Strategy with attorney - help

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

I discussed lack of mediation progress with my L. He advised that divorce coach is limited what she can do in collaborative divorce - she has to be neutral. Her role is to help parties negotiate feelings that are blocking communications and be prepared for 4 way meetings with their attorneys. Great concept but with PwBPD, can't see how this will ever work. He advised getting child specialist involved because they can present facts without neutrality.

Issues: 1) Wife has expressed concerns that I am not caring for kids' eating, sleeping, bathing, discipline, growth; 2) wife went back on agreement of temporary 53/47 custody as reasonable; 3) wife has not found alternative living arrangements to begin nesting.

Nothing can proceed, we are stuck living together until at least issues 2 and 3 resolved.

My L agreed to: a) call divorce coach regarding concerns over lack of progress and pushing both wife and me to more facts, less feelings; b) contact wife's L to request he provide context to wife re. typical state custody decisions and that 53/47 is within norm; c) discuss lack of progress at 3 way meeting next week with divorce coach and wife's attorney.

I am to contact divorce coach and ask if she has confirmed child specialist is going to contact us. I am to follow up with divorce coach in 1 on 1 after next mediation session to discuss if I observe improvement.

This is not substantive, still seems too nebulous. My L agreed to focus on re-establishing temporary schedule as top priority to set precedent. I expressed my concern that all agreements (none reached to date) be in writing.

Any ideas of how I  am better manage this. I did talk a brief list of my priorities. Tried to stay out of story as much as possible. I am just doubting how we will ever get to agreements with process focusing on feelings. Should I be more actively using SET or other tools to help get wife and the team to what she is feeling? Not what I want but? Any advice on how to talk to child specialist?

[takingandsending]

I discussed lack of mediation progress with my L. He advised that divorce coach is limited what she can do in collaborative divorce - she has to be neutral. Her role is to help parties negotiate feelings that are blocking communications and be prepared for 4 way meetings with their attorneys. Great concept but with PwBPD, can't see how this will ever work. He advised getting child specialist involved because they can present facts without neutrality.

Issues: 1) Wife has expressed concerns that I am not caring for kids' eating, sleeping, bathing, discipline, growth; 2) wife went back on agreement of temporary 53/47 custody as reasonable; 3) wife has not found alternative living arrangements to begin nesting.

Nothing can proceed, we are stuck living together until at least issues 2 and 3 resolved.

My L agreed to: a) call divorce coach regarding concerns over lack of progress and pushing both wife and me to more facts, less feelings; b) contact wife's L to request he provide context to wife re. typical state custody decisions and that 53/47 is within norm; c) discuss lack of progress at 3 way meeting next week with divorce coach and wife's attorney.

I am to contact divorce coach and ask if she has confirmed child specialist is going to contact us. I am to follow up with divorce coach in 1 on 1 after next mediation session to discuss if I observe improvement.

This is not substantive, still seems too nebulous. My L agreed to focus on re-establishing temporary schedule as top priority to set precedent. I expressed my concern that all agreements (none reached to date) be in writing.

Any ideas of how I  am better manage this. I did talk a brief list of my priorities. Tried to stay out of story as much as possible. I am just doubting how we will ever get to agreements with process focusing on feelings. Should I be more actively using SET or other tools to help get wife and the team to what she is feeling? Not what I want but? Any advice on how to talk to child specialist?

[flourdust]

Just remember that you don't have to stay in a mediation process if it's not working for you. Nobody wants to take their divorce to court - it's more expensive and potentially more adversarial. But, you can piss away plenty of time and money going in circles with mediation, whereas at least court will move things forward. In your circumstance, I'd have an exit strategy, where you decide ahead of time at what point you're going to switch processes if mediation isn't making the progress you need to see.

[takingandsending]

Thanks flourdust. That is exactly what I have been trying to figure out - an exit strategy for if/when collaborative falls through or just fails to go forward. I'd really like to establish the parent plan via collaborative to keep the children out of court. Even child support should be mostly straightforward calculator for our state. That leaves maintenance and property division both of which Ia more comfortable litigating in court.

Now though, I am not certain I have strength to endure collaborative if progress is so slow. She had major dysregulation this morning when I drove sons to school after 1" snowfall. She sent several text rants because I was so insensitive not to consider her condition to drive in the snow to pick them up when school ended, should have checked in with her, made her feel even more out of control, caused her to be mean tempered to the boys, and resulted in her contracting an illness. I had a very prominent role in her life this morning despite me having driven 60 miles to work and being nowhere in the vicinity. 

[livednlearned]

Hi talkingandsending,

I really feel for you. It's hard to know when to pull the ripcord.

When you say "keep the children out of court," do you mean avoid hashing out custody details in court? Or, in your state, are the kids actually involved in the court process (some states do this, though usually in very high-conflict cases, and in judge's chambers)?

If you talk to a child specialist for this process, are you able to use that input in court if collaborative does not work out? Or would you have to start with someone new?

Does your wife have to agree to the child specialist? How do you plan to pick the child specialist?

What is your mental health like right now? Meaning, realistically, how much of this do you feel able to endure -- how long can you do this? Is it straining your relationship with the kids at all? At work? 

Sorry for all the questions. The details can make a difference in your strategy going forward.

Also, this video of mediation and conflict with Bill Eddy may be useful. My notes on the video are actually from a different video   so there's a bit of a mismatch, though maybe having both helps.

