Borderline Personality and Civil Enablement

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

I have spent a number of years dealing with a BPD ex, and while I've had considerably more success than expected working through the courts (thus far...) it has been because of an aggressive and focused legal strategy from the inception of the divorce - years of hell, mental health treatment and my ex's unfortunate ex and his family taught me a lot of lessons others learn the hard way on similar roads.

Nonetheless, the entire experience which involves civil courts, criminal courts, CPS, mental health professionals, lawyers, restraining orders, numerous lost decades old friendships and battles that rage on into the present has left me with a rather cynical perspective of this diagnosis.  The level of disregard for any rules and boundaries, the well being of children, or... society in general in this entire disorder are simply astounding, unacceptable, and unbelievable to me.

This leads to my questions and the entire purpose for signing up for this forum.  Through the course of this ongoing ordeal, reading many books, and in general doing a fair bit of research I am, despite years of doing so successfully before, struggling to find an empathetic perspective or further reserves of empathy for individuals suffering from this disorder. 

It seems like we're supposed to view this as a disorder, and sufferers thereof as victims who, in turn, are able to use this label of a mental health condition as a method of permanent escapism from responsibility or accountability for their actions.  Their spouses, family members, and most of all children are left to carry the burden of the sins of these juvenile parents well into adulthood, creating a vicious cycle of enablement around the very behavior we form victim support groups around.  As they lie, cheat, manipulate, victimize and steal their way through the courts, life, and relationships we mourn those in their path of destructions while we look onward with support groups and kind, but concerned, words, further enabling the genesis of the destruction.

I can't help but feel like the real answer is the very stigmatization being actively lobbied against of this disorder.  My honest sense, after years of dealing with this, is that most people with this sickness cannot be helped, don't want to be helped, and that they are ultimately criminally intended... criminally insane if you will... and best repurposed to a controlled environment with limited freedom and exposure to the outside world.  Yet, it does not seem like anyone is lobbying or working to even lesser degrees of such.  Why are there no laws severely restricting parenting time or access to certain kinds of social services oft' exploited by these individuals as a default, or groups working towards such outcomes?

While I do get that this goes somewhat against the grain of post-modern thinking with regards to mental illness, and actively encourages it's stigmatization, but I do feel like it needs to asked aloud that maybe this is actually warranted?  Does the social harm caused by this illness not warrant restriction of levers for destructions to those suffering?  Don't get me wrong - in no way am I saying we should stop researching or finding ways to limit the further propagation of this disorder, but at some point, we need to also acknowledge that the harm caused by these individuals is itself a method of propagation of both the disease and further social destruction and decohesion. 

Any help is appreciated, whether it's in the form of support group style feedback (because it will all be ok, one way or another ), or guidance into finding politically involved groups and committees focused on supporting the victims and children of these individuals.

[ProtectiveDad]

I have spent a number of years dealing with a BPD ex, and while I've had considerably more success than expected working through the courts (thus far...) it has been because of an aggressive and focused legal strategy from the inception of the divorce - years of hell, mental health treatment and my ex's unfortunate ex and his family taught me a lot of lessons others learn the hard way on similar roads.

Nonetheless, the entire experience which involves civil courts, criminal courts, CPS, mental health professionals, lawyers, restraining orders, numerous lost decades old friendships and battles that rage on into the present has left me with a rather cynical perspective of this diagnosis.  The level of disregard for any rules and boundaries, the well being of children, or... society in general in this entire disorder are simply astounding, unacceptable, and unbelievable to me.

This leads to my questions and the entire purpose for signing up for this forum.  Through the course of this ongoing ordeal, reading many books, and in general doing a fair bit of research I am, despite years of doing so successfully before, struggling to find an empathetic perspective or further reserves of empathy for individuals suffering from this disorder. 

It seems like we're supposed to view this as a disorder, and sufferers thereof as victims who, in turn, are able to use this label of a mental health condition as a method of permanent escapism from responsibility or accountability for their actions.  Their spouses, family members, and most of all children are left to carry the burden of the sins of these juvenile parents well into adulthood, creating a vicious cycle of enablement around the very behavior we form victim support groups around.  As they lie, cheat, manipulate, victimize and steal their way through the courts, life, and relationships we mourn those in their path of destructions while we look onward with support groups and kind, but concerned, words, further enabling the genesis of the destruction.

