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Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits. Practicing lawyer, Senior Family Mediator, and former Licensed Clinical Social Worker with twelve years’ experience and an expert on navigating the Family Court process.
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Author Topic: Really struggling  (Read 729 times)
roberto516
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« on: February 28, 2017, 07:21:59 AM »

So it's been just about 2 days of NC but I feel like I am losing my mind. I don't know if it's the nice weather or seeing my boss come in with yoga pants (my ex loved yoga) but I just feel so triggered right now. I can't wrap my head around the callousness and ease of her leaving after all the sacrifices I made. And I know she won't ever reach out again because none of this meant as much to her. And it sucks being at work because we used to work together and every little thing reminds me of her. I'm seriously considering talking to HR about a leave of absence. My mind is just all over the place. I don't know how to do this.
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“Pain and suffering are always inevitable for a large intelligence and a deep heart. The really great men must, I think, have great sadness on earth.”
mar356
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« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2017, 08:26:18 AM »

"So it's been just about 2 days of NC but I feel like I am losing my mind. I don't know if it's the nice weather or seeing my boss come in with yoga pants (my ex loved yoga) but I just feel so triggered right now. I can't wrap my head around the callousness and ease of her leaving after all the sacrifices I made. And I know she won't ever reach out again because none of this meant as much to her. And it sucks being at work because we used to work together and every little thing reminds me of her. I'm seriously considering talking to HR about a leave of absence. My mind is just all over the place. I don't know how to do this."

My friend, this is normal. The NC is very hard at first and does get easier, "mind of matter". The FOG in your mind will settle and you will function again and come back stronger than before. I wouldn't recommend taking a leave of absence because that would give you too much time to think.

In my case, there were days that were easy and days that were difficult.  My mind would race from time to time and I would be pretty exhausted for a while. I was bitter at first, but once you radically accept that these people are mentally ill it will help.  It is definitely hard to accept but I've had 4 BPD in my past, so I now learned too many times that you will never get closure from these people.  It is impossible for them.  On, the bright side moving forward you're now super aware of the red flags and should never allow yourself to be tricked by these mentally ill people again. Stick with the NC it works.

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roberto516
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« Reply #2 on: February 28, 2017, 08:29:26 AM »

"So it's been just about 2 days of NC but I feel like I am losing my mind. I don't know if it's the nice weather or seeing my boss come in with yoga pants (my ex loved yoga) but I just feel so triggered right now. I can't wrap my head around the callousness and ease of her leaving after all the sacrifices I made. And I know she won't ever reach out again because none of this meant as much to her. And it sucks being at work because we used to work together and every little thing reminds me of her. I'm seriously considering talking to HR about a leave of absence. My mind is just all over the place. I don't know how to do this."

My friend, this is normal. The NC is very hard at first and does get easier, "mind of matter". The FOG in your mind will settle and you will function again and come back stronger than before. I wouldn't recommend taking a leave of absence because that would give you too much time to think.

In my case, there were days that were easy and days that were difficult.  My mind would race from time to time and I would be pretty exhausted for a while. I was bitter at first, but once you radically accept that these people are mentally ill it will help.  It is definitely hard to accept but I've had 4 BPD in my past, so I now learned too many times that you will never get closure from these people.  It is impossible for them.  On, the bright side moving forward you're now super aware of the red flags and should never allow yourself to be tricked by these mentally ill people again. Stick with the NC it works.



Well I failed. I sent her an email with this article. www.huffingtonpost.com/margaret-paul-phd/leaving-a-relationship_b_876178.html

It talks about how when you argue and want to grow that it is a perfect chance to work through fears and insecurities. As I type this though I realize that she wasn't looking to grow. To confront those insecurities, and issues with control/resentment. It must suck. But I'm back to square one. Foolishly I thought she'll read it and be like "oh my god! He's right! Let me confront this!" But I said a lot of mean stuff. And she'll never forgive me for that.
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mar356
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« Reply #3 on: February 28, 2017, 08:37:50 AM »

"Well I failed. I sent her an email with this article."

I'd start NC over again. I straight up told mine that she was unBPD and they will only perceive that as negativity/criticizing towards them. You're in-between a rock and hard spot with them because they are incapable of self growth. Don't be surprised if you get a mean email back from her these people are emotionally stuck in childhood.
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roberto516
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« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2017, 08:51:48 AM »

"Well I failed. I sent her an email with this article."

I'd start NC over again. I straight up told mine that she was unBPD and they will only perceive that as negativity/criticizing towards them. You're in-between a rock and hard spot with them because they are incapable of self growth. Don't be surprised if you get a mean email back from her these people are emotionally stuck in childhood.

That's exactly me. I said some of the meanest things a human being could say. That was just my damaged inner child rearing it's ugly head. But she won't understand that. I attacked her verbally. And I have to take the blame for that.

I guess a part of me feels bad for her and myself. She's "working on herself" but not confronting any of those things that will just make the next relationsip unhealthy. And I just thought she'd be the one that I would work on this with and really gain insight and grow.

But I have to accept that she doesn't have that insight. It's safer for her to stay away. And find someone else she can be infatuated with. Every argument we ever had I'd always say "Why can't you see this as an opportunity to grow?" And she couldn't. So why would she see it now? Especially after all the mean things I said. Oh well. I did it. And I have to accept that I pushed her way beyond ever wanting to try again.
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“Pain and suffering are always inevitable for a large intelligence and a deep heart. The really great men must, I think, have great sadness on earth.”
mar356
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« Reply #5 on: February 28, 2017, 09:02:22 AM »

"I guess a part of me feels bad for her and myself. She's "working on herself" but not confronting any of those things that will just make the next relationsip unhealthy. And I just thought she'd be the one that I would work on this with and really gain insight and grow."

