DAD with 24 years married with 2 younger kids

[meNOTme]

 
Hello,
My first post into this community. I saw this on a reddit forum and decided to check it out.
I've been married for 24 years (at 21) with someone 9 years older then me and along the marriage I was feeling like I was not doing enough. Trying to be a good husband and "pleasing" my wife. Little did I know that she was manipulating me.
There is A LOT of things that have been happening, but the financial situation has really been tough with her.
Also, worrying if I get her upset, she will take it out on the kids. "Walking on eggshells".
I've been struggling with my mental health and have sought out a therapist for about 5 months now. I've educated myself about covert narcissists, and Borderline Personality Disorder. A lot of the traits seem to match my spouse to the T!!
I'm in a point in my life where I want to leave and take my kids with me. I feel that my wife is on a smear campaign involving her insinuating "inappropriate" time with my daughter when we watch a movie together in my room or her room.
I LOVE my kids and it seems to affect her that I show them unconditional love and give them quality time.
FOR A LONG TIME I FELT THAT I WAS THE PROBLEM BUT KNOW THAT SHE HAS A MENTAL CONDITION THAT SHE REFUSES TO ACKNOWLEDGE.
Just wanted to reach out to DADS experiencing the same and maybe some advise on how to proceed with Divorcing a Covert Narcissist.  

[meNOTme]

 
In a long term marriage and wife has undiagnosed BPD or NPD.
I have a 2nd home that I want to move into and take my kids but afraid that the wife will go livid and go and take them. I don't want that trauma for my kids and need to turn the page in my life with my kids. Financially drained due to her financial decisions.
If this sound like something you experienced, please share.

[EyesUp]

Welcome - You'll find a community of people with shared experience here.  Please know that you're not alone.

I've been divorced from my uN/BPDxw since early '22.  We were married for almost 15 years, and we went through a few cycles for 10 years prior.  We've got three kids, D9, D13, and D16.

The marriage had a number of "classic" BPD features:  caretaking and avoidance (me)... depression, anxiety, impulsive spending, and infidelity (her). 

When it finally became clear to me to that I was the only thing in my power to change, I gained the power to withdraw a bit - to become less reactive, less engaged.  As I shopped for an attorney and practiced the skills I learned here:  "do not JADE" (Justify, Argue, Defend, Explain) and "BIFF" (Brief, Informative, Friendly, Fair), my then-wife perceived a change...  I stopped capitulating to everything, but also didn't engage in lengthy discussions about it. 

I had already retained an attorney and started the filing process with all financial disclosures and documents ready.  I did not disclose this to my wife, as I was not sure how she would react - probably not well.  She ended up responding to the perceived change by filing electronically without any documents - her electronic complaint was received first...   In the end, it was a blessing. 

For all the talk of first mover advantage in divorce, in my state it boils down to who gets to make the closing argument in a contested process. In the BPD dynamic, I think it was to our mutual benefit that my ex was able to assert her agency and never distracted by a sense of rejection. I never ended up telling her that I filed... 

The divorce process took about 10 months.  She filed a contested / at fault divorce, but we literally settled at the courthouse just prior to the first pre-trial hearing. The judge was only too happy to take a case of the docket, when it was our turn to present the agreement, we were done in 10 minutes...

My ex wanted to be the primary parent, retain sole occupancy of the house, all the retirement accounts, etc etc etc.  In the end we settled for 50-50 parenting time, I kept the house, and split most of the assets.  I kept most of the debt (accrued in part due to her inconsistent employment and very consistent spending...).  I was extremely fortunate - it doesn't usually go this way.

I learned a lot from reading BIFF, participating here, and seeing a good therapist throughout and after the divorce.  I gained a lot from reconnecting with friends and family, and spending more time doing things I've always loved - cycling, skiing, photography - rather than caretaking and walking on eggshells.  Self care is a big part of the process. 

I stayed focused on the kids and divorce process and didn't even think about dating until almost a year after the divorce. Of course my ex started dating less than a month after filing, while we were still cohabitating - GREAT!  I had more time with the kids - and more peace at home while she was away almost every weekend...

If your N/BPD is anything like mine, the smear campaign is already underway - not only with friends and mutual acquaintances, but possibly with your kids, their teachers, doctors - anyone, really.  Just remember: When she goes low, you go high. Rise above. Don't engage.

I was encouraged by how many people in our shared community eventually confided in me - often in subtle ways - that they could see through the narrative.  Some people won't take sides - your kids' providers shouldn't, as they will likely need to continue to work with both of you.  The advice you'll often see here and elsewhere is:  Just be the best parent you can be. Notice I didn't write "dad" - I try to avoid all the gendered generalizations - this also helps to reduce any potential sign of partisanship when you're communicating with, well, anyone.

