Not adding up

[Bowman]

Now my wife claims she has a boyfriend, if that's the case, it could have only started online and likely while we were actively together. I'm so hurt by this, even if it's farce I'm hurt by this.

I'm so confused, all of my emotional attention was always on her. My love and attention was always unconditional and patient. I just don't understand how one fight erases everything. How does a moment erase five years.

I'm also being asked to contribute to frighting her things she left for me to pack, I'm thinking I cannot do that now.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[kells76]

Hi Bowman, I'm sorry to hear it's been more difficult for you lately.

Now my wife claims she has a boyfriend, if that's the case, it could have only started online and likely while we were actively together. I'm so hurt by this, even if it's farce I'm hurt by this.

Did she tell you that herself?

I'm so confused, all of my emotional attention was always on her. My love and attention was always unconditional and patient. I just don't understand how one fight erases everything. How does a moment erase five years.

There's a lot there to unpack. Are you feeling shell-shocked right now? Survival mode/grief/pain can be a hard place to do self-reflection from.

I'm also being asked to contribute to frighting her things she left for me to pack, I'm thinking I cannot do that now.

That's OK. It's fine to have limitations -- we all do. This is a really emotionally heavy time.

There might be a continuum of ways to engage with her request.

One extreme would be hostile non-cooperation/trying to punish her: "If you want it so bad then you come back and deal with it -- I'm not lifting a finger"

The other extreme would be overfunctioning/fawning: "Whatever you say you want I'll do, no questions asked, and all at my expense, maybe you'll come back if I do"

There might be a few middle options where you don't fan the flames (hostile/not cooperative) and you don't do what's beyond your emotions (overfunctioning):

One middle option could be: boxing up what she asks for and putting it in a storage unit. Coordinate with her: does she want the key directly, or is there someone in town she wants you to give it to. It's up to her at that point to "take it across the finish line" if she wants it shipped to her.

Another middle option could be: boxing up her items, asking a local, trusted mutual acquaintance to hang onto them, and letting her know to work with that person to finish the process.

A third middle option could be letting her know that even though you aren't able to send things at the moment, you will have her things boxed up for her in the living room at home.

These are just brainstorming ideas for getting out of the drama triangle where you're either the Persecutor ("Bowman never does anything for me, he won't even do this last simple request") or Rescuer ("It's Bowman's job to do whatever I want, but I won't respect him for it afterward"). There may be other options that fit your situation better. Move to the center -- keep an adult dialog going.

[Bowman]

Did she tell you that herself?

There's a lot there to unpack. Are you feeling shell-shocked right now? Survival mode/grief/pain can be a hard place to do self-reflection from.

Thank you Kells for your sympathy, It is good to read your advice.

No, she did not tell me that directly. She is not openly communicating with me over phone, text, or primary social media accounts. I have however been contacted through various sites, social media, email, and phone, via burner accounts, one of which was male voiced. It is me piecing together bread crumbs and trying to make sense of any of this bewildering account of events. I observed the claim on a social media post, and she in a text some weeks prior was angrily stating her partner would take care of things if I did not.

I have been shell-shocked since 7/29, I have been in a fog for more than a month. And, prior to that it had been a really difficult series of months since March this year. I feel like I have been running a marathon for years now, and now there is some sort of mad beast chasing me after I thought I crossed a finish line. My heart and mind do not stop racing, i'm typically panicking or disassociating regardless of context in this last month or so. I signed up for therapeutic services, but had a panick attack when I was supposed to get on the phone about a week ago and haven't rescheduled since.

So to note; I have just about packed everything, and I am coordinating with my wife's mother to freight the boxes. What I am unsure of is, do I unpack all the boxes she packed which contain things that are mine that she spitefully put there and threatened me not to touch. And, I am unsure, if I should pay for any of the freight costs, I feel like this is exclusively my Wife's responpsibility, not her mother's, not mine.

I feel like I traded dancing on eggshells for dancing on razor blades.

[ForeverDad]

Now my wife claims she has a boyfriend, if that's the case, it could have only started online and likely while we were actively together. I'm so hurt by this, even if it's farce I'm hurt by this.

This is not an uncommon report.  Even though the relationship was dysfunctional, it seems many disordered persons do start a new relationship quickly, or even start one as the old one is ending.

Rebound relationships often don't last.  That's why it is wisdom to take the time to process what happened to a relationship - to wait, often months or longer - before contemplating another.

[Bowman]

This is not an uncommon report.  Even though the relationship was dysfunctional, it seems many disordered persons do start a new relationship quickly, or even start one as the old one is ending.

Rebound relationships often don't last.  That's why it is wisdom to take the time to process what happened to a relationship - to wait, often months or longer - before contemplating another.

I'm well aware, by the testimony given here, and her own that she gave me. She often described the regret and trauma caused by constantly being with someone and never spending the time developing herself. Its very difficult to see her return to a pattern that took everything from her in her teen years up until we began to forge our lives together, and the pattern ceased for a period.

Early on in our relationship she told me of the struggle she had with her disorder, and all the romantic and sexual endeavors that were instigated by it, and compounded her pain. Its really hard to see her dive right back in after an episode with little to no awareness, of returning to this pattern. Especially when after I became aware of her path leading to me, and I set my life to fulfilling her needs and setting a foundation to where she could remain in therapeutic services, community, and fulfillment. I saw a woman stuck in a phase of her life, unable to actualize, I dedicated my life to helping her become the person she was struggling to be--and now it feels like she has taken that from herself to spite me in a moment of extreme pain..

