Seeking support/solidarity & help creating space

[Our abuse recovery guide]

Hello. I am new to the forum and BPD tendencies, and would greatly appreciate input. 2 Questions:

1) Does the following exchange seem about right to others experiencing BPD family members? It is so surreal and bizarre that it is still hard to understand what exactly is going on.

My SIL (not diagnosed) came into my husband’s family recently, and she was so excited to have me as a SIL until she wasn't... time after time she has been highly offended by me, intermixed with calling for emotional support, asking to double date, blithely chatting about motherhood and girl stuff. The offensiveness started with loosely relatable actions on my part that I first thought were maybe truly offensive (and I apologized for them), but each new offense seemed increasingly less connected to my actual words and deeds and more connected to her convictions about me.

After repeated events of her crying to my MIL about how hateful I am, and hurtful ranting texts at me where I could not even get a word in, I was able to reach out and talk to her. We agreed to go directly to each other if we are ever upset, and that we would talk on the phone (live 4 hours away) rather than text if there is an issue. But of course the next time she was offended, this time at a made-up action of mine, she ran to my MIL without telling me, and furiously texted me while refusing a phone call. I eventually told her I cannot have any more one-sided communication, and am only willing to speak on the phone. She sent more texts after that which I did not open.

Over a month later my MIL said she seemed fine and was asking how we are. I sent a typically priced birthday gift with my MIL for my nephew, and got a seething text from her about how I am cut off, they do not want anything from me, and they will be getting rid of the gift. I did not reply, so later she reiterated how I can NEVER see them again, that I do not get to decide to take a break from them because they are cutting me off permanently, I am pure EVIL, and that she feels sorry for my kids having a mother like me. I did not respond but screenshotted it for my MIL who finally agreed that I cannot have my family around her anymore. She said we could do holidays separately “until God works a miracle.”

2) They just moved next to my husband's parents- how can we create adequate space without losing everyone else we love?

I do not feel safe going to his parents’ house because I know she will just have to stop over for some reason. I am afraid of A) her saying something in front of my 7 and 8 year old children that is too cutting to ever unhear, or B) her physically attacking me. Extended family get-togethers seem impossible too, as she will be at all of them. I hate that this is exactly what she wants, and I hate to lose connection with the aunts and uncles we all know and love, but I cannot see any other option. Am I right on this?

[sweetlyblessed]

Hello. I am new to the forum and BPD tendencies, and would greatly appreciate input. 2 Questions:

1) Does the following exchange seem about right to others experiencing BPD family members? It is so surreal and bizarre that it is still hard to understand what exactly is going on.

My SIL (not diagnosed) came into my husband’s family recently, and she was so excited to have me as a SIL until she wasn't... time after time she has been highly offended by me, intermixed with calling for emotional support, asking to double date, blithely chatting about motherhood and girl stuff. The offensiveness started with loosely relatable actions on my part that I first thought were maybe truly offensive (and I apologized for them), but each new offense seemed increasingly less connected to my actual words and deeds and more connected to her convictions about me.

After repeated events of her crying to my MIL about how hateful I am, and hurtful ranting texts at me where I could not even get a word in, I was able to reach out and talk to her. We agreed to go directly to each other if we are ever upset, and that we would talk on the phone (live 4 hours away) rather than text if there is an issue. But of course the next time she was offended, this time at a made-up action of mine, she ran to my MIL without telling me, and furiously texted me while refusing a phone call. I eventually told her I cannot have any more one-sided communication, and am only willing to speak on the phone. She sent more texts after that which I did not open.

Over a month later my MIL said she seemed fine and was asking how we are. I sent a typically priced birthday gift with my MIL for my nephew, and got a seething text from her about how I am cut off, they do not want anything from me, and they will be getting rid of the gift. I did not reply, so later she reiterated how I can NEVER see them again, that I do not get to decide to take a break from them because they are cutting me off permanently, I am pure EVIL, and that she feels sorry for my kids having a mother like me. I did not respond but screenshotted it for my MIL who finally agreed that I cannot have my family around her anymore. She said we could do holidays separately “until God works a miracle.”

2) They just moved next to my husband's parents- how can we create adequate space without losing everyone else we love?

I do not feel safe going to his parents’ house because I know she will just have to stop over for some reason. I am afraid of A) her saying something in front of my 7 and 8 year old children that is too cutting to ever unhear, or B) her physically attacking me. Extended family get-togethers seem impossible too, as she will be at all of them. I hate that this is exactly what she wants, and I hate to lose connection with the aunts and uncles we all know and love, but I cannot see any other option. Am I right on this?

