How do you deal with ghosts?

[Hmcbart]

How to deal with ghosts?

I am used to having to censor everything I say to make sure it won't come back to bite me later in the form of an excuse for her actions.  I've heard so many times that she can't or won't do something (usually have sex with me) because of something I have said or done in the past.  It comes up so often I started calling her out in it. Recently it was in our marriage counseling session.  I was asking for my wife to have sex with me more than once or twice a year.  She quickly said she didn't have that emotional connection because of something I said in November. 

A few days later I was at my wits end and had to talk to her.  I told her that she always uses the same excuse.  She argued that it wasn't the same. Turns out what she meant was that the words were different.  After multiple tries at explaining it I settled on this. I ask for sex, you say you can't because of something I said, let's say for the sake of argument what I said was the word "popcorn" or "cookies".  The words don't matter it's the excuse that I'm talking about. 

She then switched everything up.  She told me that sometimes I can say something that will remind her of a bad emotional experience from before we met.  So she says that she isn't upset with me and I really didn't cause the thing that has her now upset.  The result is still the same. She doesn't have the emotional connection anymore. 

So that's it, not only do I have to fully censor myself at all times.  Now I have to figure out what ghosts are out there that can now be recalled to justify her actions and emotional hurt.  Yep, now I get to deal with ghosts.  Who ya gonna call?

We've been together 20 plus years and she has always told me that there was never any abuse of any kind.  But now she has the magical escape clause that can be used whenever she needs it.  I can't argue about it, I can't defend against it, I can only accept that is the reason and move on.  FML.

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[waverider]

She doesn't have the emotional connection anymore. 

This is the crux of it.

Maybe she has no idea why . Remember pwBPD are not really good at linking cause and effect. The cause is as often as not an excuse made up in hindsight to justify the emotional response of the moment. You are crediting too much reasoning consistency to dysfunctional mind

To get around this you would need to address the lack of emotional connection of the now rather than chasing the "ghost" causes of the past. They will disappear once they are no longer needed. By digging you are opening the closet in which they are hiding.

Asking a pwBPD "why is this so?" is in effect opening this closet of smoke and mirrors. Rarely is anything learned by doing this.

[Wrongturn1]

I think the best way to deal with those ghosts is not to worry about it and not try to censor yourself.  She has BPD, so a portion of the time, she will be unreasonable and largely unpredictable, regardless of what you do.  One of the healthiest things you can do is to set yourself free from worrying about it.  Of course, she still probably won't give you sex as often as would happen in a healthy marriage, but that's 100% her fault, not yours.  If you practice validating her emotions, that could improve the "emotional connection" between you two, but still no guarantees that would increase the frequency of sex because she has BPD and the normal rules of cause and effect don't always apply in a BPD relationship.

Btw, how is marriage counseling going?  How much improvement are you seeing in your relationship due to the counseling?  I usually see folks around here saying that marriage counseling does not help, but I'm curious as I still hold out a glimmer of hope that my uBPDw might eventually be open to the idea of MC.

[Hmcbart]

Wrongturn: MCis going pretty well. It has helped with the anger a lot.  She is trying to actually show affection and being more attentive to that aspect. 

There is still a huge disconnect between what is said and heard most days.  The only arguments have been because of my own frustrations.  Last night I spoke with her about my feelings. I was mainly focusing on sex. We have been writing love notes to each other as an exercise in MC.  I was explaining how I don't feel like she has any sexual attraction or feelings for me because she doesn't act on them. I told her that she says she has sexual attraction for me and says it's important to her but her actions do not show that.  She told me that she has acted on them.  She said she has acted on those feelings.  She said that writing the love notes and her spending time with me sitting and talking together is her acting on that sexual attraction and feeling.  Then she told me that to her sexual attraction is all of the things that could lead to sex and that for me it's only the sex part.  She then asked if we could agree to disagree on our interpretation of sexual attraction and feelings.

I tried to explain that it's not just sex to me.  If I just wanted sex I would have left along time ago. If I only wanted her for sex (something she's accused me of many times) I would not still be married to you when we have sex once or twice a year.  So it's not just about the sex but that has to be part of it.  I can't do all of the things she wants that lead up to sex but then never get to have  the actual physical part of it. 

