My son won't talk to us and we think his wife has BPD.

[Depression = 72% of members]

My son married two years ago a girl we barely knew. (He lives in another state.) When they were engaged, she was friendly, joked with us, even bought me gifts (chocolate, wine). Then her father died (before the wedding) and they eloped a few months later. They also had a second wedding and a third reception to accommodate family in different parts of the country. We hosted the third reception in our state for our family. They stayed with us two days. In those two days everything changed. We didn't know what we had done, but she did a 180 on us.

Our son tried to explain how she felt but it made no sense. We tried to make amends. Then we find out she's pregnant but the entire pregnancy is kept from us (except for knowledge of it). We saw no pictures, I was not invited to a baby shower, etc. We did get to meet the baby two weeks after her birth but since that visit things have gone from bad to worse. While they acted friendly to a point then, he began to get abusive with me via text. This was not like him.

We backed off. He called on his dad's birthday and told us he loved us and we could call any time and we were ecstatic. We'd given them space and thought it had helped. He sent a video of the baby. But a week later he turned accusing toward me again and his dad called him out on it - all via text because that was the only way he would "speak." I apologized by email accepting anything I could honestly claim - like maybe I did smother a bit much when he was younger. I put no blame on him or his wife - just accepted it and told him how I respected him, etc.

No response to either of those. We tried calling. No answer. Christmas came. We sent gifts. We missed our granddaughter's first Christmas and were not even told if the package was received (we tracked it - but it could have been stolen off a porch). I managed to survive the holidays, but then his birthday came. We called. It went to voicemail. But he called my mom back and talked for 30 minutes. (We have never received that long of a call since the marriage.) And he never called us back. He won't respond to either of us - though he used to respond to his dad.

I know it sounds like my son has the problem - and likely he has some issues. But he's changed since the marriage. And it's his wife who first blocked me on social media - then he did a year later. It was his wife who has lied to us several times. It was his wife who did the 180 after her visit here and won't explain what we did wrong - except that they tried to change all of our plans with them at the last minute when we only had two days with them. She wanted him to herself and I got emotional. Wrong move there. Don't show your hurt, I guess.

Every action that sounded like she liked us now feels like she hates us and I suspect she is controlling him because he used to try to talk to us when she wasn't around. He would Skype with the baby for 3 minutes when she was sleeping. Rarely with her. He would send pictures of the baby. Now nothing. They won't forgive or even talk about moving past wrongs suffered and let us back into their lives. It's not like we live nearby and would be on their doorstep. We aren't even asking for a lot of time.

But she knew that I crave time and physical affection with my family - and pictures of them. We have received NO family photos of them. None of the weddings. And when we were all together with the baby - they refused to let us get a family pic. I feel like he's been walking on eggshells trying to keep her happy, but now he's shutting us out to do that?

My husband is our son's daughter's only grandfather and we aren't getting any younger. But I can't get our son to respond. I can't fix this any which way I try. So we pray and pray and pray. But it's breaking my heart every day and I can't live like this.

Is there any hope our son will come back and have a relationship with us or let us see our granddaughter? I KNOW he wanted us in his life when he had a family. (He used to thank us for being good parents!) But I honestly think he jumped into this without realizing what she was like. And I have reasons to believe she lied to him.

What do we do? Is there any hope when you can't even communicate with them?
Thanks!

[gracie-em]

My son married two years ago a girl we barely knew. (He lives in another state.) When they were engaged, she was friendly, joked with us, even bought me gifts (chocolate, wine). Then her father died (before the wedding) and they eloped a few months later. They also had a second wedding and a third reception to accommodate family in different parts of the country. We hosted the third reception in our state for our family. They stayed with us two days. In those two days everything changed. We didn't know what we had done, but she did a 180 on us.

Our son tried to explain how she felt but it made no sense. We tried to make amends. Then we find out she's pregnant but the entire pregnancy is kept from us (except for knowledge of it). We saw no pictures, I was not invited to a baby shower, etc. We did get to meet the baby two weeks after her birth but since that visit things have gone from bad to worse. While they acted friendly to a point then, he began to get abusive with me via text. This was not like him.