I want the best for her, and I know blindly returning to old patterns, while also lapsing in all therapeutic services, is going to set her on a path that will destroy her progress she made towards self reliance and actualization. Not only do I have my heartbreaking for myself and the life I was planning, but my favorite person is destroying herself again, and all I can do is watch from a thousand miles away.

[Skip]

I'm so confused, all of my emotional attention was always on her. My love and attention was always unconditional and patient. I just don't understand how one fight erases everything. How does a moment erase five years.

Two things come to mind. 1) BPD is characterized by impulsiveness, and 2) people sometimes find it easier to run from a bad situtaion and start over rather than try to fix things.

It wasn't created in "one moment", though. Her job crashed and burned and recovery seemed distant. Its hard to have a job crash and burn. It harder when the recover options are limited.

The day to day living situation had become financially difficult/stressful.

You were (as she perceived) critical of her... and then boom.

The hope of a fresh slate (and ditching the problems) may be what this is all about.

Her hammering on you as a loser is a way to blame other for her failure... it's not her failure... it's you and she may feel the first step to solving her problems is pushing you away.

Reality will set it, but this is probably what you are living right now.

What do you think?

[Skip]

She is distancing herself from the past.

I think it would be helpful if you do the same. 

She is not going to want to come back to the past.

That's why its important for you to start moving forward to the future.

That will be more attractive to her, once she gets to baseline and can look in with a balanced eye.

What are 5 things you could improve to make a future homecoming more attractive?

[Bowman]

I'm honestly not in fear of it, the constant behavior has me feeling like its a signal of a desire for communication even if its one way in the form of information. Something like; it seems like she wants the information, if she was truly done with me, I don't understand the impulse to keep tabs on my thoughts.

Two things come to mind. 1) BPD is characterized by impulsiveness, and 2) people sometimes find it easier to run from a bad situtaion and start over rather than try to fix things.

It wasn't one moment though. Her job crashed and burned and recovery seemed distant. The day to day living situation had become financially difficult.

The hope of a fresh slate may have been her motivation.

What do you think?

I think that is one of the larger contributing factors, there was a constellation of things, with respect to my sisters wedding, her wanting to see her family, missing friends. I find it hard to fully rectify as, we were both diligently working on our next steps. She even forged ahead on her own at times, without my encouragement. She put herself back into therapy before I could suggest it, she put together a care team that included a route to higher education, she found self study courses. Our day to day was generally very good and very calm, it was whenever we were doing something more than just chilling at home that friction would arise.

I do think I lost sight of how unwell she is, and how fast things can snap backwards. Our first two years were wild, many suicide attempts, many lost jobs, many lost housing situations, but I managed to mitigate all of the fallout, and always secured our needs and our social standing. I think at the end of four
years I got comfortable, because she was becoming increasingly functional. We had an amazing stride from 2022 to 2024. The frequency of fights, self harm threats, and threats of leaving all started subsiding.

I just don't know how to put these pieces together. We talked about changing how we approached our futures, like living apart and me putting her through school, but she rejected the idea hard stating she couldn't get a long with her mother, and now she is living there. It feels like we did all the planning and a lot of brainstorming, and we were on the precipice of making some big moves. And, that was coming up right after we had to go to my sisters wedding, which was happening right after she instigated a big fight over me stating I felt unsupported.

I just feel like it was a massive storm of things, that were weighing on her. Truly it had to have been an impossible load to bear for her, I myself was finding it difficult.

And, if she was seeking a clean slate. She doesn't appear to be using it, she fell right back into a pattern she stated she never wanted to repeat, i.e. cycling through people and living situations and never actualizing. She keeps stating that she has a partner/ boyfriend, and that she cannot stay at her mothers as she is in danger, and has things lined up. I can see through her activity on social media, that she is still lashing out in any direction she can, because her whipping boy is on the shelf. I can see she is still struggling with a millstone of negative emotions around her neck. She still seems so upset, and I don't think she is opening up to anyone in a capacity that will help her.

She is distancing herself from the past.

I think it would be helpful if you do the same.  

She is not going to want to come back to the past.

That's why its important for you to start moving forward to the future.

That will be more attractive to her, once she gets to baseline and can look in with a balanced eye.

What are 5 things you could improve to make a future homecoming more attractive?

To be honest, i'm finding it really hard to answer your question. Everything is in purgatory, so it is really hard to know what homecoming could even look like. For context, the space I was renting is expensive, and I can move in with my brother in the next town over and not pay rent--this would create an ideal scenario for money saving. However, my brother will in no way entertain my wife returning, and finding places to rent where we are at takes some time.

All of her things are packed with me in the furthest rural north west, and she is living the urban southwest.

There are many things I want to do for myself of course, that would either fulfill me or make me more attractive as a spouse. But, all of these things would more or less require me sacrificing the home we had, and praying that the promise of a different living situation thousands of miles of way would be ideal. A time scale of many months, to multiple years. It doesn't seem realistic to let that much time pass and have any expectation of reunion, my pragmatic mind and my faith are really contested here.

I don't know how to appear attractive to her, when we are so far apart, when she has no eyes or ears on me, and when I cannot currently offer her the support of my family. I do know how to take care of myself, and build upon myself, and love myself fully. I think what I struggled with then while in the dynamic of our relationship, and now, is that I don't want her to lose time to herself--I was always ok putting my game on pause to make sure she wasn't moving backwards. I'm worried about her putting herself through self destructive phases again, and I'm worried that she will isolate herself so that her only potential rescuer is another gamble. She lived on the streets multiple times, and had to harm herself grievously to survive, and that was all the result of a perception of her mother being her abuser, because her mother created a boundary for the self harm that occurred in their home. I'm worried that this arc could be far worse..

