" was said as a hiss... .full of contempt.

She starts jerking the table and trying to get over top of me.  I made sure not to "push back" but I sat firm and held the table.  Tried to calmly repeat that D6 was reading her Bible in here and having breakfast with me. 

Likely went on for about 30 seconds of actual clock time.  Seemed like eternity to me.  I saw D6 hanging her head... .and felt her leaning into me.

Wife finally gave up... .stomped around warning the other kids that I "had one hostage in the kitchen" and not to go in there.

Insert various other BPDish stuff and then you get to the point where my wife starts telling... instructing the kids that I was not a christian and inferring that because I was not a christian I did not matter or have to be obeyed.

I stayed relatively calm, said this was a private matter that was not appropriate to discuss in front of the children that it was only appropriate to discuss with a pastor, her mentor or a pyschologist. 

She continued to rant and rave about it... .I left the room

Big picture.  I wanted to speak the truth and give clarity to the situation... .once.  My kids heard me.  I did not want to remain and "tit for tat".

Sigh... .

I've emailed my psychologist.

I've emailed the pastor that leads my small group.  Meeting with him at 1030.  He is not the BC but does work at same church.  My understanding is that he has a general awareness of tension in our home... perhaps he knows more.  Certainly he will know more today at 1030.

Goal for today at 1030 is to get help focusing on appropriate passages in scripture.  I certainly believe that I have been reading them and praying over them... .but given stress of the situation... .always good to have a second set of eyes.

Before wife and kids left... while we were doing family devotions, my wife comes back in the room (kids and I were studying) and my wife makes a big booming show of saying she was wrong to accuse me of not being a Christian.  She says she did it "because she was just upset about Daddy's allegations" and asked if I forgave her. 

I said I forgave her (the instant I said this word she turned and walked away), but that our relationship was not reconciled and this subject was best handled in private with appropriate pastoral staff.

A few minutes later she made a big show of kissing me on the cheek and then left.

Sigh... .

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« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2017, 08:36:27 AM »

I've followed some of your story over the months.  I don't mean any offense but, I feel concerned that your kids will grow into an unhealthy attitude towards your/their religion if it is something that gets tossed around in anger, even if it's just your wife's doing.  It is sad to see this conflict continuing around the kids.  I'm trying to put myself in their position, and it might create a lot of confusion.
I know we are all captive to our BPD in some respects.  I wish the best for you and yours.
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« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2017, 08:44:23 AM »

Do you think she has had some life event that is causing her internal distress that she is acting out?

Or is this an accumulation for her that has been brewing?

I wonder if something spurred her to be dealing with internal self loathing or other such awful feelings?

Did she loose support of that mentor person? Maybe has no one to be accountable to and to (emotionally pet her) tell her she is doing a great job being the better person?
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« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2017, 09:10:48 AM »

I've followed some of your story over the months.  I don't mean any offense but, I feel concerned that your kids will grow into an unhealthy attitude towards your/their religion if it is something that gets tossed around in anger, even if it's just your wife's doing.  It is sad to see this conflict continuing around the kids.  I'm trying to put myself in their position, and it might create a lot of confusion.
I know we are all captive to our BPD in some respects.  I wish the best for you and yours.

Yes... .my concern is for the kids.  On Monday the Psychologist and I discussed some of the "religious education" changes that my wife has unilaterally imposed.  Basically... .my wife now holds her own Bible study with the kids before they come in to family devotions.  My wife sounds like a dictator while this is going on.

My psychologist... .in addition to having a PhD and years of experience, is a devout Christian.  She made the point that this is EXACTLY HOW YOU TRAIN CHILDREN TO HATE THE CHURCH.

She is about 60 years old... .grandmaish... .but imagine your grandma raising her voice... .looking you in the eye and saying what I put in all capital letters.

In other words... .this cannot continue.  This is an issue that has the potential to cause enough damage that "something has to be done"... .

My effort is to be wise in finding "that something".

Keep the comments coming... .I do appreciate them.

FF
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« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2017, 09:11:45 AM »

Do you think she has had some life event that is causing her internal distress that she is acting out?

Or is this an accumulation for her that has been brewing?

I wonder if something spurred her to be dealing with internal self loathing or other such awful feelings?

