More or less defined BPD?

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

What do you believe? Since the DSM is ever evolving and as a science always will be, are the 9 traits too broad? My exBPD had 8 of 9 minus the self mutilation or suicidal thoughts. If it's been observed that a high number of pwBPD go into remission even without treatment, is it possible that some are just young fickle brats without mature coping mechanisms yet, and that there is a higher level of these criteria that is a full fledged PD? My experience was that within the confines of my relationship, it was full on twisted reasoning, almost otherworldly. I don't see in my case anything working itself out without treatment. No perfect relationship without knowledge of the disorder could possibly not trigger the coping or lack of healthy coping traits. There is no perfect relationship without work and the knowledge of ups and downs. So maybe there is a more detailed criteria coming that would rule out some people as under another umbrella. ?

[Octy]

What do you believe? Since the DSM is ever evolving and as a science always will be, are the 9 traits too broad? My exBPD had 8 of 9 minus the self mutilation or suicidal thoughts. If it's been observed that a high number of pwBPD go into remission even without treatment, is it possible that some are just young fickle brats without mature coping mechanisms yet, and that there is a higher level of these criteria that is a full fledged PD? My experience was that within the confines of my relationship, it was full on twisted reasoning, almost otherworldly. I don't see in my case anything working itself out without treatment. No perfect relationship without knowledge of the disorder could possibly not trigger the coping or lack of healthy coping traits. There is no perfect relationship without work and the knowledge of ups and downs. So maybe there is a more detailed criteria coming that would rule out some people as under another umbrella. ?

[sad but wiser]

Just my thoughts,
  Many of the Cluster B personality disorders display similar symptoms.  Even more complex is that they frequently overlap.  For instance,  BPD may show many narcissistic traits. My ex seemed to also have OCPD... .in that he felt he had a unique and correct interpretation of the Bible... .insights that no one else ever had. 
   Psychiatrists classify by criteria, but these are just human classifications to help us get a grip on behaviors.  In the end, it is difficult to get a person with BPD in to a professional... .they either "don't need one" or "know more than any psychiatrist anyway."

[Octy]

I feel like I have just heard more "no change without treatment" but then a study that "It fades over time" in a large number of cases. Never have I put the effort in to "reason" with somebody so much only to see no change. As little as it is diagnosed are there just many difficult people labeled BPD vs actual PDs

[Soulcrushed4]

In general I'm starting to think it's a "catch all" diagnosis or a label as society seems to run on labels.

Either way it doesn't much matter from a romantic "relationship" perspective for me any longer as my dBPDex doesn't seem to currently want serious treatment. Prefers to simply play the system and continue covering ground that's already been covered with treatments that didn't work and enablers that buy into the latest mask. He's run the entire spectrum of addictions - alcohol, gambling, drugs, etc but seems to ashamed to address/admit the porn/masterbating/sex/affair "addictions" and now has a convenient catch all mental health diagnosis that he can use as a crutch to "explain" away any acting out or immature/unacceptable behaviour much like he clung to the addiction excuse or the ever convenient "relapse is a part of recovery" bit. .

The part that worries me is if it is more than just a catch all diagnosis and there is a genetic component what that will mean for our child.

[Octy]

Soulcrushed4
That's another thing. The researchers are finding brain connections between people with BPD, proving it's a "thing", yet it's generally thought to be nurture vs nature as opposed to the likelihood of a child of someone with  bipolar having greater risk. Maybe a more true BPD could be narrowed down. It will always be at the discretion of a phycologist as PDs aren't testable of course... .Yet.

[Soulcrushed4]

Yes but it remains to be seen what brain connections?
Is it damage from substance abuse/various addictions? Is it patterns formed from repetitive behaviours/stimuli made by CHOICE over extensive periods of time?

It seems various studies indicate one thing and then others indicate the opposite.

For my children and I what matters is there was a diagnosis, there were options treatment, tools etc offered and the dBPDex chose his path. Again it's the path that everyone but him suffers because of and yet he continues to play the victim card and its seemingly with the support of the mental health community and society as a whole who gives him yet another free pass from any accountability in life. While his child(ren), my kids and I, those before me and those unsuspecting supply sources  to come are the ones that it's deemed acceptable to "suffer" and expected to have endless compassion and empathy etc for how hard things are for him. Me - I get it, I'll own my part. Our child? Nope, never. His other children nope never. That's the true part where how things are currently diagnosed/handled that seems to fall short imho.

[once removed]

is it possible that some are just young fickle brats without mature coping mechanisms yet, and that there is a higher level of these criteria that is a full fledged PD?

remember, this is a spectrum disorder. the traits are on a spectrum as well, and prevalence of those traits is taken into account by a professional. there are two hundred and fifty six combinations of these traits. and then of course its possible for a person to have say, two or three pronounced traits but not qualify for a diagnosis of the disorder.

https://bpdfamily.com/content/borderline-personality-disorder

My experience was that within the confines of my relationship, it was full on twisted reasoning, almost otherworldly.
[/quotes]

unfortunately (or fortunately?), this is what most of our experience is limited to. it sounds like, regardless of a label, you have determined the relationship is broken and opted not to go back, do i have that right?