[Older sister]

OH goodness, how dreadful. Sounds like an uBPD SIL. Does your MIL have any suggestions? What does your husband think? In terms of family gatherings, can you get your husband on board to help you set physical and social boundaries. He needs to be sitting beside you at all times! If you are united, it will be harder for her to attack you at those extended family functions. Since she is new to your family, your husband may have to talk to his brother….not an easy thing to do.

[zachira]

It sounds just terrible how you SIL has treated you. Many members who post on this site including myself have experienced similar behaviors with our close family members with BPD. You are very lucky that your MIL is willing to do the holiday celebrations separately for each family.  What perhaps is most important to know is that people with BPD constantly test boundaries and the boundaries you set are for protecting yourself. Your fears of things getting worse are legitimate however there is hope in that you have the support of other key family members.

[CC43]

Hi Blessed,

What you describe sounds like classic BPD, from the love-hate seesaw, to the raging, unfair accusations, one-sided hate-texts, gift rejection and shunning.  Holidays and special events are especially tricky for pwBPD, because of the multiplicity of social interactions and chances for her to feel offended, perhaps by not being the center of attention.  Even the mere sight of others' happiness--such as when somebody receives a gift, or a compliment, or when they provide a joyful update--can trigger her, as she typically feels unhappy, inferior and insecure.  If family members are paying attention to you (or someone else) for even a second, then she can easily feel rejected, abandoned and/or jealous.  Even the sound of laughter could set her off--because she's upset that she's not happy too!  She might not understand that this is the source of her dissatisfaction, and she'll often turn around and invent a reason to be angry with you, to give her bad feelings an outlet.  If she's twisting facts into a bizarre story of how you wronged her, that's classic BPD.  If her accusations sound unfair and inappropriate, it's because they are!  She invented them to give an outlet to her feelings, which she can't identify, process or handle properly.  I call this an "adult tantrum."  Do you know what I find is the best thing for an adult tantrum?  An adult time out.

I think you're on the right track with your responses.  You could take her phone calls if you're available and mentally armored; otherwise, her calls can go to voicemail.  If she leaves a hostile message, I think it doesn't deserve a reply, and you just delete it.  Take it as a sign that your SIL is dysregulated at the moment, and she's not capable of having a logical conversation, let alone resolve any issues.  Ditto for the hostile texts--just delete.  You see, none of this is really about you.  You have basically established a boundary:  if your SIL is hostile or disrespectful, you withdraw silently.  You hang up, you leave the room, or you leave the premises if necessary.  I think that no explanation is necessary--silence is easiest.  Your SIL is probably like a Miranda warning--anything you say can and will be used against you.  I know her words are probably nasty and hurtful, but after a while, you might see that they are totally ridiculous.  Once you see that, the pain of them probably lessens.  You might even start to pity her.

Unfortunately, pwBPD tend to have very volatile relationships with loved ones.  But by the same token, other loved ones in the family might have been subject to the same sort of treatment, so they might have a pretty good idea of what is going on--if not right away, eventually.  If that's the case, your SIL might self-isolate in rage, and she might decline to join family gatherings completely.

From a practical standpoint, while your SIL is actively hostile towards you, you could try to stay away as much as possible.  Maybe you could invite just your MIL over to your place to socialize.  Maybe you let your husband interact with his brother one-on-one.   What I've generally done in my family is orchestrate multiple gatherings for holidays, for example a large gathering on the actual holiday and a separate, smaller meeting the day before or after, to accommodate just the pwBPD, to minimize the potential for blow-ups.  An invitation to the pwBPD might look like this:  "We're hosting Thanksgiving dinner this year at 3 PM for the whole family.  Our doors will be open all day, if you'd prefer to stop by for appetizers or dessert only.  Of course, we'll have plenty of leftovers, and you're welcome to drop by on Friday if you'd prefer that."  Then the choice is up to her.  If your SIL comes and has a blow up, if she's anything like the pwBPD in my life, she'll storm off in protest, and then you can get back to the festivities.  You could enlist the help of your husband to shield your kids at any sign of abuse.  He could stand up and say, "We don't allow that sort of yelling or language in our house, and so you'll have to stop immediately, or leave."  I'm just saying, I think it's easier to exert this sort of control when it's your own household.  If she has a total meltdown or becomes violent, you call the police.  If you are at your MIL's, then maybe you explain to her ahead of time, that you don't want to risk exposing your kids to abusive treatment, and so if there are any signs of that, you're going to exit.  I suspect she'll understand perfectly.

