The Concept of Commitment

[Lucky Jim]

Friends, After a 16-year marriage to a pwBPD, I struggle with the concept of commitment.  What does it mean to you?  I took my marriage vows seriously and committed myself wholeheartedly to my BPDxW and our marriage, yet obviously took the concept too far because I nearly destroyed myself in the process.   Who knew about BPD?  I certainly hadn't.  I guess what I'm asking is, where does one draw the line?  When does commitment become something else, that is more like lunacy?  As an abstract concept, commitment seems noble, like loyalty.  Yet when one finds oneself loyal to a persecutor, something is wrong.  I guess it's a judgment call at some point.  Maybe the bottom line is a gut feeling arising out of one's core values?  It's hard to put in words.

Thanks to all,
LuckyJim

[Ragnar1982]

Hey Jim.

That's a great question, and one I've struggled with when thinking of my ex. I feel that her idea of commitment is knowing someone will be there no matter what, regardless of breaking what I feel as commitment, like using me to have an affair, or cheating. She always talks about unconditional love, but I think that's a cop out for "you better love me no matter what I do". Funny thing is, I still do. Which is why I enjoyed your comment about being loyal to your persecutor.

[Jox]

Hi Jim,


Yes, who new about BPD? Totally true, I had no idea, until reading here and elsewhere.

Yet along the way I was given a book on codependency. It blew me away, and I had a strong crisis if identity, or however that may be called by reflecting myself and identifying with all said.

The bounderies is also useful term, but if looked from codependency angle is just a symptom that weak bounderies are the core of us not trusting and caring about ourselves.

Saying NO, letting the other person to take care of themselves in all aspects and so much more fits in strong bounderies.

Adult commitment is not taking care of somebody, who is mentally a child or at least in some situations.

Best Jox

[teapay]

Lucky, conditional commitments, even quid pro quo commitments are okay, if that is all someone is comfortable with doing.  Commitment can deepen overtime if person and  r/s justify it.  I'm somewhat skeptical of unconditional commitment   as a good thing for any of the parties involved.

[earlyL]

This is a really interesting question, I think my idea of commitment is like yours LuckyJim, I believe so passionately in loyalty although I know this stems from a dysfunctional family growing up. Is commitment also an understanding of the other person in the relationship and being able to work together on building that relationship. This is very much where I am at at the moment though, coming out of a BPD relationship. I find though through this break up even with friends I feel some kind of commitment to me from that type of relationship and it was not something I had ever really thought of before. It makes me want to commit more to those friendships in the future - whatever that might mean.

Jox - your comments are so true, and something I wish 6 weeks ago I had had the strength to recognise, but I will certainly in the future.

'When one finds oneself loyal to a persecutor' - I've thought about this a lot, my gut told me 9 months ago that something wasn't right, and my partner has recently cheated on me just before xmas. She tells me that she felt something had changed in our relationship - I wonder if that change was me questioning my commitment to someone that I knew wasn't committing the same way I wanted.

Really good thoughts, and helpful today for me - am packing up her stuff in my flat.

Thank you

LW

[Lucky Jim]

Ragnar: I agree.  To the extent "unconditional love" refers to a boundary-less relationship, it is a license for abuse.

Jox: Agree.  Commitment, in my view, doesn't involve caretaking, which I consider unhealthy for both care giver and care recipient.

teapay:  Like you, I'm skeptical of unconditional commitment, for the reason I stated above.

Louise: Sorry to hear that you are going through a b/u.  Right, one's concept of commitment, at least at the outset, seems to stem from one's FOO, though I like to think that my ideas on the concept have changed in the aftermath of marriage to a pwBPD.

Thanks to all,
LJ

[infjEpic]

Friends, After a 16-year marriage to a pwBPD, I struggle with the concept of commitment.  What does it mean to you?  I took my marriage vows seriously and committed myself wholeheartedly to my BPDxW and our marriage, yet obviously took the concept too far because I nearly destroyed myself in the process.   Who knew about BPD?  I certainly hadn't. 

Hmmm... how long is it since you separated? How long have you been recovering?
When did you find out about BPD?

For me, post-BPD experience, post-recovery - I'm much more firm in what I will and will not tolerate.

Agreeing to stand by somebody in sickness and in health, means sickness which may befall you.
It doesn't mean they have a license to abuse you. Ever.

If you are suffering because of their wilful actions - then that's a dealbreaker - regardless of whether it's caused by a disorder or addiction.

I guess what I'm asking is, where does one draw the line? 

I assume you must have a scenario in mind, or an experience, where you are unsure... .do you want to go through it?