But, to attempt;

I would like to:
move in with my brother and save a meaningful amount of money
use the money saved to settle debts, taxes, etc
use the money saved to purchase a new car
use the increase in time to develop a serious gym regimen
use the increase in time to finish the dozens of books bought recently
use the increase in time to finish certificates for my career path
work on my business venture's art/ build portfolio and launch my online presence

But.. of course, these are all me centered things, and I won't have a home of my own to provide, if I make the initial step, which then should precipitate all that follows.

[Bowman]

I feel utterly violated.

While piecing together bread crumbs. I have found that in the start of July prior to all these events around the time of my birthday. My wife as talking to me how an old friend was trying to navigate a romantic situation while still living with her boyfriend, a romantic situation involving someone online. My wife asked me questions and advice, on how her friend should leave her situation and go be with this new interest.

She was referring to the person she left me for. I now have many details regarding who this man is. And, my wife is still with her mother at this point in time. I found out the friend who she stated was in the tryst, was actually advising her to not pursue this other person.

I feel so violated, my trust is so broken, my love and dedication absolutely taken for granted. I feel hollow.

[Skip]

I found out the friend who she stated was in the tryst, was actually advising her to not pursue this other person.

Can you restate this sentence?

my wife is still with her mother at this point in time.

So they haven't met face-to-face or spent any significant time together?

I feel so violated, my trust is so broken, my love and dedication absolutely taken for granted. I feel hollow.

So many of us have had times of realization in our lives when we find the unthinkable to be true. It takes all the wind from out sails... all is still and quiet... our reality is reset.

With all this out, wht are you thoughts going forward?

[Bowman]

Can you restate this sentence?

My wife told me the story that the person she is talking to online, was interested in her friend. I later learned that the friend who I thought was the subject of interest was actually advising my wife to not pursue anything with the person she is talking to online. My wife lied to me about her own romantic endeavors while stating they were her friends.

So they haven't met face-to-face or spent any significant time together?

No they have not face to face. And they began talking approximately two months ago.

So many of us have had times of realization in our lives when we find the unthinkable to be true. It takes all the wind from out sails... all is still and quiet... our reality is reset.

With all this out, wht are you thoughts going forward?

I want to convey to her how aggrieved I am, and her claiming the victim while having done what she did, and how our lives unfolded over five years, is an absurdity. I want to convey to her she is returning to a pattern of behavior that she described as having taken everything from her. I want to convey to her that she is moving towards danger, and a pattern that will ultimately stymie her healing and growth. The information I have on the person online, is that he is a scammer, and maybe a hacker, who spends most of his time harassing hapless folk or scamming folk. The claims he makes are tall tales, regarding his ability, he seems like a pathological liar. This person is also harassing and threatening me via my phone through burner numbers and social media through sock puppet accounts. From what I gather he was also who planted seeds of paranoia, my wife had never thought me to be an active danger, but she states that she cannot communicate with me because I am dangerous and will manipulate her. My wife's behavior dramatically shifted two months ago when she began mentioning this person being interested in her friend, the only explanation I can think of is she opened up to him, and he drove a wedge between her and I.

[Bowman]

Also.. I don't really know how to put this. I still love her very much, and I do not harbor resentment despite the pain. Whatever happens, I dont want her to harm herself slowly by eschewing self awareness and accountability.

I of course want to remain her husband and be that positive force, but if I cannot I at least don't want her to return to the pattern she exhibited in her teens that landed her on the streets destitute and in institutions. I have to imagine her brother feels the same as they got into a fight over her plans and her new alcoholism that emerged after talking to person online and I have to hope that her mother who she also lives with, is also aware and feels the same..

[kells76]

Thanks for filling in some context, that definitely helps.

I still love her very much, and I do not harbor resentment despite the pain.

I can picture that; it makes sense that you don't wish her ill and aren't hanging on to resentment.

If this is one goal:

I want to convey to her how aggrieved I am, and her claiming the victim while having done what she did, and how our lives unfolded over five years, is an absurdity. I want to convey to her she is returning to a pattern of behavior that she described as having taken everything from her. I want to convey to her that she is moving towards danger, and a pattern that will ultimately stymie her healing and growth.

and this is another goal:

I of course want to remain her husband and be that positive force, but if I cannot I at least don't want her to return to the pattern she exhibited in her teens that landed her on the streets destitute and in institutions. I have to imagine her brother feels the same as they got into a fight over her plans and her new alcoholism that emerged after talking to person online and I have to hope that her mother who she also lives with, is also aware and feels the same..

I wonder if there's a more effective or constructive way to have both of those goals.

What I mean by that is -- it might be the case that if you want to remain in the marriage, then (a) it might help to consider it a "special emotional needs" marriage with some pretty significant limitations, where "spontaneously expressing your negative feelings" might not be constructive. A "special emotional needs" marriage can need a lot more structure around you expressing your feelings and getting your needs met. It is possible that she does not (at the moment) have what it takes to hear about your grievances -- and, if you choose to stay married she may always be limited in that way. Food for thought.

And (b), if you choose to stay married, you may, by virtue of being her husband, not be in an appropriate role to be the person in her life to positively move her towards healing. There is a reason therapists generally don't have family members as clients -- there can be something safe and healing about a truly neutral relationship (not that it replaces a spouse, but it's a different role). I wonder -- if staying married and having a "workable enough" marriage costed you backing away from "coaching her healing", if that would be worth it?

Again, just some food for thought as you're in a holding pattern. It can't be easy, I know.