As far as validating her more to help with the emotional connection, last night she said she does have that emotional connect and has never said she didn't.  I told her that is what she has always told me for why she can't or won't have sex.  So if she has the emotional connection and claims to have sexual attraction and feelings then why does she still not want to have the physical connection and actual sex.  She said she does but that's where I ended the conversation. 

I told her that for me to stay married I have to learn to deal with the fact that this will be a sexless marriage. She let me know it wasn't a sexless marriage because we just had sex in December.  I just laughed and said you are correct, so going off that logic and last year, I should be good to go for another 6-8 months, yep you're correct it's not a sexless marriage.  I told her that when one person in the relationship wants to have sex and the other does not, it's the one who does want it that has to learn to go without.  The one who does want it is the one who doesn't get a say in it any longer. 

We have MC again Friday.  I have my own session tonight.  The therapists we are both seeing for ourselves is also our marriage counselor.  I actually like that because she gets to hear both of us separate and then together.  It's only been a few weeks in MC but I'm not expecting much.  So far it's been a repeat of the last time.  She blames me and gets her feelings validated.  Those feelings then become her newest excuse for her actions and especially when it comes to sex.  She gets to use that as her new reason to say no.  I will keep trying but it's hard when it feels like you have done it all before and you know what the outcome is going to be.  It's like I can see the future but only because it's a repeat of the past. 

[Wrongturn1]

It sounds like you are doing all the things that a reasonable person could do as a spouse to provide your wife what she needs.  And you're going above and beyond by participating in marriage counseling and following through on your homework.  But it sounds like that is still not enough.  What I am seeing is that regardless of what you do, it is not making a difference in the frequency of sexual intimacy.  A reasonable deduction from this would be that your actions are not the cause of the problem and that the problem is internal to your wife.

So for you to continue to do everything your wife says she needs from you, then you expect the sexual frequency will pick up, it appears to me like you are playing the part of Charlie Brown lined up to kick that football, but then Lucy (your wife) moves it out of the way every time.

I have dealt with similar issues with my uBPDw, and the shift that occurred in my mind was that I moved to a mindset of "I'm going to treat my wife with kindness and consideration because that's what a good husband does; however, I'm not going to jump through a bunch of hoops that she specifies in hopes that these negative relationship dynamics will change - these undesirable dynamics are a result of her BPD, and I can't cure that*." 

Then I just had to figure out if I could live with the undesirable facets of our relationship, which I can and do.

* caveat:  this excludes abuse in the relationship; that's not acceptable, and I advocate that everyone implement boundaries to stop accepting abuse.

[Hmcbart]

I was journaling earlier about Charlie Brown and Lucy.  That's been my life for years.  I am at the point now where I have to figure out how to live in a sexless marriage.  I have accepted that I will never truly have a say in this part of my relationship.  I have accepted that the only way this will change is for me to leave or her to change and be more accommodating.  I know that of these two options, me leaving is the only one that I can control.  Now I'm just trying to figure out how to live with my decision.  How to get by knowing that once or twice a year is as good as it will get and to see that as a gift. 

I let her know that I do not want to talk about the subject if sex anymore.  I don't want her to reference it in any way.  Last night I asked her to watch tv in the other room so I could take care of things myself.  That went over about as well as expected.  So right now I'm trying to purge all reference to it to help me focus on other things.  I will most likely go back to working long hours and coming to bed after I'm sure she's already asleep.  At least until I can get my mind right and focus on abstinence.  I hate my life right now. 

[isilme]

Hmcbart,

I agree with Wrongturn1 in that it sounds like you've gone above and beyond anyone's reasonable (key word) expectations for a marriage without intimacy. 

We all seem to go forward thinking that if only we XYZ, things will go better, and we will get more from our partner than outbursts, blame, and rages.  But ultimately, it's really not us, not to the extent we believe, and not what our partners believe.  Sure, our actions can add fuel to an already burning flame, but like REM says, we didn't start the fire.  Trying to defend yourself can invalidate, and make an already dysregulating person feel they have something to actually complain about.  But it's rarely the actual issue that caused the dysregulation, and they may not even be aware of or able to articulate what really did.