When does commitment become something else, that is more like lunacy?  As an abstract concept, commitment seems noble, like loyalty.  Yet when one finds oneself loyal to a persecutor, something is wrong.  I guess it's a judgment call at some point. [/b] Maybe the bottom line is a gut feeling arising out of one's core values?  It's hard to put in words.

Loyalty is a 2 way street.
If you are loyal to me, and I take advantage of you - then I'm disloyal. Then you are no longer loyal either - you are deceived.

There's a lot of varying theories about the Nons in BPD relationships - especially that the nons all have something wrong with them.
They're deficient in some manner.

I disagree with this theory because it doesn't take deception and manipulation into account.
A lot of people, once they become wise to the cheating, betrayal and deception - break the cycle.

I dwelled on a lot of these questions post break up. I rely on concrete foundations, but everything became fluid and unstable and BPD like.
I don't think there is anything wrong with asking oneself these questions, it's actually quite good.
But only as long as you don't go thinking that you are broken or deficient somehow.

The trait which you displayed - is one which would be among the most highly prized in a healthy relationship.
You just had the misfortune to become involved with someone who was incapable of understanding it, much less appreciating it.

[Lucky Jim]

The trait which you displayed - is one which would be among the most highly prized in a healthy relationship.
You just had the misfortune to become involved with someone who was incapable of understanding it, much less appreciating it.

Agree with and appreciate that, infjEpic.  No, I don't consider myself broken or deficient; if anything, I think I'm stronger now because I was forced to grow in order to emerge, like Theseus, from the Cave of the BPD Minotaur!

LuckyJim

[gameover]

My take: Your first commitment is to yourself--your happiness, your well being, your path in life. All other commitments are second to that & contingent on that first commitment remaining intact.

Anyone who shames you for that is out to manipulate you. The people who encourage & support your commitment to yourself are those worth committing to.

Your concept of commitment seems honorable--but who is it really benefitting?  From codependency, a healthy sense of self-interest seems warped, disgusting, selfish; but once you step outside that paradigm, you realize that nothing's more warped or disgusting than not valuing yourself. Pat yourself on the back--you did the best you could by a flawed paradigm, which indicates all sorts of admirable qualities that will serve you well in the new paradigm--but you have to detach your ego from the old paradigm.

[enlighten me]

where it becomes unhealthy  I believe is down to what drives it. In the beginning I was committed in the healthy way. The problem for me as I see it is that in the beginning she told me of her bad relationships and how her exs had behaved which made them bad people or unworthy. At some point the healthy commitment changed to a commitment where I avoided being her exs. I was trying to avoid any guilt associated with being a bad boyfriend. I remained committed out of guilt.

[Lucky Jim]

gameover: Totally agree, though it took me a long time and a lot of suffering to grasp.  I've deleted the old paradigm and chalked it up to operating under a flawed model!

enlighten me: Agree.  That's exactly what happened: commitment based on manipulation, which is when it became unhealthy for me.

LJ

[enlighten me]

gameover: Totally agree, though it took me a long time and a lot of suffering to grasp.  I've deleted the old paradigm and chalked it up to operating under a flawed model!

enlighten me: Agree.  That's exactly what happened: commitment based on manipulation, which is when it became unhealthy for me.

LJ

There was certainly some manipulation involved but I think the biggest factor was me and not her manipulating me. The stuff about her exs was early on in the relationship and pwBPD don't plan that far ahead so I don't see it as manipulation. To plan that far ahead your talking more ASPD than BPD.

[Ragnar1982]

I was triangulated with her live in "ex" from the very beginning. I prided myself on not being like him, being there for her, showing her I'm a better man, etc. I was rewarded for this through countless comparisons of how much better I was. This slowly turned into comparisons of how ALIKE I am to him. This led me to try even harder to show her, but when I'd slip up, I'd be reminded of this extensively. This triangulation not only occurred through comparisons to him, but also when we would break up or have a disagreement. There were always other people who had opinions about our relationship, people I'd never even met, too. Long story short, I think this was manipulative to make me strive harder to prove my commitment when I was already committed either way.

[lovenature]

I believe commitment is required by BOTH partners for a relationship to work, the healthiest is when BOTH partners put the others heart and feelings first while still respecting themselves. Commitment needs to make sense in reality; love shouldn't hurt.