[Bowman]

What I mean by that is -- it might be the case that if you want to remain in the marriage, then (a) it might help to consider it a "special emotional needs" marriage with some pretty significant limitations, where "spontaneously expressing your negative feelings" might not be constructive. A "special emotional needs" marriage can need a lot more structure around you expressing your feelings and getting your needs met. It is possible that she does not (at the moment) have what it takes to hear about your grievances -- and, if you choose to stay married she may always be limited in that way. Food for thought.

After about two years navigating the winding path of life with her, I had a very good idea as to how my positive and negative emotions would affect her general emotional state and how she perceived events in the moment with heightened emotions. We went through a lot of changes, many of them stressful, and I kept in mind her diagnosis and described experiences—I came to understand how critical my patience and stoicism would be in our relationship. I confided in two close friends and my brother throughout the relationship, as I had realized early on only certain conflicts can be resolved effectively and that I will need to seek consolation and confidence from people from outside the relationship to find my emotional peace. Those friends and my brother have been what kept me together then and now, having accurate witnesses to events of our lives to dispute not only the gaslighting conducted on me but the mass gaslighting that is occurring among our friends and social media. I felt like I was conducting myself in a way as you described, and years ago I accepted that conducting myself like that was necessary for her to be ok, but it appears a single moment can upend all that which was delicately balanced.

And (b), if you choose to stay married, you may, by virtue of being her husband, not be in an appropriate role to be the person in her life to positively move her towards healing. There is a reason therapists generally don't have family members as clients -- there can be something safe and healing about a truly neutral relationship (not that it replaces a spouse, but it's a different role). I wonder -- if staying married and having a "workable enough" marriage costed you backing away from "coaching her healing", if that would be worth it?

Also after about two years, my wife and I started looking at therapeutic services. From what I recall initially it was to apply for state disability assistance, but then we started addressing many of her health care concerns, as she wasn’t used to someone validating her needs and not withholding care regarding her as a hypochondriac. After that first enrollment, having a physician and a therapist was always a priority to us for her. It was critical that she had her physical ailments and emotional ailments validated and addressed by people other than me, after we kept in that pattern she had long successful bouts with therapists where she relayed to me that she graduated out of care, also she would return on occasion when difficult moments arose, and she did so on her own accord. In addition to therapeutic services, I made sure to encourage her to remain in contact with friends and family when she tried to push them away when stressed or feeling betrayed. And, I made sure we saw friends regularly despite her desire to be reclusive. I felt like I made sure she had available to her resources to rely outside of myself in an emotional capacity.


As a response, it is worth it, absolutely without question. I always felt like it was, even in times of difficulty and abandonment. I only saw her pain and struggle when times were difficult and resolution was not at hand, it was always worth it to keep trying and do better. And, because of that resolve I knew I needed to seek help outside of myself both for myself and for her, and made certain we had that available.

I just don't know how to get her to see my efforts accurately, as it is relayed to me; she is claiming I bound her to her diagnosis and wanted to keep her bound to a therapist and bound to me as a dependent because of her mental illness. When truly all throughout our time together she was candid about her struggles and we approached them pragmatically, with me always taking the back seat when it came to healthcare decisions like therapy enrollment, making sure that she was choosing her care and being autonomous. It has also been relayed to me that; she also claims that her BPD and DID diagnosis are disputed and not accurate, despite that not being the case, and her never claiming that before.

[Skip]

If you want to try to resolve your separation you have to listen to her.

This is what she is saying...

... she is claiming I bound her to her diagnosis and wanted to keep her bound to a therapist and bound to me as a dependent because of her mental illness. ..//.. It has also been relayed to me that; she also claims that her BPD and DID diagnosis are disputed and not accurate, despite that not being the case, and her never claiming that before.

And everything you say you want to tell her (above) could be interpreted as supporting her accusations.

I'm not saying her accusations are accurate. I am saying that the worst thing you could say to her now is that she needs to come home to get under your wing of mental health caretaking.

1. Do you see why this would be disastrous?

2. If she feels this way, do you see why she would be drawn to someone who says, "You may have some struggles, but I don't think you're mentally ill"?

3. If this is the case, what would she want to hear from you?.

[PeteWitsend]

...

2. If she feels this way, do you see why she would be drawn to someone who says, "You may have some struggles, but I don't think you're mentally ill"?

...

This is a good point.  I was thinking along the lines of the "drama triangle" stuff; she was probably reaching out to find a "white knight" to rescue her, and this guy just happened to be in the right place at the right time (for her).  Could have easily been someone else if he wasn't available or had the sense not to get involved.  

I also wouldn't take any of this personally, or view the fact that a pwBPD jumped immediately into another relationship as a sign of a personal failing.  @https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=3059075.0, you have to be comfortable and confident in your own judgment and experience here, and not let other people's judgment affect you.  Other people will say what they will, but they weren't in between the two of you, and don't know what happened.  

[Bowman]

1. Do you see why this would be disastrous?

Absolutely, it would in effect remove the autonomy from the actions she has taken by pinning them on the disorder, which is likely not how she perceives her sense of self and her actions. It would be grossly invalidating to suggest her decisions are not her own, that she acts without knowledge as to why she acts that way.

2. If she feels this way, do you see why she would be drawn to someone who says, "You may have some struggles, but I don't think you're mentally ill"?

Certainly, that statement with that perspective would be validating in the same way the prior question would be invalidating, it places more autonomy on the individual and their actions. It aligns the perception of self and narrative of self.

3. If this is the case, what would she want to hear from you?.

I am uncertain, but I feel that it would be something like; that I understand her decisions and why she felt that she needed to act in that way.