And I hate to say it, but the less you talk about sex or how the lack makes you feel, the more she may be keen on it.  Like, as it is, if hse feels bad, she also knows she ahs the power to make you feel bad.  She may feel bad for reasons totally having nothing to do wit you, but as the person closest to her, you must share in her misery, and you've made it clear this is a hot topic for you (no pun intended).  Like a mean girl teenager, she just learned you want the last cookie, so she'll keep it from you just to spite you, because she feels you slighted her at some vague point and therefore deserve the slight. 

H's libido comes and goes, and he gets moody, will actually complain as I'm trying to initiate about everything from my timing (not now, I'll get sleepy, you waited too long, it's bed time, I've been waiting all day and you've left me disappointed), to how I'm not actually trying to initiate, to how he doesn't need pity sex, how he knows I hate it, etc.  He does everything to make me not want to initiate, and so I often don't even try - I'm tired and don't want to go through an hour of him complaining about everything ever.  Then he complains I never try.  There is no winning once the dysregulation has started, and sometimes I just try to wait out the cycle.  Sex is just too intimate I think for BPD to ever be easy about it once the relationship is 'real'.  In the beginning, in the super fun charismatic phase, when I guess they have less tied up in it, it seemed fine.  But to closer you are, the more difficult that seem to make it.

[Hmcbart]

Thanks isilme:

I have tried the whole dropping the issue completely before.  Last year after getting told all I did was nag nag nag about sex.  I decided to cut her off completely from sex.  I didn't bring it up at all. I didn't make any comments or insinuate anything.  She didn't bring it up once for 8 months.  When she did decide to bring it up, it wasn't because she was actually trying to initiate it with me.  She brought it up because she was accusing me of cheating on her. 

I told her the same thing as the last time she accused me of cheating.  I told her that if she feels she is doing everything she should be doing and to make sure that I don't cheat on her then she should not even be worried about it at all. 

That was the end of the conversation.  She still didn't initiate it and it was another 3 months before it actually happened but it was my idea and not hers. 

But I guess I still have my eyesight.  My mom was wrong and I haven't gone blind.   

[Hmcbart]

The part I'm struggling with this week I can't figure out.  I feel like I am on the verge of a complete mental and emotional break down.  I can't figure out why. Things have been going good the past few weeks. But I was wanting to have sex, I get that way when we are getting closer.  She pretty much turned me down flat fir it to happen this past weekend and then again on Monday when I was on the edge of the breakdown. 

I can't figure out why I'm feeling this way.  It's not like she's never said no.  It's not like I have been having sex more than 1-2 times a year for the last 15 years. It's not like I actually expected her to initiate anything after talking about it in therapy Friday.  But here I am, I've been going mad since Monday. I've been going mad about something that is not important at all to her.  Really in the grand sceam of things it's that important at all.  But I'm fixated on it and I can't let it go.

I wish there was a pill I could take to remove that desire completely. I would take it in a heart beat.  It's always been the biggest thing to cause arguments between us. If I could find a way to never think about it again I would.

[Wrongturn1]

Last night I asked her to watch tv in the other room so I could take care of things myself.  That went over about as well as expected.   

Gutsy move, Hmcbart!  Early in our marriage, at about the 1-year mark, I asked my uBPDw for sex one morning, and she politely declined and got out of bed.  So I took things into my own hands as it were, walked into the room where my wife was, and after she greeted me with a cheerful "good morning", I proclaimed something along the lines of "yes it is - I'm feeling better now; I just took care of things myself!" 

That did not go over well, and she launched into a long crying & yelling rage at me, eventually extracting a commitment from me under duress that I would not do that anymore.  In the couple of decades since then, masturbation has been a really touchy subject with her, and she tearfully accused me of it after she returned home from a trip a year or two ago, amped up to the level of as if I had cheated with another woman.  And actually I hadn't laid a hand on myself or anyone else, so I did my best to validate her feeling of insecurity and let her know I had done no such thing. 