I can't help but feel like the real answer is the very stigmatization being actively lobbied against of this disorder.  My honest sense, after years of dealing with this, is that most people with this sickness cannot be helped, don't want to be helped, and that they are ultimately criminally intended... criminally insane if you will... and best repurposed to a controlled environment with limited freedom and exposure to the outside world.  Yet, it does not seem like anyone is lobbying or working to even lesser degrees of such.  Why are there no laws severely restricting parenting time or access to certain kinds of social services oft' exploited by these individuals as a default, or groups working towards such outcomes?

While I do get that this goes somewhat against the grain of post-modern thinking with regards to mental illness, and actively encourages it's stigmatization, but I do feel like it needs to asked aloud that maybe this is actually warranted?  Does the social harm caused by this illness not warrant restriction of levers for destructions to those suffering?  Don't get me wrong - in no way am I saying we should stop researching or finding ways to limit the further propagation of this disorder, but at some point, we need to also acknowledge that the harm caused by these individuals is itself a method of propagation of both the disease and further social destruction and decohesion. 

Any help is appreciated, whether it's in the form of support group style feedback (because it will all be ok, one way or another ), or guidance into finding politically involved groups and committees focused on supporting the victims and children of these individuals.

[Gerda]

I think I understand what you're talking about. Like labeling it an "illness" gives them an excuse for their behavior, so they don't have to be held accountable.

I've thought about this a lot too. With some kinds of mental illnesses, the person really does have a chemical imbalance in their brain. With those, they can usually be treated with medication to correct the imbalance. Even something as serious as schizophrenia seems to respond well to medication and it's not like the person is choosing to hallucinate.

But with personality disorders, their actual beliefs and worldview is disordered. Medications don't do anything. They actually have to be willing to change their beliefs about how the world works, and most of them are not willing to do that.

It's really frustrating to me too that they aren't held accountable for their actions. I get it. Being held accountable for something you've done wrong is hard. It's tough to admit you were wrong about something. But a healthy person sucks it up and deals with it. The egos of people with BPD are so delicate they can't handle it at all.

I remember one of the times I confronted my husband that time he threatened to punch me in the face, while I was holding our baby, while I had my leg in a cast from a broken ankle, and he finally just started screaming again and again, "I'M A GOOD PERSON! I'M A GOOD PERSON!"

He can't handle apologizing or making amends about doing that, because that would be admitting he's a "bad person," so at first he kept justifying doing it (I attacked him first, I pushed his buttons, etc.) and now finally he's switched into denying the whole thing happened at all.

But if you can't ever admit you're wrong or ever make mistakes then you can't ever change or improve. And then you just keep hurting people again and again.

[ForeverDad]

Nonetheless, the entire experience which involves civil courts, criminal courts, CPS, mental health professionals, lawyers, restraining orders, numerous lost decades old friendships and battles that rage on into the present has left me with a rather cynical perspective of this diagnosis.  The level of disregard for any rules and boundaries, the well being of children, or... society in general in this entire disorder are simply astounding, unacceptable, and unbelievable to me...

It seems like we're supposed to view this as a disorder, and sufferers thereof as victims who, in turn, are able to use this label of a mental health condition as a method of permanent escapism from responsibility or accountability for their actions.  Their spouses, family members, and most of all children are left to carry the burden of the sins of these juvenile parents well into adulthood, creating a vicious cycle of enablement around the very behavior we form victim support groups around.  As they lie, cheat, manipulate, victimize and steal their way through the courts, life, and relationships we mourn those in their path of destructions while we look onward with support groups and kind, but concerned, words, further enabling the genesis of the destruction.

Been there, done that.  Many here, especially on the Divorcing/Custody board, have experienced that.  Victims all around, everyone.  But most people aren't also victimizers.  As well, BPD traits vary from one to the next.  Some are not as extreme as your ex and others' ex-spouses.  That one aspect of applying a diagnostic category - even if not diagnosed - across such a wide spectrum of behavior patterns.