[Bowman]

I also wouldn't take any of this personally, or view the fact that a pwBPD jumped immediately into another relationship as a sign of a personal failing.  @Bowman, you have to be comfortable and confident in your own judgment and experience here, and not let other people's judgment affect you.  Other people will say what they will, but they weren't in between the two of you, and don't know what happened.  

I appreciate this, its something my brother keeps relaying to me. He keeps telling me to not let the optimist in me die, to not let my agape diminish, to not allow for myself to become jaded and withdrawn. That the accusations levied at me are not a reflection of me. It is difficult as the accusations are all very public, and aside from one close friend no one has contested them publicly or in private. I think my difficulty there is; I understand my Wife's sentiments and how she conveyed them, but no one though to question anything? Despite all the goodwill I put out? I can understand, my wife is incredibly charming and compelling--but I thought my rapport would have accounted for something in the face of such wild lies.

I wish I knew I was in the drama triangle when it started. I was very disturbed by her sudden desire for alcohol and her intense social withdrawal at home and fixation on her phone, I thought she was stressed about attending my big family event, but in reality, she found this 'white knight', and was lying to me.

[Skip]

... it places more autonomy on the individual and their actions. It aligns the perception of self and narrative of self.

Very insightful. Yes.

So what is her perception of self, narrative of self. Who does she want to be?

There has been a lot of focus on her frailty, weaknesses, incapabilities. And there were outside feelings of failure... work, financial. And the failing to you.

However helpful it was to be an active participant in her mental health struggles, an ounce of that helpfulness may have been far better than a pound.

This can be a very hard thing to see... at some point our helping of others can slip into that realm of redefining them. And some of us are driven to go too far because it becomes part of our narrative of the goodness of ourselves. This is the essence of codependency that is often misunderstood.

This is probably hard to read, but you are a very thoughtful guy and I think you know I'm trying to help your family. You can look back at the troubled time and rethink how you would go forward differently.

Does this makes sense?

All this is changeable.

Skip

PS: There was serious betrayal on her part on these last months, I'm not implying that you are at fault or deserved that or the pain you are feeling about how this has played out. It's awful and you need to decide if you can forgive that.

[Bowman]

So what is her perception of self, narrative of self. Who does she want to be?

What a question, so many ways to answer. First and foremost, what she wants to be more than anything is happy and healthy, she does not want to be a slave to her past or disorder—this was the over-arching sentiment she conveyed as we seriously pursued mental health care and throughout our entirety together. She also wants to be a singer and write songs and play guitar, she wants to be a mother, she wants to be a pen tester and a hacker, she wants to be a cosplayer and a trend setter, she wants to be an anime figure painter, she wants to be fluent in Japanese, she wants to make miniature food replicas for restaurants, she wants to be so many things.
Her perception of self is generally a negative one, full of self-doubt, malaise and ennui. At times of stress and uncertainty her perception of self flips to a toxically confident and outwardly denigrating one, kind of like the insecure inversion of her baseline perception, a sense of self where she is imperiously correct and her vengeance well deserved. On good days however, her perception of self is very sated, on our good days at home she was very content with simple things and her life, happy to just have morning expresso and watch the chickadees flutter about our feeders. I know all that I post here has been terribly negative, but we had a lot of good calm days, it filled me with hope having eliminating the chaos in her life, and see her happy to simply bird watch, it was quite a marvel, a transformation.
Her narrative is very much that of a victim, victimized from childhood. Which, I think there is a lot of merit with respect to her relationship with her mother in childhood and her mother’s romantic endeavors and how that affected my wife. But, many things changed as she went into adolescence and adulthood, people changed, but she couldn’t see it I think. She was also victimized by her relationships romantic and sexual, which is certainly accurate, she was predated on despite her promiscuity creating the scenarios. So, in reality and in her perception, she is most often a victim. I think the victim narrative does come in tandem with a survivor narrative. When my wife is confident she will flip to a survivor narrative, and draw strength from that which was depressing her earlier when she regarded her self a victim.

This can be a very hard thing to see... at some point our helping of others can slip into that realm of redefining them. And some of us are driven to go too far because it becomes part of our narrative of the goodness of ourselves. This is the essence of codependency that is often misunderstood.

Does this makes sense?

Most certainly it makes sense. Like I had stated earlier, I’m fairly certain around the time of her job loss I became acclimated to increased ability to tackle life’s challenges, and forgot how severe and how far a backslide could go, I think it all caught me off guard, so much so it resulted in her actually assaulting me. I am certain she felt that she was being redefined by my persistence in her having mental and physical health care available, that I maintained a focus on her seeking emotional support from sources professional outside of me in our relationship. I conveyed to her often that she is not defined by her struggle or how she struggled in the past, that there are no benchmarks, no final judgements, its all just a journey. I find it hard to imagine where I overstepped exactly. I think there is clearly a pattern of over functioning, as I more or less carried the team the entire five years, with her working randomly and infrequently covering bills, but if I hadn’t, we would have been destitute. Can over function be unfortunately unavoidable?

PS: There was serious betrayal on her part on these last months, I'm not implying that you are at fault or deserved that or the pain you are feeling about how this has played out. It's awful and you need to decide if you can forgive that.

I appreciate you stating this, and I appreciate your guidance. Your guidance has been uncompromising in the sense that it has helped me self-reflect and dig deeper into my experience. I can of course forgive everything, I have even stated as much to my wife. What I cannot forgive is this other person, it is entirely unforgivable to me to invade a relationship in this way, let alone denigrate me on behalf of my wife in public online spaces.