[Octy]

Once removed
I had become unstable myself towards the end. The dissapearences followed by right back too marriage talk to deflect. The silent treatment and almost catatonic state when caught in a lie that had me just move on like it must be me that had it wrong. About the relationship? I feel I would have recognized how I had flipped myself into what she worried I was. I ended it so immaturely. She was living a double life and I found out the complete truth and sent her very religious mother pics of her new tattoos(I was drunk when I found out). I was a shell of myself towards the end. I thought I had had enough because she already cheated, lied, and been caught many times. She tried to please everyone without honesty. Am I sick that I still would want her back? Yes. She accepted another man's ring six weeks after our last break up. Done and done. But I'm still on here. Still stuck.   First real love. First loss. I don't mean to belittle anyone's story. I only know I took her fears and odd reasoning that I catered to in the beginning as just the inability to learn what hurt others.

[enlighten me]

Depending on the cause of BPD then there are a number of ideas on if it can get better.

My personal (unprofessional) opinion is that BPD stems from physical differences in the brain with a genetic basis. i.e. they are born that way and its a family trait.

If that is the case then some of the behaviour may never truly go away. On the other hand though with the right therapy it could be improved due to neuro plasticity where other parts of the brain can be trained to take over normal behaviour (as seen with stroke victims who train parts of their brain to take over speech and movement from the damaged parts). There is also a possibility that as the pwBPD gets older then the symptoms can decrease. This isn't the case for all but could be due to how hormones affect behaviour and by going through menopause then hormone levels aren't as erratic.

[michel71]

My uBPDw is peri-menopausal. She is erratic as hell. Worse. Not better.

[enlighten me]

Hi michel

Like I said its not always the case. There is a bit written on the web about symptoms improving for some post menopause. But its not always the case. In fact I would say only a minority improve which makes it all the more confusing. One thought is that by that time people are set in their ways so even if it is affected by hormones and that catalyst is gone they still carry on as normal.

[once removed]

About the relationship? I feel I would have recognized how I had flipped myself into what she worried I was. I ended it so immaturely.

and i dont mean to belittle your experience when i say i think most of us didnt recognize ourselves by the end of our relationships and did things we werent proud of. we shouldnt justify or excuse them, but at the same time, i think we should not beat ourselves up.

i also encourage you not to judge yourself for wanting her back. try to acknowledge your feelings without judgment, and give yourself permission to grieve. nothing held my recovery back more than shaming myself.

I only know I took her fears and odd reasoning that I catered to in the beginning as just the inability to learn what hurt others.

would you consider that an incompatibility?

[Octy]

Once Removed
 I like the qoute "I wish I didn't know now, what I didn't know then" Bob Seger . Yet ignorance is a easier place to be. Like others on here, I didn't know what I was in. I thought she was depressed, but there was just chaos beyond that. I wish I had clicked on BPD information before the end, though I know she would have found it going through my phone. I started by expressing my sadness, then probably presented it as anger towards the end. I was so overwhelmed. I feel she couldn't understand I could be affected by the things she did that were so much worse than my aloofness(is he cheating?) because the stings were becoming so painful. I put on a front at the end. She could do all the things she learned with me with other men, and tell me about it like a friend. Off on off on. Marriage talk, single, marriage again. It's the knowledge of the disorder and myself now(painfully broken, yet better repaired) that will keep me thinking compatibility was possible. That "if only" because we're both still on this earth. So much pain because the one I want to say what I know now is elsewhere. I know better but it hasn't clicked and fixed anything yet. That is all.

[joeramabeme]

I know better but it hasn't clicked and fixed anything yet. That is all

Octy - I have been at this place too.  You are right in saying that it hasn't "clicked".  My recovery experience is more like a slow drive on a winding road with lots of "I didnt see that coming" type of moments. 

Though the formal (and informal) definitions of BP may be lacking; the general idea of an emotional attachment disorder is a pretty good anchor from which to stabilize thoughts about the past.

Over the holidays I spent time re-reading all my notes from a 11 year marriage and at the end of my marathon session the words that came to my mind were "emotionally unstable".  Good enough for me to know that no matter how I tried, there was never going to be a time when I could change that.

Hope this helps... .