[blueblue12]

That's exactly what my therapist told me the first time I met him. "Love is pure, is not about pain, you are in an addictive relationship, it's torture, love is not like that." I was totally committed till the end, that is how I went into the relationship which became a marriage for ten years. I had no idea about BPD until a few months ago, again as my therapist worked it out. He basically said "from what you are describing you are in a relationship with a borderline." I had no idea what that meant. I just put up with someone who was at first ultra loving, then abusive and cold. But I kept thinking I need to fix it because as she used to tell me "it's all your fault you are controlling and jealous, you need help." Sure I did and I search to fix those areas, but now that I see it from afar I can understand that I was basically set up to fail all along the way. One thing I don't get is how did our marriage last that long, ten year relationship, all her previous were 4 months, 6 months, a few weeks, a marriage for 1 year, etc, a mess... .I should have worked it out from that! Plus her terrible childhood. But all along I guess in my mind I was the saviour and had to help her... .now I feel so stupid about all that, I was used... .

[Lucky Jim]

lovenature: Agree, I was miserable in my 16-year marriage to a pwBPD.  Due to her disorder, my BPDxW had no consideration for my heart and feelings.  I finally came around to the view that my loyalty was misplaced with someone who made me the object of her abuse.

Raul: Most BPD relationships, in my view, are not built to last.  The drama and turmoil take a toll on the Non. You are not alone, believe me.

LJ

[heartandwhole]

Great question and thread Lucky Jim 

I wonder if commitment is something we do every day? Make the decision to (re)commit to ourselves, our partners, the relationship? That way, it feels self-empowering and like there are more options, because situations and people do change. When we first commit, we are committing to what we perceive the person and situation to be, but when we have more information, we can revisit our original intentions and choices—they might be stronger than ever!

heartandwhole

[Lucky Jim]

I like your approach, h&w, because it introduces an element of flexibility into the concept, rather than all or nothing 'till death do us part.  Right, when we have more information, it makes sense to revisit our original goals and intentions.  As you note, our initial commitment is usually based more on what we perceive our SO to be, rather than what that person is really like.  Little did I know what I was getting into by marrying a pwBPD.  Who knew?  I had never heard about BPD.  At some point, I suspect my commitment crossed a line into something harmful and self-destructive, when I felt trapped yet unable to leave an abusive spouse.

LJ

[apollotech]

Great question and thread Lucky Jim 

I wonder if commitment is something we do every day? Make the decision to (re)commit to ourselves, our partners, the relationship? That way, it feels self-empowering and like there are more options, because situations and people do change. When we first commit, we are committing to what we perceive the person and situation to be, but when we have more information, we can revisit our original intentions and choices—they might be stronger than ever!

heartandwhole

Hi LJ,

I agree with what H&W wrote ^^^^. The initial commitment is to enter the engagement (of whatever it may be), but you have to keep an eye on the resource sink (whatever that/those resource(s) may be) and make decisions accordingly. I think you are right LJ about us being socialized with the nobel definition/expectation of commitment (Do not be a quitter; Always strive to be in first place; No pain, no gain; Win at all costs; etc.) which, as you personally experienced, is a very dangerous/unhealthy position to take.

[lovenature]

Change happens in life, whether it is a partner who becomes a different person, a machine that wears out, a flower that dies etc.
We must decide what changes are acceptable to us and what are not; self respect is a key guide.

[Reforming]

Hi all,

Good thread with lots of very good insights.

My relationship helped me to rethink some of my underlying assumptions about romantic relationships;

Personal Choice and Responsibility

Whatever the circumstances of your relationship, marriage and children, long term cohabitation etc everyone has the right to choose to stay or leave at any point. As H&W says recognising that each partner always has this fundamental freedom of choice is very healthy way to frame your relationship.

I was with my ex for almost 16 years. I had the freedom to walk away and so did she. I chose to stay.

It's very easy to hide from painful choices by focussing on the behaviour and needs of others but nobody can force you to do anything except yourself. I know that children, shared financial commitments etc add huge complexity to our choices but we always have the power to choose to stay or leave.

Driving Your Own Destiny

Quite early in my relationship my focus shifted onto my ex - to her life and her problems. While she initially encouraged / even sought to be rescued, I chose to respond.

Initially there was a pay off and she rewarded me with idealisation etc. But there was also emotional trauma, turbulence and push pull and I gradually lost my sense of purpose and my self belief. We became co-dependent  and I became more and more drained, unfocussed and unsure of myself. By the time the relationship finally finished I was burnt out, angry, resentful and struggling to move forward in my own life. She quickly replaced me and moved on.

It was a painful lesson but it taught me that what I believed was unconditional love and loyalty was unhealthy and destructive.

Our primary responsibility is to ourself. I'm not suggesting that this gives us a license to exploit or injure others but when we rationalise self destructive choices by prioritising the needs of another we are failing to love ourselves.

And when don't love or value yourself others will follow your example.