Just remember actions are louder than words.  In your case your actions showed you cared your words may have been aggression in the moment, her case her words "said" she cared but her actions showed she did not.  She won't have any honest communication at this point, she may throw you a bone here and there but I'd just ignore it.  It is honestly a lost cause, you won't be able to make them see the light and they will go on doing this possibly their whole life until the wind up single in retirement or have a mental breakdown and are court ordered into help... .   
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roberto516
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« Reply #6 on: February 28, 2017, 09:43:50 AM »

"I guess a part of me feels bad for her and myself. She's "working on herself" but not confronting any of those things that will just make the next relationsip unhealthy. And I just thought she'd be the one that I would work on this with and really gain insight and grow."

Just remember actions are louder than words.  In your case your actions showed you cared your words may have been aggression in the moment, her case her words "said" she cared but her actions showed she did not.  She won't have any honest communication at this point, she may throw you a bone here and there but I'd just ignore it.  It is honestly a lost cause, you won't be able to make them see the light and they will go on doing this possibly their whole life until the wind up single in retirement or have a mental breakdown and are court ordered into help... .   

That's true. It's all so terribly true. There was no honest communication once we broke up. First it was "i still want to be with you but I want to work on myself." then it was "i don't want to be in a relationship right now." then it was "When I do want to be in a relationship it won't be with you. We aren't a good match." then it was "Stop talking to me." I can't help but wonder though if I hadn't had so many outbursts would I have not pushed her away? But then again I have to remind myself. I would have changed my outlook and she probably would have kept doing her.

But thanks for the input. I just had a weak moment and now I'll have to wrestle with the fact that she won't respond to me. I keep putting myself through pain.
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« Reply #7 on: February 28, 2017, 09:58:01 AM »

I can't help but wonder though if I hadn't had so many outbursts would I have not pushed her away? But then again I have to remind myself. I would have changed my outlook and she probably would have kept doing her.

What was happening BEFORE your angry outbursts? I ask that because I have been able to see that most of the angry outbursts I had were due to feeling unheard and dismissed. I would try to talk to ex or get him to hear what I was saying. He would stonewall me or change the subject or do something else that pretty much said that he wasn't interested in hearing me or working with me. The outbursts were out of frustration on my part. I felt rejected and unheard. I mistakenly thought that he might change or do something different if I could just get him to hear me and understand me. If I could get him to see how hurtful his behavior was, I might be able to get him to do something different.

It isn't healthy and being frustrated isn't a good reason to lash out at somebody else. However, it is a good idea to look at WHY you had those outbursts and ask yourself why you continued to stay in a relationship where you were continually being frustrated and dismissed.

Excerpt
But thanks for the input. I just had a weak moment and now I'll have to wrestle with the fact that she won't respond to me. I keep putting myself through pain.

Quit trying to predict the future!  Smiling (click to insert in post) You don't know if she will respond or not. It is pure torture to try and anticipate how the other person will or won't act. I have a lot of experience with trying to predict and anticipate what ex would or wouldn't do. Is there anything you can do that is positive to help you not focus so much on her? Is there something that you have wanted to do but didn't for some reason?
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roberto516
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« Reply #8 on: February 28, 2017, 10:08:18 AM »

What was happening BEFORE your angry outbursts? I ask that because I have been able to see that most of the angry outbursts I had were due to feeling unheard and dismissed. I would try to talk to ex or get him to hear what I was saying. He would stonewall me or change the subject or do something else that pretty much said that he wasn't interested in hearing me or working with me. The outbursts were out of frustration on my part. I felt rejected and unheard. I mistakenly thought that he might change or do something different if I could just get him to hear me and understand me. If I could get him to see how hurtful his behavior was, I might be able to get him to do something different.

It isn't healthy and being frustrated isn't a good reason to lash out at somebody else. However, it is a good idea to look at WHY you had those outbursts and ask yourself why you continued to stay in a relationship where you were continually being frustrated and dismissed.

Quit trying to predict the future!  Smiling (click to insert in post) You don't know if she will respond or not. It is pure torture to try and anticipate how the other person will or won't act. I have a lot of experience with trying to predict and anticipate what ex would or wouldn't do. Is there anything you can do that is positive to help you not focus so much on her? Is there something that you have wanted to do but didn't for some reason?

I definitely felt unheard. I'll be short and to the point. When I packed up my stuff and left her house it was an indirect way of saying "I'm serious about this and I want to see if you care." Completely unhealthy I know. Then that night I asked if she wanted to go to a concert and she said her family already had tickets (which would've been bought while we were still dating). And I went off again. Probably because I had asked her before to please consider me in those decisions. Then after a while she didn't text me and I told her it's a lot of pain to be waiting for someone to reach out to you and she said "i told you I don't want to be in a relationship." Which I felt totally hurt and invalidated. Then most recently she texted me saying a coworker called her coworker to say I was depressed and she told me "I'm sorry you're hurting but you need to move on because now it's made it to her work place." So again I went off on her because I felt like I was being blamed for actually being depressed that I loved someone and she just stopped caring so quickly.

