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Author Topic: Manipulating Any Which Way  (Read 470 times)
WitzEndWife
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« on: January 26, 2017, 09:02:04 AM »

Ugh. This is challenging. My BPD husband fixates on something he wants and tries to manipulate me every which way until I agree to it.

First, when we were living in another city, he begged and begged me to move back to my hometown, to live with my parents and save up for a house. I wasn't sure that I wanted to move at first. However, I was laid off and had trouble finding something right away locally, so I applied to and got a great job back in my hometown, and we moved, and moved in with my parents.

Immediately after moving in with my parents, H found that it was triggering to live with them (he'd been rejected and sent to a horrible foster home by his mother and stepfather when he was 14). At first, he imagined wild stories justifying that my parents didn't like him and rejected him, such as that they bought a house with white carpet because they didn't want us staying in the home with our dog (who sometimes has accidents in the house), or that they stocked the freezer with meat, knowing he was vegan. He did everything in his power to paint them as villains in his story, and to justify his belief that they didn't want him there, despite the reality, which was that they were bending over backward and confused by his anti-social and downright mean behavior toward them. Horrible family fights broke out at first.

After he realized that fighting and aggression wasn't going to work, he started lying in bed for days on end, refusing to shower, eat or drink. The "mean" people were "judging" him for being a "loser", so he couldn't face them. When he would open up, he said that he just couldn't take being in a place where he wasn't wanted, and he wanted to move to a house sooner, rather than later. I didn't play into that behavior, and neither, thankfully, did my parents. We treated him with love and kindness when he did choose to show his face and eat with us. So, he gave that up, and started being more productive himself, looking for work, and being generally more pleasant to be around.

Until last night, when he was acting all sad-sack-y again. I asked him what was wrong, and, after saying "nothing" several times, he finally said that he felt useless and worthless. I told him that I was sorry that he felt that way, but that I didn't see him as useless or worthless. Later that night, he said that he felt like my parents were doing everything for me, and, again, that he felt useless. In my mind, I thought, "Here we go, yet another blame scenario." Now my parents were usurping him, making him invalid. I asked him what would make him feel better. He said that he wanted me to go look at a house he found online. Of course, I thought. Yet another manipulation to try to get him out of his discomfort. It's actually brilliant the different ways that he comes at this. If only he could use that brilliance for something constructive!

Anyway, do other people here deal with that kind of master manipulation? What helps you manage it?
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isilme
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« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2017, 09:53:37 AM »

I don't think my H is so much about manipulation like that, and I'm not sure I'd put what your H is doing into that heading, after living with my VERY manipulative BPD mother.  She'd get herself arrested for shop-lifting, evicted, and fired (once all in the same month) repeatedly, trying to get me to give up my adult life I'd built to come take care of her again like when I was a parentified child. 

But I also don't try to read H's desires as much - I am working on getting him to use actual words to politely ask me for what he wants, whether it's to move aside in the kitchen (he just stands there awkwardly, waiting for me to read his mind, and gets upset if I move the wrong way.  As the one doing the majority of the cooking and all the cleaning, I get frustrated because I am usually in the middle of about 3 things when this happens).  I tell him I need him to TELL me what he needs so I can move, to use WORDS, and he's like "I shouldn't have to ask permission to get XZY," or "I shouldn't have to be rude to get a fork."  And I have to explain it's not asking permission to let me know politely he needs something, that there are nice ways to say, please step tp the right so I can get a fork.

Did your H work or have out-of-the-house obligations (school?) before your move?  Or some sort of externally imposed structure to his day?  H used to not work and had dropped out of school, and that was a terrible time, as he resented MY schedule.  He felt that me needing to sleep to go to work was invalidating him, and telling him he was a bum by comparison.  And in his mind, if I was "going to call him a bum" (simply by needing to go to be before 2AM to be up by 7AM!) he'd be a bum, so there.  It took a progression of a part time job getting him working, getting him a routine, getting him outside int he day time (good for depression), forcing him to be a little active (also good for depression), and a decent paycheck for the few hours it gave him, which gave him a sense of pride.  This, in turn stopped SOME of the more morose episodes, and encouraged him to try again when a full-time job opened up in our tiny town, which overall was a good move for him and for us.

I think if you can find something, your H would benefit more from a day-time task than simply moving.  Even if it's not something that actually pays, but just gives him some outside interaction with people, a reason to get up, a reason to get dressed/shave, whatever - it is all baby steps to getting him out of this funk which is affecting not just him, not just you, but your parents as well.  Volunteering at an animal shelter, go walk to dogs, maybe.  They always need help.  Homeless shelters, soup kitchen, day cares, there are places that need help, and if he's not employed, he might get a spark of self-esteem from helping, which in turn may make him a little less likely to believe he is judged, and your parents and you can both give him validation for his efforts. 