[Notwendy]

I think CC4 has some great ideas. I agree that maintaining relationships requires some adjustment. I don't think it's practical to go NC with one person who is connected to others that you do want to have a relationship with and it would be drastic go NC with all of them- and something you don't seem to want to do.

However, you will need boundaries. I stopped staying at my parents' house when I visited. This was both for me and for my BPD mother. It's her house and having someone stay there is disruptive to her, and increases her stress level. Staying in a hotel allows me to have some space and also she has some space too. I also found that shorter visits are easier to manage than longer ones.

There are two sides to this- your SIL may feel out of sorts around you but you too are also on high alert and it isn't comfortable for you. So a space boundary helps. Your MIL's house is a vulnerable situation. You don't feel secure. Your SIL may not be able to manage you being there and getting attention and so will come over to be included. The solution- having your in laws visit you works- you have one on one time with them and there won't be disruption. You may have to make some adjustments for your in laws to visit comfortably but the boundary is worth it.

Another option if you visit your in laws is to get your own Airbnb or hotel there and have them over to yours during the day for visits, if they aren't as able to travel. If there's a gathering where SIL is there too- you have a place to retreat to if necessary. I 100% agree with you protecting your children and having your own place to stay helps with that.

You could explain to your in laws but I didn't- simply saying it's more comfortable for us, the kids need their quiet time, or whatever- sometimes is enough.

I also like the idea of smaller family get togthers. Some large ones won't be avoidable- like weddings- at these, I tend to stay neutral and not emotional. If BPD mother acts out- then she does but in public where a lot of people will see that - she usually doesn't.

Your SIL said all these things in the moment but there's also a chance that she will go back on her statement to not speak to you. My BPD mother goes back and forth with people she knows like this too, and then comes around. Their emotions can change. For me, I stay neutral and not reactive. You stay still in the storm and let her emotions move but you keep a steady middle- with your boundaries. My choice is to stay neutral "grey rock". This kind of outburst can be described as a tantrum and also "emotional vomit" -pwBPD have difficulty handling their emotions. It's like when a child eats too much candy and gets a stomach ache. The then throw up and after that, they feel better. You don't- but for the person with BPD- the feelings are "out" now and they may feel better emotionally.

What your SIL says about you is more likely to be about her. I don't know why this is- maybe because you are both female- my BPD mother didn't like her SIL's on either side. She seems to feel threatened by them in some ways. I think her own self image felt threatened by them somehow. They didn't do anything to cause this. So as difficult as this is, not taking it personally can help how you feel.

[CC43]

Great tips, Notwendy.

Sometimes I think of family gatherings like traffic.  To avoid a crash, I engage in defensive driving.  If I see someone speeding (talking fast, talking louder, getting agitated), I try to steer clear.  I don't bother honking, so as not to incite road rage.  I literally make sure I have a ride (my own car, or my husband's), to give me the flexibility of a quick getaway if needed.  When things get tense, I'm usually the first one to pull over for a rest stop:  "I think I need some fresh air / I'll take the little ones out for a stroll / I'll run to the store for some ice cream.  Would anyone care to join me?"  Sometimes the physical separation and change of scenery can help dissipate some tension.  If I'm the hostess, I might enlist some help from my husband:  "Honey, we won't be eating for another couple hours, why don't you take your brother for a spin in the new car and maybe stop by the store and pick out a nice Cabernet?"

Generally speaking, in overnight situations where sensitive people are involved, I stay in a hotel, even if there might be a spare room available in the host's home.  I'll frame it by saying I don't want to inconvenience anyone.  I think that elderly parents and siblings/in-laws with kids surely appreciate the break from preparing an additional guest room, or sharing their cramped space all day and night.  My husband appreciates it too, because after a day of socializing, he can kick back and relax in the hotel.  We think this is completely normal, and it has certainly made some family gatherings more feasible.

All my best to you.

[sweetlyblessed]

Thank you for the suggestions Notwendy and CC43. An airBnB might be an option for us.

Two aspects I'm seeking thoughts/advice on:
1) my MIL is in MAJOR denial, like she has apologized to me for how horrible she's been, but is STILL attempting to work through and see things from her random nonsensical persecution mania... and she still is holding to the belief that eventually we can smooth things over with her and things can be fine. *I can NEVER feel safe or comfortable around her again. I already didn't and this kind of rage over literally nothing is unfathomably unstable to me.*

2) Can anyone speak to the topic of No Contact? I absolutely intend to stay connected to my husbands' parents but I don't know how to connect with the extended family when get togethers are with her present. I know my MIL needs to try to have a relationship with her, but do I have to do that as well if it is potentially threatening the wellbeing of my immediate family? My husband and his brother are not close at all, and every time he tries to reach out the brother is completely insincere to the point of lying, its always been that way. I would really love to never see her or talk to her/about her again. Even in the past get togethers have felt sickeningly uncomfortable to me, especially when a) my kids play with her kid... what might he repeat to my children about how his mom views me? 2) she talks to me or my children with passive aggressive ulterior motives... when my kids are too young to understand or handle that appropriately.