And it is torture. There is no chance, I know I'm predicting, that she will have this grand epiphany. But that article just made so much sense to me. But it doesn't to her. Relationships, in her faulty view, are not struggles. They are the grand image of perfection. I just thought we both felt the same way but in hindsight I see that every argument to her meant "This isn't working out." So what could I do really?
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“Pain and suffering are always inevitable for a large intelligence and a deep heart. The really great men must, I think, have great sadness on earth.”
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« Reply #9 on: February 28, 2017, 10:22:30 AM »

Roberto516-

I feel your pain, brother! I work every day with my ex and was doing so well avoiding her until she sought me out after a student assembly last Friday and totally caught me off guard as I did not see her coming. And of course, like many borderlines she is very attractive... .she is the PE teacher and cheerleading coach and wears yoga pants every day... .

I wasn't too hard on myself since I did not see her coming (it's a myth that teachers have eyes in the back of their heads). But because I smiled at her treachery at using students as a smoke screen so I could not respond negatively to her, she took that half-smile as I was now on friendly terms with her at work... .she showed up today in my classroom before school... .with those crazy green eyes... .

NC or LC is a challenge as she reads volumes into slight gestures... .it's tough... .stay strong... .do things for yourself to distract your mind... .
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« Reply #10 on: February 28, 2017, 10:29:22 AM »

I definitely felt unheard. I'll be short and to the point. When I packed up my stuff and left her house it was an indirect way of saying "I'm serious about this and I want to see if you care." Completely unhealthy I know.

I know how painful it is to care so much about somebody and have that person not return it. She had told you in a bunch of different ways that she didn't care. I bet she was feeling a bit unheard too.

How many different ways did she have to tell you or show you that she didn't care before you finally heard it and believed it? I know how painful it is to read my last statement. It makes me want to cry every time I think about all of the ways that he showed me that I wasn't as important to him as he was to me. When I look past my own idealization of him, it is so painful to look at all of the ways that ex told me that he couldn't be bothered with me. Yet, I continued to flail around and try to get him to hear me. I thought that I just had to find the right way to communicate with him. I tried nice. I tried mean. I tried all sorts of things to get him to hear me.


Excerpt
Then after a while she didn't text me and I told her it's a lot of pain to be waiting for someone to reach out to you and she said "i told you I don't want to be in a relationship." Which I felt totally hurt and invalidated.

Being rejected is very painful. She is telling you that she doesn't want to be in a relationship with you. Why aren't you hearing her? Why do you want to be in a relationship with somebody that doesn't want to be with you?

It is hurtful. It does feel invalidating. How you feel is none of her business. She has made it clear that she isn't interested in your feelings. I know that sounds very cold and callous and mean of me to say. It is something that I have had to wrestle with time and time again.

Excerpt
And it is torture. There is no chance, I know I'm predicting, that she will have this grand epiphany. But that article just made so much sense to me. But it doesn't to her. Relationships, in her faulty view, are not struggles. They are the grand image of perfection. I just thought we both felt the same way but in hindsight I see that every argument to her meant "This isn't working out." So what could I do really?

You were projecting your feelings onto her. I did the same thing. I loved ex and I thought he loved me the same way that I loved him. Maybe the article does make sense to her. Maybe she doesn't want to do the work with you. As painful as it is to hear that and accept it, she has the right to choose to reject you for whatever reason she wants. You wanted more from her than she was willing or able to give. I know that isn't a comforting thought. I deluded myself by telling myself that I wasn't wanting that much. Even though I didn't want a lot, it was still too much for ex.
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roberto516
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« Reply #11 on: February 28, 2017, 10:45:30 AM »

I know how painful it is to care so much about somebody and have that person not return it. She had told you in a bunch of different ways that she didn't care. I bet she was feeling a bit unheard too.

How many different ways did she have to tell you or show you that she didn't care before you finally heard it and believed it? I know how painful it is to read my last statement. It makes me want to cry every time I think about all of the ways that he showed me that I wasn't as important to him as he was to me. When I look past my own idealization of him, it is so painful to look at all of the ways that ex told me that he couldn't be bothered with me. Yet, I continued to flail around and try to get him to hear me. I thought that I just had to find the right way to communicate with him. I tried nice. I tried mean. I tried all sorts of things to get him to hear me.


Being rejected is very painful. She is telling you that she doesn't want to be in a relationship with you. Why aren't you hearing her? Why do you want to be in a relationship with somebody that doesn't want to be with you?

It is hurtful. It does feel invalidating. How you feel is none of her business. She has made it clear that she isn't interested in your feelings. I know that sounds very cold and callous and mean of me to say. It is something that I have had to wrestle with time and time again.

You were projecting your feelings onto her. I did the same thing. I loved ex and I thought he loved me the same way that I loved him. Maybe the article does make sense to her. Maybe she doesn't want to do the work with you. As painful as it is to hear that and accept it, she has the right to choose to reject you for whatever reason she wants. You wanted more from her than she was willing or able to give. I know that isn't a comforting thought. I deluded myself by telling myself that I wasn't wanting that much. Even though I didn't want a lot, it was still too much for ex.