Honestly, I'd not want to live with my in-laws for a long period of time in their home, either.  I love them, but a lot of H's issues stem from them, or at least from his perceptions of them.  And they have different household priorities (his mom's sadly a hoarder of things and tries to hoard animals).  Luckily, H can't be around them very long at a time.  It's your aprents, so you amy feel a bit more comfortable in the arrangement, but having your own place is not a bad thing to want - it just sounds unrealitic at this time for you with how things stand, and won't "fix" your H's probelms, other than to remove your parents from the day to day equation.  Even if you move, he will still feel they judge him. 
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WitzEndWife
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« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2017, 10:59:25 AM »

He is driving Uber at least a few days a week (he had a cold during part of this week, which I think triggered his depression). I'm definitely not going to leave just because he wants me to, I will leave when we have paid down some debt and are able to afford the house we want. I think at least having a part-time job does help his mood. He does have that "bum" syndrome though, where he gets angry at me for being successful in my career and making the majority of the money, even though he knows it's not my fault that he never finished college or started a career.
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isilme
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« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2017, 01:20:46 PM »

Excerpt
even though he knows it's not my fault that he never finished college or started a career.

Bingo.  Somewhere he knows it's his fault, but not being able to process that is a hallmark of BPD.  It CAN'T be his fault, it has to be someone else's.  He can't help but see you carrying him, and while a part of him tries to justify it, another hates it and knows somewhere inside he is the only one who can change it.  But the BPD fights that assessment, and so you get stuck with a moody, depressed person ready to lash out.

I know it's frustrating, but I really think only time will help with this one.  Like you said, you need time to even prepare to move and do it right, and have other concerns to address first.   
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WitzEndWife
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« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2017, 06:21:33 PM »

Yep, time will tell. I'm sincerely hoping to build a better relationship with him, one where he will trust me enough and not feel invalidated. That is going to be my last-ditch effort. I don't want to spin my wheels forever, and if he is resistant and difficult, despite everything I do, then I will have to decide at what point I need to stop spinning my wheels. I do think he is doing okay lately, since I have really been making an effort not to escalate things, or ask him about what he's doing with work/career/etc. We'll see.
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« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2017, 07:59:32 AM »

I understand your frustration. I can relate to dealing with the ups and downs of a H wBPD. I applaud you for making an effort to try not to be invalidating.

My H does the same. When we met all he talked about was how all these ppl did him wrong. How no one accepted him. He comes up with so many reasons why he can't do this or that. Not taking accountability of the fact that he caused his own hardship.

The hardest part for me is learning not to be invalidating and not look for him to be the leader of our family. It's just as hard to be supportive when you know what is coming next. Especially, when you find yourself feeling like that person blames you and doesn't trust you.

Seems like you listened and decided to move with your parents at his request. Once you did, he found some reason why that doesn't work out. Yep, same cycle we go thru. My H has a new "idea" every other week. If I don't jump in right away, he blames me why it doesn't take shape or that I just don't support him. So he stops trying to involve me going against all the things we actually need to be doing.

As the mate of a pwBPD, I guess all you can do is make sure you take care of what benefits your lively hood. I think you are doing the best you can do by staying there and saving for your own home. We can't control what the other may do or think. You can only take care of you which truthfully is taking care of you both. Rather he will act on it or not.
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WitzEndWife
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« Reply #6 on: February 01, 2017, 01:57:18 PM »

Update: He's quietly decided to just avoid my parents at all costs. His inner narrative is that they are judging him, and that they hate him because he doesn't have a full-time job and isn't getting on with his career (read: he is angry with and hates himself because he isn't doing those things, but, of course, it's my parents who are the bad guys here).

A couple of days ago, my father asked me if we could please move to the downstairs bedroom for a few weeks when his brother, who is in his 80s, comes to visit in March. Originally, my parents had prepared the downstairs bedroom for us to live in, but my H cited that action by them as yet another way to "prove" that my parents didn't want him there (because giving us the large, finished basement with a huge bed, instead of the tiny, upstairs bedroom is apparently inhospitable), so we are sleeping in the tiny upstairs bedroom, and I keep all of my clothing downstairs because there isn't enough room in the small closet for all of our clothing. I'm having a lot of anxiety about telling him about this request, because I fear the angry backlash, and I am worried that it will spur yet another round of him insisting that we find a house. I don't know what to do.
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« Reply #7 on: February 01, 2017, 04:29:17 PM »

Excerpt
I am worried that it will spur yet another round of him insisting that we find a house. I don't know what to do.

