"Are you sure it's not you ?"

[Depression = 72% of members]

Hello everyone  

For some months I’ve been in very LC with my FOO now.
(My story is here : https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=294148.0)

Mainly the LC/NC was not even a personal choice. The moment my parents understood that I was going to have boundaries, they kind of stopped inviting me to family dinners . This was ok for me because I had made up my mind anyway to stop going. My parents never show a real interest and do not visit me/my daughter, so I was tired of visiting them on holidays to just have pictures afterwards to play happy family. So as they never visit me, and I stopped going to them on holidays, we do not see each other anymore.
Since then both of my parents tell people they are not allowed to see their grandchild (not true). I don’t know if they really believe that themselves.  Some time ago my mum asked me if they could see their grandchild because they happened to be in the area. I said ‘yes but unfortunately not today because we are out’. She was not happy about that. So maybe it’s perceived as ‘you are not allowed to see her’. But well, she’s BPD, things will always be perceived wrongly, and that’s not really my point here.
The point is that my daughter is suffering from this all. She wants that grandma and grandpa are normal, and visit her. (I guess not once a year, like part of a control game with me, and when they happen to be in the area, but regularly, because they are her grandparents)
I try to teach her about radical acceptance, but it’s not easy. Sometimes she’s asking me to ‘try a last time with them’, ‘please phone one more time’, etc.  Some days ago she asked me : “why are all of the people of your family behaving strangely ? Are you sure it’s not you ?”  Something inside me just snapped. I am so sick and tired to explain about  dysfunctionality in my FOO. And now my sweet little kid is asking me if it’s not me. She knows my mum’s and grandma’s behavior is off sometimes, I’m open about that, I think it’s important. But now maybe I went too far, because I just did not have an answer . I told her the odd behavior has a name, BPD, and if you grow up with a BPD mum like my dad, sometimes you choose a BPD spouse because you repeat patterns. Mainly I gave her the ‘adult explanation’ for why ‘everyone’ is off. I was so triggered by her question. I am starting to be afraid that my mum is going to side her against me. She’s telling people that her grandchild is not allowed to see her, she’s already told me that I am the one having BPD…maybe she’ll tell my daughter the same … (they will meet this weekend because my mother has dragged my ex into this, who agreed that they could all meet through him. I’m very ok with that : he’s aware of the dynamics and it’s a way for my child to meet her grandparents – if this is the only way it’s ok for me.)
This woman has ruined my childhood already, I don’t want to lose my daughter to her.
My therapist told me not to worry too much,  that kids always believe their mother. This was before the ‘are you sure it’s not you?’ question.

Suggestions please ? I’m afraid to lose my girl or at least the good relationship we’re having.
I don’t see clear anymore. (That’s probably why I’m rambling   :-P   )

[Fie]

Hello everyone  

For some months I’ve been in very LC with my FOO now.
(My story is here : https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=294148.0)

Mainly the LC/NC was not even a personal choice. The moment my parents understood that I was going to have boundaries, they kind of stopped inviting me to family dinners . This was ok for me because I had made up my mind anyway to stop going. My parents never show a real interest and do not visit me/my daughter, so I was tired of visiting them on holidays to just have pictures afterwards to play happy family. So as they never visit me, and I stopped going to them on holidays, we do not see each other anymore.
Since then both of my parents tell people they are not allowed to see their grandchild (not true). I don’t know if they really believe that themselves.  Some time ago my mum asked me if they could see their grandchild because they happened to be in the area. I said ‘yes but unfortunately not today because we are out’. She was not happy about that. So maybe it’s perceived as ‘you are not allowed to see her’. But well, she’s BPD, things will always be perceived wrongly, and that’s not really my point here.
The point is that my daughter is suffering from this all. She wants that grandma and grandpa are normal, and visit her. (I guess not once a year, like part of a control game with me, and when they happen to be in the area, but regularly, because they are her grandparents)
I try to teach her about radical acceptance, but it’s not easy. Sometimes she’s asking me to ‘try a last time with them’, ‘please phone one more time’, etc.  Some days ago she asked me : “why are all of the people of your family behaving strangely ? Are you sure it’s not you ?”  Something inside me just snapped. I am so sick and tired to explain about  dysfunctionality in my FOO. And now my sweet little kid is asking me if it’s not me. She knows my mum’s and grandma’s behavior is off sometimes, I’m open about that, I think it’s important. But now maybe I went too far, because I just did not have an answer . I told her the odd behavior has a name, BPD, and if you grow up with a BPD mum like my dad, sometimes you choose a BPD spouse because you repeat patterns. Mainly I gave her the ‘adult explanation’ for why ‘everyone’ is off. I was so triggered by her question. I am starting to be afraid that my mum is going to side her against me. She’s telling people that her grandchild is not allowed to see her, she’s already told me that I am the one having BPD…maybe she’ll tell my daughter the same … (they will meet this weekend because my mother has dragged my ex into this, who agreed that they could all meet through him. I’m very ok with that : he’s aware of the dynamics and it’s a way for my child to meet her grandparents – if this is the only way it’s ok for me.)
This woman has ruined my childhood already, I don’t want to lose my daughter to her.
My therapist told me not to worry too much,  that kids always believe their mother. This was before the ‘are you sure it’s not you?’ question.