[Octy]

Joeramabeme
Does help. Ideas never hurt. Is it a developmental disorder or genetic brain abnormality or both? I'm sure the level I experienced was almost a person who couldn't add up one possible learned lesson with another... .cause and effect malfunctioned as a short circuit. I cried more than once and she asked why. I said that she couldn't just believe that I loved her. I must be cheating or done with her in a minute. It's the "maybe she can develop out of this". I want the best for her, yet(I know,I know) I don't want to see a rookie to the madness(next guy) getting a knit together her. I'm awful in this way. The question internally was whether if she's delusionally a mind reader who can't remember what she said and denies facts and if it's chemical even if exasperated from child neglect... .Will she just get better? Will she respond to life and responsibilities without treatment? She certainly was more than just a brat(as cute as that mild side seemed once). Something like that

[joeramabeme]

Joeramabeme
Does help. Ideas never hurt. Is it a developmental disorder or genetic brain abnormality or both? I'm sure the level I experienced was almost a person who couldn't add up one possible learned lesson with another... .cause and effect malfunctioned as a short circuit. I cried more than once and she asked why. I said that she couldn't just believe that I loved her. I must be cheating or done with her in a minute. It's the "maybe she can develop out of this". I want the best for her, yet(I know,I know) I don't want to see a rookie to the madness(next guy) getting a knit together her. I'm awful in this way. The question internally was whether if she's delusionally a mind reader who can't remember what she said and denies facts and if it's chemical even if exasperated from child neglect... .Will she just get better? Will she respond to life and responsibilities without treatment? She certainly was more than just a brat(as cute as that mild side seemed once). Something like that

Hey Octy, All good questions you ask about.  Likewise, I have been through the thought grinder and at times thought I could publish a paper about it all.  Alas, I only cared to think through it because my heart hurt and there had to be an explanation as to why.

Some of what you ponder is reasonable to ask in order to get closure.  Honestly it has been over a year for me now, and the closure part is just a gradual process rather than a moment in time (as it might be in a different r/s). 

Of all the things that I have struggled with regarding this type of thinking; just simply believing the literature about BPD as being true about my ex has seemed impossible.  Yet, a year later (and still more to go) I can tell you that all my internal dialogues have added up to validating and believing what the literature says.

"It's the "maybe she can develop out of this".
She IS this.  Personality Disorder.  They are the disorder and the disorder is them. 

It is not something to "develop out of", it is who she is. 

It is akin to my asking you why do you ask these questions and assuming you will grow out of being a question asker.  You probably think that asking questions is good and a part of who you are.  Likewise, she thinks being the way she is, is good and who she is.  What is there to "develop out of"?  She cannot delineate where her behavior is off base.  That is the personality of the disorder.

Have you read any of the literature?  Especially Stop Walking on Eggshells . . ... ?

[Octy]

joeramabeme
Well... .I enjoy reading immensely, and have bought quite a few books lately. I just can't focus. I stray. Even movies and tv are hard to stay grounded in. I can see that a book on the subject may be a way forward and I am interested. Have to get to B & N.

I think many of us feel that the right person may get what we didn't. Consistency in the r/s.

So... .My replacement got cheated on by her being with me(after a ghost to him). He was an ex and used to cheat on her. Both admitted. She cheated on me and always blamed me. She "knew" or "didn't know" me. She loved me "sometimes" when I wasn't "mean".  "Knowbody has the potential to make me more happy or sad than you?" WTH? Such negative self fulfilling prophecy. I told her love is 24/7 and you can dislike things people do and still love them and I had absolutely no information about BPD. I later found it became her password love24/7 to her long distance cheating communication (never went through her phone ever, she left it in my browser).

So amazed at how that is so common. To believe when someone is not around that they may not love you or have left forever. What a wall you have to build during a r/s because you expect that as an inevitablity.  If I was in the bathroom and she woke up she would be rubbing her eyes and say she thought I ran away leaving everything including her behind.
 
Sometimes I almost just want proof this all happened. It's hard to believe your family and friends telling you that you're kind and honest when they are, well, your friends and family. Off topic but I feel like getting things out when I can. It's all repeat to those closest.

[joeramabeme]

So amazed at how that is so common. To believe when someone is not around that they may not love you or have left forever. What a wall you have to build during a r/s because you expect that as an inevitablity.  If I was in the bathroom and she woke up she would be rubbing her eyes and say she thought I ran away leaving everything including her behind.
 
Sometimes I almost just want proof this all happened. It's hard to believe your family and friends telling you that you're kind and honest when they are, well, your friends and family. Off topic but I feel like getting things out when I can. It's all repeat to those closest.

Agreed, what is the proof of the r/s other than memories and pictures.  It makes me feel like I have a similar trait to BPD, lack of object constancy.  And that is part of the nature of what we go through as non's breaking away from an unstable relationship attachment.  We didn't know it at the time, but it is true.

And who can build that type of wall in a "relationship"?  The word "relationship" implies so much and "trust" is certainly inherent in the definition.  Yet, we find out that the sense of trust is fleeting and dependent on day-to-day interactions that once completed, are very difficult for the pwBPD to hold onto.

A little story about it all.  When my ex left and we were deciding who should take what, I came across the wedding album.  I looked at her as if to say, well who gets this?  She looked back with an empty blank stare; part emptiness, part anger, part I don't know what that is.  Really blew my mind.

My story just goes back to the object constancy point.  She wouldn't/couldn't recall any of those memories and bring them into conscious processing.  I am sure there is a defense mechanism at play in all of this.

Thankfully we have this board to get validated on these memories so that we don't get stuck in our own confusion about events.

Keep posting, this is all good stuff!