As an aside, I still don’t know how to respond to the harassment. All of the statements being levied at me are the same absurd accusations my wife levies at me, or ridiculous insults based on public images of me. Its making me really angry and filling me with spite. I have still been coordinating with my wife’s mother to freight her belongings, its been arduous and expensive because I’m in a rural spot, and we have yet to find a feasible method. But, my wife regards my inaction as me being withholding and vindictive, me holding onto her things like there is a hope it would get her to go back to me, which is obnoxious.

[Skip]

I am certain she felt that she was being redefined by my persistence in her having mental and physical health care available, that I maintained a focus on her seeking emotional support from sources professional outside of me in our relationship. I conveyed to her often that she is not defined by her struggle or how she struggled in the past, that there are no benchmarks, no final judgements, its all just a journey.

There is such a fine line between helpful and invalidating. Just a simple thing... if she felt you did something wrong and she felt you were saying (of believed) her perception is wrong because she mentally ill...

Have you watched this video? This was eye opening for me.
https://www.bpdfamily.com/content/communication-skills-dont-be-invalidating

As an aside, I still don’t know how to respond to the harassment. All of the statements being levied at me are the same absurd accusations my wife levies at me, or ridiculous insults based on public images of me. Its making me really angry and filling me with spite. 

I don't know if you can

I have still been coordinating with my wife’s mother to freight her belongings, its been arduous and expensive because I’m in a rural spot, and we have yet to find a feasible method. But, my wife regards my inaction as me being withholding and vindictive, me holding onto her things like there is a hope it would get her to go back to me, which is obnoxious.

I don't think it is all your responsibility to do all this... especially if she is sniping.  Is everything boxed and ready to go?  If so, send a picture and and a description of boxes (weight and size) and tell her that you will take it to a local shipping point of her choice (mail station, UPS, USPS) or be available for someone to pick it up, or put it in storage and send her the contract and key (and pay 2 months rent or pay 1/2 or the shipping costs) and put the ball in her court. Put this all in writing in a "brief, friendly, informative, firm" format and send by email and USPS.

[Bowman]

There is such a fine line between helpful and invalidating. Just a simple thing... if she felt you did something wrong and she felt you were saying (of believed) her perception is wrong because she mentally ill...

Have you watched this video? This was eye opening for me.
https://www.bpdfamily.com/content/communication-skills-dont-be-invalidating

   I have watched the video, I found it very useful and insightful as well. I suppose its going to be hard to parse my memory and discern what it would have been exactly, but I’m certain that my focus on her mental wellness and her having resources on hand for mental health care was likely seen as invalidating at times, with respect to her sense of progress and autonomy. It’s tragic, it will be hard to reconcile if my actions ultimately have her stray from recovery, if we could only be afforded more grace.

I don't know if you can

I don't think it is all your responsibility to do all this... especially if she is sniping.  Is everything boxed and ready to go?  If so, send a picture and and a description of boxes (weight and size) and tell her that you will take it to a local shipping point of her choice (mail station, UPS, USPS) or be available for someone to pick it up, or put it in storage and send her the contract and key (and pay 2 months rent or pay 1/2 or the shipping costs) and put the ball in her court. Put this all in writing in a "brief, friendly, informative, firm" format and send by email and USPS.

So due to the continued harassment, over the course of this weekend. I sent my wife a message outlining a boundary. I stated that if the harassment continues the boxes will be left in the house we rent and that she will have to coordinate with the landlord to retrieve the items. I stated she had abandoned the lease, her things and me, with no plan or foreknowledge, and I have done all that I could despite the how things unfolded and how I have been treated. I have already packed everything and had it prepared, and I am more than willing to coordinate if I do not have to front the entirety costs, however, I have decided I’m not ok just relenting everything at every step. Unfortunately the only chip I have is being the steward of the possessions, and I cannot have this campaign of harassment continue, I have clearly been doxed to antagonistic individuals. What broke me and had me change this perspective, is the other male in the picture is gloating that he will pay for the divorce and file it, so I feel like if he can do that and post on my public facing accounts gloating about how, he can pay a few grand to ship a few palettes cross country. I feel spiteful, but I also feel like I have done so much and gone so far beyond where most would ever go..

[kells76]

Hey... just want to share that I understand how difficult this is:

As an aside, I still don’t know how to respond to the harassment. All of the statements being levied at me are the same absurd accusations my wife levies at me, or ridiculous insults based on public images of me. Its making me really angry and filling me with spite.

My H's kids' mom and stepdad have said some very bad things about him to community members, and have supported my H's sister (who has many BPD-type traits) when she made a youtube video falsely accusing H of abusing her. This kind of stuff is nearly intolerable to endure. We can feel helpless and enraged at the same time. It can feel like it's breaking you. So hard.

its going to be hard to parse my memory and discern what it would have been exactly, but I’m certain that my focus on her mental wellness and her having resources on hand for mental health care was likely seen as invalidating at times, with respect to her sense of progress and autonomy. It’s tragic, it will be hard to reconcile if my actions ultimately have her stray from recovery, if we could only be afforded more grace.

When we look back at a relationship and truly see the areas where we failed, we're really in a crucible. What we do with that won't necessarily guarantee saving that relationship -- though it is possible. It will mean we learn if or how we can live with the knowledge that we are limited and hurtful human beings, just like everyone else. It's a hard knowledge to sit with, and how we sit with it (or if we run from it) will impact whether our next relationships sink or float. Sitting with the pain gives your current relationship a chance (again, no guarantees). Running from the pain sinks it and any future relationship.