Suggestions please ? I’m afraid to lose my girl or at least the good relationship we’re having.
I don’t see clear anymore. (That’s probably why I’m rambling   :-P   )

[muff]

I am by no means an expert in all this, so know that from the outset, but I do have a few thoughts after reading your story. I have a very similar situation. My teenage son has seen my mother's BPD behavior up close and personal, first-hand, and it made complete sense to him when I explained what was going on, and what I had learned through therapy and research, and we both stayed away from her and were in agreement on that. However, once when my son was upset with me about a punishment, he turned this back on me and said his grandma was probably fine and I was the one with the problem. Now, with everything I've learned about family systems that are dysfunctional and how BPD works, I immediately saw this for what it was. He was gaslighting me. Not because he's a bad son or a bad person, but because his grandmother, and me, his own mother (because I learned this from her) have taught him how to triangulate and gaslight and "fight" in our FOO in that dysfunctional way. Your daughter may be blaming you for something she experiences as a loss (of her grandparents) and in order to get you to give up all this very logical psychological stuff, she may be pushing a BPD button of her own. And that should not surprise you. I don't consider myself BPD, but I recognize that I exhibit a few traits that I've learned. You may have learned a few, as well, and may have unknowingly passed them along. This will always be a huge regret for me, and something I have to forgive myself for pretty much daily. And again, this is not to say your daughter has BPD or that she's a bad person or any of that. But these behaviors can creep in when they're modeled for us by mothers with severe BPD (like mine), and once we recognize them, all we can do is nip them in the bud without drama and try to keep them out of our own lives and behaviors.

The other thing that strikes me is this: your mother sounds like she's been very busy creating triangles, not only with your daughter, but also with your ex. This may seem innocent and benign to you, but I've learned that my mother never creates a triangle with anything but deception and control in mind. I do not allow my mother to put me in any triangles anymore, period.

Unfortunately, I have no advice for you on how to proceed. I'm still new to this and trying to figure those things out for myself, too. But I do see some red flags in your story that I recognize from my own experience, and I share them only in the hopes that they will help. I hope I haven't upset you. I know that as people have "illuminated" my mother's behaviors (and even some of my son's behaviors) to me, it can be been upsetting. And that is not my intention. Much love to you, and I wish you well.

[Naughty Nibbler]

Hi Fie:
I'm sorry about what's going on.  Could your daughter be comparing her situation to that of her friends (who might have normal grandparents and a more normal relationship)?  Is there any extended family that you can both socialize with (to perhaps fill the gap)?

I am starting to be afraid that my mum is going to side her against me. She’s telling people that her grandchild is not allowed to see her, she’s already told me that I am the one having BPD…maybe she’ll tell my daughter the same …

If I understand correctly, your daughter's father understands the issues with your FOO.  Sounds like he will supervise the visit, right?  Those combined circumstances should provide a safety net. 

Someone in your FOO could be telling your daughter that you are the problem.  I tend to think your daughter didn't come up with the idea on her own.  Unless your mom is able to put your daughter in "golden child" status and keep her there, you daughter will likely continue to see odd behavior from your mom.  The more disturbing behavior your daughter witnesses, the more she will understand that you aren't the problem.  As long as the visits are supervised, the potential for damage is reduced.

Have you tried talking to your daughter from the prospective that your mom has been unkind to you and had done hurtful things to you? (relate it to a discussion on boundaries).  Perhaps your therapist can help you word it.