None of it is comforting. They just do so well to make you believe in the beginning thay they love you. But then their actions don't support it. I just really wish I had stuck to my guns when I left first. Instead of falling for her begging and then when I said we should try she had cut me off. I just hate that she's in control here. I know she isnt deep down. But I was feeling so much better when I left. And then I let her take all the power.
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“Pain and suffering are always inevitable for a large intelligence and a deep heart. The really great men must, I think, have great sadness on earth.”
roberto516
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« Reply #12 on: February 28, 2017, 11:26:05 AM »

I just can't wrap my head around why I care so much for someone who truly didn't care after the idealization phase. She has made it perfectly clear we are done and thay she isn't in love with me anymore. I guess it's because I fell for it in a past relationship and just can't wrap my head around it.
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“Pain and suffering are always inevitable for a large intelligence and a deep heart. The really great men must, I think, have great sadness on earth.”
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« Reply #13 on: February 28, 2017, 12:28:48 PM »

"I just can't wrap my head around why I care so much for someone who truly didn't care after the idealization phase. She has made it perfectly clear we are done and thay she isn't in love with me anymore. I guess it's because I fell for it in a past relationship and just can't wrap my head around it."

I wouldn't try and wrap your head around it there is no logical explanation. The explanation is she is borderline and is mentally ill. During the idealization phase the brain ups it's happy hormones (serotonin/dopamine).  In reality this is equal to getting a high that a heroine abuser feels, then when they suddenly discard you out of the blue the withdraw happens and the happy hormones go away leaving you with intense anxiety and leaving you craving for that high they give you. Everything with a BPD is "all or nothing" the good times are the best the bad times are the worst.  This is why they are toxic relationships.  This is why NC is your safe and only option to help your mind rid her before you can start bettering yourself.


 
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« Reply #14 on: February 28, 2017, 12:36:11 PM »

Hey Roberto, sorry you're going through this. I/we know the feelings you are feeling and it's brutal.

As you know, i work with mine. Shortly after the discard when I felt like i knew who she discarded me for, i had a night where i didn't sleep at all. i tossed and turned in my bed thinking of them. I went for a drive at like 2 a.m. I tried to read myself to sleep. i tried everything. and then i went into work without any sleep at all and had to see and hear her and it was brutal.

i had many hard days in the days/weeks/month after. I did a lot of therapy that helped. But really it just takes time, unfortunately.

just push through these early days, see a therapist, feel all the emotions, and know over time it does get better. Though it is hard now, i know. boy do I know.
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roberto516
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« Reply #15 on: February 28, 2017, 01:46:02 PM »

Hey Roberto, sorry you're going through this. I/we know the feelings you are feeling and it's brutal.

As you know, i work with mine. Shortly after the discard when I felt like i knew who she discarded me for, i had a night where i didn't sleep at all. i tossed and turned in my bed thinking of them. I went for a drive at like 2 a.m. I tried to read myself to sleep. i tried everything. and then i went into work without any sleep at all and had to see and hear her and it was brutal.

i had many hard days in the days/weeks/month after. I did a lot of therapy that helped. But really it just takes time, unfortunately.

just push through these early days, see a therapist, feel all the emotions, and know over time it does get better. Though it is hard now, i know. boy do I know.

This is helping me so much. I know I keep having my weak moments with the NC but all of this support is so helpful. No one else in her life views her this way, and at least I have comfort in you guys and my therapist who see it for what she really is. Because I couldn't understand it, even as a therapist myself, and then I started doing research and I realize what this all is.
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« Reply #16 on: February 28, 2017, 02:25:40 PM »

Roberto-

More than likely there are many others who know what she is like... .borderlines eventually reveal themselves to others; they can't help it. They exhibit the same dysfunctional behaviors to family and friends that they do to significant others. In fact families have put up with these behaviors since before their teen years, and possibly had a hand in creating these characteristics.

My ex would at times hate her mother, then idolize her, then have no contact with her for 6 months and then agonize over calling her... .at her extended family Christmas dinner she raged at her mother in front of everyone because her mother would not allow her to drink... .she stormed to her room, purged and cut herself; her ex-boyfriend and best friend for 5 years... .she physically abused while on a romantic ski trip over new year's... .she is the maid of honor in a college friend's wedding next month and she hasn't talked to the bride in 6 months; she cries almost daily around students; she has very few girlfriends or friends in general... .

Borderlines burn through all relationships, not just romantic
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« Reply #17 on: February 28, 2017, 02:32:46 PM »

Roberto-

More than likely there are many others who know what she is like... .borderlines eventually reveal themselves to others; they can't help it. They exhibit the same dysfunctional behaviors to family and friends that they do to significant others. In fact families have put up with these behaviors since before their teen years, and possibly had a hand in creating these characteristics.

My ex would at times hate her mother, then idolize her, then have no contact with her for 6 months and then agonize over calling her... .at her extended family Christmas dinner she raged at her mother in front of everyone because her mother would not allow her to drink... .she stormed to her room, purged and cut herself; her ex-boyfriend and best friend for 5 years... .she physically abused while on a romantic ski trip over new year's... .she is the maid of honor in a college friend's wedding next month and she hasn't talked to the bride in 6 months; she cries almost daily around students; she has very few girlfriends or friends in general... .

Borderlines burn through all relationships, not just romantic

That's funny actually because her parents are still taking care of her and she's 35 they pay for her to go back to school they pay for her car inspections all of that stuff they even put down so much money so her mortgage is so cheap.

But her mom is really condescending to her at times and you should see how it used to absolutely destroy her but she would always forgive her mom which makes perfect sense knowing Her diagnosis and why if I ever snapped and said something mean I was painted black.

And then she always used to say that her one ex called her exhausting which again makes sense because we are the ones always putting out the fire and never getting anything in return.