So due to the continued harassment, over the course of this weekend. I sent my wife a message outlining a boundary. I stated that if the harassment continues the boxes will be left in the house we rent and that she will have to coordinate with the landlord to retrieve the items. I stated she had abandoned the lease, her things and me, with no plan or foreknowledge, and I have done all that I could despite the how things unfolded and how I have been treated. I have already packed everything and had it prepared, and I am more than willing to coordinate if I do not have to front the entirety costs, however, I have decided I’m not ok just relenting everything at every step. Unfortunately the only chip I have is being the steward of the possessions, and I cannot have this campaign of harassment continue, I have clearly been doxed to antagonistic individuals.

What's your goal?

What broke me and had me change this perspective, is the other male in the picture is gloating that he will pay for the divorce and file it, so I feel like if he can do that and post on my public facing accounts gloating about how, he can pay a few grand to ship a few palettes cross country. I feel spiteful, but I also feel like I have done so much and gone so far beyond where most would ever go..

Let's get grounded and centered. Balance thoughts and feelings. Can he really do that? Or is that a fear/feeling.

I strongly suspect that unrelated third parties cannot file for the end of another marriage. If they could then can you imagine how many people would be filing to break up celebrity marriages.

If you mean: she will fill out all the forms and he will put them in the mail, yes, sure, anyone can mail letters for anyone.

Let's get clear on what the fear is and what the reality is.

[Bowman]

When we look back at a relationship and truly see the areas where we failed, we're really in a crucible. What we do with that won't necessarily guarantee saving that relationship -- though it is possible. It will mean we learn if or how we can live with the knowledge that we are limited and hurtful human beings, just like everyone else. It's a hard knowledge to sit with, and how we sit with it (or if we run from it) will impact whether our next relationships sink or float. Sitting with the pain gives your current relationship a chance (again, no guarantees). Running from the pain sinks it and any future relationship.

I’m certainly sitting with the pain; I feel quite steeped in it honestly. I used to be a person who ran, and who didn’t really have knowledge I was running. I’m unsure how anything can be saved, and I don’t think I’m spending too much time on that notion anymore, I only want the next steps forward in whichever direction to be confident and correct. Correct for me and those dependent on me. Above all, I don’t want my interactions with my wife to take her off course from her actualization, her wellness is the priority in our interactions—I just cannot seem to ignore how much damage I am taking on at this point while I prioritize that.

What's your goal?

I’m concerned that the harassment will escalate. My wife’s brother has conveyed extreme concern for my well being physical and otherwise. I feel like my goal is to curtail this harassment and ideally illustrate I have been gracious in the face of cruelty to hopefully encourage an acknowledgement of my wife’s actions and their impact. Its probably inappropriate to assume anything I do will encourage self-reflection. I guess it’s kind of a flight of fancy, but I’m not sure what to do. I guess, also my goal is to not be burdened financially or emotionally with the fallout from actions that were not mine.

Let's get grounded and centered. Balance thoughts and feelings. Can he really do that? Or is that a fear/feeling.
I strongly suspect that unrelated third parties cannot file for the end of another marriage. If they could then can you imagine how many people would be filing to break up celebrity marriages.
If you mean: she will fill out all the forms and he will put them in the mail, yes, sure, anyone can mail letters for anyone.
Let's get clear on what the fear is and what the reality is.

I don’t think he or my wife understands that I did file an annulment to make the end quick, but it wasn’t valid by the court to do so, I found out by filing the annulment. I don’t think they understand that my wife and I will have to present our taxes, finances, debts, etc before the courts—I say this as I know my wife hasn’t filed taxes in the six years, we have been together and she has a massive pile of medical debt. I don’t think they understand that after all the documents are filed there is a 90-day waiting period to then do a final submission for the divorce. I gave my wife all the aforementioned information and the contact for the court clerk over a month ago, but the other male is just now claiming he will get all this going to solidify their relationship.

   In all honesty, I feel like I’m interacting with two teenagers. Two kids trying to be vindictive on the internet to an authority figure, it’s so surreal. Two adults who haven’t really had to make it on their own, lashing out in whatever direction catches their interest in that moment. It’s been bewildering, so all I have is sensation and speculation.

My fear is certainly that my actions are being grossly misinterpreted, that’s what my primary fear has been for six years, a clearly well-founded fear. I think the reality is, is that my wife is emotionally overwhelmed and appears to be stuck in a phase of inaction, and her current interest is extremely immature and antagonistic, and is kind of loosely under my wife’s direction as to what to do.

[Bowman]

If you mean: she will fill out all the forms and he will put them in the mail, yes, sure, anyone can mail letters for anyone.

Let's get clear on what the fear is and what the reality is.

Also, I think its worth noting, he claims he lives in Canada. And, my wife is is a US citizen with no passport. Not sure how any of that would work given that context also.. But, from all the secondary information I have, he appears to be a boaster and a fibber, no idea what's real or accurate. Regardless of where he actually is, he is not near where she is, and face to face doesn't seem possible.

Also, I feel like if a person had a car or means for a plane ticket, and was this serious about breaking up a relationship, meeting face to face would have happened already? The mystery and seeming duplicity has me concerned for my wife, the personalities involved seem extremely volatile.

This internet relationship my wife got into doesn't really make sense, given the set of information i'm relying on.

[ForeverDad]

Perhaps a perspective to ask yourself, there's not much you can do about this if your spouse isn't listening to you.  Yes, you can fret, but that's more about you than her.  After all, she is an adult.

I'm reminded of past comments made here that may apply.  It seems she (or whomever) is exposing you to a lot of negative interactions.  That can tie us up in knots but the reality is we're somewhat powerless to do anything about it.  We call it negative engagement.  It can feel worse than no contact at all.

[Bowman]

Perhaps a perspective to ask yourself, there's not much you can do about this if your spouse isn't listening to you.  Yes, you can fret, but that's more about you than her.  After all, she is an adult.