[Fie]

Hello Muff ! I appreciate your thoughts on this. I am sorry you are feeling like you passed on some BPD traits. Do not beat yourself up too much for this. You are realizing the dynamics, which is the most important thing.
I do not think my child is pushing a BPD button with her question, she’s emotionally quite intelligent for her age (she’s 8) and we talk calmly about everything. You did make me realize though, that she is really thinking about this a lot, and exploring all options. The option before this was asking me if I really, really did not want to try a last  time with grandma. I said no. So now maybe she thinks, well, let’s ask mum if it’s not her. I do not see BPD in this question, since I do not feel like she’s trying to manipulate me. I think her question is a sincere one. But thank you for making me think about this ! I do know that sometimes she is thinking too much for her own good. She’s a happy child in general, but very sensitive and she’s a thinker. I guess she’s got that from me, that’s the thing that I passed on… and I realize that’s not so positive. My T told me to stop thinking so much, and to stop wanting to explain everything to my child if I do it out of a sense of fear. She said to just calm down and trust everything was going to be ok. (Very difficult for me)
You are right about the triangle, and I am realizing my parents suddenly wanting to see my daughter has a lot to do with power. I feel like it’s a power struggle now. They never really took an active interest in me nor my child, and now they are feeling they are loosing grip, they are suddenly there.

Thank you NN for stepping in again !
It is possible that my daughter is comparing yes. I have one aunt that I visit sometimes, that’s it. She has her dad, and luckily his family members have a more active interests in my daughter. Unfortunately the grandma there is also BPD. But she behaves quite normal towards my daughter these days. I do talk about everything and I point out when somethings’s off. My ex married and his wife is great with my kid. This wife has a rather large family, and all of the cousins  are considered cousins of my daughter too. So she’s really part of something bigger. I am so happy for that. She also has a baby brother now.
Yes my ex is aware more or less of the dynamics, I recently told him. He’s a huge enabler of his own mum’s behavior though and is not 100% healthy himself (autist?). The main reason we split up was his huge projected anger on me. I left him because I could not cope with that anymore. So we are not  friends or so, but we are putting an effort. It is difficult when his anger is popping up, but now is fortunately a good period.
He’s probably realizing he’s in a triangle suddenly, because he said he will do this visit with my daughter once, and will then tell my parents they can contact me from now on, since I have told him that they are actually allowed to see my daughter. As much as it’s better for me that I don’t see my parents myself and the visit would be through him, I do feel somewhat relieved because I hated the feeling of being in a possible triangle.
My daughter knows that my mum was not such a sweet person towards her children, that she was angry a lot and that she was not loving. I also pointed out a lie my mother told me when my daughter was present, so she’s aware of the possibility that even grownups lie.
I am starting to be so tired from this. My daughter was too small to manipulate, so my mother was not interested in her. Now she’s a little older, maybe my mum thinks : o well, we have a new person to drag in… Somewhere deep inside me something is telling me that it’s almost enough. Maybe it’s better to keep my daughter from my FOO actually. Then I am done with all of the questions of my child, and no one gets hurt or stressed anymore.

But I still think it’s better not to do it. My daughter risks to resent that. And then my mother will actually be right. (Maybe subconsciously that’s even what she’s aiming at ?)
I also realize my part in this. I could just stop worrying. A lot of parents would just say : ‘No, you can’t see grandma’. Or ‘yes you can see her and no I’m not the problem’. Done. Why do I always want to explain so much ? Why don’t I have the trust to just believe everything is going to be alright ?
My mum sided my sister against me. She can do the same with my daughter. Somewhere deep inside I have even thought the solution will be there once she dies.  And that is horrible. But what good is a mum if she does not behave like a mum, but like an enemy ?
I think I just found the answer to my daughter’s question : “why is *everyone* in your FOO against you?” : because my mum makes them  

[Notwendy]

Hi Fie,

I understand how this comment would upset you. We've been "blamed" by our mothers (and in my case, her family too) for being the cause of the issues. In fact, my mother managed to convince me of this so well that once I left for college, I believed my parents would finally be happy and get along.

We know now that this isn't true. When I became a parent, I wanted a better relationship with my kids. It was hard to take some of the things they said when they were upset. It was not only triggering, it made me fear they would dislike me like I dislike my mother.

It didn't happen. I am not my mother, and neither are you. We don't treat our children like our mothers do.

