Is this a form of manipulation? Or is he just being difficult?

[Shawna76]

Hello everyone.

I think my H with BPD is using these things to punish me.

It's a few things that he has done all at once. First, I should explain that one of his biggest problems with me is the stability I offer is just too much. I prefer living in a home where my children are in good schools and are safe. That means living in better school district which depend son having a steady income to keep up with normal household bills. This is the is having a hard time with actually maintaining those things. He doesn't want to hold down an actual job. He rather make side gigs his main income. gigs such as driving Uber, doing taxes, working a 20 hour a week job. Says I don't "diversify my income as he does." He says I don't  want the pleasures of life by putting my money towards the cost of living in a better area. Becus I would rather have my rent paid and wear a hat than take my money to keep my hair done. Yet he claims I'm "high maintenance" because I prefer to have things like car insurance.  

So with all that, he has done these things.

1) He is renting a large storage unit where he placed all of his things into it. Claimed he moved out. Was sleeping in his car. After a few cold nights comes home every day after work. Yet still telling people that we are separated. Threatens that he wont put his things back into the house until he feels that I won't act out my PTSD on him. (long story) The storage is for if I put him out, he will always have a place to store his stuff. I've never put him out.

2) I asked him if we could trade my van in and co - sign a newer car. this way we can get a better car note. He could then drive the car as his Uber vehicle and I will drive his older truck. (The older truck is in both our names. It only has a few more years before it's too old for Uber. And the transmission is going out. I work from home so I don't drive much at all.) A few days after telling me "no". That all he needs in another 1,100 to get yet another old truck we have fixed, I would drive that truck. Then a few days later, after we had a big fight, and he moved into his car, he went out and got the very same car I wanted. Put it just his name. He placed my name on the insurance as the second driver. But here's the kicker... .He refuses to drive it. He has it parked in his cousin's garage. He won't let me see the car. Says he doesn't want to risk wrecking it or putting mileage on it until he pays it off in 5 yrs.

3)He no longer pays his half of the bills at our house. His half comes to about $775 a month. He feels like he has spent all of his life putting off his dreams to take care of the women in his past. (Dreams that change with the direction of the wind. He has had 7 short termed relationships within 15 years before we got married. Women who lived on the government and was more interested in the lasted fashions and keeping their hair done.) He only wants to focus on investing in his dreams so that one day he will be able to take care of me as a husband should do. He says that he wants to live somewhere where all he has to pay is no more than $700 a month in rent.

All of this just seems so backwards. So confusing. This is not just the behavior of  a typical normal selfish person. But it's like he is punishing me for being the responsible one in the relationship.

Is this the form of manipulation that pwBPD's do? If I'm wrong, let me know?

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[Grey Kitty]

I'm not quite sure what to call this, but I do have a very serious suggestion for you:

You and he have very different ideas on how to handle money.

Having a good paying job, living in a good neighborhood, etc. is valid.

Working for less, and living on less is valid as well.

At best, the two of you have different ideas on how to do your finances, and would be better off not sharing finances if at all possible.

He has a car in his name. I'd suggest that you get one in your name next when you can afford to upgrade.

I'm not sure what to say about the rent. He's not paying his half. He says he's not living there. He's actually there more than that.

It would be more fair for him to pay and to live there... .or to move out and not pay. Which of those do you want?

[isilme]

Manipulation does not seem to be the best descriptor to me - punishing you for the sins of others and for making him "look bad" by being stable when he is not sounds more like it to me, along with teenaged-style rebellion against everything you prioritize because he's poking at you to make you feel like he does.  He feels bad, so he needs to make you feel bad too.  If he can get you to yell at him, he wins, because he can ret-con it to his anger was caused by you yelling (even if it's all backwards). 

The comments about being high maintenance don't seem actaully directed at you so much as at previous romances - yes he wants to hurt you with them,, but they really have little to do with you as his memories of feelings from the past.  H will do this to me, and yell at me for tings his mom or sister, or even past bosses have done, even things done years back before we met or were dating... .I'm not the cause of the anger, just the convenient recipient.  Knowing this ahs helped me not act out on it - it's not really about me, and nothing I say will change his mind at the moment, and not reacting seems to actually make the incident just end sooner.  Then again, my own PTSD from childhood abuse has me emulate Mr. Spock when confronted with high emotions.  I shut them down, they are not safe.  I believe you said you tend to react in other ways. 