Did she loose support of that mentor person? Maybe has no one to be accountable to and to (emotionally pet her) tell her she is doing a great job being the better person?

I wish I knew for sure.  He father appears to have recently returned from spending months with the older sister.  Lots of triangles... .shame... .and dysfunction in that family. 

That is enough to "do it"... .

But... .who knows.

FF
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« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2017, 09:16:37 AM »


She has harbored suspicions for a long time that I am not a Christian... .or "true Christian" or... "should be a better Christian"... .etc etc

This is not a new train of thought.  Multiple BCs... .and other counselors have "tamped down" and "counseled her" on how unproductive this type of thinking is.

Multiple times she has "figured out" that I am a Christian... .sought forgiveness... .etc etc.

It's cyclic. 

I will say that this mornings "instruction" is the most specific she has ever been in front of me... .to the children... .that I know of.

I don't have much visibility on what is going on with the mentor... .the lay person that she goes to to "change her thinking" (her actual words of what the purpose is).

Yes... .she has described her purpose with the mentor in other ways as well.  but occasionally what she says is "the right thing" ... .according to me.

FF
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« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2017, 09:19:10 AM »

Bullet: comment directed to __ (click to insert in post) FF - I feel for you.  My concerns weren't misplaced then, it seems.  I'm so sorry.
One motivation for me to stay married is to block the poison that my wife would use in subtle and destructive ways should I divorce.  I already see how she undermines them, and that's with me around, and on a good day.  Nothing so overt and extreme as you are experience, but, poison nonetheless.  My wife tends towards the "Holier Than Thou" road more often than not.  Meanwhile, the kids get good behavior modeled by me. 
I doubt I can continue to be the cork in the bottle, but, for now I try.
So sorry.
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« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2017, 09:20:59 AM »

This makes me think of how it must look from the inside BPD.  Self-righteous and self-loathing.
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« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2017, 09:51:07 AM »

I'm glad that you didn't take the bait about not being a Christian, at least with her. I get that from time to time as well - or that I'm rebellious or liberal. Thankfully, my relationship with God is not dependent on other people's determination of it.

Is her Bible "Study" a fairly new activity?
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« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2017, 10:18:11 AM »

Yes... .my concern is for the kids.  On Monday the Psychologist and I discussed some of the "religious education" changes that my wife has unilaterally imposed.  Basically... .my wife now holds her own Bible study with the kids before they come in to family devotions.  My wife sounds like a dictator while this is going on.

Could your wife be over-compensating for feelings of powerlessness/helplessness? Is it possible that her acting, in your words, “like a dictator”, is a way for her to try to reassert a sense of safety and personal control?

I hope this doesn’t come across as offensive, but reading your last few threads it seems as if some sort of power and control struggle is going on with you both, e.g. the care of your son and now the issue of her own Bible study.
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« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2017, 10:21:36 AM »

I am so sorry.
So glad tho to hear you have been sticking with some routine of breakfast bible time for the stability of the kids.

It just reminds me of times when ex was having inner turmoil, so needed to express it externally for "validation" and he would pick and poke at me.  It felt like he was on a witch hunt to expell his inner world to me.  So he would do the most triggering behaviors and escalate until he could provoke me to snap, behave badly and then he could zoom in to my one small transgression, instead of focusing on calming his own internal storm.

He may have been emotionally abusive all week, and maybe I simply said, "I'm really sick of this, can you cut the crap!" And he could use that to justify painting me black and nailing me to a metaphorical cross... . like he was boiling and simmering until such "proof" of me not being better than him revealed itself to him... . eh

I guess what I am saying is... .
As you ar doing, continue to be cautious
Get sleep
Do your self care
Remain appearing unmoved

I know you know this.  Just sayin anyways.

I just wish there was some way for her to feel you actually want to work WITH her... .
Eh, RA I guess
That must be magical thinking on my part
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« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2017, 10:33:25 AM »

Reading larmoyants words makes a lot of sense to me.

I actually had a hair brained thought to share... .

What if you validate her in such a way as to pretend enmeshment, and demo what she is feeling and resolve it in a productive manner?

Stay with me here... .