Your child says this from a child's perspective. She's seen this on the playground. Kids get mad at each other, maybe one takes another child's toy. The parents intervene, make the kids apologize, they run off and play. They have no idea that this isn't the case in the adult world with our mothers. I don't know how old your child is, but she may be thinking - did Mommy take Grandmas' toy- something on that level.

As a teen, she may get angry at you. It is hard to go through that teen stuff with a moody teen and not fear your child will hate you. ( even if they are mad as heck at you at the moment) but it is what we parents have to do- put limits on kids, say no sometimes, and they will get angry. Again though- if we are loving, consistent parents, and our children do not have a mental illness, we are unlikely to recreate the same relationship we have with our mother.

People get angry at each other sometimes, and it isn't the end of the world. We didn't experience that with our mothers, where when they got angry- there were rage outbursts and we felt they wouldn't forgive us. It was scary. I don't think your child is asking this from the same perspective. She may wonder why you two don't just make up, like on the playground.

The answers will get more sophisticated as she gets older. Yes, she wants a grandma like her friends have. We wanted a mother like our friends have. But we got the ones we have. They may not understand- and grieve sometimes. We can validate that. Say "I know you wish this, I wish this too. And if it was me, honey, I would do what I could to fix it, but it isn't me."

[Fie]

Thank you Notwendy. Thank you for pointing out that at some points as a teenager my daughter will be angry at me. I know this will freak the hell out of me so it's so good you are warning me for this. So I can prepare myself psychologically. 

In the meantime we talked about it (again). I explained that in some families most of the members just like fighting. And usually they like to fight the most with people who do not want to participate, like finding a black sheep. My daughter response was quite cute : 'ok, I understand, but a white sheep, you are not like an angry black sheep'.

After that she made a remark about how today at school there had been a fight. Some girls wanted to pick a fight with her and said : 'haha look we have found some allies here and you are on your own'. My daughter said 'I don't need allies, I prefer to be on my own and not fight'.

Life felt a little lighter after that  :-)


I want to thank you all very humbly for helping out. I like raising my kid by myself, I am pretty strong and independent. But sometimes I miss a second opinion. I talk to friends, sure, but most of them do not have a clue about BPD so they don't fully grasp it. I also think most of the people do not go so deep into conversations with their children, they think 'they will be ok', without all of the talking.  So again, thank you so much.

If there are more good suggestions, please keep them coming.

I wish I knew you all in person   

[Woolspinner2000]

Hi Fie! 

I'm glad you are thinking and asking these questions. There are so many good comments already from others. 

My children are older now, and fortunately, we lived far away from my uBPDm, their grandma. I didn't know about BPD back then when they were growing up, so I only had my own personal experience to gauge how she was with me, and I was very thankful to live far away. My sister on the other hand, lived within 20 min. of our mom, and she told me after our mom died a few years ago, how fortunate I was that I didn't live close because mom would've tried to take over my life and my children like she did with my sister. That being said, there were choices I made to help protect my children when we did visit or when she came up to visit us.

I strongly desired to protect my children from "seeing" the true uBPDm that I saw. On the other hand, I was very conscious about letting them see Grandma for who she was, not trying to make up their minds for them. I didn't want to paint her as evil to my children, and I hoped that she would be seen as an okay Grandma, knowing when my children were older that they could make up their own minds. I did not leave my children alone with her (as much as I can remember-my oldest is 30, youngest is 22). My mom was good around them, she didn't show her BPD side when they were around thankfully, but her visits were short. If the kids were not there, then yes, it would clearly come out. 

I think it was when my middle child was about 12 years old that she now tells me she saw that something wasn't right about Grandma. It was years later when a grown adult child of 22 that Grandma split this D of ours black, all during a visit in the summer. Our D called me crying on the phone and wondered what to do. I remember my heart dropping to the bottom when I said, "Oh dear... .I had hoped you would never see that happen. It is what I grew up with. I'm so sorry." I shared tools with her to help her set up boundaries right away and keep herself healthy. Thankfully she was an adult, she had her aunt & uncle there to protect her, and she learned what BPD was in very short order.

I'm still fairly careful how much I share about my uBPDm with them. They knew her as Grandma and that something was clearly wrong. They do have some pretty funny memories of things Grandma would say which still amuses them. However, like Notwendy said,

I am not my mother, and neither are you. We don't treat our children like our mothers do.