And the last thing I'll say when she moved jobs the receptionist made a comment that was apparently just a joke but she became hysterical crying until everyone was apologizing to her and even her boss that's some good boundaries with her and she had these breakdowns in his office and he probably just thought whatever I'm just kinda not fight this and I'll let her do what she wants
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« Reply #18 on: February 28, 2017, 04:26:09 PM »

That's funny actually because her parents are still taking care of her and she's 35

I had a very long heart to heart conversation with ex's mom one time. When I told her some stuff, she said, "I thought he would have grown out of that by now." He is a mommy's boy that is for sure. He valued his mother's opinion more than he valued mine during our marriage.

I spent a lot of time looking at his history and how he was. I tied myself in knots over trying to understand him. I thought that if I could understand him, I could somehow figure out how to get him back or something. I don't know what I was thinking. I just knew that I couldn't let go. I was hurting.

The thing that I wasn't doing was looking at my own history to help me understand why in the world I would allow myself to continue in a relationship like that. Even asking him for basic things was too much. I bring this up because I think it is really important to try to focus on why you are holding onto this so tightly. For me, when I stepped back, I realized that ex reminded me a lot of my mom. Since coming out of the fog, I get really creaped out over how similar some of their communication styles are.

And, I also realized that I grew up being told things like, ":)o as I say, not as I do." I was pretty much trained to listen to the words rather than see that the actions were completely NOT okay. That is precisely why I spent so many years listening to ex's words rather than paying attention to his actions. I was trained from an early age to put out fires and take care of others and not get anything in return.

Excerpt
No one else in her life views her this way, and at least I have comfort in you guys and my therapist who see it for what she really is. Because I couldn't understand it, even as a therapist myself, and then I started doing research and I realize what this all is.

That is the hardest part of all in my opinion. Most of the people in real life don't see what the kids and I see. I was talking to one of my kids about how he puts on such a good boy act when in the presence of others. I think it is something that is beyond comprehension. Instead of focusing on understanding him, I am trying to focus on why on earth I would want to be with somebody like that. It is easy for me to say this now since he has been out of the house for a year now. Hang in there, it does get better!

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« Reply #19 on: February 28, 2017, 07:11:04 PM »

I had a very long heart to heart conversation with ex's mom one time. When I told her some stuff, she said, "I thought he would have grown out of that by now." He is a mommy's boy that is for sure. He valued his mother's opinion more than he valued mine during our marriage.

I spent a lot of time looking at his history and how he was. I tied myself in knots over trying to understand him. I thought that if I could understand him, I could somehow figure out how to get him back or something. I don't know what I was thinking. I just knew that I couldn't let go. I was hurting.

The thing that I wasn't doing was looking at my own history to help me understand why in the world I would allow myself to continue in a relationship like that. Even asking him for basic things was too much. I bring this up because I think it is really important to try to focus on why you are holding onto this so tightly. For me, when I stepped back, I realized that ex reminded me a lot of my mom. Since coming out of the fog, I get really creaped out over how similar some of their communication styles are.

And, I also realized that I grew up being told things like, ":)o as I say, not as I do." I was pretty much trained to listen to the words rather than see that the actions were completely NOT okay. That is precisely why I spent so many years listening to ex's words rather than paying attention to his actions. I was trained from an early age to put out fires and take care of others and not get anything in return.

That is the hardest part of all in my opinion. Most of the people in real life don't see what the kids and I see. I was talking to one of my kids about how he puts on such a good boy act when in the presence of others. I think it is something that is beyond comprehension. Instead of focusing on understanding him, I am trying to focus on why on earth I would want to be with somebody like that. It is easy for me to say this now since he has been out of the house for a year now. Hang in there, it does get better!



I just first want to say thank you Vortex for your consistent feedback and brutal honesty since I have joined this site on Saturday. The funny thing is I'm a therapist and I do know. It's just so tough when your own will is involved. Like my therapist told me from day one "I'm gonna treat you like a therapist."

And I have gained insight into my own dysfunctional family. I saw my mom screaming and pleading with my father for affection/understanding and he would just remain silent. This is exactly the same thing that played out with us. I would be talking about my emotions and she would stay quiet throughout. And my mom always stayed and did what my father asked. My father is not a bad person at all. He has helped me so much in my life and my mother. But I think I found it normal to "stick it out" and not leave someone just because you're angry. And it sucks because my parents stuck it out and have always loved one another. So I guess I assumed all my partners would do the same. The problem is I find partners who have these traits, and they just don't know how to do that.

I get lured in with the infatuation phase because it's everything I expect a relationship to be. And then when trouble comes I expect it's something to be worked on; not thrown away. But that's me projecting onto others. I know it will get better. As I type that I realize that this relationship could never be one of mutual sacrifice, and viewing the struggles as growing pains instead of reasons for leaving to protect one's control.
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« Reply #20 on: February 28, 2017, 07:38:18 PM »

But I think I found it normal to "stick it out" and not leave someone just because you're angry. And it sucks because my parents stuck it out and have always loved one another.

Have you thought about your view of love? I ask that sincerely because that is something that I have had to look at closely. My parents just celebrated their 49th wedding anniversary. I could easily say that they have stuck it out and loved each other. The older I get, the more I find myself thinking, "If what my parents have is love, I don't want any part of it." I don't want to have to beg or plead with a partner for attention. I want to be able to communicate openly and honestly. I want to be able to express my needs and have my partner hear me. I want my partner to be able to express his needs and have me hear him.