We backed off. He called on his dad's birthday and told us he loved us and we could call any time and we were ecstatic. We'd given them space and thought it had helped. He sent a video of the baby. But a week later he turned accusing toward me again and his dad called him out on it - all via text because that was the only way he would "speak." I apologized by email accepting anything I could honestly claim - like maybe I did smother a bit much when he was younger. I put no blame on him or his wife - just accepted it and told him how I respected him, etc.

No response to either of those. We tried calling. No answer. Christmas came. We sent gifts. We missed our granddaughter's first Christmas and were not even told if the package was received (we tracked it - but it could have been stolen off a porch). I managed to survive the holidays, but then his birthday came. We called. It went to voicemail. But he called my mom back and talked for 30 minutes. (We have never received that long of a call since the marriage.) And he never called us back. He won't respond to either of us - though he used to respond to his dad.

I know it sounds like my son has the problem - and likely he has some issues. But he's changed since the marriage. And it's his wife who first blocked me on social media - then he did a year later. It was his wife who has lied to us several times. It was his wife who did the 180 after her visit here and won't explain what we did wrong - except that they tried to change all of our plans with them at the last minute when we only had two days with them. She wanted him to herself and I got emotional. Wrong move there. Don't show your hurt, I guess.

Every action that sounded like she liked us now feels like she hates us and I suspect she is controlling him because he used to try to talk to us when she wasn't around. He would Skype with the baby for 3 minutes when she was sleeping. Rarely with her. He would send pictures of the baby. Now nothing. They won't forgive or even talk about moving past wrongs suffered and let us back into their lives. It's not like we live nearby and would be on their doorstep. We aren't even asking for a lot of time.

But she knew that I crave time and physical affection with my family - and pictures of them. We have received NO family photos of them. None of the weddings. And when we were all together with the baby - they refused to let us get a family pic. I feel like he's been walking on eggshells trying to keep her happy, but now he's shutting us out to do that?

My husband is our son's daughter's only grandfather and we aren't getting any younger. But I can't get our son to respond. I can't fix this any which way I try. So we pray and pray and pray. But it's breaking my heart every day and I can't live like this.

Is there any hope our son will come back and have a relationship with us or let us see our granddaughter? I KNOW he wanted us in his life when he had a family. (He used to thank us for being good parents!) But I honestly think he jumped into this without realizing what she was like. And I have reasons to believe she lied to him.

What do we do? Is there any hope when you can't even communicate with them?
Thanks!

[Woolspinner2000]

Welcome Gracie-em! 

I'm so glad you found our site. There is a lot of support here, and many other members who are in a similar place to where you are.

I am so sorry for the pain you and your husband are in due to the family dynamics with your son and DIL.

I can't fix this any which way I try. So we pray and pray and pray. But it's breaking my heart every day and I can't live like this.

Sadly you cannot fix it, but do not lose hope! If she is BPD, it is not unusual for there to be an intensity to the relationship between your son and DIL. The dynamics shift and change, and over time it is possible that things will change, both with them, and in your son's relationship with you. My mom was uBPD. As I've begun to understand more and more about BPD, it is much clearer to me how the dynamics work. Of course I only know from a child to parent relationship perspective, but I also watched first hand what went on between my parents.

I am going to post a couple of links for you. One is about BPD in general, and the other is about the Karpman drama triangle. For the longest time I could not understand how my dad would side with my uBPDm and then abuse my siblings and I, but when I look at the triangle and grasp the significance, now I get it. Whoever makes up two sides of the triangle at any given time as being supportive of one another, those are the two that tend to see the third side as being the drama side. I'm not sure I'm doing the best job of explaining, and please do read the article as it goes into greater detail and explanation. The short story from what I can gather is that when my uBPDm saw us kids as being trouble, then she joined with and asked our dad to support her and then to punish us. Is it possible that your DIL is one side, your son has joined with her to defend her, and then you and your DH become the third side?

https://bpdfamily.com/content/karpman-drama-triangle
https://bpdfamily.com/content/Dr-Jekyll-and-Mr-Hyde

Have you and/or your husband reached out to a counselor who is familiar with BPD? Finding a T who is a good fit can be immensely helpful to aid you in walking through this minefield which you do not understand.