We have always stayed with my MIL, the kids love it, they love it, but my SIL is now 10 minutes away and has a key to their house. Surely I am not out of line for feeling like I need more space than that? Or if I back away from extended family get togethers there, will that make her feel more power and be more aggressive?

[CC43]

Hi Blessed,

If you’d prefer no contact, I’d say that instead of visiting at your MIL’s place, she come visit you, provided that she can travel. Or you might travel together to a vacation spot, just with her and your family. Maybe your husband could attend larger family events on his own, while you stay home with the kids. That might be a reasonable compromise that keeps the peace. How does that sound?  Maybe you make exceptions only for critical events like weddings and funerals, where there are usually many people that could act as a buffer. Does that make sense?

[Notwendy]

You can choose to go NC and for some people, that is the right choice. When I was in college, a counselor (I did seek out student counseling at the time) suggested I go NC with my mother- the counselor understood the situation. I actually tried it but it didn't last long because I didn't want to go NC with my father. They were a pair and he also enabled her and so it wasn't possible to have contact with just him. Any contact with him included contact with her.

Each person's situation is different- and BPD is on a spectrum and relationships are different. I had  boundaries with my kids with her- she wasn't alone with them. However, she is also invested in the identity of "grandmother" and so doesn't act up around them. Where it got difficult is when they became adolescents and useful to her. At their age, she began to enlist me as her emotional catetaker and when I saw that she was attempting to do this with them, I had to have different boundaries.

She knew to not act up in front of them, like your SIL does, because, if she did, I would not have allowed her to be around the kids at all. I think protecting children is the priority- and that may mean NC is necessary. However, I didn't say anything to my mother about the boundary- she would have dissociated and it wouldn't have helped. Although we didn't discuss it, BPD mother knew better than to be overtly verbally abusive to my kids, but she is manipulative with people. Still, she held it together enough for my kids to have a relationship with my father.

To be clear- I don't hate her. I do care about her well being but it isn't reciprocal.  We also don't have the typical mother- child bond. The PD's can overlap and she has NPD traits, and so doesn't seem to have empathy and her focus is on her own feelings and needs. She doesn;t show maternal behavior. Dad took on most of the parenting and so naturally, a child would have the child-parent bond with him. He also was more of the involved grandparent with my children.

Family dynamics changed when my father passed away. At the time, BPD mother was angry at me. Similarly to your sister's texts- the verbal "discard". She also wrote me out of some of her papers- so I think she disowned me but then later she changed her mind. She also told her family members to not speak to me and so they didn't- and we became estranged for a while. I could have gone NC at this time. I don't think she'd have cared if I did.

By this time though, she was becoming elderly and now a widow. I was grieving the loss of what was to me, emotionally, my only parent. It didn't seem OK to cut contact with an elderly widowed mother and also I don't know if it was something I felt I could do.  I decided that LC was the better choice for me.

Sometimes NC is the right choice but it becomes complicated if the person you want to avoid is connected to a person you want to have contact with, and if that person is involved in an enabling situation, they might facilitate the contact. I might want to meet up with my father only but he'd have me include my mother.

From what you described about your in laws- it seems they are likely to side with your SIL. For you to make the decision to go NC- it may backfire. Before you do anything- read about the Karpman triangle. Having boundaries with my mother resulted in my father aligning with my mother as her "rescuer" and they both were angry at me. You say your in laws are in denial. If you make an overt decision that there is something wrong with your SIL- this could be perceived as threatening to them. They may side with your SIL to protect her.

Still your priority is protecting your kids. How do you do this? First of all- I would not say anything to your in laws or your SIL. You assume your in laws will understand but if they are in denial, it's likely they won't. So rather than talk about your boundary- you take action. Next time there's a chance to visit- you say "I'd love to see you, and we'd like to invite you here". Or, you visit and say "we have an airbnb". Say nothing about SIL. It will get back to her.

Once I was at my parents' house and BPD mother started with her verbal abuse to me. I didn't say anything. I picked up my bag and said "I need to get home soon" and left. She eventually got the message. "I am willing to visit you but I am not willing to listen to this". If you are visiting in laws and SIL shows up- you stay calm and see how it goes. If she gets verbally abusive, then you say calmly "we need to go now" and you leave.

