internal dialogue - what goes on in their minds?

[LilacSunflower]

Do individuals with BPD ever reflect on their behavior?

[Notwendy]

I think it depends on the extent of the disorder. Maybe some pwBPD are more self aware than others but denial and projection are a part of it. My BPD mother "rewrites" history in her thinking. So for a moment, she is reflecting on her behavior but then it is re-written for her in her thinking and so is changed, or gone.

I think everyone at some point says or does something we regret or wish we had done differently. When we reflect on this- we also learn from it and so choose to not do it again or do something different. If we have hurt someone's feelings, we can apologize. This is how relationships can be repaired.

With my BPD mother, the process is different. She may be inititially aware that she did or said something. The dialogue in her mind then changes what happened to - it didn't happen, or it's someone else's fault, or it happened in a different way. Maybe someone else did it or said it. She then may call the person up to report her story to them. There isn't an apology, or any learning from it because once she rewrites the story- it's a different version.

I know this because when she does this, she thinks out loud and then tells her side of the story- more like a lecture- about what happened. If you ask her about what she did or said later on- her reply is that she didn't say or do it.

[LilacSunflower]

NotWendy,

I have noticed the same thing. However, I don't think one can succesfully suppress legitimate feelings such as regret over saying something hurtful.

[Notwendy]

I think the projection is a means of avoiding shame. I would agree that how much someone can suppress probably varies- with BPD being on the spectrum. It can also overlapp with other PD's.

In my situation, my BPD mother also has NPD traits. She is predominantly BPD but one trait is lack of empathy. She doesn't seem to have regret over her actions in context of someone else- if she shows regret - it's because of any consequences to her, not how the other person feels. As far as having been hurtful to someone else- she doesn't care or show any concern or remorse.

I don't think all pwBPD are like this but it varies a lot, so perhaps some people do feel remorse.

[CC43]

Hi Lilac,

I observe the behavior that Notwendy describes.  I think that re-writing history and projecting onto others are standard coping mechanisms for someone with BPD.  A typical scenario might go like this.  Let's say there's a family gathering over a holiday.  Initially, the pwBPD probably thinks that a family gathering might be fun.  But when she arrives, she quickly sees the attention is focused on others.  Maybe someone announced a pregnancy or a wedding.  Maybe someone got a promotion at work.  Maybe someone is talking about a wonderful vacation.  All of the sudden, her mood shifts.  She's generally unhappy, so seeing others joyful feels like an insult.  Maybe she's jealous.  Maybe she feels judged harshly.  Maybe she feels inferior, as she isn't pregnant, or engaged, or even employed.  Everyone else can afford nice vacations, and fancy clothes, and yet she has to beg others for money.  It's not fair.  Her thinking is very negative, and her thoughts might devolve into a death spiral:  I'm worthless.  I'll never amount to everything.  I'll never get anything I want.  Since this is utterly painful to her, she might resort to her usual tactics, to shield herself from pain.  Her thinking switches:  my parents and siblings abused me, and that's why I'm so damaged.  It's their fault they make me so unlovable, and that my life is miserable.  No wonder I can't have a boyfriend, no wonder I can't hold down a job.  No wonder I can't afford anything.  It's all their fault!  And then she might lash out in anger.  She might blow up over a trifling comment, or seemingly nothing at all.  Maybe someone laughs, and that's the last straw.  She might bring up some ancient slight and spew hatred towards a loved one.  Maybe she uses projection:  "You're evil!  You're so narcissistic!  You're such a spoiled brat, I can't even stand to be in the same room with you!"  And she probably storms off, leaving everyone shocked and dismayed.  She might throw and break things on her way out.

She might be embarrassed over her behavior, but she'll probably re-write history rather than apologize.  Later, she might accuse a relative of insulting her and throwing something at her, even though no one else remembers that happening.  She projects her own bad behavior onto someone else, absolving her of doing anything wrong.  You'll never be sure if she really believes this lie or not.  Maybe it doesn't matter, because she'll never own up to having a breakdown and ruining a holiday for others.  The reality is that she just can't bear to see others happy when she's miserable.  It's almost as if she has to make others miserable, right along with her, so that they feel the extent of her pain.

So to your question, does she reflect?  I think she does, but when she reflects, she becomes dysregulated, and she'll invent a story to make herself the victim.  That is how she copes. 

[Notwendy]

CC43- you brought up an interesting point. I think pwBPD tend to take "victim" perspective.

I have tried to look at her family dynamics as they are now. BPD wasn't known at the time and mental illness wasn't spoken of but it's not likely that BPD behaviors as disruptive as hers are would only show up after she was married.

I asked her sibling who is younger and so doesn't know much but  says she seemed spoiled and always got her way.  Possibly, she was being appeased to avoid her dysregulations. Another possiblity is that her parents were over compensating for her. Although she is intelligent, she has poor emotion regulation and poor executive function.