I'm reminded of past comments made here that may apply.  It seems she (or whomever) is exposing you to a lot of negative interactions.  That can tie us up in knots but the reality is we're somewhat powerless to do anything about it.  We call it negative engagement.  It can feel worse than no contact at all.

I agree I do need to appreciate my position here and acknowledge that I really have no influence any more, and that my concern is largely my own.

And, I would agree, she is an adult. However, she doesn't have everything necessary to take care of herself entirely autonomously. She will likely be dependent on someone until she develops a career or at least a consistent work history. My concern arises in that, the person she is trying to get to is in a place where she has no friends or family who could care for her when things go awry. That, the person she is going to, to my knowledge does not have a job, owns guns, and is also characterized as mentally ill by the state--and is in a different country. That, her mother stated she wont keep her from leaving, citing natural consequences--my concern in that being; the last time my wife left her mother's care as a teenager, she spent a long time homeless.

I would have given up the ghost immediately if this was just a case of her wanting to leave me, my concern is her violent and sudden 180 with respect to her feelings towards me coupled with what seems like revenge fantasies being validated by another person. Especially when the background context of our lives prior to the split was me helping her work on a career path so she could potentially take care of herself without dependency on others.

All I can think of is the Black Dog Serenade, my teeth are sunk too deep. I taste too much blood, and sense too much danger. Unsure how to let go.

[Skip]

I suspect that looking back on this in six months she will have realized that she blew up her life after losing her job and that the Canadian white knight was a mirage in the desert.

I know its hard, but its probably best that you not participate in her meltdown - smart on a lot of levels. Put out the vibe that you are not affected by all of this - don't trying to solve it, or save her from herself - it will make it worse.

I know this will be hard. It's your wife. But she is she has gone on an emotional bender and is rebelling against you like a rebellious child against a parent. There is nothing you can do to redirect this. The more you show your wounds or want to be heard or want to help, the more of a target you become.

Hurting you is fueling them. Don't give them the fuel.

Easy for me to say.

It's hard to say where she will land when the tornado is over.

[Bowman]

I suspect that looking back on this in six months she will have realized that she blew up her life after losing her job and that the Canadian white knight was a mirage in the desert.

Do you think it is possible for someone who travels through emotional events in this way, to reflect like this? It is certainly a hope of mine that she will find clarity like that.

I know its hard, but its probably best that you not participate in her meltdown - smart on a lot of levels. Put out the vibe that you are not affected by all of this - don't trying to solve it, or save her from herself - it will make it worse.

I wish I responded to antagonism better, its very hard for me to not challenge out right lies, especially when they are spammed to my public accounts. After about a ten message exchange on twitter, I realized I was dealing with a boy who knows nothing about how the world works or how long term stable adult relationships work. I felt foolish, like arguing with a child on the finer points of resume writing or something. That was when I sent the message addressing the harassment to my wife, I realized if I didn’t do something like that, I was just going to allow myself to keep getting snookered, I made myself stick to my own boundary.

I know this will be hard. It's your wife. But she is she has gone on an emotional bender and is rebelling against you like a rebellious child against a parent. There is nothing you can do to redirect this. The more you show your wounds or want to be heard or want to help, the more of a target you become.

I kept to this after I was done with my vague and cathartic music and poetry posting on social media, I realized I was just miserating to keep myself company in the online spaces I used to have my wife’s company. Much to my brother’s satisfaction, I’m returning to my old habits and doing cool/ fun stuff again, and making public what makes sense, to provide that illustration that I haven’t been knocked down. Got back into the groove of our diorama/ art business, nearing completion on our most complicated build. And, despite the 5 hour round trip drive, made it out to a dance night in the big city and made some nightlife contacts to potentially get back into music.

Hurting you is fueling them. Don't give them the fuel.

   Wish I understood this behavior better, I don’t get the desire to increase suffering. As a severely heartbroken man of now two divorces, and a person who once was a groomed and neglected child, I cannot fathom dealing with pain in this way. The futility of words is profound in the face of such projected pain. The tragedy of this gives me resolve to be better. I hope I can be a better salve when its my turn to be a giving care once again..

[Bowman]

As an update;

I am still being stalked, but I haven't received unwanted messages in about a week.

My brother is driving a large truck-load of my wife's possessions to the airport three hours away to be air freighted at my family's expense, a little later today.

I did go through the things my wife packed to retrieve my possessions which she knew to be sentimental. I also retrieved a couple of the gifts she gave me over the years, not all but the ones that really brought me joy and made me feel her love, I was lucky enough to find a short birthday note in one of the VHS cases.

I also packed a special box, with all the dried flowers of all the times I gave her flowers, that I kept around our house that she adored. And, all the flower crowns I made for her on holidays. And, the special back patch she wore when we first met, carrying the name she went by when our story started. And, the officially licensed Evangelion wedding ring that pairs with the one I am still wearing. And, one of the few surviving photobooth photos, that we always took the time to take, as she never had photos growing up or with other partners. I suppose this gesture was more for my closure, but I do hope she sees how much someone can care, the depth and breadth of what that love that can be.


I do fear a little bit she will be upset with me reclaiming my things, but I do also suspect that because she packed so little and took the time to pack things that were specifically sentimental to me--that she wanted that provocation to occur, or maybe she wanted to hold onto it to give it back at a later time and reconnect. I won't know until I traverse the present into the future, but what I do know is I will always love her, and I will always be willing to draw boundaries and move into the future with her again if she so wishes. I now feel a great void in me like she must feel so constantly, but i'm thankful for the memories, and I dearly hope that our journey together helped her ultimately on the one she is now taking alone.