Thanks for sharing

Reforming

[blueblue12]

Reforming you are so right! Thanks for posting. The trouble as you well know having gone right through it is that when we are in the middle of it all we are the enablers, the supporters, the fixers, the everything! And I had a child (from a previous marriage) and my ex, and I was just engulfed in every day problems that I had to also fix in my full time work and career and I was looking after my two favourite people in the world at home as best as I could. My therapist asked me recently "and who was looking after you?" Well no one at the end, but I felt that that was my role in life, to make everyone happy and safe, was I happy? Not really but I would put that in the back burner. Even when my ex decided that she "was done" I still tried as we lived under the same roof for a whole year to fix things! At the end I was exhausted, it was torture as she became cold and completely detached. My therapist used to say "you will be on your own in the near future and you will be relieved" and you know he was right. I miss my ex enormously, but I know that it's over and now I need to learn to look after myself and to put myself in a safe place at all times.

[glaciercats]

I'm so exhausted from everything she has put me through. She runs around finding new replacements. Then has the nerve to tell me no matter what I should never give up. I mean seriously I'm suppose to keep kissing your but while you are out with someone else? That is proving love? It's such a joke and I wish I could heal from her. She has destroyed the person I once was over 4 years of torture. She has absolutely no sense of loyalty. I'm left here in a million pieces while her and the new flame are out living it up. I know it's only temporary but it still makes me so angry.

[blueblue12]

Hey glaciercats, are you on NC with your ex? Is she in touch often? My ex tried a few texts an and urgent plea email "don't say goodbye I can't cope" style, got her mum to call me, etc... .that's after she wanted to separate and sell the house which we did! I never responded and she went quiet, now I get a few messages of 'tasks for me' via my son, but I am really not interested. I am also dreading bumping into her somewhere as her charm and pity will probably try to induce in some role in her life, but for what really? As much as I would like it all to be great again, there were so many bad things that went down in her cruel and detached treatment of me at the end that I can't do that to myself again.

[glaciercats]

Hey raul... I was nc for a while. But then after constant messages I went against better judgement an got sucked back in. This time tho it has been complete hell. She has made me out to be such a monster because I now call her out on her bs and she can't charm me like before. So she has found a new replacement and left me once again picking up the pieces. This time it has done more damage to me than any of the previous times. And it angers me to know this replacement is getting all the good stuff right now. Even though I know it's only short lived. I swear my mind is completely gone now. I am seeing a therapist today to try and sort this out... good luck on your nc. Stay strong my friend!

[SuperJew82]

Good luck with your therapist Glaciercats. I've been seeing my therapist to help fortify my wall as I know my ex will come back full force after she breaks her next victim. Ask your therapist to role play BPD charm/charm tactics... .I was surprised about how poorly I handled them and he sank my battleship!

[glaciercats]

Thank you super.  I will definitely try that.  They always do come back when they aren't getting the attention that they need.  They know how to sucker us back in but this time I'm trying not to be charmed by words, because the actions never follow.  And I can not take another lie.  I don't believe anything that she says anymore.

I think my replacement right now is really focusing hard on her and it has her completely hooked for a while.  But nothing that is lasting can start at such a high and be able to stay up there.  It is all just smoke and mirrors and eventually the replacement will run out of money and wear down emotional and physically.

She isn't even working or trying to find a job right now.  How can you live like that knowing you are going to have to focus on a stranger you have only known a few weeks to take complete care of you.  I would never want to be in a position like that.  Its all so frustrating and mind boggling ugh.

Stay strong and don't get sunk again.

[bus boy]

I knew nothing of personality disorders. I was verbally abused in the home by my father so with Xw I figured I deserved it. I was sick, she is sick. In a normal r/s you mess up, your partner is ticked off but life goes on. In an abusive BPD/NPD r/s they don't get ticked off, they make you feel lower than a snakes belly. They take sinister pleasure in making you feel so horrible. I feel they are passing on to us how they feel inside. They are commited to creating turmoil and passing on there venom.

[Lucky Jim]

bus boy: Agree that a transference takes place.  If the pwBPD can foist the guilt, blame, etc. on the Non, then it is off his/her plate.  Concerning the venom, I have learned that poison is harmless if you don't ingest it!

LuckyJim

[Grey Kitty]

For me commitment is about choice, not about obedience.

When I commit to somebody, I am committing my respect, my caring, my loyalty, etc. And I'm committing to provide it in the way that I choose to, based on my own values.

I'm not committing to obey what they say, regardless of consequences.

I realized how to make this work for myself, several years back when my marriage was abusive, and I realized that I loved my wife, and always would. And also that I was letting myself get harmed, and that I didn't owe her that. Even realized that I might have to leave her to protect myself, as I was self-destructing.

It turned out I didn't have to leave at that time, as I did better at protecting myself (Yup, learned a few lessons well here!).