[Mika1739]

Is mediation court ordered?  If so decide ahead of time what you will and will not agree to.  Anytime the other parent accuses you of bad parenting ask them to be more specific with times and dates they saw you do theses things.  As a rule of thumb unless they saw you do things then they are just accusations.

Lastly, I would never speak with my xs attorney(other than general politeness) and especially not when my attorney is not present.

  Read the book Splitting: Randi Kreger & Bill Eddy--this could really help

In my opinion, you are spending a lot of time trying to change people's feeling and thinking.  As such you are being led into the wilderness of confusion.  I know because I was there.  Start journaling, calendaring, put everything in writing.  Facts destroy unwarented accusations and furthermore eventually make the accuser look dishonest.  If BPD is real in your case you have to be able to withstand 10,000 arrows without responding.

I would tell all parties involved that boundaries are very important to you and until your xs living situation is seperated you two are too enmeshed to be expected to Erin healthy negotiations.



How do you talk to a child specialist?  How do you speak to anyone in your case... .as a loving and concerned parent, not as a divorcee.

[takingandsending]

So collaborative agreements stay in force even if case moves to court litigation. I think that all the L and specialist information is confidential, i.e. doesn't go forward to litigation; I will ask my L about that today. So documenting, pointing out her unreasonable behaviors, etc. doesn't have a benefit in collaborative.

The child specialist is chosen by the two lawyers, and has to have experience/training working in collaborative environment - there are only a handful in town and one is S11's therapist, so she is out on basis of conflict of interest. The specialist role is to play with the kids, interview parents and provide impartial report to collaborative team on stability of relationships kids have with parents and make suggestions on residential schedule. She should be able to debunk wife's allegations to the team, which in theory leads them to working to convince her to settle on proposed agreement.

My mental health is okay. I see my T every week for venting and suggestions - she is also qualified in town as collaborative team resource specialist and knows the process and the pitfalls. I was upset Friday because I had a customer presentation to give while I was being pulled into wife's drama. She did a lot of name calling that I didn't engage in and blasted me again when I got home after a long day. She was sick - she has a history of dysregulation when she is sick (not that anyone is at their best when they don't feel well). She is feeling better today. Oddly enough, my wife mentioned last night that she doesn't see this process dragging out too long. Well, it shouldn't. But when it comes to actually agreeing to anything, that's when the emotions take over ... .   

For the record, I don't speak to x's L unless it is at a 4 way meeting with my L. He even pointed out a few instances that I was acting in her best interest during the first 4 way that we had, not that it really helped.

I agree on boundaries being important. That is what I am trying to stress to my L - the need for clear boundaries in negotiation/communication. Really, the sooner we can get out from under the same roof, the better. I imagine that buying tissues and checking in on her while she was sick this weekend sends conflicting messages in her mind. I try to keep all interactions with her to BIFF, but this would be a trying time for anyone, let alone someone w BPD.

[livednlearned]

one is S11's therapist, so she is out on basis of conflict of interest.

A loophole to this might be that the new therapist can talk to S11's therapist.

Our parenting coordinator was able to talk to my son's therapist, even tho son's therapist had us sign a waiver to say we would not ask her to testify in court. I don't even think permission was asked -- the PC just called her and it was after the fact I discovered that they discussed S15 (10-11 or so at the time).

I'm sorry this is so exasperating. You may experience the equivalent of "settling on the courtroom steps" that others members have had, altho in your case it would be the collaborative divorce version. Meaning, when and if the lawyers make it clear that collaborative divorce will not work and it will impact her in xyz ways (less money for her, selling the house, working with new attorneys, etc.), only then will she be motivated to agree to terms. 

In most cases discussed here, there is almost always some form of leverage or impending consequence that lights a fire.

[takingandsending]

lnl,
You are correct. S11's therapist can talk to the child specialist. That has been agreed upon by all parties at the 4 way. My wife's comments about this not taking too long came last night during a less than everything coming up roses budget discussion, which gave me some hope that she can see the costs of dragging this out are not supportable. It's just that logic always loses to feelings in my experience, so I don't expect that ray of light to keep shining before more clouds cover it up. But clouds come and go. That's life. I think that this team can work to leverage us both into a workable agreement. I just have to keep my wits about me and continue to de-stress after the meetings.

Thank you for the input.

[livednlearned]

I think that this team can work to leverage us both into a workable agreement. I just have to keep my wits about me and continue to de-stress after the meetings.

It says a lot about you that you can find it in yourself to use SET during such a stressful time -- even just thinking about using it. And, you found a team who understands BPD and are willing to use collaborative approaches.

If it's any comfort, doing it the alternative way (e.g. not collaborative) does not necessarily add up to a faster process. And the emotional strain can be worse, especially if the dysregulations roll downhill to the kids on a daily basis.

You're doing an amazing job with this 

I admire how you're handling things, as difficult as they are.

[Yleesor]

Sadly mediation almost never works with a BPD, bc signing an agreement is them giving up co from something they hate doing and don't know how to do. Go to court and get the ball rolling, in the end you likely up in court anyway

[ForeverDad]

No matter how much you hope this mediation team or collaborative divorce can get an equitable settlement early in the case... .keep in the back of your mind that presenting your case to the court and having the court make the decisions will probably be 'less unfair' than something your stbEx agrees to.

In most of our cases the disordered spouse is too entitled and there is minimal pressure to make a success of mediation.  Your approach may be able to mount some pressure from the professionals for meeting somewhere in the reasonable middle.  Time will tell.  Keep us informed.