In her era though- the goal for a young woman was to marry a husband who could provide and she did this well, and this became her source of self esteem. But compared to her family members, she is not as capable but it's important to her to present as such.  From her perspective, it must have been difficult to feel less competent so she acted as if she was.

My mother's public image of appearing competent and accomplished is well developed and yet, for her, fragile. If threatened, she will disregulate. When she does have family get togethers, she is very stresssed and everything has to be perfect. I recall her getting upset when her family was coming for dinner and we bought soup with the wrong shaped noodles in it ( wrong to her but it wasn't really an issue). And if she overhears a conversation about her she is on high alert for anything said about her and if we dared to say anything about her, there'd be trouble.

The reality is- she isn't competent. She can't manage daily tasks. She is very good at getting people to do things for her but you can't admit that they did it, not her. Even to this day, when one of her caregivers was talking about her needs to me on the phone, she called me up later to tell me the caregiver was making it up.

As difficult as this is for people who are trying to help her- I have empathy for what it must have been like for her to grow up with her issues and to have to pretend to maintain her own self image. Someone's self worth isn't based on what they accomplish- we need people to be varied and do all kinds of work and everyone can be valued but I don't think my BPD mother can feel this or perceive other people's caring intentions.

[CC43]

Hi there,

Notwendy provides a very accurate description of what I think goes on with my stepdaughter who has BPD.  "Although she is intelligent, she has poor emotional regulation and poor executive function."  Bingo.  I might modify that a wee bit and say, though she is intelligent, she has poor emotional regulation, which leads to poor executive function.  My stepdaughter just can't make plans or follow through with obligations when her emotions get in the way.  Invariably she'll adopt a victim attitude, and she'll quit everything, while at the same time expecting others to service her.  She can seem very needy and demanding that way.  Rather than feel responsible, I think she feels that others (and the world) owe her something.  One might think she's spoiled, but I think it's deeper than that.  It's as if she expects so much from others because she's a victim and is entitled to retributions.  Others don't deserve the same latitude, because they aren't victims--they are the persecutors.  Maybe this is another form of black-and-white thinking characteristic of BPD.

And indeed, I think my stepdaughter's self-image is very fragile.  She seems to have a hard time finding the good in others, and especially the good in herself!  She seems excessively superficial, as she is obsessed with looks, rather than talents, accomplishments, experiences, a sparkling personality or other traits that make people delightful, varied and interesting.  She wouldn't appreciate a quiet person who's nice, reliable and a great listener.  I think she yearns for a boyfriend, but whenever she talks about candidates, she always states something along the lines of, "I'm just not attracted to him," which makes me wonder if she's as obsessive about men's looks as she is about women's.  Anyway, Notwendy, you mention how your mother is obsessed with her public persona, and how she'll go to great lengths to appear perfect, and maybe she's overcompensating for her lack of self esteem.  I feel that my stepdaughter operates the exact same way, but in her case, her public persona is based primarily on her looks.  If she has a pimple, she could literally self-destruct.  Now I know how frustrating acne can be (I have rosacea flares), but I wouldn't want to let a pimple overtake my mood, derail my day-to-day activities or destroy my relationships, the way it seems to do for my stepdaughter.  She's a beautiful woman, and yet I bet she sees only her "flaws."  She talks about getting plastic surgery, and she often changes her hair and looks.  I'm not saying that plastic surgery or a quest for self-improvement is bad; I guess the point I'm making is that even if she had plastic surgery, I think she wouldn't be any happier, as she'd focus on yet another perceived "flaw" in herself.  She just can't (or won't) be happy with herself, I fear.  And that negative attitude eventually finds an external outlet.

[Notwendy]

There is a time/focus/competency factor that I think plays into this situation for them. If someone devotes time and focus to playing an instrument or a sport- they are going to get better at this than someone who doesn't. So if someone's focus is on their appearance- that can become their ability- and so if it's the only focus- they won't learn other skills. With poor executive function making learning other skills a challenge- and attention on their looks- maybe the focus on looks becomes their focus?

I have read on the relationship board that some posters feel pwBPD have a certain attraction. My mother has that aspect to her.  It seems her charm and attractiveness is a strength for her and in her era- where it was expected for women to marry and become housewives- it was appropriate for her to be focused on that. Men were attracted to her. Whether or not she is attracted to them or how much? I don't know. But for a woman in her era- working outside the home was not common for women, and being married was. The hope was to "be in love" too but it wasn't the only reason for marriage.

The relationship world is different now. Both women and men are looking at varied attributes and relationship arrangements. As to your SD's cricicism of potential boyfriends- I think it's possibly projections of your SD's feelings rather than their looks- while looks may be part of it. My BPD mother can be critical of other people -but it seems that her criticisms are more about her than the other person. It also may be that your SD is being critical of potential partners out of fear they will discover what she doesn't like about herself. For my BPD mother- marriage was expected of women by a certain age. In current times, it's more acceptable if someone chooses to wait or not be married.