How thankful I am that I chose to be a better parent. You are doing so as well.  I am not trying to tell you which way to go, for it is definitely a personal choice. Whatever you feel is best and healthy is the way to go, and I am glad you are asking others and seeking wisdom. You may come up with a decision that is a combination of things, choices that you remain in control of that you can be okay with and set limits regarding. Keep thinking, searching, and it sounds like you have a child with a good head already. 

Wools

[Fie]

Hi all  

My child has recently developed this attitude where she points out that I should be careful that others don't find me annoying.
F.e. I had this discussion with her teacher, where I pointed out something that the teacher didn't agree with. My daughter now says : 'I have a difficult teacher, I know how to handle her. Please stay out of everything, there are already enough people who think you are annoying, like your family'. She thinks I should stay out of 'fights' with people.

I told her that a discussion is not a fight, and that everyone at some point can be found annoying by others, and that that does not mean that we 'are' or 'are always thought of as' annoying.

I am grateful my child dears to be open with me and share how she feels. Yesterday she said she does know that  I am not the 'problem', but my family is. But that still sometimes she forgets that and needs to be reminded.
So I do encourage her to talk freely, even if everything does not sound so positive for me as a person. But it's so difficult !

I think everything is very confusing for her. I might have added to that, since I have told her that her grandparents were really no great parents (nor grandparents) and I elaborated about it (pointed out some of the things they did). I have the feeling I have put too much weight on her shoulders by doing this. But it seemed like the only thing to do to make her understand that the behavior of my parents is not ok (she just does not see them enough to see sufficient proof of that herself), and that *I* am not the problem here, but them.

Any tips please ?  I am beating myself up a bit. As a child I considered myself abnormal, and difficult, since my parents installed this believe in me obviously. I am doing better now. But I realize that I really take this way of thinking of my child to heart, and I am starting to think I am actually annoying sometimes. I do not get offended by people easily, and I can take on a lot. But I do also sometimes want to share my opinion with people and my way of communication is quite direct. I do realize that some people don't like that, but for me this just feels authentic. Lately though I tend to avoid speaking up for what I believe in, when I know that people won't like what I have to say. Especially when I notice that my daughter thinks that other people might perceive me as annoying.

Not only that, but by thinking this way I fear I might not think clear enough to have a healthy approach to explain things to my child, neither ... . :-(

What does also not help is that lately I have been feeling a little lonely (but I guess the loneliness is rather caused by all of this, than the other way around ... ).

[Kwamina]

I told her that a discussion is not a fight, and that everyone at some point can be found annoying by others, and that that does not mean that we 'are' or 'are always thought of as' annoying.

I agree with you. Perhaps it can also help to tell your daughter that people aren't victims. Getting annoyed is just like getting triggered, that's 100% on them no matter what the other person does. Getting annoyed says more about how they cope with things. A more constructive way of responding would be for them to assert themselves.

Any tips please ?  I am beating myself up a bit. As a child I considered myself abnormal, and difficult, since my parents installed this believe in me obviously. I am doing better now. But I realize that I really take this way of thinking of my child to heart, and I am starting to think I am actually annoying sometimes. I do not get offended by people easily, and I can take on a lot. But I do also sometimes want to share my opinion with people and my way of communication is quite direct. I do realize that some people don't like that, but for me this just feels authentic. Lately though I tend to avoid speaking up for what I believe in, when I know that people won't like what I have to say. Especially when I notice that my daughter thinks that other people might perceive me as annoying.

Your daughter might be engaging in some mind-reading and jumping to conclusions when she says she thinks people might perceive you as annoying. Do you perhaps feel like your daughter is very sensitive to the approval or disapproval of others?

As far as your way of communicating is concerned, I think it is always positive to reflect on our own behavior and to consider if there are areas we might need to make some improvements. Having said that, if people for whatever reason do not like the way you communicate, that is again on them. They aren't victims and have options too, they can articulate how they feel and why they feel that way and can assert themselves constructively if they would like certain things to be different. If they however just sit there, act annoyed and totally blame you for them feeling annoyed, they aren't taking any responsibility for their own feelings and aren't taking any constructive actions to try and alter the situation so they would feel more comfortable.

Your daughter is still young and teenagers are often sensitive. The adults she talks about aren't so young though and perhaps would be better off if they'd learn more mature and constructive ways of expressing themselves.