Ex.
FF: I am finding myself struggling with something dear, I wonder if you have time to listen and give me some advice.
FF: You seem to really try to hold it together and be strong. 
I want to confess to you that while I often appear strong externally, I am really actually feeling A bit overwhelmed in general.  I actually cannot pinpoint it but was wondering if you can help me to come up with a way to feel more relaxed.

FF: Maybe you can help me relax a bit by us taking a date night alone for mini golf?

My idea, is to put her in a "one up" position.
Use schema type therapy to illicit her to be sorta in a more mentor/responsible role.
Allow her to sort through what one should do when emotionally overwhelmed by applying it to you as pwBPD often do not apply advice to self anyway... .as it is harder for them to sort thru these thoughts when relating them to self.
This role in itself, can help communicate to her that she is expected to somewhat hold it together or such.
It also gives her a sense of value towards you.  Can make her partner with you possible in some way.  It is also not so far fetched to say you need help with stress.  Yet, idk if this could backfire and get used against you.

Idk, just thought I'd throw that out there in case cause part of it or some bersion of the thoughts may have some use.
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« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2017, 11:02:01 AM »

My psychologist... .in addition to having a PhD and years of experience, is a devout Christian.  She made the point that this is EXACTLY HOW YOU TRAIN CHILDREN TO HATE THE CHURCH.

She is about 60 years old... .grandmaish... .but imagine your grandma raising her voice... .looking you in the eye and saying what I put in all capital letters.

In other words... .this cannot continue.  This is an issue that has the potential to cause enough damage that "something has to be done"... .

My effort is to be wise in finding "that something".

As you posted later, your wife sees you being "not a true Christian", acts out in front of the children on those thoughts to some degree (although it appears that this episode is the worst), then asks for forgiveness.  Lather, rinse, repeat.

You know by now that you will never be able to change her thought process, so her cycles of seeing you as not a true Christian are out of your control.  I'm guessing that you're okay with that to some degree based on your length of time here.  I'm also guessing your focus regarding the bolded above is on her behavior, her acting out on these thoughts.

Ultimately, the solution is nothing new.  You'll simply have to set boundaries when it comes to these kinds of behaviors.  The question is if she continues to test these boundaries, how far are you willing to go to enforce them?
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« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2017, 11:35:30 AM »

   I already see how she undermines them, and that's with me around, and on a good day.  Nothing so overt and extreme as you are experience, but, poison nonetheless.  My wife tends towards the "Holier Than Thou" road more often than not.  Meanwhile, the kids get good behavior modeled by me. 
I doubt I can continue to be the cork in the bottle, but, for now I try.
So sorry.

This is essentially my thinking as well.  This is currently supported by my psychologist.  She is blunt.  I can spend time in therapy with her and do the best I can for the kids... .to minimize their time in therapy as and adult... .or... .I can divorce and it is likely my kids will end up like my nieces and nephews.

FF

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« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2017, 11:42:32 AM »


Control battles:  Yes... .this is a control battle. 

My thinking.  Don't pick a control battle that you are not going to "go to the matt" on.  Which means control battle should be rare.

It also means that I don't have to "win" every battle... but I need to be clear.  S16 is not in this house... .neither is his medicine that I had to sign for.

This is against my will.  There is more than adequate documentation of me offering compromise and her rejecting it and choosing a different path.

Who knows if I will ever use that documentation, but I have it.

There are also certain religious control battles that I will win... .slam dunk... .over and done with.

She is attempting to teach my kids "feelings don't matter... .there is only obedience to God".  That any effort on my part to ask a kid "how he felt" about a Bible passage is ridiculous... .heretical.

I'm not aware of anyone that has "thought" themselves to salvation.  Most have an emotional reaction to who Jesus is and what he has done for them... .personally.

Sigh... .

Keep the comments coming.

FF
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« Reply #15 on: January 11, 2017, 11:48:13 AM »

Well, if kids are to serve to be extensions of a pwBPD... .

Excerpt
She is attempting to teach my kids "feelings don't matter... .there is only obedience to God".  That any effort on my part to ask a kid "how he felt" about a Bible passage is ridiculous... .heretical.

Can certainly see how she may feel threatened here.

Looks like you may effectively be assisting kids through developmental milestone of individuating.