When you manipulate someone, you usually want an end result and have some clue what that might be.  Other than wanting you to feel as lost and undirected as he does, your H does not seem to have a "plan".  My mom is manipulative.  Her endgame is to get me to dump my life and move back in as her slave.  She's put herself in many crises to try to accomplish this, and when I helped within what I thought was within reason but did not jump back to being 7 years old, she got pissed.   

H hated it for the years when I was working ad he was just in school, in school working part time, dropped out of school but working part time, and then doing neither.  I was on a set schedule, I had obligations other than him, people could SEE that I was the one working and he was at home all day and often out all night.  And at the time, because he could not / would not deal with his responsibility in it, he started in on me claiming I bad-mouthed him to make him look bad (I did not.  I was silent because I did not want the embarrassment admitting he was pretty much using me at the time, and all of the advice to leave). He needed me to be the source of his shame and bad feelings, and his desires to not be beholden to a grown-up job, and used every BPD method to do so.  And for many years I fell for it, feeling ti was all my fault he felt angry and upset and depressed, and spent a lot of time, energy, and money to try to "fix" things for him, until at one point I just got tired, and numb. When you are numb, insults, rages, and blameshifting don't really hit as hard, so I did not react the same ways which may be part of how things finally took a turn for the better.  Lucky for us, we had seperate bank accounts up till 2 years ago, and so things like getting a car in his name to spite me were not possible.

You both have different ideas of what is desirable in life.  You H is an emotional mess - not trying to be rude, but he is.  The idea of maintaining a traditional job is beyond him, and he'd rather live in his car and have enough to scrape by than face that fear.  H used to be like that, and when he's in a bad place, he goes back to wanting to toss everything we own and buy a camper.  He both ahs mild hoarding tendencies and can't let go of things, and at the same time wants to ditch all responsibility and live day to day.  In the end, the path of least resistance wins and he is just comfortable enough right now to stick with his job and our home.  But BPD makes it feel tenuous each time he gets moody.

I agree with you getting a car in your name, if you can an keeping whatever finances separate that you can (or separating any that are joined).  I might also look for any of his stuff still in the home and relegate it to the couch or someplace other than the bedroom , and if asked, make the comment that since you are separated and he is not contributing to household expenses they do not belong there.  It wold cause a fight, but would also maybe be a way to establish a boundary od sorts that he needs to sit on the pot or get off - he can't waffle day to day on if he lives with you or not - it's not just unfair to you and the kids, but it's a mess for him, too, and lack of stable schedules, stable routines seems to make BPD even worse.

I hate that this situation has you looking at your H as a roommate instead of a helpmeet.  If he was a stay at home dad who cooked, cleaned and took great care of the kids, I don't feel you'd look at him as needing to pay rent because he contributed to the home in other appreciated ways. 

[Shawna76]

isilme and Grey Kitty,

Thank you for responding. I'm really trying to understand why he does and thinks in these "backwards" ways. You're right to say he is an emotional mess. I've never met anyone like him. Well not until I met his mom and siblings. They all seem to have the same traits.

It's almost like I need to face up, that living with this man means, not being able to count on him doing what most adults would consider the role of the husband.

I had him remove his name off of everything but the lease. The landlords wont rent to me alone because I don't show enough income for the lease.  He stores his belongings in a box. The box stays on his side of the bed. He claims he is welling to pay the water bill. Mainly because it's the smallest bill. Every day is just as if he lives here except for the bare side of our closet. And his not doing anything towards our household.

oh, well. thanks.

[Fie]

Hello Shawna  

This is a very distressful situation for you and I'm so sorry.
I can relate very much because my exBPD did similar things.
We used to live together but pretty much as soon as he moved in he started talking about having a 'plan B'. He make sure I knew he was on house rental websites, for in case 'I would kick him out'.
He did not have his things in boxes nor did he sleep in the car, but the dynamics were similar. He took a separate bedroom where he hung out a lot (in weekends all day). He simply retreated from our common live and played video games in his room. I think he started to loose grip on reality also.
He did not want to pay rent nor part of the expenses. There was always trouble when bills needed to be paid. Since I own my own house he thought I should let him stay with me for free. He was tremendously worried that I was 'taking advantage' of him, yet of course he was projecting because this was exactly the thing he was doing to me.
Even for groceries he sometimes refused to pay half. It was terrible. Every expense we had to do was a struggle.
And this for a man who normally was not careful with his money at all. That's just very contradictory and if I understand correctly the same dynamics play in your situation.
I think in my ex's case it was him worrying that I would take advantage, it also was him wanting to take advantage of me and I think it also just was his way of telling me that in fact he did not want a common life with me (but was too afraid to leave me).
What do you think ?