No, you don't have to leave someone because you are angry. At the same time, sometimes it is best to realize that you don't have to stick it out. You don't have to subject yourself to bad treatment out of obligation or commitment. Sometimes, people shouldn't stick it out. I have watched my mom and dad stick it out and I think that what they are doing is very unhealthy and I do NOT want to duplicate it.

Excerpt
So I guess I assumed all my partners would do the same. The problem is I find partners who have these traits, and they just don't know how to do that.

Why do you find those traits attractive?  Smiling (click to insert in post)

Excerpt
I get lured in with the infatuation phase because it's everything I expect a relationship to be. And then when trouble comes I expect it's something to be worked on; not thrown away.

Have evaluated your expectations of a relationship? I realized that my expectations were very, very skewed. I am still trying to figure out how to gauge what is normal. I know that what I had with ex is NOT normal. I know that what my parents have is NOT normal.
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« Reply #21 on: February 28, 2017, 07:53:42 PM »

Have you thought about your view of love? I ask that sincerely because that is something that I have had to look at closely. My parents just celebrated their 49th wedding anniversary. I could easily say that they have stuck it out and loved each other. The older I get, the more I find myself thinking, "If what my parents have is love, I don't want any part of it." I don't want to have to beg or plead with a partner for attention. I want to be able to communicate openly and honestly. I want to be able to express my needs and have my partner hear me. I want my partner to be able to express his needs and have me hear him.

No, you don't have to leave someone because you are angry. At the same time, sometimes it is best to realize that you don't have to stick it out. You don't have to subject yourself to bad treatment out of obligation or commitment. Sometimes, people shouldn't stick it out. I have watched my mom and dad stick it out and I think that what they are doing is very unhealthy and I do NOT want to duplicate it.

Why do you find those traits attractive?  Smiling (click to insert in post)

Have evaluated your expectations of a relationship? I realized that my expectations were very, very skewed. I am still trying to figure out how to gauge what is normal. I know that what I had with ex is NOT normal. I know that what my parents have is NOT normal.

www.huffingtonpost.com/margaret-paul-phd/leaving-a-relationship_b_876178.html

This article perfectly describes my view of love. But this takes a mutual committment. Mutual being the key word. I think the problem is that people don't expect that there will be arguing or times of begging or even times where you don't want to spend another minute with one another. It's how we look at the struggles. If both partners view it was a real chance to face demons and that being uncomfortable and doubting the relationship means that it can truly blossom. This article is how I view a relationship for right or wrong. I took a psychology test that my former coworker gave me and he said the general theme is that I always see the positives in every situation (well mostly... .here I'm struggling).

But I could never have that with her. The arguments and tough times were valid confirmations for her that it wasn't working. I told her she had a disney view of relationships. If you have a disney view of perfect love than guess what? You will eventually be disappointed. We are all humans. With emotions, and unhealthy coping skills. No human is perfectly able to control themselves at all times. The anger, anxiety, sadness are all normal emotions.

Does it help when a partner is there to support you in that? Absolutely. But should we never expect our partners to be human and play a role in causing us some discomfort? And I guess that's my thoughts. If we aren't uncomfortable we aren't growing. If we aren't growing we are missing out on so much of this world. And I'll have to shift my viewpoint and realize that I can grow from being uncomfortable right now.

But I was uncomfortable a lot with her. But I always saw it as a chance to grow together. The problem is I had an anchor on my foot, which was her, which was saying "This is pointless. If we fight it can't be true love." And she never communicated this to me. I didn't know until she dumped me that she had doubts and fears. Had she spoke to me I would've listened and worked on it. But I tried working on it too late for her.

So yes, in my sense of love based on that article, this wouldn't have worked out. She could never see that a relationship takes hard work and all the struggles only meant that we could both learn how to be stronger people.

Because as the article says and I'll paraphrase, "If you run away you are playing it safe. And there will be no one to anger you, cause you discomfort. You will just play it safe by leaving until the next relationship where it will all happen again because you didn't learn how to work on it."

And that's the article I sent her earlier in the day. So she will probably take it to heart but remember it for the next guy. Because i'm painted black. Oh well, can't dwell on it. But if I sent it to her and I am black to her she probably isn't going to even entertain that I might be onto something.
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« Reply #22 on: February 28, 2017, 08:22:29 PM »

I don't agree with that article at all. It talks about physical abuse but mentions nothing of emotional or sexual abuse. Yelling screaming, having to plead for love, and all of that is not what I would consider a healthy relationship at all.

If you read on this site, constantly threatening to leave is a form of emotional abuse.

I have real trouble with this statement:
Excerpt
No matter how difficult things get at times, you have a responsibility to yourself, your partner, your family and the whole of humanity to do the learning you came to this planet to do.

I might have agreed with it at one time. Not any more. Stuff like that is what kept me in an almost 20 year relationship with a man that said and did things that no woman should ever have to experience. I don't have a responsibility to him. I have a responsibility to myself and my children. That is it.

I can learn without being verbally abused. I can learn without being screamed at and insulted. I can learn without somebody calling me a b**ch. When I read the above statement, I feel a bit triggered because it is basically saying that I gave up on my relationship with my husband. Kicking him out was one of the hardest decisions I have ever made in my life. Reading stuff like that helped keep me in the fog. Reading stuff like that made it seem like I should have sat back and taken his abuse.

Were the two of you married? Did you have kids? Did you have a house? Did you have shared property? Was there any kind of serious commitment?