Scary stuff for her indeed.
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« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2017, 01:05:38 PM »

This is essentially my thinking as well.  This is currently supported by my psychologist.  She is blunt.  I can spend time in therapy with her and do the best I can for the kids... .to minimize their time in therapy as and adult... .or... .I can divorce and it is likely my kids will end up like my nieces and nephews.

This is black and white thinking. Another option could be that you divorce and create a home that provides a stable counterbalance to whatever goes on in your ex-wife's home.
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« Reply #17 on: January 11, 2017, 01:23:37 PM »

This is black and white thinking. Another option could be that you divorce and create a home that provides a stable counterbalance to whatever goes on in your ex-wife's home.

On this tangent: I am starting to think this applies to me now.  I have tried to keep up and keep ahead of the damage that could be done, but, I just can't.  If I'm in the cork in the bottle of her poison, I'm going to corrode away eventually, or burst under pressure.  I read about how much sincere effort many people put into bettering a marriage to a pwBPD, but, I think I just don't have the skill set and energy anymore.
... .Return to the more optimistic thread... .
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« Reply #18 on: January 11, 2017, 01:45:33 PM »

This is black and white thinking. Another option could be that you divorce and create a home that provides a stable counterbalance to whatever goes on in your ex-wife's home.

I see this... but I believe it to be true.  We have a widow into what happens in my wife's family in divorce... .not pretty... .FAR worse than what is now.

That doesn't mean there is not a point where I would evict my wife... or "blow it up".   

But for now... "wisest course of action"... .is to "work from inside.

More later.

FF
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« Reply #19 on: January 11, 2017, 01:54:57 PM »

Did you mention that your psychologist is herself divorced? If she had to struggle with all of these issues herself, then she may be well-placed to help you keep your options clear.
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« Reply #20 on: January 11, 2017, 02:37:26 PM »

Did you mention that your psychologist is herself divorced? If she had to struggle with all of these issues herself, then she may be well-placed to help you keep your options clear.

Yes... .she is divorced... .and then her ex... the father of her child... .is also deceased.  I don't exactly know the manner of death. 

I'm 99% sure that divorce... then death.

We have talked about that.  She clearly tells me that at the moment... .my best and highest use is "inside the home".

We have talked about divorce, separations... .taking actions that may incite my wife to "do" things.

hehe... .here's one for you.  When I present my wife with a "post-nuptial agreement"... .anyone here expect that to go well?

There are some legal matters still afoot that make that an inadvisable move at the moment... .regardless of BPD.

However... .likely this summer... .there will come a time when legally it is advisable to do. 

Basic thought... .anything that comes into the marriage from my family is "mine".  Anything that comes into the marriage from your side of the family is "yours".

And what we have built together... .which is considerable... .is ours.

Plus... .and very strictly defined legal procedure for taking "our" money... .and sending it to either of our families.

Anyway... .back to today's issue. 

I'm much more confident in my "moves" because of my psychologist.  She personally knows what it is like to have someone tossing theories in your face... .all day long.

She also has personal knowledge of how to protect a child from that... .as best is possible.

More later.

FF
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« Reply #21 on: January 11, 2017, 02:56:54 PM »

Excerpt
She is attempting to teach my kids "feelings don't matter... .there is only obedience to God".  That any effort on my part to ask a kid "how he felt" about a Bible passage is ridiculous... .heretical.

My husband thinks this way, too. Christianity is all about following the rules and obeying. I have a different opinion, much like yours.

That view sounds very invalidating of feelings and emotions. One of the things that people can do is to take what they have learned in their family of origin and put it onto God.

The thing is that she can think whatever she wants about your teaching and guidance of the children's religious life. You can pretty much teach them what you want to and what seems best to you. You have a lot of things in your favor to mitigate the effects of your wife's thinking: consistency, authority (if needed), and respect for the kids. If her Bible study with the kids was longer lasting and more consistent, it might be a problem. The occasional stints of that kind of thing is not helpful, but it probably isn't going to be too formational either.

Ultimately, deciding your salvation is not your wife's responsibility - that's up to God and is between you and God.

There is a season for everything - sometimes, it involves preparing for the next.
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« Reply #22 on: January 11, 2017, 04:48:47 PM »

Hey FF, What a difference a couple years makes, eh?

This round of dysregulation and paranoia on your wife's part doesn't sound very different than many prior rounds.

Your frustration at what it is putting your kids through is still there too.