But first you've got to study up.  Getting a divorce can be a full time job, especially if it's a high conflict case.  Interview a bunch of attorneys.  Find out who has REAL experience in the courthouse where your divorce will take place.  Who knows the judges.  And who has experience with high conflict cases.  Let's face it:  divorce is usually conflict, so almost every attorney will claim to have experience with high conflict cases.  Interview attorneys by asking for an introduction call - not a consultation.  This way, that first :30 or :60 minute call is likely to be free.  When interviewing them, ask open-ended questions:  "tell me about a time you had to go to trial against someone with a suspected personality disorder - what happened?  how did you manage it?  what was the outcome?  have you ever represented someone with a suspected personality disorder?  what was that like?"  I'd avoid using prescriptive or diagnostic language unless you're a professional.  Also, in 2024, everyone thinks their stbx is a narcissist - so don't fall into that trap.  The court doesn't care if you're a sociopath unless you've committed a crime... the fact is: criminals often get parenting time, as long as the crime was not against the kids...  when selecting an attorney, you want a litigator, not a negotiator, i.e., someone who is prepared to go trial. Unfortunately, it's probably not in your best interest to work with an attorney who specializes in collaborative divorce or mediation... this approach doesn't work with high conflict personalities and usually racks up a large bill before converting back to a traditional litigation process - so may as well start with the right tool for the job:  a litigator.  You can identify a litigator by asking how often they go to trial, and what tactics they've used to successfully secure an agreement.  Litigators will generally want to share some war stories and victories...

Divorce is primarily an economic agreement about division of assets, alimony, and child support - know your state guidelines and focus on those points. Don't wait for your attorney to educate you - educate yourself.  Don't get dragged into an emotional sideshow over disparagement, insults, false claims, etc., unless it's absolutely necessary.  If you're atty is buying into this stuff, that's a sign that they are bilking billable time... 

If you're concerned about false allegations, DV, etc., get a voice recorder and keep it going 24/7 when in the presence of your stbx, or possibly in general - even when around your kids.  Even in a 2-party state, the recording may be the only thing that enables you to prove what you did or did not do or say.

I could write a book about this stuff, but it would mostly cover things that are already here - and in other books.  Others here have been down this path.  Fill us in on where you're at in the process - have you spoken with attorneys yet?  Is there anyone else in your community that you can confide in or who can offer advice?  Are you seeing a therapist?  How are your kids doing at this point?  What are your biggest concerns? 

Let us know how we can best support you.

Hang in there.

[ForeverDad]

I've been struggling with my mental health and have sought out a therapist for about 5 months now...
I'm in a point in my life where I want to leave and take my kids with me. I feel that my wife is on a smear campaign involving her insinuating "inappropriate" time with my daughter when we watch a movie together in my room or her room.

With a spouse who may at some point make "unsubstantiated" allegations of child abuse - you already have had insinuations or worse - it would be wise for you to make counseling a priority for your children too.  If you as an adult have struggled with the relationship, imagine how difficult it is for the kids.

Be aware that your spouse is highly likely to oppose counseling for the children.  Many therapists won't help if a parent opposes counseling.  But all is not lost.  (1) Schools have counselors who may assist/counsel the children on a limited basis.  (2) Or if the marital difficulties do reach a legal level where children's services or domestic court get involved, courts will likely side for the parent wanting counseling.  (My lawyer told me, "Courts love counseling.")

Are your children tweens or teens?  If so and if the marriage does fail, the children may get a voice on which parent they'd prefer to be the "primary parent".  My son was 11 years old when my ex wanted our son to have an "in camera" interview with the judge and GAL (Guardian ad Litem, child's lawyer).  Neither parent was present, the officials observed our son's demeanor rather than his words and it didn't result in ex's favor.

[ForeverDad]

Many here have "been there, experienced that".  Our community has an immense collective wisdom accumulated over the years.  In general, we have a sense of which strategies usually work and which are less likely to succeed.

Is the second home in the same school district?  If you end up in court seeking a temp court order (usually a divorce's very first hearing) the judge may not know anything about the family's environment and decide the kids should not change schools until the professionals surrounding the court can provide a report.

Until you get the temp order, life may be difficult because until there is a court order in hand, both parents have equal but undefined parental rights.  Yes, quite a disputed environment.

If you do separate and are awaiting a temp order, be careful to work toward a "less bad" order.  Sadly, with two seemingly bickering and opposed parents, courts aren't likely to try to fix all the issues.  (My temp order hearing was scheduled for a mere half hour!)  So prepare your list of issues and requests in priority order since you may not get to the end of your list.

[Outdorenthusiast]

Just wanted to reach out to DADS experiencing the same and maybe some advice on how to proceed with Divorcing a Covert Narcissist.  

Welcome!  Sorry that you have experienced this challenging situation.  Divorcing someone with a mental difficulty is challenging and not all lawyers or courts understand the real consequences of personality issues.  Usually they are master emotional manipulators, and excellent liars.  Documentation, recordings, event logging, and facts will be key.

The book “Splitting” - Bill Eddy, is a great “how to” book that will help a lot for your planning.  Some members have mentioned pro-actively reaching out to your local law enforcement and letting them know what is going on and what she is doing has helped them.