Well, I'd have to tell him (after a lot of psyching myself and prepping, and maybe even talking alone out loud first) what needs to happen because you are guests in their home, and even if he complains about wanting a house, you can't get one yet.  He's welcome to look for a house, but until the debt is taken care of and the proper house is there and you can afford it, only then can you move.  He's welcome to speed up the process by looking for a full time higher paying job, but until that happens, you're on the road you're on and while you understand he is not comfortable as things are, nothing can be done right now, or in the near future unless he is able to make a change in the cash flow.  YOU are already doing all you can.  You can't stop reality from butting into his world, and so if your parents need their other guest room ready for your brother, then they need it, it's their house they got jobs and paid for, and if he wants the same, he will need to do the same thing. 

(Sorry, some of this is my own frustration with H - he always asks how our savings are doing, and even though he KNOWS we had to spend some on repairs and long awaited home impreovements AND proerty tax recently, he alway gets mopey and is like, we never have money saved.  We DID.  We had to spend some of it, and in a few months, we will be back up, but time is a factor in saving.)
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isilme
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« Reply #8 on: February 01, 2017, 04:30:59 PM »

He's not going to like it, but we can't insulate our pwBPD from everything.  Just be prepared to need a break after words, and pick a time of day when he's usually calmest.  Let him spew out some of his feelings - they don't have to be YOUR feelings.  If you don't JADE, he will probably calm down after a while, maybe turn on some silent treatment, and you can move all your stuff from upstairs downstairs.  The good thing is you will now be in a bigger space. 
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WitzEndWife
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« Reply #9 on: February 01, 2017, 06:11:14 PM »

He's not going to like it, but we can't insulate our pwBPD from everything.  Just be prepared to need a break after words, and pick a time of day when he's usually calmest.  Let him spew out some of his feelings - they don't have to be YOUR feelings.  If you don't JADE, he will probably calm down after a while, maybe turn on some silent treatment, and you can move all your stuff from upstairs downstairs.  The good thing is you will now be in a bigger space. 

Yes, that's true, I can't insulate him from everything. I think if I practice and prepare myself for his possible reaction, it'll be what it will be. My other concern is that he might blatantly refuse to move, and spur a HUGE conflict by digging in his heels. That prospect causes me the most anxiety because he might make it a big, dramatic, "Either they want me here and want me to choose a room *I* want to be in, or they don't, and, therefore, I'm out of here!" Sigh. I just don't want to deal with that kind of drama right now. I have a month, so I'm trying to see if we can get into a happy, calm mode (he's been really edgy and angry lately), and then I can break it to him when he feels secure.
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« Reply #10 on: February 02, 2017, 10:05:47 AM »

Hello WitzEndWife,

 I've read through your posts and well the reality from your writing is that you are walking on eggshells with this guy. You know that he will explode into a borderline rage with the issue you currently face and you are compromising your own self-respect by always working around him and ignoring what should be making you happy in life.

Look at it this way, in a normal relationship between 2 healthy people this current issue you have would not be an issue at all. But with a BPD person you have to plan, execute and then wait for the obvious reaction that will follow. Is this want you want all your life? If it is then expect to have to have coping mechanisms for the rest of your life because his behaviour is NOT going to change without serious professional help and even then no guaranteed.

Probably the earlier you tell him the better, leaving it late will make the situation worse. You owe yourself the right to be happy.
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WitzEndWife
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« Reply #11 on: February 03, 2017, 12:00:19 PM »

He's taken to avoiding my parents, staying locked up in his room or in the bathroom. It makes them feel rejected and unhappy. My mother has gone so far as to suggest us setting a timeline to move out. She is aware that he is doing this on purpose to get me to move, but she also is feeling depressed over it, and it's not healthy for her.

I really don't want to deal with this long term. I want to buy a house and I don't want to be obligated to give it to him if we split. Something has to happen to change soon. If he doesn't get help or get a full-time job, I can't see this continuing.
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« Reply #12 on: February 03, 2017, 07:05:35 PM »

I want to buy a house and I don't want to be obligated to give it to him if we split.

Hmmmm... .that sounds unlikely to work well. Buying a house when you are married means it will be very hard to keep it all if you split up.

Further, I think that buying a house together isn't going to solve his mental health issues; he may be HOPING that it will change everything for him, but do you believe it?

Q: How do you feel about living with your parents, just yourself? Would it work better if he got a small apartment so he didn't have to live with them?
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WitzEndWife
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« Reply #13 on: February 06, 2017, 02:38:29 PM »

The problem is that he cannot currently support himself. The only way he'd be able to live away from me is if he moved back in with his mother, and he cannot leave the country right now to live with her. I have even offered to get him a cheap apartment, but he has refused.
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"Life is a succession of lessons which must be lived to be understood. All is riddle, and the key to a riddle is another riddle." - Ralph Waldo Emerson
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« Reply #14 on: February 06, 2017, 05:19:32 PM »