I was in my municipal court system for a few months as the protected spouse.  She was found not guilty simply because case law required her to have a weapon in her hands to be found guilty and she didn't.  Threats against life were technically against the written law but case law superseded.

I was also in and out of family court for about 8 years, six of them post-divorce.  My experience did touch all the agencies you listed.  At first court defaulted to a gender preference.  The temp order was inflexible and no one was interested in correcting it, presumably because it was "only temporary".  Even when it was clear only one parent was seeking solutions, it only made minimal corrections each time which meant it took longer to get an order that worked.

William Eddy, author of several conflict/_PD books such as Splitting, also hosts seminars with lawyers and judges - I watched one seminar - but it's a huge system and enlightenment is slow.

[ParentingThruIt]

in a perfect world, a diagnosis - not just the disorder but related destructive patterns of behavior - would in my opinion drive some kind of mandatory treatment and examples of best practice custody decisions / step up plans etc. Instead my case has always been "an anomaly" even though when we share info here it's well in the range of what people deal with when a co-parent has this disorder.

I heard an NPR spot a while back about some family of chronically mentally ill people trying to change the laws that allow them to refuse treatment, out of concern for them. I think that hits on a similar issue. You have someone with compromised cognitive ability with a lot of power to make decisions. I guess it's one thing if they make decisions about themselves, another if it's for their minor children.

[kells76]

Hi ProtectiveDad and welcome  

PD's are so difficult to handle in the legal system (to say nothing of everyday life) and I wonder if part of it is because there's often nothing "tangible" to point to. An alcoholic drinks, an addict uses drugs, but when parents with PDs (whether diagnosed or not) are emotionally inappropriate with their children, there isn't a "thing" to test or quantify.

There are individuals working to get a better framework for managing pwPD's in the legal system. Like ForeverDad mentioned, William Eddy, who is both a lawyer and a LCSW, started the High Conflict Institute in 2008 to help "professionals and individuals understand high conflict personalities and manage high conflict situations with confidence and skill".

Have you read any of Dr. Craig Childress' materials? He's been working to get what's often termed "parental alienation syndrome" reunderstood not as a stand-alone syndrome (without robust psychological support), but as a dynamic readily understood by pre-existing and completely accepted psychological concepts. Heavy reading but a real eye opener for me when I ran across him.

While BPDfamily.com is not a political or public interest group and does not engage in advocacy, I'm certain there are other groups out there if that's your interest. It might be interesting to see if Eddy's HCI or Childress' practice participate in any kind of model legislation creation.

What we are good at is helping members navigate What Is, regardless of How It Should Be. The legal system "should" do a much better job at protecting children from PD behaviors. Trust me, I know (had to call CPS a couple months ago). But no matter how it should be, we work with how it actually is in the moment -- and there's a wealth of knowledge and experience here for you.

It's also interesting to think about diagnosis vs no diagnosis. A member here (from long ago), with four kids, had a wife who had diagnosed BPD and bipolar. She went through multiple psych hospitalizations and was in DBT and on medication. Except for one suicide threat while the kids were in the home (but they didn't hear/see anything), she was actually OK with the kids -- stayed fairly positive towards and engaged with them and didn't badmouth her H, though she had significant limitations (could engage with the kids a maximum of ~1-2 hours per day). He did the heavy lifting of transportation/bedtime/etc.

Honestly, I would rather she be who my H and I were dealing with -- with her diagnoses and all -- than my H's kids' mom who does not have any diagnoses and has not (to my knowledge) made suicide threats, but is relentless in her dysregulation, badmouthing of H, emotional inappropriateness with the kids, and lack of will to protect them from her husband's erratic behavior.

So to me, "diagnosis equals restrictions" isn't so clear cut -- it's the behaviors that are problematic, less so the label. A diagnosis isn't nothing, yet undiagnosed persons with PD-type traits and behaviors can deal as much or more damage. It's hard stuff.