The #1 important thing is focusing on your kids.  Get them into family therapy, to meet, play, talk, introduce to the therapist.  This will be good for them to not have to talk to a “stranger” when things get really rough (they will).  Also to a judge - a therapist will show you have their needs at heart (bonus points).  Take them out for “daddy” dates to remove them from the toxic environment and be “normal.”  Listen to them, empathize and don’t bash your wife.  Your kids love their mom, and you should never tear her down in their eyes - it will backfire.

Prepare for things with your wife to get WAY worse before it gets better…

[awakened23]

Welcome - You'll find a community of people with shared experience here.  Please know that you're not alone.

I've been divorced from my uN/BPDxw since early '22.  We were married for almost 15 years, and we went through a few cycles for 10 years prior.  ...

This has to be one of the best posts I have read about getting ready to separate and going through the divorce process with a BPD.  Thank you so much EyesUp, this has brought tremendously clarity to me as I am getting ready to file.

One question, how important is the High Conflict experienced attorney?

I have interviewed lawyers and asked these questions. While I'm confident my attorney is good I don't have any direct information that he has dealt with a BPD opposite party before. Also another attorney I spoke to who knew a great deal about BPD simply suggested that when I am ready to file I should simply  patiently wait for and record a ragefest, and file for DV. I am not sure I want to take such a route as I feel strongly about giving one chance to settle amicably with my BPDw, for my own soul to not have regrets later.

[EyesUp]

Also another attorney I spoke to who knew a great deal about BPD simply suggested that when I am ready to file I should simply  patiently wait for and record a ragefest, and file for DV. I am not sure I want to take such a route as I feel strongly about giving one chance to settle amicably with my BPDw, for my own soul to not have regrets later.

@awakened...

Based on your comment, it's not clear if the atty who advises filing a DV specializes in managing conflict, or inciting it...   

If this is the advice they give a prospective client, I can only imagine what they might say in the heat of battle.  I may be reading too much here, but anyone who truly understands PDs and high conflict cases should be thinking in terms of assertive containment - especially if kids are involved.  A DV trap = scorched earth, maximum disruption, and likely maximum billable hours... seems self serving to the atty, not necessarily to the client.

Also, if this is the atty's MO, it's likely well known to the judge. That could cut either way.  "Surprise, surprise, look who is involved in another DV case... "

On the other hand, if your stbx is already dangerous/violent, possibly already known to the police, etc., then the atty may be reaching for a practical and expeditious solution in a questionable format...  Is that the situation?
 
My first question would be:  are you certain you live in a one-party state, meaning are you certain it's legal to record without the other party's consent?  If not, the suggestion is particularly egregious.

In my case, I live in a 2-party state - and I still had a voice recorder going 24/7 for the duration of cohabitation as a prophylactic measure where the recording, even if formally inadmissable, might be the only way to defend against a false DV claim.  I was concerned because my atty had regular conferences with opposing counsel, and at one point reported that OC mentioned that my then-stbx was considering a false DV claim against me to gain an advantage.  I had a go bag in the back of my car for months.  Lots of anxiety.  Apparently OC advised my stbx against any false DV claims, and I was fortunate my case never went in this direction.

Ultimately, you know your stbx best - my suggestion is to go with the atty that you feel most comfortable with, best able to communicate with efficiently and effectively, and finally: potentially best able to navigate this process in light of the specific circumstances and dynamics with your stbx.

Hope this makes sense.  Hang in there! 

[ForeverDad]

Regardless whether a one party or two party consent state, DV or abuse voids those privacy concerns.  Still, be careful that you don't purposely antagonize the other to trigger an incident.

I've been online here in peer support for many years.  The only times I recall the court taking action was not even a handful of times and only when the parents were recording the children.  The judges warned the parents to stop recording the kids.  Children should not become tools or caught between parents in adult matters.

[awakened23]

Thank you EyesUp and ForeverDad for your sound advice.  Being in my current situation I have a lot of self-doubt about my decision making and you have validated much of my own thoughts regarding how I should go about this. The attorney I ended up hiring (after consulting with a few) is more balanced and he is favoring my own inclination to settle amicably while being prepared to litigate if it becomes necessary at some point. There are a couple of  reasons for me not to press DV charges even though I have endured physical, emotional and verbal abuse for so many years - one is the reason you mentioned, not make this divorce a lawyers' PLEASE READ show and more importantly for my own conscience will not allow me to disrespect the 20 year marriage even though she made the choice to trash the relationship with her infidelity. I want to end this by being able to take as much of the good memories that I can.

[awakened23]

my suggestion is to go with the atty that you feel most comfortable with, best able to communicate with efficiently and effectively, and finally: potentially best able to navigate this process in light of the specific circumstances and dynamics with your stbx.

Thank you for this advice. After re-reading this I think the atty I have picked ticks these points the best out the ones that I interviewed. It gives me some reassurance I am doing this the right way. Keeping my fingers crossed and jitters manageable for now.