I also take issue with this statement:
Excerpt
If you are fortunate enough to be with a partner who is, at least some of the time, open to learning with you, you are fortunate indeed.

Ex was open some of the time. Most of the time, he was pseudo open. He paid lip service to being open to learning with me. Should I be grateful that he was inconsistent and was okay some of the time? Doing the Jeckyll and Hyde thing is fine because at least you are getting some good and some learning some of the time? I am not trying to pick on you here. I really do think that articles like this make it really easy for people to fall for people that may not be good for them. No, you shouldn't run at the first sight of trouble. At the same time, I think people should be encouraged to evaluate their situations carefully. If somebody wants out of a relationship, then they should be able to get out of it without being bullied or made to feel like they are defective because they didn't want to stay and work on it.



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« Reply #23 on: February 28, 2017, 08:34:18 PM »

I don't agree with that article at all. It talks about physical abuse but mentions nothing of emotional or sexual abuse. Yelling screaming, having to plead for love, and all of that is not what I would consider a healthy relationship at all.

If you read on this site, constantly threatening to leave is a form of emotional abuse.

I have real trouble with this statement:
I might have agreed with it at one time. Not any more. Stuff like that is what kept me in an almost 20 year relationship with a man that said and did things that no woman should ever have to experience. I don't have a responsibility to him. I have a responsibility to myself and my children. That is it.

I can learn without being verbally abused. I can learn without being screamed at and insulted. I can learn without somebody calling me a b**ch. When I read the above statement, I feel a bit triggered because it is basically saying that I gave up on my relationship with my husband. Kicking him out was one of the hardest decisions I have ever made in my life. Reading stuff like that helped keep me in the fog. Reading stuff like that made it seem like I should have sat back and taken his abuse.

Were the two of you married? Did you have kids? Did you have a house? Did you have shared property? Was there any kind of serious commitment?

I also take issue with this statement:
Ex was open some of the time. Most of the time, he was pseudo open. He paid lip service to being open to learning with me. Should I be grateful that he was inconsistent and was okay some of the time? Doing the Jeckyll and Hyde thing is fine because at least you are getting some good and some learning some of the time? I am not trying to pick on you here. I really do think that articles like this make it really easy for people to fall for people that may not be good for them. No, you shouldn't run at the first sight of trouble. At the same time, I think people should be encouraged to evaluate their situations carefully. If somebody wants out of a relationship, then they should be able to get out of it without being bullied or made to feel like they are defective because they didn't want to stay and work on it.





Well that's the differing viewpoints. I think many of the things she is saying can be taken out of context. I don't think she is endorsing emotional or sexual abuse by not stating them.

But as I said in the beginning. It has to be mutual. See my ex thinks alot like you in the sense of "this wasn't working. I'm leaving and noone can tell me diferent." Because she probably thinks I was trying to manipulate her to stay.

But I view things a little different. Our culture has trained us to see struggles and any discomfort as things to get away from quickly. Look at prescription medication and our consumerism. But people fall in love for a reason. But it's too easy to be bombarded with the message of "if it's hard then quit."

Now I'm not condoning staying in something if it's abusive. I'm only saying that we can only grow through struggle. And people leave relationships really soon because it's easier to stay in control than it is to be vulnerable. But vulnerability is so beautiful. To admit faults, confront fears, take leaps of faith.

Just Google why you should stay in a relationship versus a Google search for why you should leave. It's night and day. Because if you want to believe it or not. Our society has engraved in us the message that things just shouldn't be too hard to achieve. Probably why there's such a high divorce rate. People expect peaches and cream. Sometimes all it takes is a little mutual work. And I stress the word mutual.

But I never learned about myself by throwing in the towel. I'm talking about my relationship. I always grow in a relationship by pushing through. Y partner coukdnt do that. And she should in my opinion. Or else she'll repeat the same patterns. And so will i. Because ad the article said I might be working on myself. But if I want a relationship again all those things are laying dormant. It happened to me before. 3 years of self care but also 3 years of not having to make behavioral changes in a relationship. So I fell right back into old patterns.
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« Reply #24 on: February 28, 2017, 08:57:51 PM »

Well that's the differing viewpoints. I think many of the things she is saying can be taken out of context. I don't think she is endorsing emotional or sexual abuse by not stating them.

She clearly states: "No matter how difficult things get at times, you have a responsibility to yourself, your partner, your family and the whole of humanity to do the learning you came to this planet to do."

Excerpt
But as I said in the beginning. It has to be mutual. See my ex thinks alot like you in the sense of "this wasn't working. I'm leaving and noone can tell me diferent." Because she probably thinks I was trying to manipulate her to stay.

Let me ask you a question. I think I read in one of your posts that you lambasted her, called her names, and said a bunch of nasty stuff to her. To me, that sounds abusive. What woman would stay around and continue to be verbally abused? So, she is supposed to blow it off and forgive you and stay and grow with you and run the risk of being verbally attacked again? It doesn't matter what she thinks. She chose to end the relationship. She has that right.

Excerpt
Now I'm not condoning staying in something if it's abusive. I'm only saying that we can only grow through struggle. And people leave relationships really soon because it's easier to stay in control than it is to be vulnerable. But vulnerability is so beautiful. To admit faults, confront fears, take leaps of faith.

YOU can choose to grow through struggle. That is YOUR choice. Her making a different choice than you is painful but it is equally valid.