Your side looks a lot different. You are doing really well at identifying the things you can do, the things you can't do, and the things that are a huge battle to do, and choosing whether you want that battle about this thing or not, and how you plan to fight it.

Do you feel more comfortable in how you are handling the same sort of dysregulations in 2017?

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« Reply #23 on: January 11, 2017, 05:22:33 PM »

I agree with Grey Kitty that your side of things looks a lot different. And now you've got the battle-tested psychologist riding shotgun at your side, so to speak.   Maybe it's kind of like flying as a squadron again.

When you get the post-nup stuff handled, that too should strengthen your position and fortify your reserve for the future. I think it will be good to have all those elements in place because your road as a father to minor children will be longer than most.



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« Reply #24 on: January 12, 2017, 07:51:48 AM »



Do you feel more comfortable in how you are handling the same sort of dysregulations in 2017?



Yep... .  There was far less fear involved this time.  There was far more understanding of the work/effort I was going to have to expend to get through this.  So, while my level of fear was low... .the "groan" that I felt throughout my body, mind and soul was very real. 

I've made no efforts to push those thoughts and feelings away. 

I did make very specific efforts to be extra kind to myself.  I made a very specific effort to spend some time with my parents and then some extra time with just my Dad.  Didn't breathe a word to them about my current difficulty... .my focus was on enjoying time with them.

Honestly, I tend to get busy and don't spend "enough" (whatever that is) time with them.  I have great parents... .had an idyllic childhood I would repeat in a heartbeat. 

So there was some sort of thinking going on, that I likely should talk through further with my P, that went something like this... .

The relationship with my wife sucks right now... .for reasons I can't control... .and I didn't cause... .

therefore

I will be deliberate about spending an healthy amount of time and effort on my r/s with my wife (me stating my truth about things "i will go to the mat over" and protecting my kids)

then

I will spend no more energy or time on that r/s and I will focus on me and relationships that are healthy... .with the caveat that I won't burden those other relationships by discussing my dysfunctional r/s.  (unless absolutely necessary)

I guess that's about it for thought process.

Update on "facts on the ground". 

She was weird coming home from work.  Sent me a snippy passive aggressive reply to an email I had sent to clarify things.

The infamous Wed. night suppers are back on at the church (remembering my choice to not giver her $$ that one night... .) and she was "uber" happy during the dinner.  We both went to our separate classes... .kids went to theirs.  We get home a bit after 8pm and she too "uber" happy to a next level.   She locked door to bedroom and was very amorous.   

I was measured and reserved in my response.  Ended up having a nice time.   

I saw no good reason to bring up the mornings events... .she didn't mention them.

Ultimately... .she is going to do... what she is going to do... .

FF



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Grey Kitty
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« Reply #25 on: January 12, 2017, 12:32:11 PM »

There was far less fear involved this time.

Amazing how much more we can do when we get past our fear, or go through it!

Excerpt
I saw no good reason to bring up the mornings events... .she didn't mention them.

 Doing the right thing (click to insert in post) That was one of my early resolutions I made to myself--Don't borrow trouble!

I will *NEVER* bring up any past topic raised in a dysregulation or as part of verbal abuse.

If my wife brought it up in a non-abusive discussion, I will readily participate.

But I'm not going to raise a triggering issue. It is HER problem, SHE is upset with it. When she wants or needs to deal with it, she can bring it up. Maybe she will resolve it herself with no need to discuss it with me ever. Smiling (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #26 on: January 12, 2017, 01:36:33 PM »

FF, did she have her own Bible study with the kids again this morning?

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« Reply #27 on: January 12, 2017, 01:45:25 PM »

I will *NEVER* bring up any past topic raised in a dysregulation or as part of verbal abuse.

I wasn't planning on getting another tattoo any time soon, but, you just gave me inspiration.
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« Reply #28 on: January 12, 2017, 02:49:22 PM »

I wasn't planning on getting another tattoo any time soon, but, you just gave me inspiration.

  Uhm, does that tattoo belong on the inside of your eyelids?
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« Reply #29 on: January 12, 2017, 02:58:22 PM »

 Uhm, does that tattoo belong on the inside of your eyelids?

Palm.  So when I face-palm myself after engaging in an argument with an adult toddler, I get a refresher.
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