And what do you want ? Do you want him around ?

[isilme]

Shawna,  

I'm sorry.  I HAVE been in that boat, and it DID improve... .but that was our case, it took a lot of time (years) and reading on my part, and radical acceptance.  For us, it looks like H's BPD is often at least partly tied to biochemical issues that can be helped with food, diet, exercise, and a routine.  

Do what you need to do for you and the kids.  Include him as you can if you want, but needs to want to be part of the family unit if he wants more consideration.  

The more I accepted that yes, he is emotionally disabled and so I have to assume most of the "adult" type responsibility, not because he is incapable all the time, but enough of the time he just won't keep up with things and I can't face the disruption not paying bills would bring, the easier it was to get through each day.  I accept that I KNOW what makes things in the house more or less work - if I am tired, busy, sick, dishes don't get done.  Groceries don't get bought.  If H harps on me about it, I don't even feel a need to "correct" him - I know the reason things may be less than perfect, and I know telling him it's because I can't do it all 100% of the time, perfectly, won't help the situation, so I kinda ignore it as much as possible.  

One thing I DID do, when he was the least responsible, was to stop "helping" (enabling) him so much.  Like, I'd  not bother to wake him to go to class - he was in his 20s and could do it himself if it mattered to him.  I'd not bother him about other things for the same reason.  If he wanted it, he had to reach for it.  And though it was a very hard time, I let him fail at things.  I do NOT nag (no matter his claims).  I will ask if I know he's not done something and it's impending, like his taxes once he started working again, but I'd not harp on it, nag, bring it up each day, whatever.  If he did them, good.  If not, he'd face a penalty.  Somehow, without much from me, he'd 'remember' to do them before midnight April 15th.  It may have been 10PM, but it was before midnight.

I also started to look at house work like this - partly after reaching a point 10 years ago where I was very close to leaving:  If I lived alone, and ran off with our pets, I'd still work full time.  I'd still do all the dishes, take out the trash, all the yard work.  I'd still be the one handling maintenance calls, remembering the bills, taking care of the pets.  There would be a little less laundry, less trash, and fewer dishes, fewer messes not of my making... .but other than that, my list if things to do would not decrease in a happy way.  I am not and have never been with H for help around the house, for someone to support me, and especially after we bridged that crisis 10 years ago, and he realized I actually had a foot out the door, he kinda grew up a bit.  He finally started working regulalry - he finished school.  He bought a house, finally let me know even before we could afford it he wanted to get engaged but that shame over how long it had taken him had delayed it even more.

I'd love it if we had like alternating responsibilities, or a chore chart where I mowed the lawn and he used the weed eater (I hate the weed eater, it' hurts my hands, while mowing is OC satisfying to me and like vacuuming).  But that's not on the table at this time.  And part of it IS actually due to some physical ailments that happen when you're approaching 40 and haven't taken great care.  Some is due to a lack of interest in the house being clean until guests are coming.  His mom IS a hoarder, his need for day to day tidy are not the same as mine coming from a military upbringing.  One person will alway be at some point the more dutiful one.  In some relationships this shifts due to life conditions, in some, one person is always the more stable, more able to cope, while the other is more emotional.  I kinda laugh inside because I feel I fulfill more of the traditionally male expectations of the relationship, while H is the one taking forever to et dressed because he feels fat - roles from an era when the woman was allowed to be emotional, less concerned with certain aspects of adult life, and encouraged to have a more narrow focus tied to home and kids (really, I can put on make up, do my hair, stockings and an evening dress and he's still not found a pair of pants).  

I guess if you can try to see how a lot of your H's actions are actually often rooted in some form of shame avoidance, even when he tries to verbally attack you, it helps take the sting out of it.  In many ways, BPD makes an adult react like a child when they can't process their emotions.  Or an animal in a trap who will bite you for helping.  

He needs SOME sort of regulation in his life so he can get more even.  You can't necessarily provide that, but I can tell you that while their out of control emotions fight routine, it's much like a kid who needs a nap - they need it.  They need regular sleep patterns. Regular meals.  a regular period of work, or at least a moderately predictable period of work.  :)uring the holidays we are lucky and get a long break.  H's mood deteriorates steadily as it progresses partly due to seasonal disorder, partly due to knowing work is coming, and a lot because he gets so off schedule he's going to bed a few hours before he'd get up on a work day, and sleeping much of the day.  

I'm sorry - I can empathize a little having been in a similar straight, but we did not ahve kids or merged finances and that made it easier to disengage if needed.  