That's not to say I haven't taken matters into my own hands on rare occasion during seasons of life when my wife was withholding.  Nothing to be ashamed of - I'd say anyone has a right to take care of things themselves when their spouses aren't willing.

But as for how it's getting to you, heck, I don't blame you.  Once or twice a year does not sound acceptable, although I have heard of people around here who get it less frequently than that. 

[isilme]

I can't figure out why I'm feeling this way.  It's not like she's never said no

I've not had a "dry spell" nearly as long as you, and yet I broke down crying around New Year's because H had turned me down each day of our break from work - each day for a week he had a reason to tell me no, but then would complain I was not trying hard enough, and I found myself crying in the living room which he discovered and it set off a fight. He tried to equate it with times I've been physically unable to do to scheduled lady issues, and I was like, but that ends, in a set number of days, and comes predictably.  I never know when I'm going to get shut down.  He also ignored this had been going on for a week (really for months but the entire week of consistent "nos" when being tired from work was not an excuse since we were on break just hit me), and pretended that morning was the first instance of me being turned down.  And I'm coming to this conversation as a woman O_o.

Taking care of things on my own - I've not tried it in any manner where I'd "get caught" as I fear it would just trigger more insecurity.  And he likes to accuse me of cheating, always complains that he "knows" I actually hate sex with him as he's no good at it, and that I "don't have to pretend".  I was a virgin when we met, and he's the only lover I've ever had, and he still makes comments that he knows I've "had a cock or two in my time"... .Um, just yours, honey.

I hate fighting with false impressions based on his low self-esteem instead of things I've actually done.  If really I said or did something mean or rude, I think I'd own up to it.  When I have spoken out in actual anger, I have apologized, because it was wrong.  But I've never cheated, never allowed myself to get close to it (I've had friendships I could see would have been potentials for it, and so I kept them super platonic and made sure to never allow myself to be in a situation where things would things would hurt my r/s with H).  I don't have sex with H, or I'd not seek it out.  His "logic" is flawed, and seems to be intent on making me feel just as cruddy about myself as he feels about himself. 

[waverider]

At the end of the day he is just projecting responsibility. As responsibility for thinks being right doesn't sit right being on his plate.

The underlying reason is one thing, passing the buck is another typical BPD behaviour. It is important note to get distracted by the second issue.

[Hmcbart]

I can understand your pain.  I have heard so many times that I only want my wife for sex or I only ask her out when I want sex or bring home flowers when I want sex or even cleaning the house because I want sex.  She says that is all I think she is good for. 

Like many have said before; logic doesn't apply.  I have gotten upset and told her "if all I wanted you for was sex, I would have left 15 years ago when it went from monthly to quarterly!"   

If I asked her to dinner it's because I want to spend time away from the kids with her.  If I buy her flowers it's because I want to see her smile.  If I clean the house, it's because she has been laying around all day doing nothing and the house is a wreck... .but that's a whole other issue.
I had a date with my wife in December. It was the first time she said yes yo my request for a date in years.  Yes we had sex afterwards but that wasn't why I wanted to go out to dinner. 

When it comes to sex in general, I have been turned down so many times and so many different ways that's it's not funny.  It's humialting to know that my wife of 20 years won't have sex with me and comes up with every excuse in the book to get out of it.  Getting turned down for a date is actually even worse. I stopped asking. 

Sometimes my own mouth comes back to bite me.  I told her once, "I have a 50:50 chance of going out alone and meeting a complete stranger and ending up having sex with her.  I have a 99.9:0.1 chance that you will say yes". It didn't go over very well but really when I'm going to get shot down anyway, it doesn't affect my odds even a little. 

[Wrongturn1]

"I have a 50:50 chance of going out alone and meeting a complete stranger and ending up having sex with her.  I have a 99.9:0.1 chance that you will say yes". It didn't go over very well but really when I'm going to get shot down anyway, it doesn't affect my odds even a little. 

Kudos to you for keeping some semblance of a sense of humor about things.  I find your statement hilarious, but I'll bet it went over with your wife like a lead balloon!