 
Wools

[Notwendy]

Hi Gracie,

I faced similar dynamics with my parents as an adult daughter. I also learned that my father didn't have much contact with his family after he married my BPDmom. If I can give you hope- it is that babies are cute. They don't talk back. Once they begin to establish their own will, this can clash with the mother who has BPD. When we got older, my father's FOO welcomed us with open arms and open hearts. I may not have seen my grandmother a lot when I was little, but we kids did see her regularly as pre-teens and teens.

My father and I shared some common interests and he also helped me with homework growing up. My mother seemed to feel threatened by our relationship. Woolspinner has given you links to the Karpman triangle that explains the dynamics. When I stood up to my mother as a teen and later as an adult , she went into "victim mode".

I didn't understand my father's role in this until much later, when I had to deal with my own co-dependency traits that I learned in childhood. My father was the rescuer and enabler. If my mother went into victim mode against anyone- his family, me- my father would rescue her. My mother sees people as either on her side or against her, and puts people in a position to choose. My father's role as her rescuer was the stronger bond- stronger than his relationship with his mother and as I would later learn, stronger than his bond with his daughter.

I don't think you did anything wrong. I think that the love a son has with his mother, or his daughter is some kind of threat to the wife with BPD.  I am a mother now, and this makes no sense to me. Both my H and I love our kids and it isn't any threat to the marriage. But I can see how it could be to a disturbed person.

Is there hope? I think yes, because, kids grow up. I was a good kid, didn't do anything really bad as a teen, but like most teens, had a mouth sometimes. Well that was the end of the world with BPD mom ,and if we got to stay with dad's family when mom couldn't handle us, well all the better. I hope that this is the case for you.

I think it is important to stay off the "triangle". How? By being neutral and non reactive. Don't stay away away completely- then the wife can say "see your parents abandoned you". But also don't push.

Does your son work? If so then that is the address to send cards to. Cards to the house will get tossed in the trash if wife gets them first. Phone messages and e mails can be read. When I called my father on the phone ( house phone in those days)- my mother listened in on the extension. She read the emails I sent him. If you can, send notes to your son at work. Make them lighthearted and cheery. Don't demand he do anything, or expect a reply- just sent them- on his birthday, on the baby's birthday " thinking of your little one" and write news from home " your dad and I took a trip, the neighbor has a new grandbaby" . By doing this, he will know you are still there, you love him, regardless of his situation.

It isn't just her. It is him that is allowing this. His role on the triangle is something he chose. The bond is strong, stronger than I ever imagined. I know you are hurting. I believe he is also having a lot to deal with. Other posters in your shoes have made a good point about going on with their lives. This is a tough one, one to seek counseling about if that helps. This hurts, but feeling hurt won't bring him back. You mentioned expressing hurt. It isn't that you expressed it- but when you expressed hurt in front of her - you competed with her for victim mode.


By being neutral- you are neither victim nor persecutor. By taking care of your own pain, getting on with your life- you are not making your son the cause of the pain. Showing your emotional hurt to him puts him in a tough place- your hurt or hers. Staying neutral, keeping the door open - is , IMHO, the best chance of having a relationship with him in the future if there is a chance.

[gracie-em]

Does your son work? If so then that is the address to send cards to. Cards to the house will get tossed in the trash if wife gets them first. Phone messages and e mails can be read. When I called my father on the phone ( house phone in those days)- my mother listened in on the extension. She read the emails I sent him. If you can, send notes to your son at work. Make them lighthearted and cheery. Don't demand he do anything, or expect a reply- just sent them- on his birthday, on the baby's birthday " thinking of your little one" and write news from home " your dad and I took a trip, the neighbor has a new grandbaby" . By doing this, he will know you are still there, you love him, regardless of his situation.