So you have your boundaries but you don't make a declaration of NC or explain yourself. That is likely to cause a big reaction and rift in the family and put you in the "persecutor" position and probably not have the results you want. Boundaries are for us, not the other person. If you visit your in laws, you can't control what your SIL does. It's possible she will show up. Your boundary is "no verbal or emotional abuse" and what action you will take if she does this.

[CC43]

PS, I agree with Notwendy and I wouldn’t explain any of the thought process behind your boundaries, as it could be interpreted as criticism or blame, things that enrage pwBPD. Just do it—book a hotel. Have your husband show up to family gatherings and explain that the kids had a conflict or something. Say you don’t want to inconvenience anyone. You be the hostess to grandparents. If you are pressed, you could say that your work and school schedules have become complicated. You’re busy in summertimes with camps and gardening. Or an anodyne excuse:  We have a conflict that weekend. We have a prior commitment!

[Notwendy]

Yes, and to add- this isn't about the pwBPD- it's not trying to keep them from getting angry or managing their feelings. We can not control another person's feelings.

It's about doing what is effective, and also being mindful of the larger picture- the family dynamics.

When there is a disordered family member- it has an effect on the whole family. Families will "balance" themselves with the other family members taking on roles to maintain this balance. The other family members aren't necessarily disordered but they may take on roles that are dysfunctional but functional within the family system.

Some of these behaviors can include denial, rescuing, and behaving according to the Karpman triangle.

I wasn't aware of this and was suprised at how my family reacted to my having boundaries with BPD mother. My usual role had been as scapegoat child and also another "rescuer" caretaker. I was not aware that these behaviors were dysfunctional- these were "normal" roles in our family. The family pattern was to maintain that BPD mother's behavior is normal. I was also expected to tolerate her emotional and verbal abuse.

When I stepped out of this role- and had boundaries, it had a wider impact. Dad got angry at me, my mother's family stopped speaking to me. When one family member steps away from their expected role- it puts the entire family off balance. Their first reaction is to try to get the family member back into their role. If this does't work, they may then rearrange themselves into a new pattern and reject the family member.

You may find that your in laws react to your boundaries in a unexpected way. If you can not take this as personally and don't react emotionally (which can escalate things) it will help you not feel as hurt by this.

I still stand by the boundaries. My first priority is my children. I didn't want to have to be in a position to either please my parents or protect my children. To me, it was obvious- protect my children.

Talking about issues or concerns does not work with my BPD mother. She sees it as a personal attack or criticism. She dissociates. So not speaking about the boundaries isn't to avoid her anger but because it just doesn't work because she perceives it as being hurtful to her. That isn't my intent. 

I don't know where your H stands with this situation but if he's conflicted or wavering, it's not because he doesn't love you or the kids. He grew up in this and so it's been his "normal" even if he sees his sister has BPD.

I absolutely support your need to protect your kids but also be aware of possible reactions from other family members.

[sweetlyblessed]

Great points CC43 and Notwendy about not giving reasons. Unfortunately we had already told my MIL that we don’t really feel safe around her at this point. Btw this actually is my BIL’s wife, not my husband and MIL’s immediate family member. We will nonchalantly have an unrelated reason to do all the things we need to do from here on.

We may try to attend the full family gathering, then leave and not stay there at night- do I need to worry that she could rage out and grab a knife and come at me, or my kids to hurt me? She did lose custody of her son for a while when he was young, but we don’t know why. How likely is it that they act violent and attack people? I won’t engage her of course, but she is a very jealous person and could become enraged by something I am not directly doing

[CC43]

Hi Blessed,

Unfortunately, there's no way to be sure your SIL won't become violent.  My thinking is, if she's really that prone to violence, she would have threatened someone before, and she'd be reprimanded and/or be subject to a restraining order.  You might think, only you can incite her rage, but if your SIL has BPD, I'm willing to bet that she's been jealous and angry many, many times before, and that you aren't the only person who provokes her wrath.  You just happen to be one of the people she's angry with at the moment.

I guess I'm one of those people who doesn't live in fear, and if someone goes crazy and tries to pull something dangerous, I'll have a cell phone handy to dial 911.  Maybe you would feel comfortable in certain situations, like always having your husband close to you when you expect to encounter your SIL.  Maybe you decide to shield your kids and prevent them from being in any situation where she might show up.  Maybe you decide to attend only events in public spaces (like restaurants), where it would probably be less likely for her to act out in public, or have access to a weapon.  If you are really distressed by her, then I'd say, just stay away, because you won't enjoy anything if you're truly frightened at a gathering.

All my best to you.