If we could find a way to identify, quantify, and then actually action on emotionally/psychologically damaging parenting behaviors... that'd be a dream come true, and I think all of us here would be on board.

Anyway, glad you found us and opened up this discussion -- lots of great food for thought. Please feel free to settle in and get day-to-day support as we all work within the limitations of how things are.

[Notwendy]

You have someone with compromised cognitive ability with a lot of power to make decisions. I guess it's one thing if they make decisions about themselves, another if it's for their minor children.

My  BPD mother has been reckless with her finances, refused or not complied with medical treatment, and has difficult behavior in her assisted living. She is considered "legally competent" and makes her own decision.

To have any imput into her decisions, I would have to take her to court and it would be a losing endeavor. The law is on the side of the elderly parent to protect them from explotation but it disempowers family who are also trying to protect them from their own self destructive behavior and does not account for how the pwBPD is behaving with them.

[Notwendy]

I agree with Kells that a diagnosis itself isn't a good definition of competent or how the legal system should handle a person. BPD is such a spectrum disorder and it overlaps with other PD's and conditions. I don't usually share much to others about my BPD mother but people who are aware of her behaviors have asked me " her decisions are poor- she can't be competent-why don't you just take over ".

To help me with this question, I actually consulted an elder care attorney on my own expense. I initually hesitated as I wasn't sure it would change anything but the information gained was valuable and I felt it was worth it because knowing the exact circumstances for doing so helped me to know what I could and could not do.

Bottom line: nothing. Since my mother remains legally mentally  competent, it would take a time consuming and costly court situation of which it is unlikely to be successful. Only in the event that she becomes legally mentally incompetent could I intervene on her behalf. Legally competent is not the same as having good judgement or being rational. I would have to provide medical evaluations and evidence to prove that.

I understand how it must feel crazy making to have someone appear "together" in court and yet have issues that can't be tangibly assessed for legal purposes. I know there must be anguish when it involves a minor child and there's no way to intervene on that child's behalf.

[PeteWitsend]

This thread is very interesting, and I think involves some deeper philosophical issues . 

I read somewhere that people with personality disorders are over-represented among the ranks of CEOs and politicians, and I assume that applies as well to leadership in the military, police forces, intelligence agencies, etc.

Trust is the "glue" that holds a society together: words have to mean the same thing to different people in order for these people to communicate; and events and statements have to be mutually understood in order for relationships to function. 

Yet, a person can gain a HUGE advantage within a society and over the other members of it, if they're willing to violate this trust for their own gain.  And we have very poor means of enforcing the truth, and holding people accountable for violating it.  I feel like - especially right now - in America we're doing an exceptionally poor job of this, and indeed, a lot of our laws and our tax code benefits those who cheat, and punishes those who don't. 

The people who cheat and get political and economic power then can re-write the laws and determine how they're interpreted in order to preserve their status, and ensure they won't be held accountable for the actions that got them there.  So that may explain some of the deference we see pwBPD get in court.

But I think moreso, it's just a hard thing to manage, by its very nature.  Given how difficult it is to diagnose, and how professionals are still coming to grips with the nature of BPD, I don't think restricting parenting time is feasible.  There's too much of a risk of it impacting people who aren't BPD. 

I also don't think of it as a "sickness."  It's a way of behaving that these people have learned, either because of a genetic predisposition or an adaptation to survive childhood abuse and neglect, or both. 

I think our best solution is to better teach our kids and others about this; to get the word out.  And to recognize certain behaviors for what they are.  Marginalize these people, and don't have more kids with them. 

I also don't have a lot of sympathy for pwBPD.  like you, I was also on the receiving end of years of grief, and the sort of emotional and mental abuse they seem to enjoy inflicting on those around them. 

It's hard not to want to sink to their level and exact retribution in the same way they inflicted abuse on you, but in my own life I remind myself that they enjoy conflict and drama, and seem to thrive on it.  So to engage with them on that level is almost nurturing for them, in a twisted way.  By ignoring them and not taking the bait, you leave them to stew in their own vile juices, and maybe that's more punishment that we realize.  I hope it is!  They deserve 10 times back the suffering and pain they caused everyone around them.