Hi Notwendy,
Our son does work but I'm not sure if he would appreciate mail sent there. He started out contract and I don't know if he's been hired yet (he's supposed to be by now). Would I be taking a chance that this would make him angry if he got personal mail at work? I don't know if it's allowed.

I've suspected that some of his texts might have actually come from her, but there is no way to prove it. I've tried calling or texting when he's on business in another state and I know she's not with him but he still doesn't respond. (I only knew this because he talked to my mom and told her that.)

It's so weird because in August he told me things were fine between us (he was having issue with his mil and wanted his wife to talk to her) and the next thing I know he's texting me upset with a compliment I paid him on social media for a painting he did. So I got blocked from social media but the mil gets to stay. (His dad isn't blocked is the only way I know that.) But nothing is wrong between us. His mil still gets to see them and I doubt the wife ever said a thing to her.

I have wondered about contacting him at work, but if he wanted contact with us wouldn't he call when she isn't around? That's what he used to do until his dad called him out on his abusive talk to me - which at times could have been her because it was text. I wonder if she used that to convince him we don't love him, despite the fact that we've shown that and told him so a zillion times in his life.

I'm not a fan of divorce at all - but do guys like our son ever wake up to the hold the BPD wife has over them and leave? I mean when the baby was born it was my son doing all the work. She acted all afraid to be a mom. I've wondered if she will eventually be jealous of our granddaughter. You confirmed my suspicions. I wish our son could see that.

The worst part is that people warned him about her when he dated her a year and he finally broke it off. But two years later he went back to her and no one dared say anything against her then. But she lied to him and he knows it - yet that "love" won out. I don't think he understands this isn't love - not the healthy kind.

[gracie-em]

The short story from what I can gather is that when my uBPDm saw us kids as being trouble, then she joined with and asked our dad to support her and then to punish us. Is it possible that your DIL is one side, your son has joined with her to defend her, and then you and your DH become the third side?

https://bpdfamily.com/content/karpman-drama-triangle
https://bpdfamily.com/content/Dr-Jekyll-and-Mr-Hyde

Have you and/or your husband reached out to a counselor who is familiar with BPD? Finding a T who is a good fit can be immensely helpful to aid you in walking through this minefield which you do not understand.

 
Wools

Thank you for these links, Wools! I will look them up today. I have gone to counseling when this all first began but the woman didn't seem to understand BPD. But at that time things weren't as bad as they are now. I talked to two friends who are counselors and explained the whole thing to one who thought BPD immediately. She told me to read STOP WALKING ON EGGSHELLS and I've read that and another book on the subject since. But I'm not sure she's the one who's the right fit for us to counsel. Maybe a little too pushy for me.

The other one runs a clinic and recommended two people but I don't know if they understand BPD. I may check into them though and find out. I really do need to learn how to cope. I fear for what our granddaughter will grow up with.
Gracie

[Notwendy]

This is heartbreaking. I would not jeopardize his job if you aren't certain he can get mail there. Some office jobs and jobs like teaching or health care receive volumes of business mail. A letter would just be another letter. But as a contract worker- this is not his business address.

My dad did work in an office so if I wanted to communicate with him alone I could send a letter there. But that option wasn't there when he retired. Anything sent to the house was scrutinized by my mother.

Even if your son doesn't respond -  I'd send short texts once in a while- while he is at work if you can- so he has a chance to maybe see them first. I agree with giving him space but just let him know the door is open. Something like wish him happy birthday or a holiday.

For baby's birthday or Christmas- you don't know if a gift got there. One idea is to start a small savings account. Instead of buying a gift- put that money in it for her when she is 18. Send a message- we started a college savings for her and made a deposit in honor of her birthday. It's still your money ( in your name) . You don't know the future- but if there is contact- the gift would be hers-  not intercepted by her mother.