Excerpt
But I never learned about myself by throwing in the towel. I'm talking about my relationship. I always grow in a relationship by pushing through.

I pushed through my fears. I went and met a random guy from the Internet at a motel while my husband talked me through it on the phone. I conquered that fear and I did it because that is what ex wanted. When ex wanted details in the beginning, I gave them to him. When he wanted to sit next to me and tell me that I should go boink some guy because he had a big member, I sat there and didn't say anything. I pushed through a lot of pain. I pushed through a lot of discomfort. I tried so hard to grow into the person that ex wanted and needed me to be. But, I eventually gave up and threw in the towel. I was tired of pushing through. I was tired. If I had left early on when things didn't feel right instead of pushing through, I might not have ever had to experience those things.


Excerpt
And she should in my opinion. Or else she'll repeat the same patterns. And so will i. Because ad the article said I might be working on myself. But if I want a relationship again all those things are laying dormant. It happened to me before. 3 years of self care but also 3 years of not having to make behavioral changes in a relationship. So I fell right back into old patterns.

Who are you to tell her what she should be doing? Why is it any of your business whether or not she repeats the same patterns? I am not trying to pick on you. I felt like my ex should be doing things differently. I felt like he should be fighting for his family. I felt like he should have gone to counseling or really anything to try to help me to keep our family together. I sacrificed myself in some really horrendous and twisted ways. At the end of the day, I had to let go of this notion that he should do anything. It isn't my job to save him. It isn't my job to tell him what he should or shouldn't be doing. Even if I fall back into old patterns in future relationships, my hope is that the person that I am with is willing to work with me instead of against me. If I see signs that they aren't willing to work with me, then, yes, I will be bolting rather quickly.
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« Reply #25 on: March 01, 2017, 03:03:47 AM »

She clearly states: "No matter how difficult things get at times, you have a responsibility to yourself, your partner, your family and the whole of humanity to do the learning you came to this planet to do."

Let me ask you a question. I think I read in one of your posts that you lambasted her, called her names, and said a bunch of nasty stuff to her. To me, that sounds abusive. What woman would stay around and continue to be verbally abused? So, she is supposed to blow it off and forgive you and stay and grow with you and run the risk of being verbally attacked again? It doesn't matter what she thinks. She chose to end the relationship. She has that right.

YOU can choose to grow through struggle. That is YOUR choice. Her making a different choice than you is painful but it is equally valid.

I pushed through my fears. I went and met a random guy from the Internet at a motel while my husband talked me through it on the phone. I conquered that fear and I did it because that is what ex wanted. When ex wanted details in the beginning, I gave them to him. When he wanted to sit next to me and tell me that I should go boink some guy because he had a big member, I sat there and didn't say anything. I pushed through a lot of pain. I pushed through a lot of discomfort. I tried so hard to grow into the person that ex wanted and needed me to be. But, I eventually gave up and threw in the towel. I was tired of pushing through. I was tired. If I had left early on when things didn't feel right instead of pushing through, I might not have ever had to experience those things.


Who are you to tell her what she should be doing? Why is it any of your business whether or not she repeats the same patterns? I am not trying to pick on you. I felt like my ex should be doing things differently. I felt like he should be fighting for his family. I felt like he should have gone to counseling or really anything to try to help me to keep our family together. I sacrificed myself in some really horrendous and twisted ways. At the end of the day, I had to let go of this notion that he should do anything. It isn't my job to save him. It isn't my job to tell him what he should or shouldn't be doing. Even if I fall back into old patterns in future relationships, my hope is that the person that I am with is willing to work with me instead of against me. If I see signs that they aren't willing to work with me, then, yes, I will be bolting rather quickly.

I can't help, with all due respect, feeling like I'm now in a straw man situation. All I was saying was thay if two people mutually, and I'll stress the word mutually, can view the struggles as positive and both want to grow then there's nothing better than fighting through.

I will not put words in your mouth. It seems like you hear me saying tha no matter what you should stick it out. I should have run earlier too. I get that. But I let my belief that she felt like I did get the best of her.

And yeah I said alot of mean stuff at the end. But she has gotten rid of me before those rage outburst. I feel bad fr the person and bad for kyself. Bad because I do love her and the thing she wants most (sense of peace) she will never get through her coping mechanisms. I feel bad because I knew all this and jumped right in anyway. Oh well.

You know I get that people need to just let go. And I'll get there one day. But right now I'm not ready. I have to deal with regrets. And I need to heal.
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« Reply #26 on: March 01, 2017, 06:19:40 AM »

"I can't help, with all due respect, feeling like I'm now in a straw man situation. All I was saying was thay if two people mutually, and I'll stress the word mutually, can view the struggles as positive and both want to grow then there's nothing better than fighting through."

"And yeah I said alot of mean stuff at the end. But she has gotten rid of me before those rage outburst. I feel bad fr the person and bad for kyself."


Don't let her see your ego and self worth has been crushed.  BPD people can make level headed people say crazy things because nothing seems to get thru to them only extremely good or extremely bad things.  A relationship that makes you start doubting yourself is a bad relationship. If you can't even communicate then there is no point.

"You have been down this alley before and fell into a deep ditch. You struggle to get out and make it out.  You then decide to go down the same alley again and fall into the same ditch.  You struggle to get out, but make it out a lot quicker this time.  This pattern continues until you take a new alley home."

I wouldn't waste anymore energy on thinking of her. I'd waste energy on improving yourself, educating on all PD and moving on.  This is your only solution.

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