Also, just a thought. Is it possible that living with your parents is triggering feelings of abandonment in him? There's often a thought in the mind of a pwBPD that love comes in limited amounts. When you're in a close relationship with your parents, there's a fear that there won't be enough love left for him. The natural reaction for a pwBPD is to see your parents as the the enemy that is going to take away the love he NEEDS from you. So, he'll blacklist them and try to get you away from them so that he can have all your love to himself.
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WitzEndWife
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« Reply #15 on: February 07, 2017, 11:03:43 AM »

Also, just a thought. Is it possible that living with your parents is triggering feelings of abandonment in him? There's often a thought in the mind of a pwBPD that love comes in limited amounts. When you're in a close relationship with your parents, there's a fear that there won't be enough love left for him. The natural reaction for a pwBPD is to see your parents as the the enemy that is going to take away the love he NEEDS from you. So, he'll blacklist them and try to get you away from them so that he can have all your love to himself.

You know, I never even considered this. I always thought living with them was triggering the trauma he had as a kid being abandoned by his own parents, fearing that they didn't want him, but I think your perspective makes a lot of sense as well. He gets noticeably upset when I'm enjoying time with them and not paying exclusive attention to him. Very interesting.
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« Reply #16 on: February 07, 2017, 12:45:59 PM »

It's definitely possible. We don't live with my parents, but I will tell you that the two times we've visited them since I've been married have both turned into the most explosive incidents we've had in our marriage. He starts off fine for the first few days, interacting with my parents and family, then he isolates by staying upstairs in the bedroom all day and only coming down for dinner. Both times the visits have ended in complete meltdown because he informs me that we will be leaving today (a few days prior to our scheduled departure) and I refuse (I only see my family 1-2 times a year and it's a 10 hour drive).

Also, when they have come to visit me, we've also had meltdowns. He'll refuse to allow them into our home, threaten to leave me, you name it for some perceived disrespectful action on the part of my parents (in one case because my father wore his shoes on the carpet). It's extremely stressful explaining to your parents that "we'll have to hang out in your hotel room" without going into all the details of what is really going on.

Now that I've been learning more about BPD this makes so much more sense to me. I used to think it was just anxiety and that he was uncomfortable being in an unfamiliar environment, or having others in his space. Add this to the other isolating behaviors (not wanting me to spend time with friends etc.) and it becomes more apparent that it is about a fear of abandonment by me. That maybe there won't be enough of me to go around and he'll be left alone.

I haven't found a way to address it yet Smiling (click to insert in post) still working on that part. But I'm starting with validation and defining my limits.
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WitzEndWife
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« Reply #17 on: February 07, 2017, 01:41:56 PM »


I haven't found a way to address it yet Smiling (click to insert in post) still working on that part. But I'm starting with validation and defining my limits.
Wow, that sounds SO much like my situation! Is your H in therapy currently? Mine refuses to go alone, although he is open to couples therapy, which has been totally ineffective, as he spends the entire time blaming me and talking about himself.

Please keep me posted on how the validation works out for you. I am really trying to do that, but, because of our current situation, my H is in a very volatile, angry phase right now, and can be emotionally abusive (gaslighting, manipulation, and verbal abuse). I'm trying not to react in anger and to listen to him, but it is difficult at times.
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« Reply #18 on: February 08, 2017, 03:48:45 PM »

H refuses to go to therapy as well. At one point I almost had him talked into couples therapy. However, the reason I was pushing for that is because I had seen the therapist myself alone. The therapist is pretty sure we're dealing with BPD, and would move the couples therapy towards individual therapy with some couples stuff as well. It would have been a way of getting him in the door.

Is your current therapist on board with BPD? Does he/she work with clients that have BPD and had success with treatment? If not, is there a possibility you could find a therapist that does, see him for couples therapy, and then gradually move it into some individual sessions?

Also, even just therapy yourself would be a good option. Learning how to work through the emotional abuse for yourself, working through your values and where your limits should be and applying.

One thing that really jumped out at me while reading a book on BPD yesterday "The longer you wait to set limits and allow the behavior to continue, the harder it will be to do." That in itself is spurring me to start defining one limit at a time and applying it. I will say that is something that is really important in situations where you're being bombarded by abusive behavior. There are times when it's not healthy to sit there and be abused for the sake of listening and validating. My limit is that I will validate what I'm hearing once or twice if I can pick apart the real feelings behind the nasty words. If the abusive words continues and the validation hasn't helped to diffuse the situation, I'll say "I really want to understand what you have to say, but not while you're criticizing and blaming me. I am willing to be supportive if you can calmly tell me what is is that you want or need. If you can't right now, then we can talk about it x hours from now when things have calmed down." And then I remove myself from the room. This is valuing YOU. It's saying I love you and want to problem solve with you, but I also love myself too much to be disrespected and hurt in this way. Another thing I read - would you allow a stranger in the grocery store to say these things to you? Then you probably should't allow it here either Smiling (click to insert in post) I'm really working on this! But I'm seeing some subtle improvements!
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