Will you son figure her out and do something? That is uncertain.  Some get divorced and some do not. He would have to come to his own conclusion. He may be controlled by her,  but he is also responsible for his choices. That may be an issue with him. It's hard to not take this personally but it isn't about you or what you did.  It's the dynamic between them. My father made this choice too- and it was sad for me. I wasn't a perfect daughter but I was a good one and I loved him ( he is deceased and I am middle age) . I'm a mom too and there are no perfect parents -  but one error should not end that relationship. I've been on the side of unforgivable according to my mother -  but BPD feelings can be fleeting. I am glad you are seeing a counselor- for your own sake and to navigate these dynamics. Staying out of the roles of victim, perscutor, or rescuer is a good idea.

[gracie-em]

Even if your son doesn't respond -  I'd send short texts once in a while- while he is at work if you can- so he has a chance to maybe see them first. I agree with giving him space but just let him know the door is open. Something like wish him happy birthday or a holiday.

For baby's birthday or Christmas- you don't know if a gift got there. One idea is to start a small savings account. Instead of buying a gift- put that money in it for her when she is 18. Send a message- we started a college savings for her and made a deposit in honor of her birthday. It's still your money ( in your name) . You don't know the future- but if there is contact- the gift would be hers-  not intercepted by her mother.

Thank you for these suggestions. I've thought of the idea of a bank account for grand baby. I do think that if I have to send something to his home that I will text him at work so he knows that it is coming. If he chooses to let her pitch it, then at least he knows. I can't see that happening often, but perhaps once in a while.

I really appreciate the comments, especially from those of you who were raised by a BPD mom. I have a better idea what could be in store for our granddaughter.

The saddest thing to me right now is that he talks to his brothers and even his grandmother. He allows aunts, uncles, cousins, even his dad (my husband) to remain "friends" on social media - even allows this to his mil. Just not to me. That feels personal and punishing and really not deserved. I can only apologize so much. Especially when I don't know (because they won't tell us) what we/I did wrong. But I have to accept that it probably isn't what I did, but what he perceived and it's been enhanced against me by her because I'm "competition" or something... .

[Notwendy]

I know it hurts that he is in touch with other family members, but it is great that he isn't cut off from them. A relationship with a pwBPD can be progressively isolating. You would notice this if he starts to cut contact with others too.

His wife may be behind this. She can see who he friends on social media. He's also responsible for this, but may be doing it not to you, but to avoid her wrath if he does.

A son of a good mother will naturally feel close to her, and I think you understand that this relationship has boundaries and you respect that. Someone who isn't secure could feel threatened by this.

I was close to my father growing up. But as an adult, she knew I was "on" to her. When he was sick in his elder years, I would make meals for him. My mom didn't like me doting on him. She would make snide comments about it. Maybe she felt threatened by a daughter's love because we didn't have the issues a married couple would have. Maybe your DIL feels the same about you. Who knows?

But because he is connected to other members of the family- you know he is connected. I would resist the urge to have others report to you. That sense of a triangle would possibly result in them cutting them off too. My mother is not on social media- she is elderly and it is not her thing. But her enmeshed family is on there. I don't post personal stuff, but if I post anything about my kids, it gets reported to her by her family before I even have a chance to speak to her. I don't keep that info from her- but she tells them I do, and they feel obliged to "report" my posts to her.

Hang in there. BPD emotions are sometimes fleeting. It may not be immediate, but as things play out, there could be contact in the future. I think it's important to understand that letting go of expectations isn't the same as letting complete go of hope.

[gracie-em]

[quote author=Notwendy link=topic=304955.msg12839453#msg12839453 date=1485124384
Hang in there. BPD emotions are sometimes fleeting. It may not be immediate, but as things play out, there could be contact in the future. I think it's important to understand that letting go of expectations isn't the same as letting complete go of hope.
[/quote]

I've been told that it's unfair to "diagnose" or even have professional friends diagnose my dil as a BPD without them knowing her. It's true she's been through a lot of trauma/change this past year. It's also true that both my son and dil have to deal with their own issues. And for whatever reason that she isn't saying, my dil doesn't like me. She won't tell me what I did.

Am I wrong to conclude this about her when she fits so many parameters and when I don't really know her background? I'd feel terrible if I'm so totally wrong. Maybe she just hates her mother-in-law? Is that normal - and not willing to talk about it - is that normal?

Just trying to understand.