[waverider]

Structure is always the big issue with pwBPD either they can get nowhere near it, or almost OCD like clinging to it. They often rely on others to provide it, while at the same time seeing you as the jailer if you you do, and so rebel. Actively rebelling is seen as a way of maintaining control rather than be seen to fail.

I find the best way was for me to maintain structure in my life, and leave my wife the option to either lean on it or not, rather than trying to impose it. The right to choose without judgement is intimately tied to a sense of of not being controlled. pwBPD will cut off their arm to prove a point when it comes to you trying to drag them by the hand.

[Shawna76]

 Hey Fie and Islime,

Thank you for sharing your stories. it makes me feel better.

I really don't know what to think any more. It's easy to count someone off as just being a no account lazy selfish person. But it's another when you learn that they are having this internal struggle as pwBPD which causes the issues.

I think if he was just my boyfriend, I would easily have ended this soon after year 2 just as all the other 7 ex's he had before me. But now i'm invested. I felt that i left my last marriage in a bad state because I quickly X'ed that husband out. He is a sociopath and cheated way too many times. I'm still feeling the repercussions of that breakup.

It's funny Fie, that you speak of your ex claiming that you were taking advantage of him. My H claims that all his ex's took advantage of him. He says that I don't appreciate him.  He uses the fact that when we initially moved out to this area, it was because I wanted a better school district for my children. So he too uses the excuse that he doesn't feel like he should have to pay bills because this is what I wanted for "MY" kids. Although the rent in our current house is lower then the last house we lived in. For him our current house only has 1 bathroom opposed to the 4 of the other house. He never worried abut cleaning 1 let alone 4 bathrooms.

He will then talk about how he wished that he would have thought about the importance of placing his daughter in a better school district when she lived with him. Mine you his 20 year old daughter couldn't bare living with him so she ran away a lot. Has 3 children and has been prostituting herself since she was 10 years old. Oh, that he is proud of the mothers of his other children who all have moved into better school districts. But I'm wrong for expecting my H to assist in paying to provide a home for his step children in a better school district.

Do I want to be with him? Yes.  I love him a lot.  It's crazy. We didn't have any problems until we moved together. We didn't live together until after we were married. Before, he had a small house in a bad neighborhood. He was on Section 8. Didn't have to pay rent. His lights were disconnected. He would take me on trips and would take me out dancing. He made a good boyfriend. We got along so well. Making a very cute couple.

We never really got to combining expenses. Not my choice. He wanted to have his bills and I have mines. This is the same man who preaches all day and night on FB about how people don't help build each other. I wish my relationship could be a give a little and take a little. Make the Dream work with Team work. But he won't.

As far as the bills. I'm just taking it day by day. I looked see it as islime said, I have to pay these bills if he is here or not. When I told him that he could stay even if he didn't pay bills, he cheered up. He pays for entertainment and will give a few dollars here and there. During the times he made "good money, he would pay more of the bills. Wouldn't do much if I asked. But he at least paid. I figured out a long time ago, that he isn't too much of a house, car or yard keeper. He may help me trim the trees if he sees me doing it first. Which I have learned to let go of that whole idea of him chipping in to do much house work. I guess someone who grow up in the projects with drug and alcoholic parenting, with BPD, would have a hard time understanding this concept. Maybe?

I need to just focus on getting back to taking care of me. Since we have been married I have put so much into him and forgetting about taking care of me.  I do believe that it will get better. I have been praying, and we are attending therapy both as a couple and individually.  I'm not interested in a divorce. My H isn't either. Just wanting to  understanding what I'm dealing with, how to handle it and how to just have peace with in myself.

[isilme]

I find the best way was for me to maintain structure in my life, and leave my wife the option to either lean on it or not, rather than trying to impose it

^^^YES!

[isilme]

Ok, so this is all new growing pains as well, living together, moving together to a new area, the actual responsibilities of being an adult as well as an adult expected to make a home work for children.  He probably kept a pretty low standard of living before you so he'd not have to feel beholden to the power company, etc. and living in his car makes sense to him if it means "freedom". 

Let him pay for entertainment.  When H worked part-time, in order to save his pride I'd "let" him be the one to either hold the cash, or pay on his own account when we ate out or went anywhere.  During the time he did not work, he was embarrassed when I was the one paying and people'd make jokes.  So letting him feel a little pride, maybe, in being able to pay for something may help in the long run to build up enough pride that his standard of living may increase.  A small thing to take the sting off knowing you support him and provide for him can go a long way after a while.

Good luck - I DO know how this is.  As long as you are BOTH working to stay together, something will change.