[Notwendy]

We aren't professionals- so it is wrong to label someone as BPD for the purpose of helping/treating/labeling them in any official way.

Many of us aren't sure of the diagnosis or the person we speak of has not been formally diagnosed. I do think we are capable of recognizing patterns of behavior and how we play a part in the relationship. This board is for people in a relationship with someone who exhibits BPD behavior, but the label isn't just for them, it's for us.

Because we are incapable of changing the person with BPD, the label works in a sense for us, not for them. We use the tools to gain skills and make changes if we need to. Often this benefits us in other ways.

People who are in a relationship with someone with BPD often have their own emotional issues that "match" the dysfunction in some way and they can work on that part. Dysfunction also affects families in general. Some choose their partner- like your son did. Others didn't have the choice- like you, or children, or parents. We use the label in order to relate better and to diminish the drama in our own lives.

 

[gracie-em]

Many of us aren't sure of the diagnosis or the person we speak of has not been formally diagnosed. I do think we are capable of recognizing patterns of behavior and how we play a part in the relationship. This board is for people in a relationship with someone who exhibits BPD behavior, but the label isn't just for them, it's for us.

People who are in a relationship with someone with BPD often have their own emotional issues that "match" the dysfunction in some way and they can work on that part. Dysfunction also affects families in general. Some choose their partner- like your son did. Others didn't have the choice- like you, or children, or parents. We use the label in order to relate better and to diminish the drama in our own lives. 

Thanks. That helps. When I've sought help for what's going on people tell me the behavior I'm seeing is not normal. But there is also the fact that the couple has been through a lot of trauma in a year, so that seems a likely excuse for baggage. But I've got baggage - we all do, imho. I've can't imagine being purposely cruel to a loved one because of past issues.

But I've also been accused of diagnosing from a distance, though it was not me who suggested BPD but a trained counselor. I'm grateful you all are open on this group. I feel like maybe I'm not seeing it as wrongly as I'm sometimes made to feel. It's just an impossible situation.

[Mitchell]

Hi

I'm sure its the same where you live GP's wont get involved and even if they did many would refuse to go to a psychiatrist and never be diagnosed. If you knew their GP you could run it passed him chances are he wont talk. Once I found out what I thought was wrong with my mother and run it passed the GP she then and only then agreed that is what she always thought.

Another thought send her a gift and an apology pretend you like her and gain trust (probability she'll see through this they are very good at reading others) If you could gain trust then slowly work on your son. If she is disordered then his life will be chaos and how he'll react know one knows. Mainly just let your son know you are there for him no matter what, which I'm sure he truly knows. 

Thinking of you both


Mitch
         

[gracie-em]

Another thought send her a gift and an apology pretend you like her and gain trust (probability she'll see through this they are very good at reading others) If you could gain trust then slowly work on your son. If she is disordered then his life will be chaos and how he'll react know one knows. Mainly just let your son know you are there for him no matter what, which I'm sure he truly knows. 

Thinking of you both


Mitch
         

Thanks, Mitch. I've tried the gift thing in the past. It backfired. I was accused of "stalking her". I still don't understand that despite kids trying to explain it. I simply sent chocolates to try to make amends and start over. I just don't think she likes me.

I did reach out to her mom for advice on whether she would accept a note of apology in another attempt to start over (it's been over a year since those chocolates) because we got off on the wrong foot two years ago, but her mother is not responding to me. Maybe she's struggling with her own issues.

So I'm letting it go. They want space obviously, so I will pray for them all every day - I can't help but pray - but I am not going to contact them unless enough time has passed and it's a short note. I think my son married into a family with some issues - don't know who has them - and he's got his own.

I don't know what his issues are and that can make me feel like it's my fault but honestly, I know we were good parents who loved all of our kids. But we aren't perfect, so... .I guess I'll never know if he doesn't tell me. But maybe I don't want to know since he used to tell me he loved me very much. I just can't believe the 180 degree change.

Wish I had a "do-over" button. But I would have just made different mistakes, I'm sure.

Thanks for the encouragement.
Gracie